Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter

Subject: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM

I just went to the Boston Folk Festival's
web site to see the line up. Not only was there not one traditional act there wasn't one folk act (IMHO). They were all contempory songwriters. So this is a songwriters festival right? They can all go & pat each other on the back & give their self congratulations to one an other & the rest of us can watch as they enjoy each other.
I don't mind them doing what they do but can't these peer-motors
get their musical genres straight. They seems to get it right in the bio discriptions of the performers why can't they get the headlinning of the festival right.
THis is in my back yard & if it was a folk festival I'd be there but I can't even justifiy going to this with a free pass in hand.
The shme of it is that Boston's got a wealth of traditional & contempory singers & musicians & lovers of what's folk. I just don't get it I guess! If they use the word FOLK do they at least have to sign up 1 folk act to give it an air of truth? Am I way off base, do I need a reality check?

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

" Am I way off base, do I need a reality check?"

The reality is the word "folk" has taken on many different meanings. I agree, it is a shame that the festival does not have any traditional singers, and WUMB finally dropped the F word from their logo.

Still, this looks like a great festival if you embrace the concept that folk can be a living tradition and the word has morphed into something for a new generation. I wish traditional music would draw more people to an event like this, but it does not.

Long live the Boston Folk Festival.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

They should drop the "F" from their festival headline too.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:06 PM

Then how would the contemporary folk fans know where to find it?

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:51 PM

"Then how would the contemporary folk fans know where to find it?"

By reading the line up if they can't trust the heading.

Call it a Music festival with a tag line.

"'A Folk Festival" without the any folk acts'"

Present it as a "Singer/Songwrtier Festival", an "Accoustic Music Festival", a "Contemporary Folk Festival", a "Traditional Folk Festival", if it's either of the last 2 or a mix then how bout calling it a "Folk Festival" but call it what it is. DOn't go calling it what it ain't!

Jesus Ron, all I'm asking is if it's gonna be put out to the public as a folk festival why not include at least 1 folk act. Every act they've booked they discribe them as songwriters, there's not one word in any of the bio's that says "folk".

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Francy
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

I don't usually respond to these conversations, but Ron: you sound like one of Geoge Bush's press agents rationalizing and justifying his misadventures and mistakes.....I think you should work on the reason you're here/......Frank of Toledo

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Tom Nelligan
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

For better or worse, the festival programming is in line with WUMB's increasing emphasis over the last couple years on contemporary songwriters and semi-acoustic pop music, which I find extremely unfortunate. As Ron Olesko notes, they recently stopped billing themselves as "Folk Radio", which at least is being honest about it. I know that a lot of longtime listeners like myself don't like the format change at all, but they're trying to find a younger audience by playing pop artists like Feist and apparently assume that they won't drive people away in the process.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Ref
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

Gosh A'mighty! I bet not a one of them will drone on and on interminably about Barbry Allen. It may not be trad folk, but Gorka has held up the banner of folk for most of his career and McKnight writes songs that fit right into the traditional form of story-telling. No one on this website has been appointed to determine what is or isn't FOLK. Lighten up.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:10 PM

count yourself very lucky. all we have in this country is talented musicians wasting their time on songs and tunes that for the most part would have been better off dying out.

any songwriting is immediately castigated as navel gazing rubbish. usually by people who think they can empathise with the chaps in nelson's navy or mine and factory workers who lived lives of utter degradation. whilst at the same time they can't empathise with anybody whose clothes don't have the same expensive labels as their own.

No one has been appointed, but plenty are doing the determining of what is and isn't folk on a freelance basis.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:11 PM

A 'living tradition' has some tradition to it other than the tradition of the music biz. I don't think the problem is that there are singer/songwriters. I think the problem is that's ALL there are. WUMB probably drives the festival and they've gone to a unpopular pop format for much of their programming. Still have good stuff and plenty of singer songwriters I like, but they also go over the edge far enough to make me turn the radio off sometimes. (And I've just noticed Tom Nelligan's post above and agree 100%.)

It probably would be better if they did re-name the festival. Music festival, singer/songwriter festival, songwriters' showcase or Boston Songsmiths, 2008. Something that wouldn't attract people who mistakenly believed it was a folk festival.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Ref
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM

So, we're going to require trad festivals to include more new folk artists? I love the Old Songs Festival, but I like new stuff, too. I can choose to go where I want, and refrain from getting my jollies trying to define other people and their music. Gorka says he's folk and proud of it. So do others on that list. Trad is just one more category.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM

Barry, I completely understand and respect your committment to keeping traditional music alive. I admire you greatly.

Frank, that was a very rude and stupid thing to say and I think you are the one that needs to work on the reason you are here. You may find it easy to compare someone to Bush, but that is uncalled for. It is one thing to disagree with an opinion, but there is no need for such an insults. I am very surprised that you would stoop to that level.

Like it or not, the Boston Folk Festival IS a folk festival.   Please tell me how Henry Butler is not a folk musician? Eliza Gilkyson? John Gorka? Andrew McKight? Kathy Mattea? Pat Wictor?   Have you heard ANY of these artists?   I'm sorry, but each of these artists carries a piece of the tradition with them.

No, you probably won't hear them dusting cobwebs off of old songs or trying to emulate something they aren't. They do not pretend they have spent time aboard whaling ships or worked in cotten fields. They do not represent young urban white kids who felt that all they needed to do was put on a flannel shirt or a paisley dress and strum a banjo to get in touch with our nations traditions and culture.

Yet each of these artists carries on a tradition that some of you wish to ignore. Their living tradition is not honoring a business tradition. They are creating songs in the same fashion and for the same reasons that most of the songs we label as "traditional" were created.

People are too fearful that THEIR tradition is being taken away because others have chosen to honor OTHER traditions.

I know the arguements - by calling these musicians "folk" and not providing opportunity to showcase traditional music the music will never be exposed to new generations. BS.   Music is "discovered" and embraced by generations for different reasons. Most of us are products of the folk revival which grew because it met a need for the time.   What most people fail to see is that the revival never died, but it grew and had a huge impact on the music of the next decades right up to today.

In all my years, I have NEVER heard a singer-songwriter mock the individuals whose respect and dedication to preserving traditions have allowed them the opportunity to wear the mantle of "folk". It is a shame they do not receive the same respect.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:06 PM

"No, you probably won't hear them dusting cobwebs off of old songs "

Let me take that back. You WILL hear them dusting cobwebs off old songs. Songs are not meant to be put on a shelf and looked at from afar. They are not delicate artifacts but robust works of art that were created to be used.   Each of the artists that I mentioned in my previous post has and does play traditional songs, yet do it in their own style - much like the folks you hear on the field recordings were doing.

Anyone who closes their ears to Jud Caswell, Eilen Jewell and Emily Elbert are denying themselves an opportunity to hear some powerful songs that deserve to be in everyones songbag.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:32 PM

... and once again, I do agree that the Boston Folk Festival should offer traditional music as there is certainly a large audience for it in Boston.   However, based on the lineup, I feel they are justified for calling it a folk festival.

Now, if you wish to talk about Newport....

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Ref
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM

Well written, Ron!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:54 AM

They are all contemporary songwriters. They sing all their own stuff except for the few that swap between themselves.
Yes Ron I've heard them, they are the new up & coming pop/commerical singers that play to the easy listening genre. Listen & look at the bio's. They're writers of commericals, jingles, pop, jazz, honky tonk, country, R&B, they span every genre but folk. If you're gonna do folk you have to at least have some background in it. The backgrounds of this bunch varies from heavy metal, jazz, claassical, opera.
I like Eilen Jewell & Annie Lynch & the Beekeepers but they're not folk. I like Eliza Gilkyson to but she's not folk either. Kathy Mattea's about the closest you'll get with this bunch, she's good but is she really doing folk stuff? Her latest CD is the closest she's come to being in that arena. I'm not gonna discuss Gorka, sorry I don't have much possitive to say so I'll say nothing at all.

It's no different than Newport. The same arguement can be made by others in support of Newport that you're making about this festival.

Folk doesn't mean the songs have to have cobwebs & that they need a dusting but at least give us someone that's has at least walked past a folk song during their upbringing.
There are plenty examples of contemporary songwriters that would fit the bill far better that what they've lined up.
Richard Thomson, Steve Tillson, our own George P., there are plenty, they don't even have to be steeped or write within a tradition like Utah Phillips, just as long as they once smelled a folk song. These writers couldn't write or sing a folk song if you drowned them in an ocean full on them.

"Please tell me how Henry Butler is not a folk musician"

Have you listened to & followed Henry, he comes out of a R&B, Jazz & Pop grounding & he still hasn't convinced himself that he's not a Juke Joint messenger, he's a few different things & maybe he's not excatly sure of what he is but he ain't folk.

"I'm sorry, but each of these artists carries a piece of the tradition with them."

What makes you think that these singers carries any tradition with them. I'm tired of hearing about how the new contemporary singer/songwriters played in garage/grunge/rock bands & had a change of clothes & are now writing folk songs. Just because you slow a song down & don't screem it don't make it folk.

I like Jeri's wording of calling it a "Songsmith's Festival"! That covers alot of ground & it gives the public a better grasp of what's being offered.

Ref says that he likes Old Songs but also likes new stuff & that Trad is only one genre. Well I like new contemporary stuff too but that's only one genre (singer/songwriter) here too & that's all that's being offered. So this is like the far extreme right to a traditional folk festival, a no folking folk.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:08 AM

& yes Tom, I agree with you. WUMB has taken the folk off their radio billing & are now at least being honest about it. They should've done that a long time ago & they should be honest about the festival too. What folk they've offered & you're right about their format in both the station & the festival is no more than a offering of crumbs when it comes to folk. They are targeting a younger pop crowd while hoping not to lose those that they've catered to in the now seemingly distant past.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:14 AM

"In all my years, I have NEVER heard a singer-songwriter mock the individuals whose respect and dedication to preserving traditions have allowed them the opportunity to wear the mantle of "folk"."

That's the biggest load of bollocks I have ever read on here, and boy have I read some.

"Finger-in-the-ear"
"Aran Sweater"
"Folk Police"
"90-verses of nasal drivel"
"irrelevant"
"GEFF"
"Beards and tankards"

These are just SOME of the examples. You've even got the example of WLD - excellent performer though he is - misguidedly rubbishing his own and his country's heritage and roots on this very thread.

There seems to be an endless stream of senseless and ignorant insults poured out about folk music, song, and indeed dance, by those whose appreciation of their own times and circumstances stretches no further back than last Thursday.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:00 AM

Richard, there's an endless stream of senseless and ignorant insults poured out by both sides, the traddies and the contemporaries, and it's completely unneccessary IMHO. Both genres can, and in many clubs and festivals do, live side-by-side - all it takes is tolerance and an open mind (which I guess are one and the same?).

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:36 AM

Sounds to me like our stateside friends have their own particular sources of grief without us weighing in.

However, please note Richard and John - the number of roots artists over there who are making an unsubsidised living. their roots are nearer the surface - people in America would recognise what they are doing as American music. A more common muse.

All we have is our rarefied airy fairies doing it part time after a hard day as a librarian,etc. Playing music that, for the most they don't give a damn if anyone connects with. And if you told most English people that it was their roots ...they'd laugh at you.

i was at a session last night. the sheer indifference to what the audience was understanding and taking away from the experience had to be seen to be believed. Not a word of explanation, not even telling other musicians what tune it was or what key it was in. It was almost a solitary pusuit in a room full of spectators. if they make love the same way they perform music - there must be some very unsatisfied partners.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,c.g.
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:50 AM

I was at a session last night . . . sheer indifference to the audience.

A session is not a performance. It does not have an audience. A session is for the enjoyment of the players. If people around are enjoying it, that's good, but by definition a session does not have an audience. And as for 'not even telling other musicians what tune it was or what key it was in' - we do something called listening. Then we recognise the tune and know what key it's in.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:53 AM

PS I may be insulting, but I'm not all that ignorant.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

Well I think that's all a bit hoity toity.

How many of us have got perfect pitch and know what key a piece is in, without being told.........not many.

And why are we playing this particular piece of dull as buggery instrumental music. what is its provenance and significance?

These are questions which perennially cross my mind on these occasions.

Perhaps I would be better off rolling up a trouser leg and joining the freemasons. At least they admit its a secret society.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:59 AM

Well, Al, freemasons have the same cavalier attitude to history that you seem to.

My point was that it is simply untrue to say that songwriters and contemporary musicians are not rude about folksong singers - as you bear out.

The point I have made before and will make again (before leaving the particular issue of this thread to those prmiarily affected) is that as the Americans say, you have to know where you are coming from. I will add that one reasonis so that you can know where you are going. If African Americans are enhanced by finding their roots, so are white Englishmen and women. To dwell only in the immediate present has been the source of much wrong since the evil Thatcher asserted that there was no such thing as society. Those who learn not from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:04 AM

well as you say, I AM horribly rude to traditional musicians, but only in a loving way.......

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM

It's taken a while for me to click that this is Boston, Mass, USA not Boston, Lincolnshire, UK.


DURRRGH!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM

"To dwell only in the immediate present has been the source of much wrong since the evil Thatcher asserted that there was no such thing as society. Those who learn not from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes."

Couldn't agree more, Richard, which is why I maintain that the genres of traditional and 'contemporary-folk' music can, should, and in the tolerant majority of venues do, live side-by-side. As in all things, variety is the spice of life! :-)

But this is really a thread for our US-brothers and sisters. What they regard as 'traditional' and 'folk' is often seemingly quite different to what us UK-dwellers would recognise (for example Ron's assertion that Kathy Mattea, wonderful though she most certainly is, is a folk-artist doesn't ring any bells with me).

And, even as a mostly contemporary performer myself, I'd hate to go to a 'Folk Festival' that had no 'traditional' content - it dahn't make no sense, Gav'nah!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Input
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:22 AM

Ron and Richard, you speak perfect sense. I have had this discussion on other threads. It bores me rigid the way that the traddies bang on and on about 'proper' folk music. Just because it's not 200 years old and 'collected' by some old geezer with the arse hanging out of his trousers that stumbled across some fella singing about the merry month of bleeding May, doesn't mean that it isn't folk music. Now let's have a big hand for the Boston FOLK Festival and it's awesome line-up.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM

to weelittledrummer:-

yes, taking the p*** is also a time honoured English tradition as well as singing.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: mrmoe
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:30 AM

it looks like a great folk line-up to me....I think Barry needs to expand his definition....

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: DebC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

As someone who crosses the ocean quite a bit to hang with our folk brethren in the Isles, I see this as a PERFECT opportunity to discuss folk in the US vs folk in Britain and Ireland, especially when talking about singing and the singing tradion.

I apologise for generalising here; I may be wrong (and I hope I am), but in my own experience, I DO see a much bigger nod to the singing tradition in British songwriters than in my US songwriting brothers and sisters. It's the rare Amereican s/s that gives the nod to the tradition or, as my good friend Barry states above that they perform anything other than their own compositions.

The other thing I notice in UK and Irish-based songwriters is that the writing is usually based in the roots of the tradition, be it Scottish, British or Irish and is obvious (especially with the UK based s/s that I am familiar with: George P., Caddick, Tilston, Napper/Bliss, Lister and even some of the floor singers I encounter at the UK folk clubs) that they have listened to the old songs and know them intimately. With a few exceptions, I don't hear that in a lot of American singer/songwriters' performances.

Just speaking from my own experience,
Deb

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

I tell you what, if you really don't to admit Henry Butler into the sacred list of 'real' folksingers. He can play for our team - we'll swap a couple of melodeon players and a bodhran player for him.

And you can have a few of those Child ballads back to sweeten the deal.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:05 AM

The American Heritage dictionary lists the following meaning for the words "folk music":

1.Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation.
2.Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music.

Barry - as much as I respect you and admire your committment to traditional music, there needs to be respect given for the second definition as well.   The words have evolved and encompass a lot more than they way you and some others are defining it. You can state your opinion that Gorka, Mattea, and the others are not "folk", but you are in the minority, not that there is anything wrong with that. (Check out Kathy Mattea's latest CD "Coal" and then report back.)

"To dwell only in the immediate present has been the source of much wrong"
Absolutely. And to dwell only in the distant past has also been the source of much wrong. You need to keep perspective on both and learn from each.

I do wish there was more traditional music offerings at all festivals.   I love Old Songs because of their diverse blend of style and their honoring of the tradition. They should be the role model for all festivals as far as I am concerned.   I just would not get my panties in a twist because someone is using "folk" in a way that I may not agree with, when the rest of the world has evolved to realize that folk music is a much wider genre than a handful of people are trying to deny.   The traditions do not and will not die out, they are not endangered, but there is a lot of interest in more than just an old ballad and those needs should be served as well.

Suggestions that it be called a "singer-songwriter" is just as useless. Woody Guthrie, Madonna, Neil Diamond, and even Irving Berlin were and are singer-songwriters.   They are not all "folk".

Sorry Richard, but you can call it "bollocks" if you like, but I remain steadfast when I say that I have never heard a singer-songwriter speak about the traditions with such disrespect. It is one thing to have a pissing match with someone like Al and sling insults back and forth, but all the singer-songwriters in the folk genre that I know understand the tradition and treat it with respect and greatly admire those who have preserved it and opened doors.

We can all cling to one definition and act like an inbred dysfunctional family, or we can celebrate the diversity the encompasses "folk" music.   I'm not trying to change anyones mind - it is pretty obvious to anyone who spends time on Mudcat that the forums are filled individuals who stand on their position at any cost. All I am trying to say is that it might make sense to stand back and look at what is happening in the world, and instead of moaning about how great the old lightbulb was, understand that the light that is currently shining is just as bright - and it can allow many people to share in the glow.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:17 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

Not going there. You know what I am certain that "folk" music means.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

Hi Barry its great you care about the music called"Folk"
Why dont you sign up for a set and show them how 'tis done.
Peronaly I like many differing genre of the musical kind and being a pedant myself I would be a little sniffy at the misuse of the descriptive in the advert.
Bloody singer song whingers get everywhere.
Why oh why oh why(etc) do people advertise accoustic music nights when...........

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

I am in total agreement with Barry here.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:59 AM

Anyone telling another person their likes and dislikes are invalid is a complete idiot, and those who think this is another opportunity to AGAIN post their arguments regarding trad vs. singer songwriter are idiots. I am perhaps also an idiot for believing people are capable of understanding specific issues and posting original and appropriate responses.

This is a festival in Barry's 'backyard' that has shut out all the music he cares about. That's the bottom line. I'd go if there were something for me, and now, there's not. I'd join WUMB if there were something for me, but there's not. It's not that there are singer/songwriters. Hell, Barry writes songs and so do I. The problem is they don't want those who love traditional music at the festival. Not even enough to throw us a bone.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:07 AM

I think the problem with a lot of modern singer/songwriters is that they make Leonard Cohen look positively cheerful!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:09 AM

There's one for the 'stuck in a rut' bunch.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM

Jeri, I am not sure if you were directing your comments at me, and if anyone felt that by comments I was telling a person that their likes or dislikes are invalid, then I apologize for that misunderstanding. That is far from the point I was trying to make. I sincerely respect traditional music and people like Barry who continue to support it and perpetuate interest. Any individuals likes and dislikes in music are valid, and no one can ever say that is wrong.

I am sorry that Barry and others feel they cannot support the Boston Folk Festival, and I do understand why. I may be wrong, but I don't think this years lineup is any different from offerings at previous Boston Folk Festivals.

I strongly feel that there is room for both traditional and singer-songwriters under the "folk" umbrella, and we spend way too much time arguing terms and not enough time celebrating why we love the music in the first place. There should not be a civil war among folkies, as everyone loses. I am sure that anyone not familiar with folk music in any fashion would get turned off by reading this thread.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

"I strongly feel that there is room for both traditional and singer-songwriters under the "folk" umbrella..."

Then you understand what I'm saying. My comments weren't directed at you unless you're trying to say Barry should enjoy the festival even if it has nothing he wants to hear.

The civil war is based on intolerance of peoples views. Think about whether YOUR opinion, not other people's, and see if maybe Barry has a right to feel the way he does before you take up your flag of choice.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

I absolutely feel that Barry has a right to feel the way he does, but I do think that Barry and others should also understand that others have a different opinion and we can all co-exist together, and probably learn from each other. While Barry feels that "folk" is a misnomer for the Boston event, there are others(including myself) who think that the description fits. The dictionary has two meanings for a reason.

We can salute each others flag.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

Acorn4, sorry. That was my last nerve over-reacting. Maybe there should be another thread.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the computer called Rachel
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:08 PM

It isn't really about likes and dislikes. It's about the misuse of language. But, hey, to an advertiser a word means whatever will separate the mugs from their money.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

May I offer a minority viewpoint? I feel as though I might be a minority of one here, but here goes anyway:

I find the viewpoint that the adjective "traditional" can only describe a particular historical (if not literally "dead") tradition to be extremely shortsighted. Believe it or not, actual living traditions exist in some parts of the world, if not in yours, and the musicians who keep them alive wouldn't pay the slightest bit of attention to the arguments being debated here.

I know very little about the current acoustic-songwriter scene popular in the northeastern US, which may or may not be "folk," and which seems to be the focus of the event in Boston that is under discussion here. (I probably know even less about the UK folk subculture, although reading Mudcat has given me some idea of the personalities and issues if not the actual music.) Among all the names of the BFF's featured artists, I recognize none except for two: Kathy Mattea (with whom I am only vaguely familiar, but whose singing I've thoroughly enjoyed on a very few occasions) and Henry Butler (whom I know pretty well, and whose work I greatly enjoy and admire).

Sure, Henry has roots in jazz and R&B ~ and that very precisely defines the tradition of which he's a part! Here in South Louisiana, if not elsewhere, we enjoy a vibrant living musical tradition actively played by multiple generations (in many cases, generations of the same families) which reflects the indigenous and very personal musical expression of people who have lived here for hundreds of years. There's a virtually seamless connection of work song to spirituals to blues to "trad" jazz to R&B to modern jazz to today's street-parade/funeral/social-and-pleasure-club brass band music.

Look, I don't begrudge anyone their individual taste, and I have to recognize that any sniping and name-calling from any quarter is nasty, short-sighted, and ultimately unmusical, to say the least. But I do feel more sympathy and commonality with those who are open to contemporary musical creation (even in contemporary genres that might not be to my taste) than to those whose only interest is in trying to "preserve" their own conception of what they'd like to believe occurred in the distant past.

I mean, really: there's no way we can know what any music sounded like before the advent of recording, as much as some of us would like to revert to some romanticized vision of a simpler time. And think about it: if you were living back in one of those seemingly "simpler" eras, what are the odds that you'd be among the privileged few able to enjoy and exercise your educated taste? For that matter, do you really think you'd still be alive at your current age?

My idea of music that is "of the folk," or valuable insofar as it represents a "tradition," has nothing to do with whether a song is ancient or brand new, nor with the intrument(s) used in its performance:

~ The music has to sound to me as though it has something to do with a tradition with which I'm already familiar. (Sorry: I realize this is vague, but it's the best I can do to describe an admittedly very subjective criterion.)

~ The music has to be performed "live," or at least be capable be being performed in person. In other words, I have no problem with "electrified" (amplified) instruments, but I draw the line at music that relies on studio effects. This is not to say that I don't enjoy "I Am the Walrus" or "Pet Sounds," etc. ~ just that I wouldn't include such music within my already-quite-broad definition of "folk" or "traditional."

Just one example of what I'm trying to say: Muddy Waters did not suddenly become less than a traditional blues artists when he moved from Mississippi to Chicago and plugged in his guitar. At least, not so far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:09 PM

What I don't get about the singer-songwriter types working in the standard "Dylan meets Broadway meets Nashville" idiom is how labelling themslves as "folk" makes any commercial sense. The folk music market is relatively small and somebody like Kathy Mattea has so little chance of getting a sale from somebody whose favourite idiom is that of Belle Stewart or Ole Bull that there just doesn't seem to be any point. Why do they do it?

I can kinda see the point of weelittledrummer's approach - just try to insult any potential competition into oblivion since you can't attract an audience for your work on your own merits (he probably slags off opera and hip-hop under other pseudonyms). But most singer-songwriters don't go all-out to be offensive. They just earnestly think we ought to be interested in them, for no imaginable reason. It's like a manufacturer of meat cleavers advertising in a vegan magazine.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

Hey! I may disagree with WLD, but he's rather good at what he does. It may not be folk (which it isn't) but it ain't bad at all.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

"I am sorry that Barry and others feel they cannot support the Boston Folk Festival, and I do understand why. I may be wrong, but I don't think this years lineup is any different from offerings at previous Boston Folk Festivals"

Hi Ron,
below I've posted the past partical line ups since the festival started, do note that I left off many whom I consider singer/songwriters & not folk but there was plenty of room for all, including contemporary & trad artists. Please note the difference also that there are no representives of foriegn cultures anymore.
Also note as the yrs move ahead the decline in what's folk lessens.

2006: Richie Havens, Eileen Ivers & Immigrant Soul, Kim & Reggie Harris,Jesse Winchester,Jennifer Kimball

2005: Matapat, Guy Davis, Ruthie Foster, Chris Smither,Lori McKenna and Janis Ian.

2004: David Bromberg, Natalie MacMaster, Sam Bush, Geoff Muldaur, Ollabelle, Tom Paxton, Chanty Boat Singers

2003: Joel Mabus, Tarbox Ramblers, Carol Noonan, Luther "Guitar Jr" Johnson, Tom Rush, Koko Taylor, Tony Trischka, Danú, Paul Brady,   Emmylou Harris, Capt. Stan and Daisy Nell, Koko Taylor, Scott Alarik

2002: Waifs, C.J. Chenier and the Red Hot Louisiana Band, Guy Clark Richard Thompson, Nanci Griffith, Iris Dement, Southern Rail, Barachois, Bill Staines, Janice Allen, Barry Finn, Ken Schatz, Ken Sweeney, Patty Larkin, Utah Phillips,

2001: Rosie Flores, Chris Smither, Jimmie LaFave, Aoife Clancy, Altan, Eddie From Ohio, The Kennedys, Shirley Lewis, The Sevens, Chris & Meredith Thompson, Freddie White, Chris Smither, The Spirit of Africa with Mohamed Kafifa Kamara, Bill Morrissey, Mustard's Retreat, Laura Love Duo

2000: Garnet Rogers, Paperboys, Seamus Connolly, Robbie O'Connell, The Bagboys, Geoff Bartley, Ibrahima Camara & Safal Band, Magnolia, Djembe Safara, Lynn Noel, Barry Finn, Cuchullan, Kim & Reggie Harris,
Richie Havens, Tish Hinojosa, Jim Kweskin with Samoa and the Swinging Tenants, Jimmy LaFave, Late Bloomers, Christine Lavin,
Magnolia, Magpie, Roger McGuinn, Peter Rowan's Texas Trio with Tony Rice, Steeleye Span, Josh White, Jr.

1999 An Cre, The Barra MacNeils, Ibrahima Camara, Capoeira Camara,
Michael Cooney, Daragee Drum Ensemble, Jeff Davis, Stacey Earle,   
Eddie From Ohio, Kat Eggleston, Cathy Fink and Marcy Marxer, The Eileen Ivers Band, The Kennedys, Louis Killen, Kate MacLeod, Murray MacLeod, Mustard's Retreat, Kelly Joe Phelps, Silver Leaf Gospel Singers

1998 Odetta, J.D.Crowe, Luther "Guitar Jr." Johnson, the Tannahill Weavers, Tom Paxton, Lui Collins & Dana Robinson, Susan Werner, The Swinging Steaks, Devonsquare, Turgay Erturk, Tolino, The Tarbox Ramblers, The Freighthoppers with Sara Smith, Eddie From Ohio, The Silver Leaf Gospel Singers, Brooks Williams, Howard "Louie Bluie" Armstrong, Guy Davis, Paul Rishell & Annie Raines, Happy Traum, Josh White Junior, Skip Gorman, Tony Cuffe, Taproot, Murray MacLeod

Thanks to all (so far anyway) that's posted their thoughts.
My gripe is that this festival has EXCLUDED not only trad but by the looks of the line up all BUT singersongwriters. Also, WUMB, the festival sponser has done the same with their station programing with a few exceptions (like Sandy's Saturday night Traditions show & a Celtic program). WUMB was a driving force in Boston's folk community along with Passim's Coffeehouse. Passim's has follow suit & many of the other venues are doing the same. Boston has become THE singer songwriter captail of the country & it's to the exclusion to all other geners of folk.

I don't want to force Trad or even contemporary folk on any festival, venue or person BUT I don't want the SS to force the others into hiding so that they can premote themselves at the cost to those that allowed them the breathing room in the 1st place to grow & prosper. UNGREATFUL kids!

Lastly, these SS cover almost exclusivly themselves or one another. Is that the new folk mantra? That's gaul.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:50 PM

I am not a folksinger out of commercial sense.

I am a folksinger and have been one for nearly fifty years, because I identify with a great artistic and humanitarian movement.

I seem to remember there was a rendering of the gospels by a bishop entitled - Your God is Too Small.

Your folkmusic is too small.