BS: Is it safe to drive...

Subject: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

When a muslim woman wears a burkha ? In UK motor cyclists have to remove their helmets when buying fuel for their bikes, but do these women have to remove their burkhas?

I find this interesting too. and also this . If we go to their countries, we have to abide by their laws and customs, so why don't they here.

Does this not mean anything anymore?

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

Sal. i personally don't like the burka as it has been used as a symbol of opression of women in other cultures.

In our society it has been argued that the women who adopt this dress voluntarily are adopting the ideal of modesty that to some extent has been ingrained in them by male religious authority (and no doubt by female authorities, too), but.....

they are doing so on their own terms!

Either way, as far as I'm aware, it is not against the law to wear one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

"so why don't they here. "

Because our laws don't force them to! We had a series of rather nasty wars in the 16th and 17th centuries and then lengthy civil campaigns to give us the religious and civil freedoms we enjoy today. Those freedoms include the right to dress differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: GUEST,LTs pretending to work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

I have no arguments with what people choose to wear for whatever reason, but having almost been run down on a pedestrian crossing by a woman wearing a burka that allowed the minimum of visiblity - by which I mean it barely exposed her eyes, you have to wonder how long it's going to be before one of these garments is to blame for an injury due to restricted visibility.

As for motorcyclists - you don't have to remove your helmet to purchase fuel - you are requested to remove it if you enter the kiosk to pay, but if you use the 'pay at pump' option, you can get out without even raising your visor.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:32 AM

AHa!! I see my husband is also hard at work!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

I find this statement from the link very funny: "The UK is a Christian Country with Christian mores, the UK is tolerant beyond belief for alternative religions and beliefs. Fit in or get out"

Doesn't sound all that tolerant to me.

I don't have a problem with it. It comes down to the issue of safety, I think. If someone wearing a burkha is able to demonstrate that they hwve full visibility I wouldn't think that wearing it while driving is an issue.

Amish women often wear deep, black bonnets. If they were to drive cars (which they don't) I'm sure they'd have to remove them. The burkha appears to be different. The bonnets are just as visible and perhaps just as disturbing to the "tolerant beyond belief" people as burkhas.

Rodney King: Can't we all just get along?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:54 AM

Freedom of speech , and to dress how you like is all very well , but there are a LOT of people who have come into U K who seem to want US to change OUR way of life to conform with THEIR extremist (In many cases) way of life !

Sits back and waits to be called a racist !

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

Absolutely Mr. Leadfingers, who's country is it anyway?

Sal (lights blue touch paper and hides behind setee)









(incidently [thread creep] I have a friend who is a monster on Dr. Who)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

'Tis a touchy subject. On the one hand, I think it would be absolutely immoral to insist that anyone abandon harmless religious or cultural customs merely for the sake of "assimilation". On the other hand, businesses do have a compelling interest in being able to easily ascertain the identities of those who enter their premises. (My bank won't even allow male customers to wear baseball caps.)

Personally, if I were a Muslim woman who felt adamantly that wearing the burkha was an essential part of my belief system, I would be willing to make some sacrifices for my decision. If I were to insist on adhering to ancient practices that may conflict with the interests of a modern world, I would understand that I may not be able to fully avail myself of everything that world has to offer. My decision, my sacrifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

We haven't had this problem to any extent yet in the US - at least on the northeastern boonies where I live. But I wonder, since the Klu Klux Klan regalia is illegal in many states, and it differs from the burkha mostly in color, how the law would make the distinction if the question were to come up.

I would certainly agree that unrestricted vision and hearing are legitimate issues if one is going to drive a car. Same as driving a car with a cell phone.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

'Whose country is it anyway?'

Britain is and has always been a mixed race society. Early in 'our' history we were invaded by Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Norman armies and later Africans were brought to Britain by force in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries as slaves or servants.

Over the years, thousands of people have arrived in Britain as refugees from France, Ireland, Russia, and other countries, escaping from persecution or famine in their own countries.

There are British people whose parents first came to Britain in the 1950s and 1960s from the Caribbean, India, Pakistan, Hong Kong and other places to work in the recovering post-war economy.

Timelines -

1100s Merchants from Netherlands and settle

1500s Queen Mary marries Philip of Spain

Dutch and French Protestants settle

1600s Asians brought to England as Slaves
1700s Refugees from the French revolution (1789) arrive

First records of Chinese sailors in London

1800s Jewish arrivals fleeing persecution in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus.

Irish settlers escaping poverty during the famine in Ireland.

Trade brings Indian and Chinese people to main ports

Jews flee to UK from Russia and Poland

1900s
1914 - More than 250,000 Belgian refugees fled to the UK, escaping the fighting of the First World War.

1930s - Refugees from Nazi oppression arrive in the UK

1940 - 1960 - Polish people homeless because of the War, invited to come to UK

1948 - The boat Windrush brings 492 Jamaicans to the UK – thousands more follow
Immigration from Caribbean encouraged to help rebuild post-war Britain

1950s and 60s - Settlers from other new Commonwealth nations arrive – India, Pakistan and Bangladesh

Who are the 'THEIR'?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Zen
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

Freedom of speech , and to dress how you like is all very well , but there are a LOT of people who have come into UK who seem to want US to change OUR way of life to conform with THEIR extremist (In many cases) way of life !

Quite a few of those extremists seem to have been born in the UK according to recent news reports.

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM

Many banks have a sign at the door saying, "Please remove your hats and sunglasses."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:55 PM

Banks do that? Man. I am glad that I live in an isolated city. All we have is a sign at supermarket entries saying, Please remove snow cleats before entering store."

lol

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

Emma - Do YOU want to live under Sharia Law ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

I see this discussion going in three very different directions: is it physically safe for individuals to wear the burka while driving, is it acceptable for women wearing the burka to be asked to remove enough of it to verify their identities, and it is appropriate to tolerate the burka at all. For the first, I would say not and, in most places where it is worn regularly (Saudi Arabia, for example), women are forbidden to drive anyway. For the second, I think banks and such should be allowed to establish appropriate procedures and the "equal rights" people should keep their noses out of it (fat chance!). For the third, who gives a rats ass if they want to wear it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

AH! so the 'THEIR' are Muslims? well you could have just said so!

Quite a few of these 'usual' Islamaphobe scare stories have been circulating since the Archbishop of Canterburys speech earlier this year

A few facts........

The Muslim population of the UK is about 2.8% of the total population although it constitutes the second largest religion.

Sharia covers a lot of very mundane and banal daily issues where observant Muslims want to ensure they act within the legal framework of their faith.

Sharia courts exist in both the Muslim world and in the Western world where Muslim communities have established Sharia courts to largely deal with family or business disputes.

The key issues are family law, finance and business. In practice many Muslims do turn to Sharia guidance for many of these day-to-day matters, particularly family disputes in the same way that Jewish communities have long-established religious community courts in the UK.
These Jewish "courts" are legally recognised in English law as a means for warring parties to agree to arbitration as opposed to the more usual adversarial British system.
The UK law sees this as a practical way of helping people to resolve their differences in their own way, without clogging up the local courts.

In two important areas British law has already incorporated religious legal considerations. British food regulations allow meat to be slaughtered according to Jewish and Islamic practices - a touchstone issue for both communities.

Secondly, the Treasury has approved Sharia-compliant financial products such as mortgages and investments. Islam forbids interest on the basis that it is money unjustly earned. These products are said by supporters to meet the needs of modern life in a way that fits the faith.

In Canada experts considered establishing Sharia-related family courts to ease the burden on civil courts - but said these would have to observe the basic human rights guarantees of Canadian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

In Canuckville, the courts have decided that some teenage boys may carry their killing dagger to school because of their religion. And, some recent immigrants want their trials to be held in a religious court within their own "community" rather than in the Canadian courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

Health and safety must come first and I cannot imagine that wearing a burka when driving is any safer than eating an apple, and that is not allowed.
We've certainly got some contradictory ways in the UK. I've heard of toddlers being banned from shopping centres because they were wearing a hood! I'd have never been able to shop because when my children were young - they loved having their hoods up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:03 PM

To get back on topic, the vision provided by a burka is roughly the same as that of a modern motor cycle helmet according to this letter from a motor cyclist in The Idependent.....

Sir: Mr Wedgwood (letters 15, September) may or may not be a racist. However, in trying to explain erratic driving by implying that the driver's vision was impaired because she was "attempting to see through a slot 3cm by 9cm in her burka", he is unobservant. I drive a motorcycle; my head is covered by a helmet and I look through the 11cm by 4cm slot defined by my glasses. Like the burka, they are immediately in front of my eyes and do not restrict my vision at all.

Sam Richmond

East Boldon, Tyne and Wear

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:05 PM

Can motorcyclists drive safely with their helmets on?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

Motorcycle Helmet

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: GUEST,Wolfy
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM

I am a tribalist and not a racist. I had to protect myself through my school years from the racist taunts and violence of "Islamic people". I have been kicked, beaten and stabbed by them and not protected from them by my teachers because they were afraid to be called racist….My father and grandfather fought to uphold our culture, freedom and traditions. This present generation mocks their sacrifice…..I DO NOT EXPECT TO SEE BURQAS OR MOSQUES IN MY COUNTRY…

Well I am sick of these cultures destroying my own. When I walk the streets in MY country I do not feel safe when near hoodies. I also do not feel safe near pillar boxes (burqa wearers).. Anything can be concealed beneath these things they wear. If they wanna bring their own culture here then we should not let them into the country.


Don't tell me I am a racist!    Try living as a Christian in their country, then you will know what racism is….. For sure!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM

I am sure that accommodations can be made for safety. If they are required. Plenty of people cause accidents without wearing burkhas. At least, if they are devout Muslims, you know they haven't been drinking.

The "disguise" issue is more complex. If people start robbing banks and stores wearing burkhas, then burkha wearers will probably be banned from shopping and banking.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:20 PM

Fair comment Jack.

The problem of 'security' is a very real one especially at passport controls or the possibility of deception when voting.

I admire the Canadian principles of 'Reasonable accommodation' but recently the latter situation has caused some dispute in Quebec Province.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

I also feel uneasy when faced with groups of youths in hoodies although in my experience they are usually young white males. I also find that the people that make the most fuss about'their' country and 'their' religion haven't seen the inside of a church since they were christened. Since when was eating an apple illegal? As to whether wearing a burkha, or any other headgear whilst driving, is unsafe more study would have to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

While I am not a motorcyclist, I believe that helmets move as the head move, so the clear area is always in front of the rider's eyes.   The same is not true of a burka.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM

Since when was eating an apple illegal?

I should have made it clear that I meant when driving. It is illegal to eat and drive and people have been prosecuted for eating an apple when driving, one woman was prosecuted for eating even when she was stationary at a red light.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

Wolfy, try to imagine then, how utterly sick and tired the people of the Muslim countries must feel about the imposition of UK culture and political ideologies on them in their own countries, and being exploited by the British, starting in the 18th century (in the case of what is now Pakistan), and including the partitioning of their land into artificially created countries, making life in those countries a miserable mess for the people there.   Keep in mind, too, that some of those countries are former British colonies. What goes around comes around.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

apparently not illegal

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

.... but definitely not safe either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:31 PM

I drive a car and I have also ridden motorcycles. The motorcycle helmet, if correctly fitted, moves with the head so vision is not compromised. Peripheral vision may be restricted but movement of the head and use of the mirrors gives good vision. Collisions between a motorbike and a pedestrian are infrequent and the motorcycle will not do so much damage to the pedestrian as a car would.

I have never worn a burkha but I have tried to drive in various headgears, including a coif (close fitting mediaeval cap) and a headscarf and discovered that when I moved my head, the cloth did not move, thus creating an obstruction to my visibility, so I removed them as soon as possible.

I can see how many people would take this up as a safety issue, but I can see even more clearly, how many will take up the racism banner and run with it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

I think it would be possible to design a garment that would look and function essentially like a burka, but that would have the head part separate from the part that covers the body so that it would behave like a motorcycle helmet for the purpose of safety while driving. If it would be made clear that burkas as they are currently made are unsafe for driving, it would probably be much more productive to promote the use of such a garment rather than trying to prohibit the wearing of burkas entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

Emma - the original post referred to the burka so my mention of Sharia Law was following the thread !

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

I'm sorry Terry - what's your point?

I thought that your post of whether I would want to live by a law embraced by a very small minority of 'our' ethnically diverse nation, while being a rather 'loaded question', nevertheless offered the opportunity to explore what Sharia, as practicsed in Western culture, actually entailed.

I hoped that by following the diversion that the thread had taken it might be possible to move away from the public and personal paranoia (so adequately demonstrated by 'guest' Wolfy) that Islam is 'taking over' 'OUR' culture.

However I would prefer to return to the issues of road safety and security/identity issues in order to move away from the situation that, as Liz pointed out, would allow some people to 'take up the racism banner and run with it.'

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:07 PM

When I saw the thread title, I thought it was about the 93-year old who'd had a clean licence for 76 years, until he drove into a Porsche and flipped his Ford Fiesta over onto a second Porsche, causing £60,000 worth of damage!

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:49 PM

Ooh, he has great taste!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM

"Try living as a Christian in their country, then you will know what racism is….. "

Then you'll agree that it's wrong, whoever practices it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM

http://insidemagic.com/magicnews/the-news/latest-news/magician-fined-for-driving-motorcycle-blindfolded-200211162351/

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM

What are all these little question marks on the messages?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

try to imagine then, how utterly sick and tired the people of the Muslim countries must feel about the imposition of UK culture and political ideologies on them in their own countries... (Carol)

I read that as an advice to Muslims not to impose their culture and ideologies to Great Britain, as their own experience should tell them how wrong that is. But the rest of your posts does somehow not fit that reading.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:01 PM

It's me pointing out hypocrisy, Wolfgang. But I can see right here in this thread that not everyone is in agreement that Muslims are imposing their culture in Britain. It looks to me like a lot of people simply resent the presence of people who are different than them, and that is what they are calling an imposition.

On the other hand, considering Britain's track record of imposing its will, culture, and political ideology on others, as well as its exploitation of people in other parts of the world, they're not really in a position to get all righteously indignant if those who sought refuge in their country want to bring some of their culture and customs with them. The Muslim countries have never colonized nor sought to exploit the British Isles, so there is no corollary in the British experience to what is happening with immigrants from Muslim countries to the UK. Comparisons about how Christians can't behave the way they want in Muslim countries are not legitimate under the circumstances.

But I'm sure you knew all of that. You're just sniping for sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

"in most places where it is worn regularly (Saudi Arabia, for example)"

Learn some fucking geography.

The burka is mostly found in eastern Afghanistan, northwestern Pakistan, among emigre communities from those areas, and among a very small proportion of Wahhabi extremist communities elsewhere (a smaller proportion of Muslims than Lubavitchers are among Jews or Exclusive Brethren among Christians). In Saudi Arabia it's the recently adopted dress code of an urban elite minority.

Worldwide, most Muslim women live by a dress code not very different from that of observant Orthodox Christians.

"Try living as a Christian in their country, then you will know what racism is. "

Christians in Palestine certainly know what racism is, and they also know it isn't the Muslims they're getting it from.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:56 PM

Dear Mr. Campin: my ex-sister-in-law worked in Saudi. She was required to wear a burka. She was not allowed to drive a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:08 PM

So, I guess this means I can't wear a burka to work at the local Pizza Hut?


Sal, I think those question marks are marking sarcasm. Or maybe Irony, since Americans don't recognize irony. Or so I've been told.




















And by the way, Sal, I don't think there is really much doubt that it REALLY was Diana in the car. Find a new stick?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:09 PM

Random thoughts:

"Since when was eating an apple illegal?"

For awhile now - read Genesis. What kind of fruit do you think was growing on that verboten tree?

..................

I wonder if everybody here means the same thing by 'burka'?

..................

Would it help if the burka were replaced by head-to-foot motorcycle gear? Just an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM

I must correct myself. The garment worn by women in Saudi (and Iraq and other places) is the abaya, not the burka. The basic difference is that burkas often have an open slit in the front, while the face of an abaya's head covering is entirely covered with black mesh. My ex-sister-in-law called it a burka.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM

I frankly had not thought of the driving/safety issue. The issue for me is that people know each other by their faces. I don't want to deny anyone the right to be anti-social, which separating onesself from the community in that way certainly is. But it is important in many situations to be able to identify people by their whole faces, and the burka prevents that. And of course, it endangers the community if someone is driving while wearing one. Sheesh, that's a no-brainer!

And anyway, no one forced them to come here. They CHOSE to come here, and they should not having trouble adopting at least some of our customs. It would not even occur to me to go to another country and try to impose my value system on them. As the thread started, "When in Rome..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:52 PM

Are they really imposing their value system on you saulgoldie, or do you merely object to the presence of people with a different value system than yours? I think you live in the US, so I would be very interested to know in which part of the country Muslims have attempted to impose their value system on anyone. I lived for a little while in Dearborn Michigan, which has one of the highest percentages, if not the highest percentage, of Muslims of any part of the country, and I never experienced any Muslims trying to impose their value system on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it safe to drive...
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:31 AM

So is there anyone here who lives in High Wycombe?

Sal