Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM

Ya, it may be small but after nearly 40 yrs of it it hasn't ever been boring, I still can't see the bottom of the well, I can't help but be refreshed by it & I'm still knocked out by what I hear.

WLD, whose folksongs do you sing or do you write all your own?

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:08 PM

Barry, thank you for posting that note. Your points really become clear now.

While I still do not object to the use of the word "folk" for such a festival, I agree that the lack of traditional after what you have shown us was offered in previous years is a bad sign. When WUMB dropped the word "folk" from their logo and altered their format, we had a vigorous discussion on the Folk-DJ list. I sided with those who were appalled by WUMB's action.

To me, it seems that WUMB and their festival is now being driven by business interests instead of meeting the cultural needs of the community that it was trying to serve.   It could be a sign of an aging audience that no longer supports or needs WUMB, or it could be a sign that WUMB was missing their audience.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:10 PM

Hi again Ron
By the line up & schedule tell me if you think there'll be any sessions or informal jamming or song swaps this yr, aside between the performers. Do these performers even do sessions & swaps with the festival patrons?

They advertise nearly 2 dozen artists this yr, actually there are only 16, a far cry for the rosters of the past, what's up here?

At least they've dropped the ticket prices from the early yrs. Again, what's up here?

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:19 PM

Jack Campin makes a good point. Why would anyone interested in selling records and concert tickets bill themselves as "folk"?

As I noted above, Kathy Mattea is the only name on the BFF bill that I recognized, with the exception of my homeboy Henry Butler. What little I know about her makes me think of her as a "country" artist, or maybe "alt.country" (to distinguish her from the worst of Nash-vegas). I would think that either of those labels would serve her career much better than "folk," at least in a nationwide context

Of course, Boston ~ with its ever-changing college-age demographic ~ is probably a large enough scene to have its own definition of "folk" stand up as a desirable label for youth-oriented singer-songwriter types.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

Barry, I really don't know the Boston Folk Festival that well. For me, here in NJ, it has never been worth the expense of traveling up for - I see most of those artists at Old Songs, Clearwater or Philadelphia Folk Fests.   I have seen swaps and sessions with performers and patrons at other fests - the campfire scenes at Kerrville and Philly spring to mind - but I really do not know what they are doing.

My guess is that the Boston Folk Festival is still being planned. Let's discuss again in the fall!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:22 PM

I dunno I have been s despairing of the current developments for a while.

It always seemed to me that folksingers brought us together. Not in a Kumbaya sense. But when I was a kid I'd see Johnny handle at the Exmouth folk club, and he's talk about mines and the North east. Jacquie and Bridie would talk about their community in Liverpool. The Journeymen down at The Jolly Porter in Exeter would have Devon folksongs. The Yetties would have their Dorset stuff. Dere Brimstone would pop in and tell us what was going down at Les cousins in Greek Street. It was inclusive and it spoke of worlds unknown.

Now its all bloody authoritarian. people telling you what is and what isn't folkmusic. Its all a load of cock if you ask me.

A mate of mine said to a man I know Richard holds in high esteem ( no name no packdrill - Richard knows who I mean) In your opinion is Tom Paxton a folksinger?

his answer was - no way! not at all!

Theres lots of great traditional songs and I sing many of them, and when I was gigging the Irish bars I sang even more. But its not what I do and its not what I have to say as an artist. And in a few years I'll be dead and at this point in time, I am announcing my right to say it. And my annoyance at the people who suppress it - along with many other artists who they say aren't 'real' folk music.

And really what the hell do they know/ And what makes their point of view any more valid than mine - other than the barefaced power that they wield over English folk press and radio.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:23 PM

Would it be fair to say that WUMB is DUMB?

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:02 PM

But that's it dammit. Tom Paxton is an excellent singer songwriter (even I like some of his songs). But it's not folk. I don't want to stop Al singing what he sings. It's good. It isn't folk, but it's good. No-one suppresses contemporary acoustic music. There are many more consumers consuming it that there are those consuming folk. But it isn't folk.

Almost all the acclaimed artists in "folk and acoustic" right now are singing songs they write, and/or putting tunes and words they write into folk songs. No barefaced or even whiskery-faced power is wielded over over English (or other British) music press, radio, or TV. Hardly any folk music is there, and hardly any gets a fraction of the promotion that music that may owe something to the tradition but is not folk gets.

Al's type of music gets it all. It gets the exposure. It gets the promotion. It gets the consumers. Even Eliza Carthy is writing her own material. Even Lal Waterson wrote her own songs.

Why the hell do you want to call it "folk" when it isn't (and as SWMBO will tell you, falling it "folk" is the kiss of death anyway)?

Nothing stops or restricts you, Al, from doing exactly what you want. You'll not be as financially disadvantaged (99% of full time musicians are very poor) as you would be if you were doing folk music. What's your problem?

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:11 PM

Richard, it is folk. It is not traditional and it does not meet your definition, but to the majority of people who know him, Tom Paxton will be recognized as a folk musician.

The train has left the station, to the public it will be folk music.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

Oh yeh Lal and Eliza - and they sing in that woebegone traddy voice - so they sneak in under the wire.   

To conform in such a manner insults my intelligence and sensibility.

And Ron, why is the public sensibility so erroneous. For my money - they've got it right. The point about folksong is that addresses folk. Not from a doctrinaire standpoint, but from within the community.


I can see no difference between Tom Paxton's song about the firemen at 9/11 than Tommy Armstrongs stuff about geordie miners. Qualitatively - its very similar.

The trouble is that we're dealing with critics who are bought and sold and legions of Salieris who frustrate God's creation in the form of Jack Hudson.

Jealous and not very bright.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:35 AM

Wee - I never said the public was wrong! I can accept that "folk" has different meanings. There is a huge difference between a traditional song passed in the oral tradition and a composed song written yesterday, but they can both be considered "folk" to the ears of the listener.

I wear my Mets cap often. A baseball cap was designed to have the visor in front with the logo proudly displayed above. The visor is in front so when you are in the outfield shagging fly balls (I know that probably means something different to the Brits), your eyes receive protection from the sun. As a fan of the game, I think that is the only way to wear a hat. However, just take a walk down the street and you will see hats worn tilted to one side, around the back, etc.   That is not the way a hat is supposed to be worn! The same thing with those twits who insist on wrapping a sweater around their neck because they are too damn lazy to carry it or feel that it looks cool that way. They are not wearing the items they way they are supposed to?   Should I go up to each of them and complain? No, I will continue to wear my hat and sweater the proper way and realize that public fashion has dictated changes. I do not have to like it, I do not have to follow suit, but it is what it is.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:37 AM

As many of you are aware, I agree totally with what Barry Finn is trying to say.

Anyone remember the joke about the guy who claimed he owned George Washington's axe? "Yep", he said, "this is it. Of course, it's had 5 new handles and 3 new heads." Just how much change and 'evolution' is allowed before the name is no longer relevant?



Over and over and over...again, and again and again....those who want to include almost ANYTHING that isn't hard Rock & Roll under "folk" miss the point! (and I have heard THAT included!)

Ron's line about "...each of these artists carries a piece of the tradition with them." also misses the point. They have that 'piece of the tradition' pretty well disguised, or hidden in their pockets.

"So, Bill...you Purist Snob, you...what IS the damned point?"

The point is: This is not about what is 'good' or 'popular'. It is about keeping some semblance of context alive in your NOMENCLATURE!
I have written about this for years, and have tried in tedious detail to show that when the 'feel' of the music changes, the DESCRIPTION should also change! What are those of us who want to hear mostly the original & older sorts of 'folk' to call it?
If Barry & I did put on a festival, and called it FOLK, and a bunch of people showed up expecting to hear singer-songwriters, they would probably be bored! Suggestions...and some good ones, have been made above about how to promote a festival with the more ...ummmm... 'modern' touch. But 'folk' take up such a smaller space on the posters!

It is one thing to decide that YOU like definition with a wider, more eclectic set of musical genres, but I do get tired of things like " if it's not 200 years old and 'collected' by some old geezer with the arse hanging out of his trousers that stumbled across some fella singing about the merry month of bleeding May... being put forth as OUR definition.

The big problem is that IF 'folk' is going to mean mostly singer-songwriter stuff, and that's what gets looked for when staging a festival, then the older stuff (the base on which is is all built) will gradually get lost. All that Barry & I want is a way to KNOW what we are getting into when we buy a ticket! (And those who DON'T care for the older stuff should also want to know, so they don't waste THEIR money if Barry & I start a festival!)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:21 PM

So, Tom Paxton is not a folk artist. Makes perfect sense, given a particular definition of folk art.

By the same token, Woody Guthrie doesn't qualify, either.

That may make sense to Morris dancers and other British traditionalists, but I can't see it making any sense at all in the US.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:00 PM

There are many (I suspect) American folk songs in a range of traditions - and indeed many of the known English/other British folk songs were preserved in America. There have been many eminent American folklorists. There are none so blind...

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:29 PM

There are none so blind...

as those who cannot see.   

I believe that is the rest of the quote, and I agree with you!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:35 PM

PoppaGator.. Tom Paxton is, in my opinion NOT mainstream 'folk'...but he IS obviously in the 'folk tradition' of singing and writing topical songs about 'life'. Even more so was Woody. They write lyrics about what is 'out there', rather than what is just 'inside', and they do it with largely singable melodies. All songs were, presumably, written by 'someone', but in time many of them become trad/folk by being known and sung BY 'folks' who have little idea who guys like Paxton and Guthrie were.
Other areas...like autos or furniture... have their standards about what is a classic, or an 'antique'. It doesn't need to be strict & formal, but there IS a difference between the status & feel of "Barbry Allen" and "The Twa Corbies" as compared to the latest hit by some new, hot group.

There is a famous line..."They don't write 'em like THAT anymore!"...perhaps you have used it - and it is true for some of the older songs....because society has changed, few CAN "write 'em like that". Even if some of modern S/S music has certain debts and similarities to the OLD 'folk', we all know the differences, even when it is not easy to define precisely. I even listen to and LIKE some of it, and some stuff, as I note above, is borderline....but WHEN I am in the mood for really 'trad' stuff, I want to know what I am spending my dime for!

All I am asking for festival & concert venues to do is clarify what they are offering. (I do 'wish' they'd offer more of what I want, but I can cope with my CDs and old LPs and the occasional Getaway or private party where I can count on the content.)

So....about once a year, I get out the soapbox and preach...(rather than weekly, as I used to do).... you can all relax for awhile now.....unless...

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:30 PM

In 1966, the Seattle Folklore Society was formed. They let it be known right off that they would be sponsoring performances only by traditional singers and musicians—people who had grown up in rural America and had learned the songs they sing from their toothless grandmothers. They also let it be known that they were not interested in urban-born singers such as myself or Bob Nelson or Walt Robertson or anyone else who had learned the songs they sang mostly from songbooks, records, or each other.

My, how times have changed.

In 2006, the son of two well-known and highly respected folklorists and song collectors was doing a West Coast tour and contacted the Seattle Folklore Society to see if he could do a concert under their aegis. They asked him about what songs he had written. He responded that he did not write songs, he sang traditional folk songs that his parents had collected. The SFS answered him, saying, sorry, but if he didn't write his own songs, they would not be interested.

This was when Stewart Hendrickson, Bob Nelson, and I decided to resurrect the long-defunct Pacific Northwest Folklore Society (the reason the PNWFS was defunct after a most auspicious beginning is a story much too long to go into here). The first event of the newly reformed PNWFS was to sponsor this person's concert.

The sudden appearance—or reappearance—of another folklore society in the area got the attention of the Powers That Be at the SFS. In a friendly conversation, it was made plain that we have no intention of being confrontational or competitive with the SFS. But if the SFS does not want to sponsor singers of traditional songs (traditional in the historical sense), then we will. On that basis, it isn't a matter of competing organizations, it's "division of labor."

In fact, as a result, I understand that there is a re-evaluation of policies, and there has been quite an interesting flurry of activity within recent months. A local coffee emporium is in the process of converting itself to a 1950s-60s style "coffeehouse" with folk (traditional) music as regular entertainment, and the Everett (city forty-five minutes' drive north of Seattle) Public Library is sponsoring a series of folk concerts. More to come.

I have nothing at all against singer-songwriters, and am fully aware that some (not all, but some) are very much in the tradition of the troubadours, bards, and minstrels of previous times, from whom many of the traditional songs we sing today came. One of my favorite singer-songwriters is Gordon Bok, who is so steeped in traditional material that the songs he writes are almost indistinguishable from traditional songs. Tom Paxton, Townes Van Zandt, several others, yes.

Indeed, I just discovered that there is a young woman living in the same apartment building where I live who is a singer-songwriter. We just became acquainted within the past couple of weeks (her first CD has just been released) and she writes some very interesting songs. She tells me that she is pretty well acquainted with folk music—but the question that lingers in my mind is that I'm not totally sure what she thinks of as "folk music."

The word "folk" has become so diluted within recent years that it seems to have lost its original meaning, hence, when the term is used, it all too often requires that the user clarify what he or she is talking about.

But I do not buy the idea that anyone who writes songs and then sings them is, ipso facto, a "folk singer" and that the songs they write are automatically "folk songs." Perhaps they will be. But to say that "I just wrote this folk song last week" is like saying "I just wrote this classic last week." It may be in the "style," but whether it is ever a folk song or a classic, only time will tell. If the composer is the only person who ever sings the "folk song" or plays the "classic," then, no. Sorry, no cigar.

To call something a "folklore society" if it is not interested in traditional material, or a "folk festival" when only contemporary music is perform, displays that one does not have a very good command of the English language,

Don Firth

P. S. Style should not be confused with substance, and I think that may be one of the problems here.

If someone sings to the accompaniment of an acoustic guitar, the assumption is often made that they are a "folk singer," oftentimes regardless of the nature of the songs they sing. Unless, of course, the songs can be quickly identified as belonging to a specific genre. Suppose they are singing songs by Cole Porter? Or Neapolitan love songs? Or songs by Jacque Brel? Or songs from Broadway shows? I'm sure no one would then think of them as "folk singers." Why, then, if they are singing songs that they have written themselves, suddenly "folk singers?"

Now, if they write songs in a "folk style," one might tend to lean in the direction of calling them "folk singers." But that's still not accurate.

If one absolutely insists on calling someone who sings songs they have composed themselves, in a style usually associated with traditional (historical) folk songs, to the accompaniment of an acoustic guitar a "folk singer," I would suggest that confusion—and a great number of arguments—could be avoided by qualifying it a bit and referring to what they sing as "contemporary folk."

Anybody have any problems with that?

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:15 PM

I note on the festival website that Kathy Mattea is playing, now while most people associate her with country music (18 Wheels and a Dozen Roses), her roots, as it were, lie in folk. As is stated in her mini-bio Mattea has recorded a collection of traditional coal mining songs from West Virginia (Coal)

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:38 PM

Thank you, Don, for saying what I wanted to say even better than I said it....well, different, anyway.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:14 PM

HI Charlotte R
In my original post I mentioned that Kathy was probably as close as they were gonna get.

There's much to your analogy with the "Classics" Don. If in fact you were an English Lit professor & your specialty was the classic's & you just read a newly published read, I would say that you might at the end say "this is gonna be a classic" or not. You've been studing them for you whole life, pouring through those that claimed to be but were't & steeped in those that were. You've developed what might be called "a feel" for what is & what isn't. Well, I'd say that some of this feel can be used used along with what would also be a more rational reasoning & explanation. Like what you were saying above.
So many times I've gone to a venue where I didn't know about the said "folksinger" but took a chance because of what the billing discribed or the person at he other end of the phone said only to get there & after 3 or 4 songs want to vomit. My stomack knows the difference.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:48 PM

And, like Barry, I have been unpleasantly surprised a few times....twice when I was sure it WOULD be 'right'.

I attended a Malcolm Dalglish & Grey Larsen concert many years ago, and was pleased...so when they returned, I went again, only to find they had gone astray. Best example was the canal boat song "Shawnee Town". They speeded it up and made it ummm...bouncy! When I asked, they replied that 'they were doing lots of college gigs, and that's what the kids expected!', so they changed the style. They DID have a sort of excuse...like, they wanted to keep making a living doing music....but they KNEW they had altered the feel of the music for a buck.

Then, there was Battlefield Band. The first couple times I saw them, WOW! Then there was a 2-3 year lapse, and when they returned with a bit different composition, it was ¾ loud, driving stuff with electronic tricks by THEIR sound man, and only a little of the trad stuff I remembered. At least I bought the early LPs while I could.
...As Barry says, my stomach knows the difference...and my ears do too! The later stuff HURTS!

   They have the right to play what they wish, to anyone who will pay for it. I just want some help before I spend my limited money foolishly.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Ref
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:54 PM

Maybe we should just change the name of this site to "Arrant Pedantry." All this fuss over how to delineate FOLK music is a waste. There ain't no hard lines and there should be no hard lines between musical genres. Again, and I shall bother no more, lighten up!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Never purchase Grape Nuts. No grapes, no nuts.

You might be disappointed about Girl Scout Cookies too.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: stallion
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Bill D
The Battlefield Bands sound man is our sound engineer and very good friend, Rob Van Sante, he has served his time on the folk circuit for the past thirty years I have known him. Haven't heard the BB lately but I think the sound is a consensus and not solely down to him. Admittedly he has a large input to the final sound quality can't say about the arrangement, he is a very good sound engineer.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:23 PM

Do you know why there are such things as dictionaries? They're so people can look up worda snd find out what they mean.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:45 PM

Sure Don. If you read the above you would see what it means.

To save you the time of having to find it again, The American Heritage dictionary lists the following meaning for the words "folk music":

1.Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation.
2.Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:48 PM

I love the thin mints Ron, I just hope they don't change the recipe & add carmel & keep calling it the same thing. (hee,Hee)

The SS & who ever else want to make a living at what they do, I have no gripe about that. I'm not even as much a stickler as Bill (pretty close though). If a preformer changes their game plan & who'll they'll target so be it. But when a radio station and festival that holds as much sway in the folk world of a city like Boston try to premote a genre of music & try to pass it off for what it ain't & try to relable it's product & redefine a genre in a city that's a hub for that genre, that's not sitting well in my gut. WUMB has been a 24/7 hr folk station for 25 yrs up untill lately & this most recent direction has moved them almost off the folk map completly. They've done the same with their festival. Are they trying to convince their followers & the city & it's enviorns of what the "NEW FOLK MUSIC" is? New & folk can live together but there's also a line somewhere as Ref says, that's maybe not a hard line but it's there somewhere & I'm not gonna have it from a festival or station that's got an a stake in the matter tell me where they think that line is. They crossed the line & they should copt to it. The past few yrs they've "BLURED" the line which could be tolerated up to a point but they're beyond that point now & they need to to called on it.
And I'm calling it,,,,,as I hear it.

This is not a folk festival, again look at where they've come from & where they are now.

It's not a matter of "is Kathy Mattea a folk singer" or "does she sing folk songs". Her new CD "Coal" is a departure from what she does & what she does is good & her "Coal" is black & hot but do you think she's gonna be doing something from a different corner of folkdom when she's in a crowd of SS like the list that's playing? It's a songwriters festival. Where are the other geners, where's the Blues, the Bluegrass, the Cajin or Zydeo, where's the Cowboy, the Western, the Mountain? They still work & sing & write about the mines, they still sail & write songs about that. Do we need to hear only from the songwriters that WON'T WRITE from, within or even near the box. If they're only singers that are writing from far outside the box, well, let them call their box something else & don't go trying to convice a city that's there's a "new kid on the block" & that we need to buy into that new kid & for go the rest at the rest's expense.

They (the premoters) are trying to sell us who love folk music a new set of goods which isn't what it appears to be.
Look I go into a store & they have been selling me beef for yrs, now they've come up with a new canned product, no more raw beef that I have to cook myself. It has the taste & flavor of beef, smells of beef, even has some of the helper stuff to make it look like beef but when I read the ingredients I find there's no beef. I go to the manager & ask why they're selling me this & calling it beef & why they're not selling any of the beef I used to buy? They say cause "it is beef", this is the "NEW BEEF".
I ask you when you look at this line up of singer songwriters "WHERE'S THE BEEF"?

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:51 PM

Barry, re your remark about dropping the "folk" out of the name...The Vancouver Island Folk Festival (west coast of Canada) did just that, it's now known as The Vancouver Island Musicfest, the name change certainly hasn't done any damage to attendance figures.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:58 PM

The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk. They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW) songs, but that doesn't make it FOLK music because the only thing it has in common with folk music is that it is acoustic.

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:00 PM

Oops, left out a word -- let that read:

The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk. They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW) songs, but that doesn't make it FOLK music because the only thing it has in common with TRADITIONAL folk music is that it is acoustic.

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Bill D, thanks to the quick answer, and same to Don Firth. What the two of you had to say was quite pertinent and eminently understandable.

I was only being partly facetious in asking whether Woody Guthrie passed the test(s) to qualify as a "folksinger." He was, after all, nothing more or less than a "singer/songwriter," someone who wrote so much original material that eventually, by the time he came to wide public notice, he performed his own compositions almost exclusively.

Do most (maybe even all) of us accept him as "folk" only because he's dead and gone, and therefore his style is necessarily free of any trace of contemporary influence?

I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, nor am I acting only as a "devil's advocate." I'm wondering out loud because I truly don't know what to think, myself.

"Acousticness" does not, or at least should not, be sufficient cause for classifying a performer as "folk." I definitely believe that some amplified music ~ e.g., Chicago style blues ~ is as authentically folk as just about anything, and much more authentic than most run-of-the-mill attempted re-creation of age-old music as practiced by current-day enthusiasts.

Also, I agree with the most hidebound traditionalists among us that some, if not all, of the quasi-"folk" s/s stuff that prompted this thread is not folk at all, and certainly that it's entirely wrong to label a festival as "folk" when no traditional music is included, and to call one's organization a "folklore society" when denying sponsorship to performers of folkloric material who do not write new songs!

I find it difficult, however, to give credence to any objective criteria in the neverending "what is folk" debate. It really all seems to be about subjectivity, personal taste ~ certainly when it comes to judging performers who do, indeed, write their own songs. Some of them are genrally regarded as being "in the tradition" while others are not, and I can't really see any clear distinction.

Well, there's one reasonable criterion mentioned somewhere above: if all of a singer's concerns seem to be emotionally and psychologically self-centered, we can all probably agree to rule them out. Since so much traditional balladry tells stories from a basically objective viewpoint, and also since so much twentieth-century folksong addresses social justice, I would think that a singer must express some degree of concern for, and interest in, other folks, not just his/her own self, to be a folk artist.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:49 PM

"They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW)"

John Tams, the English FOLK musician prefers the term popular music to folk music, because, after all, that's what "folk" music was..the pop (short for "popular" BTW *LOL*) music of it's time.

'The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk.'

Sorry I fail to grasp why this is a problem. Are we to expect that all singer/songwriters should "write in the traditional style" (whatever that means)in order to be considered "folk" musicians?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Did I ever get a surprise when I tried sweetbreads! I also sent back the chicken fried steak thinking they left out the chicken!   Of course, I did breathe a sigh of relief when the waiter explained what spotted dick actually was made of.

Look, I do understand the concerns and it pisses me off that traditional music does not get more exposure at these events. As a radio host, I find it nearly impossible to please an audience these days - if I focused soley on the music that all of us (including myself) grew up with as true "folk" music, I could probably fit the entire audience into a studio. Not that I pander to prevailing tastes - I happen to see a connection and I happen to feel that there are important songs that should be heard. I am finding it easier to blend both. Deb made a good point, there does seem to be a reluctance from artists to dip into the traditional songbook of our country, but I do see signs that is changing. Groups like Crooked Still might not be to your liking, but they keep it alive.

While someone in this discussion accused me of being an apologist, I do see the "fit" that contemporary songwriters have in the tradition.   The American Heritage definition, #1, describes music made by a common people of a region or country, passed down through an oral tradition.   Well, the audiences AND the musicians that support contemporary singer-songwriters are part of that "common people" of a very distinct region - it is just that the region is no longer defined by geography and it utilizes tools that were not available years ago.   There is a distinction between this and "popular" music.   When Bat Goddess said that much of what is being written "in the style of traditional folk" - I have to ask, what tradition? There are many, and new traditions evolve.

I realize that this discussion was not meant to define folk, and I do understand Barry's point of view much more clearly than when we first began this discussion.   I am just of an opinion that this is not an issue that will bring doom and gloom the the "traditions" and that traditional folk music styles will remain active and preserved for future generations.    Traditional folk music was not meant to be an exhibition sport anyway, and if people like Barry and others can keep it alive through weekly sessions and sings, then we are indeed lucky.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:58 PM

"that's what "folk" music was..the pop (short for "popular" BTW *LOL*) music of it's time. "

Actually, that is not exactly true. A song like Barbara Allen probably was unknown beyond the regions where it was collected. Certainly Tom Dooley was a local song before recordings came about. Often the songs we hear and call "folk song" are the ones that were lucky enough to be collected and then RESURRECTED by musicians and fans since the folk revival.   I wonder if we would still be singing Sloop John B if Carl Sandburg did not sing it as part of his readings.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:16 PM

Aye but even if a song was not known beyond the regions from which it came, it may well have still been "popular" within those regions, but that's something we'll never know (Barbara Allen is not a song I have ever liked). As far as the U.S.A is concerned which ia not an area of expertise for me, so things maybe different, I have no idea. Sloop John B. I'm not familiar with, other than The Beach Boys reading of the song.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Charlotte, you are correct. As I mentioned in the previous post, the songs were probably not know beyond the region. There are songs that are popular to me as an individual, but probably not to many others.

Today when we refer to "pop" songs - the range is much further. Sounds like another discusion!! :)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:31 PM

Ron. don't get me started on the popular music of today *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:32 PM

I agree - it is not very popular in my house either!! :)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:38 PM

"Sloop John B" was recorded and made quite famous by the Kingston Trio long before the Beach Boys covered it. I realize that not all of us are old enough to remember that, of course.

If you're too young to know about the Kingston Trio, they were one of the first 1960s folk groups to achieve wide popular exposure and acclaim, and their emergence was a major feature of the early "folk revival." Soon enough, as more and more people became aware of more traditional and "authentic" folk music, the Kingstons were scorned by many as being too "pop," but when they released "Sloop John B," their involvement pretty much defined the song as a "folksong" ~ certainly to those many of us who were not aware of Carl Sandburg's earlier performances.

Another Beach Boys recording that should not be regarded as a "Beach Boys song" is "Barbara Ann." That was by no means a folk song, but it was a top-40 recording by some long-forgotten doo-wop-pop group long before the BBs recorded their cover version. I'm very sure of this because I bought the original 45rpm record. That record is long-gone by now, so I can't refer to the label to tell you the name of the group.

John McCain, who very enthusiastically if rather atonally sings "Bomb Bomb Iran" on a You Tube video, IS old enough to know better, but he erroneously refers to the song being parodied as "the old Beach Boys song."

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:53 PM

Somebody above mentioned "pedantry?" Okay, here's some pedantry for you!

Okay, Ron, so citing the dictionary was not necessarily the best defense for my position. However, as I'm sure you are aware, especially within recent decades dictionaries tend to reflect popular usage of words, often with little regard to the niceties of such things as the formal definition of "definition." A good definition consists of two parts: genus and differentia. Genus specifies a broad category and differentia differentiates a particular thing from all other members of that genus.

The use of the genus-differentia definition is by no means restricted to science. Rather, it is the natural thing to do if you are to explain the meaning of a particular word to someone. With this, the "classical" type of definition (Definitio fit per genus proximum et differentiam specificam.), one uses the copula (is, are) after the word being defined (just as if you were using an equals sign in a mathematical equation) and then go on to explain the word by using the appropriate generic term plus those characteristics specific to the thing you are describing which consecutively narrow down the meaning until the word in question can no longer be confused with anything else. [Emphasis mine – DF].

A few comments I posted on a thread some time ago are, I believe, relevant here:

As far as anyone knows, the first person to ever use the term "folk song" was Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744-1803), a German philosopher and collector of volkslieder (folk songs). He was referring to songs of the rural peasant class. In this modern world, which has become more urbanized and which we like to think of as "classless" despite the mind-boggling spread between the richest and the poorest, it makes people uncomfortable to think that there might still be such a thing as a peasant class. When many poor people live in the cities and try to keep body and soul together by scrubbing toilets and flipping burgers (preferably not the same person and not in that order), we don't like to acknowledge that we may still have what might be considered a peasant class. It embarrasses people. It embarrasses governments. Thus volk has slowly morphed into "just plain folks," which we like to apply to everybody, including people with annual incomes that exceed the GNP of a medium-sized country. And the term "folk singer" got pried loose from traditional singers of traditional songs and got stuck on any singer who sings fairly simple, strophic songs to the accompaniment of a portable musical instrument, especially if they write the songs themselves and like to call themselves "folk singers." And especially if they've recorded a CD and music stores opt to put it in the "folk music" bin.

Folk Festival.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:57 PM

Actually, the Weavers recorded it before the Kingston Trio - who learned it either from the Sandburg collection that was published in 1927 or perhaps from one of the many field recordings that were later made - including Alan Lomax.

The point is, the song was a regional song that became "popular" to a wider audience due to the work of the collectors. Because the song became so widely known, does it cease to be a "folk song"? Is the Beach Boys version not a folk song because they use electric instruments?

It is gray areas like this that get us into such discussions which are really a turn off to audiences who do not share the same passions. I find it fascinating.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:04 PM

' I realize that not all of us are old enough to remember that, of course.'

Got that right, sunshine...

However your "long-forgotten", doo-wop-pop group (an area of interest for me by the way) was The Regents who recorded Barbara Ann in 1961, the song written by Fred Fassert. The Beach Boys version came in 1965..a four year gap, not a long time in terms of cover versions of songs.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:06 PM

Don, that is all well and good - and frankly I never disagreed, but the point is the POPULAR usage is the one that ultimately counts. As you yourself pointed out, the original use of the word was limited to a rural peasant class and that certainly evolved. Definitions change, there is no "mathematical" formula that will ever lock it down.

This is all beginning to remind me of the Cheech and Chong routine about dog crap.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:17 PM

Charlotte ~ I'm impressed that The Regents weren't "long-forgotten" by you.

I forgot their name ~ and I had bought the dang record!

Ron, I may have been alive when the Weavers were active, and in fact have very distant, foggy memories of hearing their "Goodnight Irene" on the radio while sitting in a highchair, but I missed being aware of their "Sloop John B.'

Your point is well taken, if I understand it correctly: the well-known songs with which many of us have become familiar as "traditional" classics are actually an essentially random set of songs, each well-known within an isolated local culture, and each of which happened to be "collected" by someone whose efforts turned out to be remembered and widely disseminated. All pretty accidental.

I suppose that the many songs that were never collected and which are now completely forgotten were definitely "folk songs." The songs that we know well enough to argue about were all "popularized" (and arguably "corrupted") to some extent.

Like you, I find all this stuff fascinating. I have a few hard-and-fast opinions, but am willing to go either way on many issues (and will sometimes do so in writing, just to keep stirring the pot.)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:58 PM

I may be weird, but my wants are really fairly simple. I do not want to

1.   go into a Chinese restaurant, order a plate of shrimp fried rice, and be served a pepperoni pizza;

2.   buy a paperback novel that purports to be science fiction and find myself reading a Harlequin Romance;

3.   go to an ophthalmologist's office to have my eyes tested and have him put on a rubber glove and tell me to drop my pants and bend over;

4.   buy a CD of folk songs or go to a concert by someone billed as a "folk singer" and find myself listening not to work songs, love songs, sea chanteys, and ballads, but to a bunch of songs the singer has written himself or herself about their teen-age angst or the composition of their belly-button lint;

5.   etc.

Or consider for a moment the person who wants to hear contemporary songs and finds himself listening to a program of Child ballads . . . .

It's called "truth in labeling."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Barry, on wife's work computer
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:10 AM

Well Don, tonight I did just that.

I went to Club Passim's, a folk club for 50 yrs is plastared over the stage's flag.
The 2 acts I went to see tonight have been heralded as folk, 1 wining folk album of the yr & other "folk" awards.
I sat through the 1 st act in hopes that the 2nd act had a scent of folk. It did she did "Rose Connelly" with 2 others that were invited up the stage. Every other song written & sung by both act were about themselves. This travelling adventure & that heart brake, the loss of this loved one & how tough it was in college. Never a chorus or a refrain to join in on, even if you wanted to, never a sing along on this one was heard, it's almost like they write them so you can't join in with them, it's their trip & you're not invited on the ride, you're only invited along for "their" telling of it, cheap SOB's. Then I thought that maybe they thought the audience was "dumb", couldn't sing along, 'duh'. I don't have to sing along, I know cause I love long ballads & I don't peep. I finally left before the 2nd act was done. I couldn't take it any more. I didn't go there to be given advice in the form of song or to hear the woes of some self absorbed singer songwriter. I went there to enjoy myself, to become part of the music that was taking place, I wanted to be absorbed into their music. Instead of finding the "Beef", I was taken for a ride, I nearly vomited, motion sickness, again my stomack sussed out the truth.

When Woody sang a song about his hard travelling & his shoes, you know it wasn't about him it was about all those stuck in the same boat as he was or about those in the boat he saw passing by. He wanted others to sing his songs, he wanted others to sing along, he wanted folks to listen to the story of the people he seen & met, or the trobles & joys he saw that others knew & felt, he want the rest of us to feel what he wrote about.
Yes, Woody & other "folk" singers & writers of folk songs wrote about the common folk they connected with through song with these "common folk", that was part of the tradition, the tradition was about "life according to those that lived it", not about my little world, it was always bigger than that. There is no connection with many of these contemporary singer songwriters, they write about themselves & not much else & even when they do write about something other than themselves it's how "they see it" or "it affected them" or what it did to 'their' way of life.
It's I,I,I,I. They don't even care if you get it or sing to it, they're not part of any bigger picture. I'm going home now to get some "beef". I'm sick of this thinner than soup music.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Jack Radcliffe
Date: 03 May 08 - 08:20 AM

The good news is that there are so many festivals around now that you can find plenty that suit your interests. Remember, too, that Woodie Guthrie, Jimmie Rodgers, A.P. Carter and Hazel Dickens are all also "singer/songwriters" although their subject matter is a bit less self-absorbed than most of what I hear from that genre nowadays.
Meanwhile, There's still Old Songs and Philly and the "new" Eistedfod ... as well as our own Taunton River Folk festival. All trad all the time for four days at five venues in Taunton, Mass. in October.
www.tauntonfest.org
[e-mail]
Jack Radcliffe
President, Packer/Shipper and Dishwasher
Wepecket Island Records

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 May 08 - 09:45 AM

Beautifully put, Barry. You hit the nail on the head about what so many singer songwriters are about - 'them'. That said, there are a few, including a few Mudcatters, who break this mold so I'm not against singer songwriters per se. I just don't enjoy most of them.

Too bad you aren't in Richmond, you are guaranteed a trad experience at our Richmond Folk Music Society concerts. That was exactly why I founded it - to provide a venue for traditional folk music, and I explain why here .

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:13 AM

Don, the problem with your analogies is that people do not consider a pepperoni pizza to be fried rice. There are many people that do feel comfortable with considering singer-songwriters "folk" and the term fits.   For the science fiction book, there are many that deal with romance - and ultimately the author is telling a story and determines what form to follow. If a bookseller places the book in the wrong section, does that change the message of the book?   As for the opthalmologist, it depends where people keep their head!!

Barry, I am sorry that you had such an awful time. I think that it is important not to generalize. There are also many traditional songs that deal with "I" and they are an important part of the canon. I'm not a fan of the self-absorbed songwriting either - I used to joke that these people should be called "singer-songwhiners". I'm sure though that you have had experience with god awful traditional musicians who may be serving up "beef", but have burnt the dish beyond all recognition and sapped all the juice and taste from it.

It is all a matter of taste and opinion. The boat has sailed - like it or not, folk music will be associated with BOTH traditional and contemporary.   

As for feeling that you don't know what you are getting - well, in this day and age there are liner notes for CD's, Club Passim and most venues will have descriptions and links to the artists so you can get an idea of what you are going to hear. You would not buy a car without taking a test drive.

I really hope that the energy we all spend discussing a few words can be channeled into practicing, promoting and preserving the music that we all love.   Instead of being hung up on yet another label, lets worry about the quality of the content.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: DebC
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:35 AM

This has been a great discussion, but for me it's not about what is or isn't folk, who writes good/bad songs, who is roots-based and who are the "belly-button people", etc.

It's about EXCLUSION. As a singer who doesn't write, I am excluded from many US venues and opportunities for that reason and that reason only. I hear time and again "We love your music, but we only present original songs." Don made a great example of the Seattle Folklore Society and Barry continues to say (and I agree) "don't call yourself "folk" if you are NOT including the music that is from or based in a tradition.

I know enough songs to where I can give an all traditional performance of public domain material (as Mary from Richmond can attest to) or I can give a totally contemporary songs performance, even though I didn't write those songs.

My complaint is that many fine and excellent artists who respect (and love) a musical tradition are denied INCLUSION just because they don't write songs.

And that's a darn shame.

Deb Cowan