BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?

Subject: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:45 PM

I've been expecting a thread way before this. I live in an old - very old and very energy inefficient - 5 story Victorian house and I live in Maine where it is really really cold. Last year my budget plan for oil -- BUDGET - same every month winter or summer - was $389. I have just been told by the oil company our new number will be $575 -- a MONTH - YEAR ROUND........that is a mortgage payment for some people. Luckily - so far - we can afford it and we have a future soninlaw who is a carpenter and is going to help us insulate this place --- but what on earth are people going to do with these prices.....how will they manage - how will they stay warm?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:54 PM

You'd probably recover the cost of conversion to natural gas in a very short time.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 08 - 08:02 PM

I'm convertin' to the "leather express"....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 May 08 - 08:08 PM

Good question Brit.

A lot of folks will have a tough winter. Will Mr. Chavez be giving away oil this year?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 08 May 08 - 08:40 PM

The only good thing about the high cost of oil is that it will significantly raise my share of the Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend. Rumor has it that 2008 should bring each of us $2600 this coming October. That should buy a tank of fuel or two for the old 4x4. No sales tax, no state income tax, and a nice check in the PO Box. Alaska is a great place to live.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:00 PM

"Alaska is a great place to live."

I'm on my way! Spent a pleasant week in Juneau many years ago...even climbed the mountain back of the town.

(ummm...how long do you gotta live there to be a resident?)

Maybe Arizona, where I won't need much oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:10 PM

I heard on the news last week that Exxon-Mobile had just logged in the largest net profit of any company in history. Anywhere. Ever.

When you're standing there at the gas pump carefully filling your tank with an eye-dropper, it kind makes you wanna spit, don't it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:12 PM

It's gas, electric, wood, wood pellet, propane and so on out here. No heating oil to speak of is used. Oh, maybe a kerosene heater now and then, but that's about it.

Bring back coal! I miss gittin' up at 2 a.m., shakin' down the grate, and throwin' some more on the fire! Or fillin' the stoker and then pullin' the clinkers out! Coal! Yeah! Hello, carbon monoxide....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:49 PM

I am asking because I really do not know, but does the buying and selling of options on oil have any effect on the cost at the pump or to heat one's house?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:00 PM

Capitalism at it's best! The rich get richer and the poor poorer. Then the poor are fed a load of hogswallop making them believe that they are all the better for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:00 PM

I've been putting in a lot of time with a chain saw in the last few days. Salvaging down wood in our own or adjacent yards from recent winds.

We live in a big, drafty old house, too. I've cut our oil consumption from around 1200 gallons to 800 by burning the wood stove.

Makes it harder to keep the instruments humidified, tho'.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:23 PM

I STILL want to know why, when the traders change the prices on oil futures, the price at the pump goes up immediately! That oil they just bought at $120 will not be in my neighborhood for weeks or months!

Someone is scooping up PILES of $$$$$$....and to read Exxon's financial report, I have a good idea who!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: heric
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:35 PM

I still want to know why, and when, a person decides it's time he's just gotta gotta have some pork bellies.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:42 PM

I may be a little simple when it comes to matters of "the economy" but I was of the impression that a market economy was driven by supply and demand. In the case of oil there hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been any great changes in either of those parameters - the price is being driven by speculation in the stock market. Does that mean that people are betting that in the near future there will be a major change in either the supply or demand of oil, major enough to warrant a nearly 100% increase in a relatively short period?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: heric
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:46 PM

I think there's a complicating overlay with regard to refinery capacity, as well, which of course can be restricted or misrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: MarkS
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:50 PM

Yeah! Hello, carbon monoxide....

And also hello radon. Got bit on this one a few years ago after selling a house in which I stored coal inside.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:09 AM

"Makes it harder to keep the instruments humidified, tho'."

An old trick is to place a few pans or kettles full of water on the wood stove top. They simmer/boil, depending on the rate of heat output, and humidify the air a bit. Adjust to your own circumstances/satisfaction. Check the levels occasionally. Discard the resultant liquid eventually - it will concentrate the salts, heavy metals. If you keep using the water from one for hot drinks, washing up, etc though, you will not be concentrating it much.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:10 AM

A smoked pork belly, lettuce, and tomato sandwich would taste pretty good about now--

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:41 AM

If you think that the prices in the US are high, try living in Britain.

However - I am puzzled that there have been a couple of comments on the non insulated draughty houses you live in. It seems crazy to me that you just burn more fuel to keep warm whilst at the same time heating up the air outside the house - perhaps if the cost of heating rises enough it will force people to stop wasting fuel and get their buildings sorted out.

Our Victorian red brick villa has a thick layer of insulation in the roof, double glazed windows, and polystyrene beads in the wall cavity. Despite it being over 100 years old, a bit of effort and not all that much expense means that it is fairly cheap to heat despite it being quite large for an English house.

Our petrol is about the equivalent of 2 US dollars a litre at the moment - that is for 35 fluid ounces, and diesel costs even more, so everything is affected. We recently bought a smaller car to reduce travel costs, but we do not go anywhere unnecessarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:54 AM

Agreed, Rumncoke. There's not going to be any big reduction in prices in the near future, and efficiency is the only way to go.

We have a very well insulated barn conversion (all my own work) with three bedrooms. I've just filled the oil tank at a staggering 57 pence per litre. That's £2.58 a gallon or $4.12 per US gallon. Our annual use is about 1200 litres (265 gallons, 317 US gallons).

Our car averages 65 mpg (54 miles/US gallon). I'm currently paying 120p per litre ($8.67 per US gallon). This year's fuel looks like £755 or $1440.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:08 AM

Supply and demand- supply down (or will be in future, encouraging the owners to stockpile), demand up (China, India). There's no way down.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:11 AM

I live in an old station house that is as well insulated as it's possible to get it. We use around 2000 litres of oil a year and the price has more than doubled in the last couple of years. We also burn logs on a woodburner in the living room and have recently installed another in the dining room. However, logs have also increased in price to £55 a load (around a ton) mainly because the local power station (Drax - the largest coal-fired one in Europe) is now also burning wood at the rate of 25 tons an hour. Seems you can't win!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:40 AM

It is now costing me 15% of my after-tax income to commute to work.

I am actively looking for a job at a closer location.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 08:30 AM

It might be supply and demand; but don't forget there is a well established price-fixing cartel in between the two.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 08 - 08:44 AM

Either the US (and the rest of the world) starts conserving or everyone is going to go backwards. The US has got to start looking at hub-and-spoke goods delivery, for example, where the trains (which are more efficient at pounds-delivered-to-amount-of-fuel-used than trucks) deliver to central truck distribution points. The US has to go back to train travel -- light rail is an excellent idea, but it has to again use a hub-and-spoke concept instead of having the rail stop at every town along the track.

I really expect the head-in-the-sand attitude of most Western leaders to continue, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:20 AM

I'm well above the fuel poverty level (10% of income spent on heating), I'm spending 15% with a small solid fuel stove + oil-fired back-up! I have an old cottage with 3' thick stone walls (which are good insulation) and attic insulation which helps a lot. I'm trying to get a little government help for extra insulation but, so far, with little success! They should be helping everybody with the current food/energy/housing crisis. As the man on 'Dad's Army' used to say - we're doomed!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:39 AM

For governments to help the people means that governments have to admit that a problem exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:50 AM

Rapaire...there was an article the other day saying that the US railroad industry IS getting a boost from this situation. Tracks are being repaired, new engines are being designed and long dead routes are being re-examined.
Perhaps technology will finally get to work seriously on alternate transportation and heating methods. (I do know I see programs every week now on new inventions and solutions...like light, flexible and cheap Solar Panels and re-designed wind-turbines)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:01 PM

You'd think we could make freight cars smart enough to jog along the tracks on their own. Dynamic routing, like Internet packets, to avoid congestion.

Really, though, the issue is energy. In a universe consisting of nothing BUT energy, one would think the solution to an energy problem would be obvious and immediate. But we have grown accustomed to taking advantage of an extraordinarily high degree of energy density, one which allows us to store a potential of around 2400 Mjoules of energy in a 20-gallon box and use it to drive 400 or more miles at high speed. The density of energy (if you accept the biomass version of oil generation) was acheived over millions of years of molecular decompositon and densification under pressure.

While some people insist "peak oil" is behind us, others are sure new resources will continue to provide the planet's current supply rate for some time. The politics and economics of oil supply are insane at present, laced with greed, immoderate profiteering, racial hatreds, political stupidity, etc.

In terms of raw energy, there's enough light falling (and heat) on Death Valley itself alone, to provide the energy needs of the US. But it's not dense, it's not portable, and there are no distribution channels that can carry it across the nation. These are "superable" obstacles, of course, if coordinated willpower can be brought to bear. It will not be brought to bear by anyone whose survival is deeply vested in oil profits, though.

A



A

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Okay lets tackle this one piece at a time

1. Supply and Demand - Not a bad thing when you're talking about things that people want but don't truly need and there is a finite resource. However when everyone needs it... Also there is the very real fact that when you control the supply you can decrease the supply thus increasing the demand. Alot of people will rebel against the idea of gov't caps on earnings/costs but I think it's time to get this under control because it is really hurting the economy!

To the point of controlling the supply, I'd like to point out that the supply of crude is not the problem here. Plenty of it out there (for now). The problem is that there has not been a new refinery built in the U.S. (not sure about world wide) for a couple of decades now. Couple that with a few of the existing ones being retired and a growth in demand over the intervening two decades and you can see what's happening. The oil companies have also just recently begun shutting down whole refineries for maintenance instead of just decreasing production in the area where maintenance is being conducted. The news the other day stated that the refineries are also only working at 80% capacity.

Then you do have OPEC and the other conglomerates not increasing production when we do know that they reduced it to drive up prices a few years back.

About a decade ago I was conducting a vessel inspection at a Hess tank farm and spoke to a tankerman about the price of oil and gasoline. He told me plainly that the "oil crisis" of the late 70's was caused by the companies working together. They would allow the oil tankers to sit off shore until the price rose to what they wanted and then they'd sail them in.

It's way past time to make our houses more fuel efficient with insulation and high efficiency appliances. We're going to have to learn to reduce consumption. The only problem is that as I've already pointed out, they'll just cut production to keep the prices high.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 09 May 08 - 01:58 PM

" . . .one which allows us to store a potential of around 2400 Mjoules of energy in a 20-gallon box and use it to drive 400 or more miles at high speed"

20 miles a gallon? There's the problem in a nutshell - complete disregard for the fact the resource you're using is finite. Buy a more efficient car for a start. Take some responsibility for your actions - because anyone with a vested interest in the oil/car industry certainly doesn't give a shit.

Welcome to the new world order - find something else to run your SUVs on because oil based economies will become a thing of the past. Here in the UK we're paying £5/$10 for a gallon of diesel, so stop whinging (you're paying less than most and you should be paying the same) and start looking for an alternative - you're going to need one.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:40 PM

Trubrit, I know how you feel - the gas company here keeps sneaking up its prices, a few cents here, a few cents there. We had a very cold spring this year which meant the heating was on a lot longer than I'd anticipated. The gas company keeps sending me flashy leaflets telling me how it's going to freeze gas prices until at least next November (wow! since the gas is mostly off in the summer anyway) - but fails to mention how prices will shoot up at that time just when you start using more of it.

I've tried to solve the problem by making sure the house is as insulated as possible - attic reinsulated, double glaze windows etc., but if you have an open fireplace (like we do) you might want to consider fitting a chimney cowl that can be closed when the fire's not in use. Rooms with an open fire lose loads of heat and a very annoying draught is created even when the fire's not lit because warm air rises up the chiney, creating a vacuum behind it that sucks up more air from the room. I also close the curtains early in the evening in winter when the heating comes on, it traps the heat better than just glass. Have a timer clock on the heating, thermostatic valves on radiators (so radiators in less used rooms can be turned down a bit).

We burn wood mostly in the open fire - less pollutants and cheaper than coal. Plus wood is easy to come by: I burn all old scrap wood, even bits left over from DIY. A good source are the pallets thrown out and free to take away by many companies. If you have a car, a saw (or better, a chainsaw, but watch the nails!) and some patience, you can keep yourself going nicely with this.

A neighbour of mine built a very efficient boiler from an old round water tank. He created a double-hull, with water circulating between the two hulls. Pipes from this carry water into the house. Pallets are burned inside the inner hull and the whole boiler is sealed off by having the door closed with just a small hatch to assist burning. It heats the water sufficiently for only a little extra energy to be required from gas / oil to bring it up to a good temperature. Solar panels on the roof can be used to a similar effect, and these days they've gotten much more efficient. Another interesting idea I came across was to run copper pipes througha shallow wooden tray. the pipes and inside of the tray are painted black. A sheet of thick perspex placed over catches the sun's energy, black absorbs the energy more efficiently. Again, it only adds a few degrees heat to the water but this is often enough to dramatically reduce the amount of energy needed to bring it to a reasonable heat.

Anyway, just thought you might find it useful!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:55 PM

SOlar thermal heating can raise the temperature of water to the boiling point on a spring day, depending on the angle and the cloud cover.

We had it installed in our first house, long ago, and it saved significant points from our heating and Hot Water bill.

And no -- if you pay attention to the screams in economic circles, daily journalism, political circles, you are clearly not the only one stunned!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Tweed
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:57 PM

I'm stunned that they've been allowed to jack up fuel costs with no restraint from anywhere. I don't know about UK and Europe but we in America used to be somewhat protected from greedy mega corporations and from our own government. This of course has changed drastically since the present regime so forgive us if we sound summat naive. A royal fucking of this calibre is still new to us and we don't know exactly how to handle it just yet. Some of us saw it coming and knew we were gonna be screwed and some saw it coming and they thought they were experiencing some sort of paranoid dementia and that it would go away. But it didn't and now the party's over.   

Just remember:
They can screw you but they can't eat you, as that's still against the law.

I predict a resurgence in the arts as people will be too broke to drive anywhere or buy a 2500 dollar tv set and will be forced to entertain themselves and their friends in the old simple manner again in the kitchen and on the back porches across the land. (It could happen.)

Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Good time to invest in folk music shares, huh, Tweedle?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:19 PM

As long as the big oil companies control the energy market there is a huge problem. They are in business to make money and they have been given free reign. When we conserve energy they jack up the price to keep the cash flowing. There are alternatives to petrol products such as hydrogen but the oil companies control the production and distribution and they have no interest in anything new while they are making a killing on the market with oil based fuels. Only government is big enough to take on these bastards and they instead have become their friend. How can companies that should be suffering as their resource declines make larger and larger profit? As long as corporate greed rules conservation efforts are deemed to fail I am afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:20 PM

deemed should read doomed

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:31 PM

I'm sure seeing a lot of stuff I saw back in the '70s. Like how to drive to save gas and even (gasp!) talk about lowering the speed limit (from 75 to 65). And don't forget Nixon's price freeze.

Truly, I feel sorry for whoever wins the US election this Fall. It will have to be someone of true vision and courage, and I'm not sure any of them are up to it. Of course, the Congress will also have to have the courage to stand up to those who paid them....

Back to the Earth, boys and girls!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:41 PM

Well Rap. some things that you mentioned like improved rail service are part of the solution. Lower speed limits make sense as well but as long as the governments kiss the oil company arse we will continue to be ripped off. Somehow there must be a public saving by conserving and profit and greed are factors that must be controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:04 PM

Sandy, the big oil companies ARE the government these days! ....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:09 PM

When you're standing there at the gas pump [Exxon-Mobil's profits] makes you wanna spit, don't it?

Not half so much as the wasteful dickheads at the next pump filling up their SUV's, Hummers or 500 HP pickup trucks and pissing and moaning about the price of gas....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:10 PM

In Arizona you won't use much fuel for heating but they get you in the summertime, Bill. (By the way, you have to have been a resident in Alaska for one year before you can apply for the Permanent Fund. But it gets worse: if you got here next week, with the application period expiured since March, you couldn't file until opening period in 2010 (would not have been here a year in 2009)and you would get your first check in 2011.)

But come ahead- between the two of you (Hi, Rita!) you would get a healthy chunk of change.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: MaineDog
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:21 PM

I'm not at all surprised, with an oil man as president, what do you expect? I won't be surprised at $ 10 per before he leaves.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Tweed
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:39 PM

Yo Amos,
You might do alright if you invest in Folk Music futures, but the real money is in cheap guitars,decks and back porches, playing cards, checkerboards, and dominos.

These things will see us through til they come off the water injection sonar-fired internal combustion engine and put it in production. ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 May 08 - 09:53 PM

To top it off, Canadians are also being ripped off at the pumps by inaccurate measurements. What you pay for isn't always exactly what you get.....and Surprise! 75% of the time, the error in measurement at the pump always favours the oil companies and not the consumer.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 08 - 01:16 AM

"it only adds a few degrees heat to the water but this is often enough to dramatically reduce the amount of energy needed to bring it to a reasonable heat"

For those with the appropriate maths, it's easy to work out just how much energy an increase in say, 5 deg C per volume of material heated costs in energy - if you are paying for that energy you can work out the monetary value.

"deemed to fail"

Actually not quite the wrong expression ... since the oil companies are working in a way that is designed to fail, the word is not inappropriate, in a satirical sense!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:53 AM

"But it didn't and now the party's over."

And not before time. Do you think you've got some god-given right to burn hydocarbons with gay abandon and pump the air full of crap and still not have to pay a fair price for it?

Forgive me for not feeling much sympathy here but the US and many 'developed' countries are being hoisted by there own petard on this one. Drive a big 4x4 that does 20 miles to the gallon - then I'm glad you're feeling the pinch because it might make you realise the folly of an oil-based economy and spur you on to find a more reasonable alternative way of getting about (perhaps a car/truck/van that does - gasp! - 40 miles to the gallon?).

The fact is this is in the hands of the people. The unregulated capitalist system will respond to your buying habits changing - but you have to change them . Don't wait for the bloke next door to do it - get out there and do the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:48 AM

My little 81 model car does about 50 mpg on the highway - and nearly 40 mpg in the city....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Tweed
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:56 AM

Hmmm..do I quit my job so I don't have to go to work and burn hydrocarbons? That'll show them bastards Stigward. Great idea.

My job btw, is upgrading and installing new underground and aboveground fuel tanks and lines and etc.
I'm doing my part by keeping the product inside the tanks and not leakin' out into the groundwater.

It's not in the hands of the people. They got the people by the balls now.

Work or lose the house. Work or face instant bankruptcy, Work so you can buy gas to get to work.

They got us buddy. Most of us anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:14 AM

Gosh, my 1999 Honda Civic only got 32.33 mpg the last time I filled up and my wife's Element only gets about 25 to 32, depending on the driving she does. The Toyotas and Hondas we've had in our 35 years of marriage have only gotten 30 mpg or better (and we've got the logbooks for each of them to prove it -- we keep track of things like this).

Guess I better run out and buy some sort of huge SUV or something before George Bush kicks me out of the country, huh? And here I was hoping to buy a hybrid or something like that.

Funny, I've never seen any need to put more money into the pockets of the oil companies than I absolutely had to...and that in the US or elsewhere. For that matter, I don't see any need to put money into the pockets of ANYBODY if I don't want or have to do so.

This isn't news. The signs have been there since before the 1970s. The fact that the leaders, not only of the US but of all of the "developed countries" did little or nothing simply demonstrates the blindness of politicians.

Being damned run off the road by SUVs -- and I'm talking things like Ford Expeditions and Chevrolet Yukons -- in both England and Ireland was unsettling to say the least. The number of them on the road in both countries was unsettling, demonstrating some sort of need to ape what Americans were driving. (I will say that my English and Irish friends were as appalled as we were.)

It's been a while since I was in France, but I seem to remember being passed by nearly every car behind us because we were only going around 85 mph. And are there now speed limits on the autobahn?

Let's stop pointing fingers and start solving the problem, goddamit. I'm sick unto death of politicians and people going "shame shame on you" instead of going to work and fixing what's wrong.

Rant off.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:49 PM

Help! I am being held hostage in my home by Exxon.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:57 PM

"Here in the UK we're paying £5/$10 for a gallon of diesel, so stop whinging (you're paying less than most and you should be paying the same) and start looking for an alternative - you're going to need one."

Looks like you and your fellow countrymen have done a super job of finding that alternative!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 08 - 07:16 PM

Toyota Corolla. It runs on the smell of the stuff. It's a 1999, we bought it new, and we've got about 20,000 miles on it. That's about 2,200 miles a year.

According to the "average yearly mileage" I've heard, 10,000+, I'd say we're doing pretty well.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:50 PM

I read all the comments with care......we are certainly going to be doing some energy conservation -- rebuilding our basement for a start and learning sweaters have other uses than when you go outside..! What I find really appalling about all this is that we (still, thank God) have some choices. we make a good income and can move money from ;Pot A to Pot B--what on earth do all those poor souls with fixed incomes do? Feed the kids or stay warm? Stay warm or eat less? these are truly awful choices...............

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:01 AM

They always have been. Take it from one who grew up that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:34 AM

"Hmmm..do I quit my job so I don't have to go to work and burn hydrocarbons? That'll show them bastards Stigward. Great idea."

I'm not suggesting anyone quits their jobs (unless they're a politician), but it is about making lifestyle changes and taking a degree of control and responsibility for our actions.

"It's not in the hands of the people. They got the people by the balls now. "

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Are you really so under the kosh you believe you have no power over these people? If so, that's pretty sad. You live in a capitalist society, and if you and everyone else choose to you can change your consumer habits and force change. It happens - ask Gerald Ratner. Time to feel the joy of consumer empowerment, unless of course you don't want to give up your current lifestyle regardless of the consequences for others.


"Looks like you and your fellow countrymen have done a super job of finding that alternative!"

Mock away, but things are changing down on the ground, for instance there are the seeds of a major shift in the way fuel is consumed as people refine their own under new laws designed to allow this - cutting out the oil companies at a stroke. There is a major shift in the UK to locally grown produce and people are recycling far more than could be imagined a decade ago as councils now provide the means to do so easily.

I drive a car that does virtually 50mpg on a good run, but I only drive it when I must. I use walk and use public transport (which is appalling in this country thanks to Thatcher privatising the buses in 1985 and Major following suit with the railways in the mid 90's much to the disgust of the general public; a policy Labour pledged to reverse and never did). These are small changes to my lifestyle, but if everyone did them it'd make a hell of a difference.

It's in the hands of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 12:47 PM

Complaints about the oil company profits show remarkable ignorance about business.
Who owns the oil and natural gas companies? You do!

Pension Funds- 27%
Mutual Funds, etc.
Individuals- 23%
IRAs- 23%
Institutions, not oil- 5%
Oil Corporate- 1-2%

Who gets hurt if the companies fail to make a profit? You do!

Data by *Sonecon, Sept. 2007; printed in NY Times Magazine, April 27, 2008.
*Economic advisory firm; includes members from Harvard, George Washington, Florida and other universities and analysis staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 May 08 - 03:04 PM

i never claim to be business savvy -- just appalled at the moment.....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 08 - 03:24 PM

We are not exactly in the same state as the UK is. We still have a steady domestic supply of oil and we have refineries which is why we don't pay the same as people in the UK. I'd be interested in seeing just how much of the difference is due to taxes as well as the import costs.

But to the point, I wasn't mocking. Simple statement there. The UK has been paying much more than the United States for years and yet no one has come up with any real alternatives. I guess everyone is waiting for us to get pissed off and do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 04:57 PM

Chief, true about UK (and Euro) prices. I remember filling up the rental car over there and deciding that I should take public transit instead.

However, that "steady domestic supply" depends on supplies from us up here in Canuckland. Now if the Chinese, Indians, etc. come up with better deals----? No, not a tenable scenario. Too much of our business is tied to the States, and we like those Florida-Hawaii vacations too much. And they might bite!

(UK has refineries as well. Could be the tax structure, and I don't know the cost of North Sea production which is from offshore rigs.)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:19 PM

Q, your comment about "remarkable ignorance" is rather elitist. You are making an assumption that people who can't afford to heat their home or run their car are heavily invested in Bay Street. That simply ain't so! The resource belongs to the people, not the corporations, and the little guy is getting screwed!
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:56 PM

Sandy McLean- Do you have an IRA? Have you put money in a savings and loan? Do you buy insurance? Mutual funds? If so, part of the income or interest probably comes from oil and gas corporations.

What are the federal taxes? State taxes?
So, what percentage of the price per barrel actually goes to the resource company?

$50-$60 of that $115 (or whatever)/bbl price is due to futures trading and speculation by financial institutions. Take that off and one is down to maybe $60.
What does the producing country charge? OPEC sets their price, everyone else (including those not members of the Club) is happy to follow suit.
Example: Exxon-Mobil, 2006 Report (rounded off)
Revenue- $370,000 million
Cost-    $183,000 million crude oil and product purchases
Cost Total to Company- $310,000 (includes refining, taxes etc.)
Thus only about 18% was profit in 2006.

We were down to $60 for that barrel of oil actual landed cost. If the oil company gets 18%, that is about $11 per barrel.
$11 out of $115 for each barrel ain't all that much.

I did this in my head; not responsible for errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:17 PM

No IRA or Savings and Loan here. Are these not USA terms? Why exclude futures trading? It's all part of the same pot of greed and insurance companies are high on that list as well! Chavez can sell domestic gas in Venezuala for $0.19 per litre. The oil companies will pay his price for crude even if they scream like stabbed pigs. His domestic market is served first before exports are allowed. He is not my hero but he sees that his countries resources benefit his people. We could learn from him!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:40 AM

So maybe you could live happily on Venezuela's average per capita income of $12,000 (acc. to Venezuela) but only $4800 (World Bank Est.) Gasoline cheap but little else.
UK- $35000 per capita income,
Canada- $38000
US- $46000
Ireland- $46000
Arab Emirates- $55000
All figures 2007 estimates.

Canada Census income figures for family with one child here in Calgary, a city of 1.1 million- $81,000. The average house costs $475,000. Gasoline a minor item for most of us. (But pity the poor truckers, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Slag
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:39 AM

Pray for global warming. It may keep you warm next Winter. But don't hold your breath. So far GW (Global Warming, not the other GW) is a big dud (well, maybe the other GW too).

For immediate action, if every working stiff would stay home from work on one selected day it would send a message to the powers that be to bring their oil prices more into line with the traditional ratio of the past. If it doesn't work, then make it a week! We could turn it around if we would all do this. This would be a time when we could really show an interest in our neighbors and help them through the difficulties that may ensue. Impossible you say? Well, if we don't do something on this order we may all be sitting home anyhow in the not to distant future. Don't think another Great Depression can't happen. If the money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on...

Which leads to my next topic: Real Economics 101
1933, the U.S. ends the gold standard. Federal Reserve notes circulate. Only $1.00 bills (for the most part) have silver backing. Many arguments pro and con have been argued over gold since before the American Civil War. "The inflexibility of the (perceived) intrinsic value of gold has lead (no pun intended)", the opponents say, "to several recessions and also to the Depression." Roosevelt orders a meltdown of all 1933 gold coinage (except for 5 Double Eagles) but throws the public a bone by fixing the price at $32 an ounce. Silver's price is fixed to a permanent ratio of 1:32 but now Uncle Sam can print all the money he wants. Yes I know, it is much more complicated than that but this is Econ 101, remember. The U.S. is saved with Roosevelt's wisdom, work programs, Social Security and World War II.

1964, Kennedy/Johnson and Congress take us off the silver standard in a move which echos what most of the rest of the world has already done. Again arguments pro and con preceded this event. Certain sheikdoms and kingdoms demanded all payments for oil in silver. The U.S. Silver standard was bankrupting many foreign economies including some big U.S. trading partners. Argentina (ironically) and Mexico were constantly going into financial free fall on a regular basis. World Bank didn't like our silver standard. Good bye AU, hello CU.
Before we discuss Copper (CU), note that another brainy thing Jimmy Carter did is make it legal for U.S. citizens to own gold again. This was a mixed bag as it freed U.S. gold from the artificial $32 an ounce and allowed it to seek its own level and thereby establishing a relative "intrinsic" value of the Dollar against gold in the global commodities market. This was one of the things which lead the infamous Hunt brothers to try and corner the silver market which had an astounding effect on the price of silver which is still with us today.

1982 Goodbye Cu, hello Zn. Our last coin of ancient intrinsic value was the U.S. small cent. Trillions of the little things had been minted over the years but the copper cent was too strong against the Dollar. As the price of copper rose ( or rather as the value of the Dollar fell) it became cost prohibitive for the U.S. to continue to mint them. Since 1982 all U.S. cents have been made out of Zinc which has a thin copper plating around it.

What has this got to do with oil? Well, if you stop and reflect for a moment, the thing that has changed is NOT the gold or the silver or the copper, it's the Dollar. Fiat money. Uncle Sam say "Let it be money!" and he wants you to think it's money! It isn't money. It's just the government's word that it's money. The metals all have an intrinsic value. They also have a technical value which is why they are bought and sold in the commodities market. Oil also has a value as a commodity. The difference between the metals and the oil is this. Once the oil is used, it is (for the most part [gasoline]) GONE! There is very little left of any value after it has been used. Most of the metals can be returned to a pristine state and could be reissued as coinage. Because of the nature of oil and it's consumption, it hammers many of the world's economies which are dependent on it. The wise sheiks still want payment in something more stable than the U.S. Dollar. They will take whatever they can get in influence, military hardware and business inroads into this and any country where it is legal to do so. England has just about handed it's existence over to the powers of those certain Middle Eastern Kingdoms and the U.S. is not far behind.

There are measures which this country could take which would turn the situation around but it will not do so. Our sovereignty has been compromised and our "leaders" have all bowed the knee. We are headed toward a one world government and very few Americans are going to like it. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Oh, are oil prices high? The used vegetable oil I use in my car is still free.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:12 AM

Slag, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that late last week Congress approved making pennies and nickels out of steel.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:53 AM

Q,

I think your guess at Big Oil's profit margin is way high. I believe most US oil companies made 5-6% before the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Now they make 6-8%. Compare that to insurance companies and banks and it is similar. Investment bankers and lawyers make obscene profit, most companies do not.

If you consider the oil companies' huge investments, the amount of hard work and danger inherent in the oil business, they probably are underpaid. See Microsoft for comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:42 PM

Oil company profits go up and down, and your overall estimate for profit margin is probably close to the truth if one averages over a ten-year period or so.
My figures used the Exxon-Mobil Annual Report for just one year, 2006, a year with rising prices. If one would look more deeply into the Company. allowances for contingencies, future taxes, repayments planned on old debt, etc., the earnings per share would be much less. After shareholder dividends are paid, the amount of new funds available to the company would be relatively small. I am not an economist, and if results are not in words of one syllable, a get boggled. My figures trying to relate to cost/bbl could be way off.

Some more figures- (selected)
Royal Dutch Shell Annual Report, 2007
Revenue 366,000 million
Earnings- $32,000 million
Earnings per ordinary share- $5.00
Costs and Expenses-?
Dividends paid, common shares- $1.44
Capital investment- $27,000 million (includes depreciation, etc.;, $19 billion actual)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:50 PM

My cookie lifted again after two days. Q
Don't think I will bother with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Just a casual observation as I'm passing through. Whether you use "GW" to mean George W. Bush or Global Warming, it's still a whole lot of hot air. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Exxon has recorded the highest profit in the history of any company in the the world at a time that the industry is troubled!
Gimmee a break!

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:45 PM

So? $2.13 per share for the quarter. $1.76/share previous. Not bad. Shareholders, millions of them, are happy.
110 million shares cost- $9.5 billion (1st. 1/4, 2008)

Microsoft- $1.42/share. Not nearly so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Slag
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Thank you Don_F! I needed that! Yes Rap! As I said, the truth is a much more complicated picture of the interaction of different economies and world events. New tech, mega-disasters, wars, blood diamonds, etc. all help to shape the conditions as they are. However, the purely (!) economic factors I have mentioned have played a huge role in the shape of the current scenario. The U.S. and other democracies need to cut ties with oil-dictatorships, oil-monarchies, oil cartels, etc. as quickly as possible. I would love to see an all out effort made to develop alternate energy sources. Then Hugo and the sheiks could fill their swimming pools with oil and go for a dip and we could put our oil to better use in chemical industries and the like. The atmosphere would be sure to benefit. This is definitely the direction to take.

Steel pennies! At least they will wear longer. Does this mean that our current crisis is equal to what we faced in war-torn 1943 when pennies were first minted in steel (and zinc coated)? Could be!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:27 PM

'Stigweard' - the railway is gradually being re-nationalised by stealth, they're probably half-way there by now but will they finish the job? I read somewhere that the subsidy they get now is 5X what it was before they were privatised - making it all very pointless!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:46 PM

The railway is doing very well on short distance international passenger journeys via the Channel Tunnel, they could do much better on medium distance journeys if they sorted the fare structure out to make it cheaper and thus more competetive with airlines. Also, they should be running through trains from the principalities to further than Paris/Brussels, i.e. Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow/Edinburgh/Newcastle/York/
Leeds - Italy/Germany/Switzerland/Austria.

There is also huge scope for improved through freight services as they are too slow at present, being held up by protracted customs checks at international borders as well as locomotive changes as there are insufficent multi-voltage loco's to work throughout on each countries' different electrification systems using different voltages. Juggernauts seem to be able to drift through effortlessly although I am not sure what the position is with driver's working hours!

The time was never riper than at present for these changes as the railways are in a prime position to compete with air/road because of the increasing costs in fuel & pollution. It just has to be done, the sooner the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:49 PM

THe profit margins are much higher than they are admitting. The problem is in the way things are being laid down in the books. Instead of just saying that the overhead to produce 1 gallon of gasoline is $2.00, tax is $(whatever) and we make $.08 per gallon the companies have fragmented themselves.

(Exxon)Drilling Company charges the (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel (with a small profit per gallon). (Exxon)Sea River Shipping (the company that now owns the Exxon fleet, including the former Exxon Valdez) charges (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel to transport it (with a small profit per barrel), The (Exxon)Refining Company charges the (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel (with a small profit per gallon) for processing/refining the crude. The(Exxon)Oil Company then sells it to your gas station at the total of these costs plus their own "small profit" to which the gas stations add $.02 to $.03 per gallon. In this way it looks like Exxon Oil Co. is only making a small profit pre gallon when in fact a large percentage of the price goes to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:31 PM

What a great idea! Do you think I could get it to work for me?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest is Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:32 PM

All profits, regardless of number of subsidiary operations, upstream, downstream, etc., all come together in the Annual Reports.
See figures posted 11 May 08 for 2006. The net income was $39,500,000 million, or $6.68 / share.

Long term obligations (pensions, etc.), reserves for the future, etc., haven't been discussed yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:55 AM

Rail - well they put in a new line - ha! the rails were there most of the way.... out to Brisbane Airport (both Intl & Domestic). The fare is $10 one way - no discounts - I can't afford it - nearly same cost as taxi from here. Similar distance journeys otherwise cost just a few dollars - half for pensioners. Profit!!!! Funny, but That Name - used for the 'service' is the sponsor of the traffic copter on one TV News channel - now THAT ain't cheap....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 May 08 - 09:26 AM

Chief Chaos is correct, they are making plenty of money.

Google Finance Stats on Exxon

Their Return On Equity last year AFTER all costs, pigout CEO salaries, etc. was 34%. That is very high--I think typical corporate profits tend to run more like 12%. Means for every dollar of assets, they got back 34 cents last year. Whereas you got 4% on your CDs or whatever.

The oil companies have deliberately underinvested in exploration and refineries and otherwise been causative of this mess. But what is really sending oil sky high is the devaluation of our currency(ies) and that can be laid squarely at the feet of the eejits running our government and banks.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:06 PM

From the website linked in the last post, Exxon-Mobil had a TTM (trailing twelve months) profit of 9.75%. If people think that is worth whining about, fine. Either that of perhaps you should buy their stock. At any rate, it ain't no 43% or even 34%, it is 9.75% in the last twelve months, which is after they paid a huge amount in federal taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest is Q
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:35 PM

Exxon-Mobil Annual Report 2006-
http://www.exxonmobil.com/corporate/files/corporate/XOM_2006_SAR.pdf

Royal Dutch Shell Annual Report 2007
http://www.shell.com/home/content/media/reports_publications/dir_reports_publications_31032008.html
Revenue- 355,782 million
Income- 31,926 million
Basic earnings/share- $5.00

pdq is correct. It pays to put profit figures in context, not take isolated numbers from some news blog, etc. The annual reports, issued to every common share holder, are worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 13 May 08 - 09:17 PM

You're fooling only yourself if you think the actual cost for pumping a barrel of oil actually doubled over the last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:25 AM

Jim - I agree with you totally about the railways. The price of fares are putting people off the railways even though the service has improved - Manchester - London in under two hours. However, it's at a cost. I was in London and found myself back at the train station an hour before my booked train was due to leave. I went to change the booking and they wanted an additional £109 to go an hour early. I was stunned; the train left the station with empty seats and I had to wait an extra hour and eventually went home on packed commuter train. A fiasco.

It's going to take a government with balls to sport out the railways, and I suspect this lot isn't the one and if the bleedin' Tories get in then that'll be that, as they are so utterly against any sort of state control (although I believe even Thatcher thought that rail privatisation was a step too far - but Major didn't).

It's like the NHS in that it has to be seen as a service for the people, not to turn a profit. I mean, what politician expects a financial return when they stick a £25k bomb on a mud hut full of kids in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 14 May 08 - 12:02 PM

Net profit margin is a helpful figure regarding retail outfits, but a figure that gets manipulated by accountants so creatively that it is not helpful in comparing the total profitability of companies. The harder number is the return on equity.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 08 - 12:14 PM

CNN reported today that no matter what YOU think, the price of oil has actually gone down once we make 'seasonal' adjustments.


so there.

who are you going to believe? Them or your lying eyes?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:23 AM

"20 miles a gallon? There's the problem in a nutshell - complete disregard for the fact the resource you're using is finite. Buy a more efficient car for a start."

So simple, isn't it Stig.

When you're sitting up there, on your high moral pinnacle, telling us stupid lower orders how WE ought to behave, without having the slightest idea of the circumstances of those you harangue, it must make you feel SO BIG, and GOOD, and CLEVER.

Some of us have cars with large engines for very good reasons. My 2.9 litre (saloon, not 4x4) is more economical when towing a caravan than a 2.0litre, though it is more thirsty when not towing.

Even so, I would now rather have the smaller one. GUESS WHAT! Nobody wants to buy my large but elderly car, and I couldn't afford to buy another for what I would get anyway.

I have to have a car because my journey to work is 30 miles at right angles to the direction of travel of local railways.

So perhaps you would, in your infinite wisdom, suggest a way in which I might follow your example.

Alternatively, you could just get over your own cleverness, and recognise that some may not be as well off as you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:53 AM

We cannot buy cars that get 50mpg in the US. We could once--I had one twenty odd years ago that averaged more than 55mpg, city and highway combined. Funny that with all the improvements in every kind of technology, these tiny new cars that are allegedly more fuel efficient only promise 30-35mpg--

Truth be told, all you UKers, 20mpg is pretty good mileage for a run of the mill American car--it is way more than most of the SUVs can get, even on a good day--some, such as the still ubiquitous Chevy Suburban,are rated 9mph/city, 13mph/hwy--which means that leadfoot, out-of-tune, with low air in the tires probably gets 5 or 6--

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:31 AM

M Ted

that's why sales of imported cars have risen and why US car workers jobs have been steadily declining.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:42 AM

No form of automobile is the answer for a sustainable future - build railways (where needed) and don't live too far from them!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:47 AM

"When you're sitting up there, on your high moral pinnacle, telling us stupid lower orders how WE ought to behave, without having the slightest idea of the circumstances of those you harangue, it must make you feel SO BIG, and GOOD, and CLEVER.

Alternatively, you could just get over your own cleverness, and recognise that some may not be as well off as you."

Obviously touched a nerve there . . . nice to see hypocrisy raising it's ugly head as you harangue me without knowing my circumstances.

If you can afford to pay for the petrol to go caravanning around then you're better off than I am. I'm sitting working my buttocks off here struggling to make my fucking mortgage payments because some cock in the US of A saw a way to make a few bucks from all those poor souls who wanted buy into the sham of the American Dream and sod the consequences for everyone else - which happen to be significant in my line of work as a designer as the downturn caused by the subprime fiasco has crossed the Atlantic takes hold. Not your fault I grant, but don't slate me for doing my bit for the planet in the meantime. Paint yourself as the deserving poor if you wish, but I'm getting the sense some of you statesiders feel pretty powerless in the face of the big business society you voted for and that must hurt.

But of course you're not powerless, because you are a consumer in an economy that relies on consumption. The power, ultimately rests with the individual who can make an informed choice about the type of vehicle they buy and the way they live their life. These choices dictate the market and this so if you don't buy a wasteful vehicle and buy one that is more efficient then the makers will supply those cars.

Don - your work commute entails a 60-mile round trip in a guzzling car. As Jim said above this is not going to be sustainable in the future and so we all need to change. I personally don't believe we should abandon our cars and ride around on a donkey, but we need to change our habits to reflect the current problems we face collectively. 5-6 miles per gallon? That is pathetic and utterly unsustainable and cars of this ilk should simply be taken off the road. Bleedin' fire engines do better mpg than that.

As I said in my last post the choice is yours and mine as to how we deal with the oil crisis and the environmental problems facing the world. You can take offence from what I said all you want (none was intended) but at least take some responsibility for your actions one way or the other, as I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:14 AM

"but I'm getting the sense some of you statesiders feel pretty powerless in the face of the big business society you voted for and that must hurt"

I live in KENT, UK, which kind of proves my point about you knowing nothing of my circumstances.

I go caravanning because, if I didn't I could not afford a holiday at all.....EVER!

I haven't been further than Sidmouth in 20 years, and that far only once a year, and I'm denied even that this year because of the escalating cost of living.

I DON'T have the choices you suggest.

I don't LIVE, I EXIST, or more accurately I SUBSIST.

I thought I had made provision for retirement, then New Labour came on the scene and Gordon (The prudent) Brown prudently took away half of my pension.

I face the prospect of working until I am in my eighties, not for the little luxuries, but for the necessities of life.

Offence? You bet I take offence when someone who can't even be arsed to find out which side of the Atlantic I'm on, sets himself up to sit in moral judgement of my way of life (if I may laughingly call it that).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:23 AM

P.S. I don't even have a mortgage, my house is rented, which means that when you have finally paid of your mortgage, I will still be having to find hundreds of pounds per month for the rest of my life.

Do however tell this poor hypocrite just how you would go about buying any kind of vehicle without money.

After paying all my bills I have approximately £25 per week to cover clothing, car maintenance, entertainment and any unexpected expenses.

I await the revelations of your superior intellect.

Of course I could buy a Dinky Toy car, but I DON'T think it would get me to work, and then I wouldn't be able even to pay my bills, let alone anything else.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:52 PM

"Offence? You bet I take offence when someone who can't even be arsed to find out which side of the Atlantic I'm on, sets himself up to sit in moral judgement of my way of life (if I may laughingly call it that)."

Fair cop on the assumption - I apologise for this mistake and can assure you I was not sitting in moral judgement on any aspect of your life. I forget there are so many car-centric people in this country too. However, despite their guzzlers many people in the US have a case to make for needing a car for even the most basic of journeys. A friend of mine has moved to Florida and says the country has been built with cars in mind - you need one to get to the shops, pictures etc. Seeing as you live here I'm even more stunned you don't seem aware of the intense debate we are having in this country.

"I await the revelations of your superior intellect."

No offence, but fuck you. I won't apologise for my stance on this, and the inference from you it's some sort of chattering classes trend being foisted on a downtrodden underclass is a cop-out argument. You're dead wrong on that one son - you've no idea where I come from either and your assumptions are way wide of the mark. You might not give two shades of shit for anyone else but I can and will do my part for the sake of the generations following the fuck-up the previous ones have left us with.

"I face the prospect of working until I am in my eighties, not for the little luxuries, but for the necessities of life."

You and me both. There's always someone better or worse off than yourself, always some injustice, some excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:30 PM

Read the whole thing you ass, and stop cherrypicking the bits you like.

I have told you that my job is thirty miles from home with no public transport connection, as is the case with many rural dwellers.

I don't have an excuse for using a car, I have a reason, and much as I would like to own one that uses less fuel, as I have already said, you can't buy without money.

You have lots of trite little put-downs, but bugger all in the way of answers, so don't judge me.

Out of here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I could take public transportation to work- but it is not practical.

Ignoring my hours ( based on satellite visibility, not normal time) I would have to
1. take the bus to the metro stop
2. take Metro to National Airport
3. take a flight to Dulles airport
4. take a shuttle bus to the nearest hotel
5. walk the remaing 2 miles to work


Instead, I drive the 42 miles, costing me 2- 2.5 gallons of gas each way.

Sure, I can buy a new car that would cut the gas in half- as soon as someone gives me $20-30,000 extra- my car is paid off.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:51 PM

"You have lots of trite little put-downs, but bugger all in the way of answers, so don't judge me."

For the last time Don: I'm not judging you.

Answers? I told you what I do, but you know what? You're right. I don't have answers for every person in every circumstance so you're right, and I'm wrong. I'll keep my fat pompus mouth shut and everyone can go to hell in a handbasket. It's been too long a week and I'm going for an ale.

Have a good weekend and take care.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:51 PM

It hit $127 a barrel today as GWB is in Saudi Arabia playing with the Kin'gs Arabian horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:24 PM

Little teeny niggling ways to conserve.




take stairs, not elevator.

use normal doors and not electric.

seek the local authority/corporations to turn off sodium and mercury lights that serve no purpose.

direct central air conditioning only to needed areas.




there have to be thousands of little things that add up

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest is Q
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:19 PM

Many myths about mpg, automatic vs. manual, size of power plant, etc.
Government test figures at
Fuel Economy

Here in western Canada, weekend drives of 100-300 miles or more are not uncommon, to visit parents, kids, the farm, the vacation property, the ski resort, etc., often hauling several people, their gear and supplies. Very small cars are usually a second car, used in town only.
Note- almost no difference between automatic and manual, automatic now often offers slightly better mileage. A couple of pick-ups and SUVs are listed; very popular and useful here. U. S. data are in miles per gallon, you will have to do the conversion to liters.

A sampling:
Toyota Prius -    city 48 mpg, hwy 45mpg
Toyota Corolla - city 26, hwy 35
Toyota Camry 2.4l - city 21, hwy 31
Toyota Tundra 4.7l -   city 13, hwy 16 -4WD pick-up
Toyota 4-runner, 3.5l - city 19, hwy 28 -4WD SUV

Chevrolet Arco 1.6l - city 24, hwy 34; manual, auto 23-32
Chev Malibu 4cl auto - city 22, hwy 32
Chev Silverado 5.3l - City 14, hwy 19 -4WD pick-up

Ford Fusion 2.3l - City 20, hwy 29 (auto or manual)
Ford Focus 2l - City 24, hwy 35 (manual), city 24, hwy 33 (auto)
Ford Taurus 3.5l - City 17, hwy 24 -AWD

Audi A3 2l - city 22, hwy 29

BMW 328 3l - city 19, hwy 28
MINI Cooper 1.6l - city 26, hwy 34

Honda Civic Hybrid 1.3l - City 40, hwy 45

Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7l, 6cl - City 15, hwy 19 -4WD SUV

Smart car   -       City 33, hwy 41

Porsche Carrera 3.6l - City 18, hwy 26   

The so-called Smart car seems to be a bad choice; both Honda and Toyota have models that do better, and are safer- the Smart car should not be allowed on the highway. There ae a couple of sports car enthusiasts in the neighborhood who have Carreras as second cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:21 PM

M'sieu Ted, a friend of mine in Juneau has a VW Jetta diesel that gets 52 mpg.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:37 PM

"Toyota Tundra 4.7l -   city 13, hwy 16 -4WD pick-up"

Well, my 1987 GMC Suburban gets 13.8 day in and day out. I bought it four years ago and it has never failed to run just fine. It is the dreaded blood enemy of the Environmentalists, yes a 3/4 ton 4X4 that holds a 4x8 foot sheet of plywood in the back storage are. Note: same mileage as this new Toyota with a 4.71 liter engine, the GMC 350 is also called a 5.7 liter.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:55 PM

Good lord. I wouldn't be bragging about 13 mpg. My 65 Mustang got 17- and that was bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:07 PM

That was 13.8, Ebbie, and I doubt that a '65 Mustang is capable of off-roading or carrying a stack of sheetrock in the back area. My 'burb is also piad for and worth about 10% as much as the Toyota Tundra "Q" mentioned. (smile)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:53 PM

Yes, that Tundra is quite the vehicle. I looked it up because the guy across the street just bought one to replace his old Chevy pick-up.

2005 VW Jetta diesel, 1.9l - City 32, Hwy 41. No longer available in the U. S; I understand because of emission problems.
Your Juneau friend is adding a bit of imaginary mileage.

2008 VW Jetta 2l, 4cyl - City 22, hwy 29
2008 VW Jetta 2.5l, 5 cyl - City 21, hwy 29.

A fellow in the next block just bought a VW Touareg SUV with all the bells and whistles- 10 cyl, 5 liter diesel. Set him back about $60,000. City 15, hwy 20 mpg. Definitely not reminiscent of the Beetle.
The Touareg also comes in a 6 cyl, 3.6 liter gasoline model; City 14, Hwy 20.
I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1995, 6 cyl 3.7l gas, which does better in the city, and is (was) much more reasonable in price. I bought it in 1996, ex-lease. It hauls the family, dogs, and lots of junk, and will probably do me for another 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:57 AM

Guam

Gasoline - $4.36 a gallon
Diesel - $4.96 a gallon
Biodiesel - $3.60 a gallon
Used vegetable oil - Free for the collecting. Of course you need a filtration system and filters but then the road is yours... if you drive a diesel.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:54 AM

If you folks think Americans could choose to buy more fuel efficient cars if they wanted to, check this: European variants of US cars average 60% better gas mileage.

The thing is, most Americans don't realize that this is true, unless they've rented their favorite American cars while overseas, and been dumbfounded to discover that they were faster, handled better, and got way better gas mileage.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:13 AM

Gas in Saudi Arabia is 65 cents a gallon. I advocate a multi-pronged program. First, shitcan the shrub and his cronies, then nationalize the oil industry. Next let's invade Saudi Arabia and Kuwait ourselves! That will get the army out of Iraq and everybody wants that! Then we have a National holiday where Sheiks and Oil company execs are allotted to every city around the country and then are strung up by their balls. Everyone gets to take a whack at them like a live pinata until their scrotums snap.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:23 PM

Nice thought, Spaw, but I don't think we need to go to all that trouble--we've got an army and a navy over there already, why not just charge them all (Iraq, Iran, and the Saudis) a dollar a barrel to make sure that their oil gets to wherever it's supposed to, without any"trouble". Just to start, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:26 PM

Many European cars have less in the way of emission-pollution add-ons than American-Canadian cars. In Germany I remember getting a rental model 'like mine at home,' and driving out of the lot. As I applied gas to enter the street, I spun the rear wheels- a bit of shock.
In Mexico, some years ago, our rental car had no choking capability. At our motels, we were woken up in the mornings by people starting up their cars and letting them run. Only a few models had choking built in. Moreover, the gasoline was lower in octane. Probably changed by now.

Oh, sure, Catspaw. The hundreds of thousands of oil company employees will love that. And all of the investors who have energy stocks, either on their own or in their pension funds or savings and loan portfolios or bank savings will be poorhouse bound.

Since Canada is now a major supplier of both oil and gas to the United States, I suppose you will take it over too. And Mexico. And Nigeria. And --

U. S. Imports March 2008

From Canada, 1,727 million bbls
From Saudi Arabia, 1,535 million bbls
From Mexico, 1,232 million bbls
From Nigeria, 1,138 million bbls
From Venezuela, 858 million bbls
From Iraq, 773 million bbls.

Energy information from the U. S. Government, Energy Information Administration.

Oh, yes, you would have to fight off the Chinese, Indians and other large and growing consumers.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:44 PM

The United States imports large quantities of refined products as well as crude. Compare with figures posted above.

Total imports, March, 2008

From Canada, 2,303,000 bbls/day
From Saudi Arabia, 1,542,000 bbls/day
From Mexico, 1,351,000 bbls/day

Why not refine at home? It is cheaper to refine abroad; the very large new refineries are all being constructed outside of the United States.
The figures in the first post also are in bbls/day

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:10 PM

Back in the 1970s the decision was made in the US to sacrifice performance and fuel economy in order to reduce specific types of emissions.


I want to know why I can't find a William Roadster... ( ca 1962-64 steam, cold start to 60 MPH in 90 seconds, burns any liquid that will burn- butter, scotch, rubbing alcohol,,,)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:29 PM

We've checked the prices -- we are converting to GAS!!! From the time we got the offer from our oil dealer to lock in prices at $3.99 to about five days later while we were still discussing it, the lock n price was $4.20!!!!!! We are insulating, tightening down, considering getting a wood stove back ( we got rid of two 20 years ago) and we are walking away from oil. My natural gas company tells me that the gas comes from the US or Canada - we are unlikely to be at war with either..........

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:29 PM

Gas in a very clean fuel to use, you won't be disappointed with its quality. The price, however, no one can guarantee.
We have used it for some sixty years (Canada). For a short time we has fuel oil to heat an apartment in Illinois. The large tank was a nuisance and the odor (stink!) was sickening. But that was many years ago, fuel oils may be better now.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:55 PM

TRUBRIT

Eat lots of beans!