BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses

Subject: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

Juneau, in southeastern Alaska, is a long, narrow town of 30,000 situated with mountains behind and with ocean in front. We have our own electrical system using hydropower, generated 30 miles osuth of town. Therein lies the problem.

The terrain between the hydro station and the town proper is steep, in fact, with many cliffs. There are numerous known avalanche chutes. For 30 years however it has gone along fairly well; most of the time power outages have been caused by bald eagles and their wing spans grounding themselves on the lines.

Last week however, there were two massive snow slides that took out at least 5 towers and damaged others. The power company projects that it will take three months to make the repairs. We are now totally on diesel and we have been informed that our cost will go from 11 cents per kwh to perhaps 55 cents. In other words a $30 monthly bill (which was quite common among apartment dwellers) will jump to $150.00. And hta'ts just the start.

Hotels and such will take a tremdous hit. The City of Juneau is Alaska's capital which means that there are many State agencies also. Last night it was apparent in walking around town that many properties and services are buckling down. Many street lights were being left dark, state office buildings were unlit, except for individual floors where the cleaners were working.   The downtown public library has announced that it and another one will close one day a week to save on power.

Have any of you gone through a similar traumatic event?

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

We use far to much power wastefully when I was young after a certain time of night only the lights at junctions were left on and no one would have thought of leaving office lights on all night.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM

Had one winter in Fort Good Hope when my January phone bill for a three bedroon (small) place was over $560 for 34 days of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM

Phone bill? Sheesh--I meant electric bill. DANG.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM

Rather small potatoes compared with what people in Gaza have to put up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:17 PM

Yeah. And people in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:17 PM

LMAO

You get electricity over the phone? Maybe I need to call you and say, "Shoot the juice to me Bruce."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:19 PM

You bad, Pat, BAD. But just because I'm the new champion farter is no reason to get all, ya know . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:41 PM

lol In Canada you do things very differently, Peace. The phone is a marvelous thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

We're cutting down on power usage and one of the top things on the list is to disconnect all fixtures that serve only a decorative purpose. For example, we have a three story atrium in which there are lights that only shine UP. The roof is a skylight, so there is little or no downward reflection. Those lights are at the top of the hit list. Others, well, when they go out the tubes or bulbs won't be replaced.

Stupid to an average of USD 1,200+ when I can spend less and save energy AND have the power company give me a rebate for each unit I "delamp." Unfortunately, they want the power saved so they can send it to the Boise area where demand is growing and nothing much is being done about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: KT
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

Baby, it's cold inside! Time to throw another log on the fire!

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:13 PM

If I built a fire inside it would have to be in the middle of the floor. Doesn't seem wise. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Bee
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:54 PM

Ebbie, I'm sympathetic because a big jump in any expected bill is a shock, but compared to here (Nova Scotia), I'd say you have, normally, very low electricity bills. I'm guessing you live in an apartment, otherwise you'd have some kind of heating alternative like wood or propane. We use both, in order to avoid using the electric heat. We've installed numerous power saving options as well, but we could still do better, like figuring out how to pay for nineteen new insulated windows.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

When we lived on the ranch in Wyoming we had to haul our water which wasn't too tough except in the winter. Towing a 250 gallon tank behind the Subaru still wasn't too bad unless we hit a huge snowdrift. The last year we were there they put in water lines, but they accidentally cut our natural gas line, so we went to all wood and paper rolls heat in a stove we bought from Monkey Ward. Our bedroom at the far end got pretty cold, but we had a heated water bed so it wasn't too bad.

Losing utilities there was expected and an adventure if it didn't go on too long. We were young and the kids thought it was kewl. When we moved to New England and lost power a few times due to hurricanes, it scared me a lot more. I think because I saw what could happen in a congested area like that. I used to think if they ordered a mass evac. we'd get to the stables somehow and go cross country on Rue's horse 'cause I didn't see how they'd ever get all of the people out on the highways. It would be a mass traffic jam.

Sorry for digressing, Ebbie. Seems to me the state or power company or somebody should pay the extra instead of you and others.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

The electric company (a private company) is/was trying to get help from the state but it appears that they're not going to get it because it doesn't fit the criterion for disaster, i.e. we still have power, just at an elevated cost. Although some small towns in southeast Alaska have historically had high costs per kwh those small towns qualify for relief (for instance, instead of paying the assessed 46 cents per kwh, in actuality they pay 29 cents.) Ironically, Juneau doesn't qualify because we are not in the bush.

Local bloggers have been saying that the company should have carried insurance against such an eventuality, that some smaller cities around here do have insurance. I don't know the ins and outs of it.

In my opinion the company should have either buried the lines underground for a mile or two in the steepest terrain or should have put up barriers that would have cut a slide in half at each tower. But some people who should know say that neither option would have worked, becasue @1: high power lines arc and cannot easily or safely be put through conduit and #2: that the avalanche mass was so tall and carried so much tonnage that it would hve overwhelmed any barrier.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:10 PM

Run the lines through a tunnel? In earthquake country?

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:22 PM

I can't say much Ebbie, except if you don't need it turn it off. If you can, just confine the heat to one room and hibernate there. Keep the rest of the place as 'cold' as you can without freezing the pipes. Never had to deal with something like this, but we routinely have -30 F temp here for a couple weeks at a time.

We close doors, hang blankets in open doorways, and fire the woodstove to max.

If all else fails, find a motel room? Bill it to the power company?

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:38 AM

Rap, Juneau does not have a history of significant earthquakes. If it were feasible to run the power lines through conduit underground I can't imagine that in the event of a tremor more damage would be done than if that same quake brought down the snow.

As it happens, Sorch, I personally am not currently affected by the rate increase. I've been in a managerial position here amd the place I'm moving to next week has the utilities included in the monthly rent. Although it is likely that the rent will have to be increased in due time.

I'm doing my bit though to conserve electricity- I have only one lightbulb on at a time, when I shut down the computer at night I turn off the whole thing, and I usually have only one heat strip on. since I don't have furnace heat in this attached-to-the-apartment house-by one-wall unit I have several heaters instead.

In Juneau it's still chilly weather most of the time, temps mostly in the low 40s, and lower at night. When the wind blows it is apparent that the icefields are not far away...

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

So what's new?

Letter to the editor (April 28)

One aspect of the Snettisham powerline debacle which has not been publicly addressed is the obvious permanent solution: replacement of overland transmission lines with a submarine cable.

The two-mile crossing of Taku Inlet between Point Bishop and Waterfall is already connected by submarine cable and Alaska Electric Light & Power recently connected Douglas and Admiralty Islands with a cable to serve the Greens Creek Mine. So there is no question as to it being a feasible alternative to land powerlines.

I've lived in Juneau for more than 50 years and well recall the public meetings in the 1960s preceding design and construction of the Snettisham power project by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and Alaska Power Authority. Recommendations by Juneau residents, familiar with local weather-related hazards, to consider an all-submarine power cable, were summarily rejected as being too expensive and not technically feasible, despite widespread use of submarine power cables in Scandinavia.

The responsible federal agencies grossly underestimated the severity and frequency of "acts of God" such as high winds, heavy snowfall, avalanches, falling trees, broken insulators, etc., which have plagued the line since its construction.

During the first two years in the early l970s, large sections of the line above timberline blew down, causing numerous power outages and costly repairs. These sections had to be relocated to lower elevations near the beach, requiring expensive helicopter logging to clear a powerline right of way through the old growth forest.

A case could be made to justify federal disaster funds based on the failure of the federal agencies who designed and built the original line to adequately assess its vulnerability to damage from natural hazards. The Snettisham situation is similar to the Hurricane Katrina situation: failure of the corps of engineers to estimate the potential for failure of dikes breached by floodwaters.

Simply rebuilding the failed sections of Snettisham powerline will do nothing to prevent a repetition of power interruption by avalanches, high winds, etc., plus constant maintenance over the 100-plus year life of the Snettisham power project.

At least eventual replacement of the still-vulnerable overland sections of the line with a submarine cable should be included in current discussions.

Ted Merrell Sr.

Juneau

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

First of all, Eb, you know that "yer beaubear" hates to hear about yer ordeal... Hate it!!!

I can't quite top yers but I lived thru a couple no-funners in Mission Holler back in Wes Ginny...

The first was like '90 or '91... It was mid October and the leaves were still on the trees and we had a freak thunder snow storm which dumped about 6 inches of snow in about an hour and seein' as the leaves were still on the trees, it broke thousands of branches outta trees and hundreds of complete trees and when this one hour snow had stopped there were electric lines down for miles and miles and for the next 10 days none within 5 miles had any electricity unless they had a generator...

Now when you live in a holler there ain't no water 'cept what comes outta yer well and without electricity the well pump doesn't work so we had no water except what we got from what snow I was smart enough to gather into buckets and the bathtub but after it melted it still wasn't much water...

Like the song says "You don't miss the water until the well runs dry"... Think toilets here...

And when we called the electric company they would just tell us that we were living in a "dead zone"??? Duhhhhh???

Tell you what, Eb... Those linemen were a welcome sight when they showed up to run a new line from the pole to our house... Took about an hour for the water heater to get the water hot and about an hour of soakin' in a hot bubble bath before I gave any thought to ever getting out of that tub again...

That was the worst...

2nd worst was '96 and 31 inches of snow!!! It took 3 days of shoveling to make a path out to the only road that the state was able to to get open... That was no fun at all either... No mam.... It was so deep it could not be plowed because in moutain roads there was no place for the snow to go so each raod had to be dug out with front end loaders and snow taken to reveens one bucket at a time...

But, sniff, still sorry yer going thru this...

Bueabear

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

As an east coast / gulf coast navy brat and Coastie I've had too many hurricanes come through and take out power to look at. We had a neighborhhod across the street from the power plant that had no power for two weeks while they brought everyone else back on-line within a few days. I kept expecting to see extension chords stretched across the road!

They can (and do!) bury power lines in some regions of the country. Part of the problem is shielding and the other is heat generated by resistance in the lines. The largest problem by far is that either the conduits have to be man sized to facilitate repairs or thay have to have disconnects and man vaults to gather the faulty line they are replacing into. Due to high water tables in most areas these are constantly flooding causing more problems.

If you have permafrost in the area it would probably just cause more problems than it would solve.

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:58 PM

No, Juneau doesn't have permafrost. We're only a thousand air miles farther north than Seattle.

What about sub-marine lines, as Ted Merrell suggests above? The electric company already has power going to the inhabited island a half mile away, for instance.

"They" say that when Snettisham was being created 30 years ago, conduit was proposed to them. They said, I'm told, that it would have cost another 1.5 million dollars- too expensive. A few years back the subject came up and they said that nowadays the cost would be at least 4 million dollars. I don't know how much more it would cost these days but I do know that the 20 or 25 million it's going to cost the taxpayers today is a lot of money.

By the way we have been told that not only will the kwh cost be at least 50 cents but the subscribers will also have to bear the cost of the repairs itself. They have offered to spread the cost over the next 12 month period.

(Thank you, Beaubie!)

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:49 PM

You're being shafted! That's why they're supposed to have insurance, to handle the unexpected disasters.

The price of not doing it right the first time is often extremely high, which is why they don't do it right the second time either. On the flip side it keeps more line men employed.

Submarine cables are extremely expensive because they have to be put in by a cable layer (large jobs) which means that instead of a crew of three guys and a truck you have a massive ship and it's full crew. The cable has to be pulled up every so often to be inspected which means that ship (or another one) and it's whole crew come back for another round. Submarine cables are insulated from water damage but the water itself acts as a coolant. Because of the need for cooling you can't use the submarine cables in an underground application (or so I'm told).

Subject: RE: BS: Disasters and their Unexpected Expenses
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:41 AM

Hey! We're famous. We made the New York Times today!

Check it out