BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid

Subject: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,open mike
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM

I do not see a thread on this yet..
today i heard news reports about a
Latter Day Saints Cult (Mormon)
which was apparently practicing
multiple marriages with some under
aged "wives" involved. An emergency
phone call alerted authorities to
problems, and many children have
been removed and mahy women have
left the area. I think the members
had moved to Texas from Utah when
they got in troubel with the law
there.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

Laurel, there have been references to it on this thread and also here
but it possibly deserves a thread that can't be just diverted into into other issues or just turn the page over

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:42 PM

Because.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:22 PM

This has the clearer title, but I'm not going to repeat myself. There has been a lot of discussion of this on other threads.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:47 PM

Thread 34518, Polygamy.
Polygamy

Bountiful, British Columbia, has had a colony for many years. The Mounted Police investigated briefly in 2006, but no prosecutions.
It is unclear whether prohibition of polygamy in Canada is legal under current statutes.
Merchants in the nearby town of Creston consider them to be good, reliable customers.
Bountiful is listed at about 1000 members in the commune.

Some Muslims in the Toronto-Ottawa regions are said to maintain polygamous marriages (four wives permitted) according to Alia Hogben, executive director of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women.

(Some of this posted in another thread recently)

Not pertinent, but at the bottom of this thread Google has put the adv. "Wives in Utah," "These Local Wives Like to Play Around...With You? Join for Free!" Have you clicked on it?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

My Google ads, this time:

"See Mormon Personal Ads"

"Polygamy Personals"

I suppose there's someting for everyone on the internet...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

There are, I understand, polygamist families around here. They keep low and don't involve underage people.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

The issue with the FLDS is that the girls do not have a choice whether they are married or not and to whom. They do not have a choice whether they want to get pregnant or not.
Robert Jay Lifton is an excellent source of information on groups like this. He studied the POW's coming back from North Korea, as we saw behavior in those POW's that at the time was called brainwashing. The term used now is thought reform or mind control. The groups doing this are totalistic groups. Lifton's criteria that identify such groups can be read here:


http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria


Not all 8 criteria are necessary for a group to be totalistic.

The FLDS group has a rare form of retardation created by the inbreeding. You can read about it here at wikipedia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumarase_deficiency


Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

"The groups doing this are totalistic groups. Lifton's criteria that identify such groups can be read here:
...
Not all 8 criteria are necessary for a group to be totalistic."


hmmm.. #3, 5, 6, AND 8 would apply to many discussions here on Mudcat... global warming, anything political...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM

There is no leader on Mudcat forcing people to believe a doctrine. People are free to express their opinion. If you feel you have a minority opinion, that does not mean someone is forcing you to change your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:03 PM

I find that people have a great deal of trouble understanding the concepts of thought reform, mind control and totalistic groups - and tolerance.

Many do not know how to draw the line between a benign unusual group or belief and a totalistic group using mind control that damages or endangers others.
As an evolving race, we are trying to provide worldwide "human rights".
If you can understand that concept, then you need to recognize there is a line drawn between the right to believe something and the right to be free of being damaged or controlled physically or psychologically.

Yes, we have rights, but human rights means there is a limit to what someone can do to another person. Although we still have things in the world like slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, honor killing, that does not mean people can be allowed to do these actions based on their religious belief. One must learn to understand what tolerance is. Tolerance does not mean allowing rape and slavery because someone says it is part of their religion.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Alice:

Social ostracism, verbal abuse, being made fun of, put into the "less than human " catagory, ... seems a lot like the same pressures that other totalitarian groups use.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

Bruce, when humiliation is allowed, personal attacks, etc., I agree that this is a tool of totalism. It is part of the "us vs. them", and I am glad that the clones say they will try to control this. It can be hard to have a minority opinion in a group. You are right that totalistic groups either force out those who do not agree or pressure them until they conform. I do think Mudcat is full of opinions, we are a group that likes to discuss our opinions, but hopefully the attacks will not be tolerated.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

The Hutterite (Anabaptist) colonies in Western Canada and U. S. ostracize anyone who leaves the colony; parents and colony members are barred from contacting them (of course some do) and I have seen Hutterite parents break into tears when they remember a son or daughter who left and can be seen only secretly and rarely.
In Alberta, Hutterite children are educated approximately to 9th grade level, within the colony, and taught English and a form of low German; the few that break away are thus restricted in the jobs they can do. Television, musical instruments, personal cars, etc. are barred.

Within the colonies, some individuals have taught themselves (or in a colony apprentice system) to be computer-savvy as well as skilled in a trade; these individuals operate colony commercial automated poultry raising, service and repair expensive equipment, built farm structures and family living quarters and install subfloor heating, etc., etc. The colony I have visited often is up to date in many ways.
The women mostly are skilled in making clothes and cooking, taking care of flocks and gardening; they do not operate major machinery such as combines, and are not permitted to drive.

Music outside the church is not permitted, thus popular and folk music is non-existent- but the young often sneak away to nearby farms of non-Hutterites, and some know an amazing amount about current movies and pop songs.
The adults themselves also sneak away when in town and see a film, or go to a non-Hutterian farm and watch television. They are always on the lookout for books- the women go through romance novels, the men like instructional materials or factual magazines like Nat. Geographic. Perhaps a few more generations and they will change or perhaps not.

A colony or two in the States, and I think one in Manitoba, are said to have abandoned the rigorous separation from our type of life, and seem to be regarded as beyond the pale, but I don't know any members from these wayward colonies, so know very little about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

We have Hutterites in Montana, Q. They raise excellent produce and livestock. They sell it at our local farmer's market and food co-op. I've had them come over to my art booth in the past at the farmer's market and chat with me, the girls and women. I had a penny whistle with me one day, and a girl came over and asked me if I could play "Golden Slippers". The ones living near us must have more freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM

The Hutterites mention a colony in Montana that is relatively open, but I am not familiar with those outside of Alberta.
Hutterites do like to talk, subjects much like those of any other farming group, but one stays away from topics that would upset them. They have a store of jokes, many pc, garnered in town or neighboring farms, that is unlimited.

It should be remembered that the bulk of the members go along with the 'totalitarian' ways- just nibble at the edges, as it were. They do not seem to tell tales on one another, not talking about minor indidcretions.

sThe colony I know best- I won't name it- is pretty well off. A sort of 'dividend' is paid to each family, which is used for personal items. A toaster-oven for the kitchen (meals are communal, but snacks, coffee, etc are made in the home), more goodies are made communally than can be consumed in the dining hall and there is always something for guests and talk. A popular item, not talked about when the boss is around because forbidden, is a digital camera; another is a radio and small tv, if they can get a signal, again forbidden but kept in the basement area, out of sight of the 'boss.'

The 'boss' of the colony I visit, I think, knows what is going on but doesn't interfere unless it is a serious matter. Strict, but knows when not to make an issue of something relatively minor. He is not a 'king,' but has been selected for the position.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:43 PM

Back to the thread topic, there is a good article in a Utah paper about this called "A Tainted Womb".


Daily Utah Chronicle

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

The student who wrote the opinion makes his point, but separation from the mother may exacerbate the mental upsets.

Do the mothers agree with the treatment accorded by the 'fathers'? Is it a general failure of these colonies that the young are mistreated? Are all the men at fault or just a few? I don't know.

From the articles I have read, it seems that a few men are responsible in the colonies so far raided; if so, separation of children and mothers seems draconian.
It seems to me a case by case examination would be better. But without details, I repeat, "I don't know."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:34 PM

Child Protective Services works on a case by case basis. But the children do not all know who their natural mother is, so it will take time to sort that out. They call all the women mother who are married to their father.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:46 PM

This is a you tube video of a film recently made called "Damned to Heaven". The sound of Warren Jeff's voice is narrating. Women and men talk about what happened to their children and to themselves in the FLDS cult.

Damned To Heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:46 PM

Ummmm, not to be sounding unsypathetic but I'd like to know ehat the olther girls think... Seems to me that everone was well dressed---okay, not my style of clothes mind you, but clean... The compound loooked weel kept... Not exactlty Charles Manson's farm....

I ain't prejudgeing here and will wait until more facts come in but this bust does arouse my libertarian suspiscions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1cTk2cJQac

Sorry, more direct link


Damned To Heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:05 PM

So it is ok to rape a 14 year old as long as you give her clean clothes?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:30 PM

15 year old running away from FLDS
telephone conversation and video
corrected link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xPJPHIx590

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:36 PM

The most recent story in the Dallas Morning News says 416 children and 139 adult women were removed from the colony. Siblings are being encouraged to stay together.
The girl who called a family violence center has not yet been identified, and may have been spirited out, or may be too scared to come forward.
Some details of the formation of the group have been ascertained. In 2003-2004, Jeffs, the leader, took children under the age of six from the Utah-Arizona colonies and brought them to Texas without their parents, according to a former sect member (who has 38 siblings). Most of the children have never attended public school. Most seem to be the children of the 'inner circle,' including Jeffs. Birth records, etc. found at the site may help social workers to sort the children. A hearing Apr. 17 will apparently determine if the children remain in custody or are returned to Eldorado.
Medical and educational needs are being assessed. About 500 volunteers are working with the children and female parents who left the colony with them.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D90002100.htm
Story by Jennifer Dobner, Associated Press, 04/12/2008

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

Interview of former FLDS member.
"Inside Warren Jeff's World"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RV4fKtKp0

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:50 PM

And all those 'wonderful clean clothes' were sewn by hand by the mothers. Does that mean it's OK to 'marry off' a girl of 13 and keep her pregnant the rest of her life?

Please, folks, read some of the books by the escaped wives. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:56 PM

Banking on Heaven
video First woman says, "I spent 17 years being beat by my mother cause I wouldn't be obedient to my Father. And he wanted me in his bed. I never will back down."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM

Listen to Banking On Heaven, above link. Voting as a block to take over county government. Welfare income because the mother's that are not legally married claim welfare for their children. Corruption and abuse, see the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:06 PM

You can order the full documentary of Banking on Heaven at
http://www.bankingonheaven.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:14 PM

Q, I don't CARE if the Hutterites 'seem' OK to you. Or if any 'other' polygamous sect/cult seems 'OK' to you. What is going on inside the Warren Jeffs cult is evil. Pure, unfathomable evil to me.

A 'father' held a crying infant's head under running water to 'teach' it to be silent while another 'mother' held the infants birth mother. This is OK? Just one incident among many. Read the books. Watch the videos.


Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM

I did not say that the Hutterites were polygamous. I did not say that this polygamous sect seemed OK. Jeffs needs to be stopped. You are inventing a position for me. You obviously have poor reading ability and your autonomic nervous system needs tranquilizers.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:10 AM

Underground Polygamy Railroad Fawn & Fawn Run!
Interview of 16 year old girls escaping.
Interview of mother trying to keep her 16 year old
daughter from being given to a an older man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonSp_Lmjrk

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:02 AM

Bobert,

I'm surprised! You should know better than to assume that sexual abuse does not happen to women who are well dressed and well fed. In fact, Bobert, sexual abuse happens across the socio-economic spectrum. I can't believe you said what you did.

Tell me I misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:45 AM

OK, then, Q, I'm sorry. I thought that was what you 'seemed' to be implying. I was wrong. No reason to insult me though.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 04:36 AM

Q whether someone agrees with you or not, whether they understand you or have missinterpreted something you wrote there is no excuse for pouring out such vitriolic personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:31 AM

Woe down there, ladies...

I ain't condoning sexual abuse or rape.... The kinda behavior is the worst sin I can think of 'cuase it mars a woman for life...


Maybe I'm just not glued 24/7 to the TV so maybe there is alot of "factual" evidence that I am not aware and in that case... I've just become paranoid of the media... Especially after the the mad-dash-to-Iraq...

If sexual abuse occured then I'm glad alll these girls are now safe but my gut feeling is that there is more the story than meeats the eye...

Think Ruby Ridge here...

I don't know...

I'll try to get bettyer informed but, for God's sake, I do not condone sexual misconduct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

Some good news from 'The Children of Diversity' aka The Lost Boys of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ("FLDS")

Beginning in 2002 the FLDS church began exiling young men between the ages of 14 and 23 for infractions that were in violation of church tenets. These infractions could be talking to a girl, wearing a short sleeved t-shirt, listening to music or watching television.
Former members claim that the real reason for these 'excommunications' is that there are not enough women for each male to receive three or more wives as dictated by their beliefs in order to be 'glorified in heaven'

On March 20th this year the six young men who brought the "Lost Boys" lawsuit against Warren Jeffs and the FLDS Church filed court papers to voluntarily dismiss their case as they had met their goals

Those objectives included -
wresting control of the trust from church leaders - FLDS parents who didn't give in to Church control and expel their sons or marry their daughters when commanded risked losing their homes.

ousting some members of the police department in the church-controlled border towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah - who acted as "little more than the Church's private security force."

helping law enforcement locate victims of child abuse willing
to testify against Jeffs - Jeffs was tried and convicted in Utah last September for his role in facilitating the rape of a 14-year-old and is now awaiting trial in Arizona on additional charges.

to pass legislation making it illegal to abandon minors by intentionally causing parents to kick their children out of their homes - The Child and Family Protection Act was passed this year by the Utah Legislature making possible the criminal prosecution of Church leaders who make parents choose between their religion and their children
details here

Walter Fischer, one of the Lost Boy plaintiffs stated, "The only thing left to do is to go after money and this case has never been about that."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:10 AM

'If sexual abuse occured then I'm glad alll these girls are now safe'

Unfortunately bobert it's just not that simple.... think instead Short Creek.

'COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — Horrified by stories of rape, incest and men taking young girls as brides, the new governor of Arizona quietly made plans to invade this polygamist settlement in the summer of 1953.

By day's end, families and crying children were separated in a scene that would haunt political leaders for years to come. In all, 36 men were arrested. Authorities loaded 86 women and 263 children aboard buses to Phoenix.

C.D. Tyra, 86, a former highway patrolman who took part in the raid, recalled encountering a girl, about 8. She showed off her new patent leather shoes, which Tyra noticed were actually well-worn and stuffed with cardboard to make them fit.

"She was so proud of those shoes," he recalled.

"Then my partner Frank said to me, 'How would you feel if that was your little girl and she was going to get married that night?' That really got me."

BUT the public was angrier at the state than at the polygamists.

Arizona Gov. J. Howard Pyle, a Republican, took to the radio, saying "the foulest conspiracy you could imagine" was underway in the community. He said there had been wholesale abuse and enslavement of children, especially girls who were forced into a "shameful mockery of marriage."

"Here is a community dedicated to the wicked theory that every maturing girl child should be forced into bondage of multiple wifehood with men of all ages for the sole purpose of producing more children to be reared to become more chattels of this totally lawless enterprise," he told the radio audience.

As sympathy built for the FLDS, Pyle was denounced and ridiculed by newspaper editorials. The raid was called "Pyle's Folly."

The raid's results were meager in court as well. Charges of statutory rape and contributing to the delinquency of a minor were dropped. The men pleaded guilty to conspiracy to violate laws against bigamy, and open and notorious cohabitation. One-year suspended sentences were handed out. Many promptly returned to Short Creek with their families.

For years, the raid was memorialized each July with speeches and parades. Town officials erected a monument to the event.'

from Los Angeles Times, USA
May 12, 2006

Don't let history repeat itself here.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

At least the leader Warren Jeffs is in prison, but I agree, Emma, the girls and boys and wives are not yet safe.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Some things is real messes up, that much is fir sure...

Ummmmmm, I my concern is two-fold... First there is abuse and second there is liberty... I lived briefly in a commune in the 60's and we were viewed by many locals as "evil" though there was no alcohol allowed, no physical violence allowed (which would include sexual abuse) and for the most part folks there just wanted to be left alone... But to the many of the young townies we were the enemy...

This is where liberty comes into play... Certina cultures continue to arrange marriages and in those cultures the divorce rate is lower than the US's genaral rate??? I donno???

I think when we try to gentrify culture we have gone too far...

I will try to become better informed about the Texas case but if there were, say, 500 people living there and half a dozen of them were bad people than, by inlarge, that smapling is purdy peaceful compared to the population on the whole... Like I said, I'll trym to get mote info but my initial ***reaction*** and yes, it is just that, that if there were a dozen bad apples then why punish the entire group... Juts get the bad apples??? Ain't that what law enforcment does everywhere else???

I donno... Something just bugs me when an entire group of folks get rounded up and, in essence, detained... Lotta the piocures I've seen are of some very nomrmal looking people... BTW, I live in Mennonite country so seeing folks dressed in, what some folks would say is funny, is normal around here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

It has already been proven in court that the group has institutionalized rape of minor girls. That is why the leader is in prison.
Look at what I wrote above. Having unusual clothes or culture has NOTHING to do with this. You're not getting the point, bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM

I think many people are missing the point. There are laws to deal with shit like that. ENFORCE THE LAW! If men are 'interfering' with young children--I'm old enough to think of anyone under the age of 30 as young--then throw the trash in jail, get counselling for the kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

And a question I have regarding this: has there been concomitant abuse of male children?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Bobert, would you have said the same thing about Jim Jones and his followers? It is about mind control and power over all congregates. What Jeffs says is essentially the word of god to ALL members and anyone who dares to question that will be punished, in most cases, quite severely. This is not a question of a few hippies living off the land, playing folk music or whatever. This has a long history, over 100 years, and has been a dirty little secret for too long in this country.

I was married, for three years, to a regular LDS member. I warned him if they came to my house to try to convert me, I would meet them at the door with a shotgun. They did not bother me. The control his older brother had over him eventually took him away from me and his stepchildren and daughter, when she was just a baby. I am grateful it got me out of that marriage in a short time.

Even regular LDS are extremely patriarchal and must be obeyed, esp. by their women. I have a Mormon cousin who had something like 13 kids. His wife's heart was dying, yet he impregnated her, again, and sure enough, just as the docs predicted, she died giving birth to the last child, born prematurely because mom's heart was done in. I despise my cousin for doing that to his wife and was angry for a long time at her, even though I'd never met her, for allowing him to do that to her. But, when I thought about how she was raised, it was no surprise and reminded me of why I have a prejudice against patriarchal religious people.

In the hospital where I worked, in a community of regular LDS, we used to joke about having to let Mormon fathers in the delivery room so they could start making the next baby once that one was delivered. It's what they expect of their women. Remember this is "mainstream" LDS. In that same hospital, I watched as a woman's uterus fell out of her body, prolapsed because it couldn't hold in any more babies, it was so worn out and had lost its elasticity. THAT baby was born at 7 months, barely able to survive and do you know what the docs had to do because the woman's husband insisted and she had to go along with it? They stitched her uterus back up inside her, rather than perform a hysterectomy because her husband wanted to be sure they could have more babies! She was in her 30s.

Then there was the man whose wife and children were on vacation in Salt Lake City. He lost her and, I think it was five of his children, to a car accident. It was a terrible shock to the whole community. Six months later, he was already remarried to a woman who had her own children and who immediately became pregnant by him, so he could perpetuate his duties or whatever they call it.

Bobert, those were all so-called mainstream Mormons. Multiply that kind of control, etc. a hundredfold and more and you might get an inkling of what it is like for the women and children of FLDS. They may have organic, fresh food and nice cotton clothing, but those are just trappings. I do not use the word "evil" lightly when I say there is evil deep down in those communities and the few who try to fight it have horrendous stories to tell. Please do not doubt their veracity nor the authorities who have believed in them.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM

Bruce, all the children are raised to fear anyone not of FLDS, beatings are normal, forced labor in the fields at a young age, no education except the FLDS doctrine, no books, living in fear that they may do something wrong. Boys reaching puberty are often turned out because the older men see them as competition for the girls for brides. See the Lost Boys.

Here is a web site of a young woman who escaped FLDS.

http://outofpolygamy.com/

That site may help answer some questions for people who do not understand the abuse in FLDS.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Read what that lady wrote (kat). She's right!

Sexual 'slavery' however ya dress it up is still sexual slavery. Hell, let's make up some bloody religion and have one of the tenets be "Children must be chained work stations until they have filled their 'production quota' or reach the age of twenty-one. GOD demands this. It has been revealed!

I would have no problem killing any person who tried to subject my daughter(s) to that kind of treatment. Not in the name of religion, economics--in fact not for any reason whatsoever. However, that is easy for me to conceptualize because I wasn't told from the time I was born that "that is the way things are". The 'problem' (more like a travesty of anything that resembles justice) is ingrained. For example, the law in Alberta states that children will remain in school until they are 16 years old. Hutterites remove their children on their 15th birthday. The government does nothing--turns a blind eye. Why? Because it's easier than doing something. I guess they 'fear' the backlash of these various religious idiots who create self-serving religious credos and then 'go forth' to carry out those credos regardless the consequences to kids or families. This then falls back on main-stream society to get off its collective ass and FORCE laws to be enforced. Is it gonna happen? IMO, best not to hold yer breath on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Here is a case of abuse of an FLDS boy.
Justice for Johnny

http://outofpolygamy.com/justiceforjohnny.html

quote
Justice for Johnny
My little brother John William Nicholson attended Alta Academy while Warren Jeffs was headmaster. My brother was in the same grade and class with Brent Jeffs, the young man who publicly accused Warren Jeffs, Leslie Jeffs and Blaine Jeffs of sodomizing and molesting him at Alta Academy. end quote

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

Thanks, Alice. Just opened this thread for the first time. The situation is disgusting.