BS: Israel's Next War.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 May 08 - 11:05 PM

During his term of office.

               Now, if think he's trying to revive some kind of a dialogue for the purpose of resolving the ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:58 PM

During his term of office or now?

                                     SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:38 PM

Sol--I disagree on a couple of points. I agree that George W. Bush has been a very bad president, but I think Ronald Reagan was worse.

                   As far a Jimmy Carter, I have a lot of respect for him and I think he was a victim of circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:32 PM

Carter deserves to have mud slung at him. His Arab friends are stuffing his pockets with money while we are paying over $4 a gallon to them for gas. Americans have the right to be outraged at this man who is selling his soul to the very people who danced in the street when the twin towers fell. George W. Bush is the worst president we ever had in the history of this great nation but the peanut farmer from Plains, GA. ranks a very close second.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:11 PM

And while all of this is going on, everybody's throwing mud at Jimmy Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:03 PM

The narrative of Israel is different from the reality. The "miracles" are easily explained.


Its easy to make the desert bloom at the expense of the water tables. Easy but not sustainable. Education is also pretty easy with all that aid from abroad and a relatively small population

Israel is not fully a democracy. Not everyone can vote and not all votes are equal.

I question the wisdom of a theocratically based European Colony in the middle east. Especially one that ignores the crucial American value of "all men created equal with inalienable rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:12 PM

Ann addendum--PEace:   I would be more than happy to hear a reasoned discourse from the people mentioned before. Diatribes do not cut it. Your comments obviate oppositional commentary. Reasoned discourse is the proper way to go in a public forum.

Hopefully, this is one and not like the crazies that write Letters to Editors in the Tabloids---think Steve Allen here and his great take on them


BH

\

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:09 PM

Peace---now there is a good idea. Interestingly, these posters never address the comments. They just keep on with their own diatribes. Perhaps they do not realize that discourse means differing opinions openly discussed in an intelligent manner and forum.

Best to end it now until and unless we can get some proper discourse.

I doubt that these folks would do well on a campaign trail---not open to any other person than their own thoughts.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I'd suggest that the thread be completely abandoned by people who don't hate Israel or Jews. Then the people who do will be able to have reasoned discourse amongst themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:02 PM

Oh, boy, sounds like a real Zionist here. Let's just euthanize the Palestinians (and Syrians while we are at it) and he would be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:36 PM

Q--for you a thought as well. YOu state--"...Syria is justifiably offended". Syria being offended is something that is oxymoronic. Syria offends the world and subjugate(s)(d) Lebanon. Let me see if I understand---does that equate with Hitler being offended by resistance from the civilized world? Or Attila?

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:00 PM

IFOR: It seems you see only one side and see it like the man in the joke that Jon Stuart used the other night about a politician---"...that is my opiinion and it is the right one".

       Hard to have a discourse with someone who only sees their opinions as the correct ones and claim them to be fact.

       I, for one, listened to the vote by the UN that fateful evening. I, for one, heard Israel declare statehood when the Brits pulled out. I, for one, also listened to the news of the attacks from all of its "neighbors". How the Israelis won---what do you think--do you believe in miracles?

      Do not forget one thing---there was a Palestinian state under the partition. It was the Palestinians for foreswore it due to the promises of their --later unwelcoming--Arab neighbors.

       Perhaps if this list knew a bit of your background---as they do mine from my notes---it might be better understood from whence you are coming with your comments.

       By the way--David Ben Gurion stated, quite honestly,"... that if he were in the unenviable position of having left and then realizing we did (Israel) I too would resort to means".(paraphrase)


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:32 PM

.
The founding of that country was based on the international crime of ethnic cleansing.The indiginous population of Palestine was forced out of its homes and homeland through terror and decades after its removal the Palestinian people and their children and grandchildren still have no right of return.
And it has to be said the Israeli state with all its militaristic and bullying swagger shows every sign of being increasingly corrupted by the past 60 years of ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the growing brutality of Israeli life.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:17 PM

An after thought re: the 1967 war. I had the pleasure of interviewing Michael Oren the author of a book on the subject a while back and you will find there how the pre-emptiveness by Israel was able to stop the attacks by Egypt and Syria who had fallen out with each other even before the battle was joined at their instigation.

The interview was on my TABLETALK program on WFDU in NJ and re-broadcast on the occasion of the 60th Bday commemorations of the State of Israel.

Mr. Oren is an American who lives and teaches in Israel and also fears for the lives of his children each day as they ride their buses to school given the suicide bombers of the amenable and amiable Israeli neighbors.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:09 PM

Malta has already surrendered!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:04 PM

Well,GUEST IFOR, a few comments in regard to your post which seems to see only black and white and no shades of gray.

If you read my note you will note that I recommended the book "1948" since it shows--fairly---both sides of the issue (and written by an Israeli).

The UN partitioned the land at the end of the British Mandate. Partition would have worked--hopefully--had the Arab nations not attacked. That they lost and also lost land was their own (un)doing. Palestinans left, at first, on their own accord with the thought of returning when the "Zionist terrorists" were pushed into the sea. How unfortunate that it did not work out that way.

Later comes the 1967 war, then the Yom Kippor war. Let me ask---who started those battles?

Moving to your Gaza comments. The Israelis left unequivocally. What happened ---Palestinians fought amongst themselves and then started shelling Israel. Even Egypt was, justifiably, incensed and forbade entry into their nation at that point.

Let us move to another thought now. Nuclear proliferation. Up to this point only Israel has kept Iraq, Syria, and Iran from those WMDs. Best thank your lucky stars for that. The USSR was a nation that one could deal with.

As to the comments by some other posters---Golan Hts. Again--who started that fiasco (and by the way there is a wonderful film on the subject of the reason they lost it---THE IMPOSSIBLE SPY).(The spy in question is now long deceased since he was executed by the Syrians and his body has still not been returned to Israel.

As to dual citizenship. To the best of my knowledge quite a few nations allow that---Austria is one that I know of (and I turned it down given my personal history with that wonderful place which was so welcoming to Jews in the 1930s and on).

   My own view is that peace is possible--it always is if there is understanding on all sides and nations put self-interest aside in the quest for it. So far it has not happened but it seems that now even Saudi Arabia is softening its position given their problems with some of their brethren. Jordan and only Jordan saw in advance the benefit of a mutual relationship with Israel---and wanted the Palestenians out of Jordan proper. Of course King Abdullah was assassinated So much for the Arab brotherhood.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 02:54 PM

Israel, by going far beyond what the UN Commission and agreements of the 1940s called for. The Zionists, with western capital, refuse to recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinians. The call for continued migration from the States and Canada (see the NY Times adv. referenced above) and the holding of dual citizenships is obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 08 - 02:20 PM

"Not only Syria, which lost most of the Heights in 1967, but the entire Middle East, is justifiably offended."

And who started that war?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 May 08 - 02:18 PM

Reply To Bill Hahn
How can you write that Israel created a democratic state in the Middle East?
The founding of the state of Israel was based on the forced ethnic cleansing of many of the original residents of Palestine....some hundreds of thousands were forced out at the point of a gun or terrorised into leaving.
Their land was stolen and continues to be stolen.Palestinian villages were erased and their fields,olive groves and farms bulldozed.Thousands of Palestinian houses have been destroyed by Israeli armoured bulldozers and the whole of the occupied West Bnk is under lock down with an apartheid style wall separating Palestinians from their farms and preventing them moving freely to and from local towns and villages.
And of course Palestinians do not have the civil rights or human rights enjoyed by Israeli citizens.In effect they are third class non citizens in the land of their birth. Many Palestinian males have been imprisoned at one time or another and thousands are in prison at the time of writing.
Gaza itself is a starving open prison of around a million people with access and exits blocked by the Israeli military.
To call Israel a democracy flies in the face reality!
It is a settler colonial state with more in common with the apartheid state of South Africa.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: bankley
Date: 11 May 08 - 01:20 PM

Cowboys and "Palest-Indians".... about sums it up

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 12:57 PM

Two-page color advs. in the New York Times Magazine ask for more settlers from the States- "No one belongs here more than you."
The spread in the April 27, issue features a "cowboy," whose ranch is in the disputed Golan Heights. Not only Syria, which lost most of the Heights in 1967, but the entire Middle East, is justifiably offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: van lingle
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:22 AM

Right Q, they seem to give the possibility of a Palestinian state just enough lip service and lukewarm concessions to keep the cash flowing from the U.S. and sadly presidential aspirants, in this country, seem to avoid the topic like the plague.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: bankley
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:52 AM

Misery-ell....   remember Rachel Corrie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:16 PM

Israel will not rest until all the West Bank is in their hands. They may talk about the possibility of a Palestinian nation, but talk only. Meanwhile the frustrated and dispairing Palestinians will mount 'terrorist' actions. Conflict will continue well into the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:45 PM

Well put LH.

Any quote by Dubya (arguably the worst president in the nation's history) is usually something to be avoided---hell, he thinks the mission was accomplished as I recall---and dressing like a Top Gun (while having stayed out of the action along w/ his VP during our other needless conflict).

As to the comments re; Israel and Fundementalists---read the new book "1948" it puts the whole issue in context and places blame on many sides. One thing is certain though---the Arab nations were, as usual, disorganized and only thinking of their individual goals (with the exception of Abdullah of Jordan).   Other certain things are that:

Israel created a democratic state in the Middle East
The desert did bloom
Education gave us some world class scientists and professionals
3d World nations rcvd technical aid in agriculture and other areas.

SO--the question now is---what happened prior to that? Besides a lot of sand piling up and the oil rich nations living---as they still are---high off the hog (which is not Kosher--for Jews or Arabs).

Salaam and Shalom

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:14 PM

A George Bush jr. quote as a source on a Mudcat thread?

I never would'a thunk it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:12 PM

No one hates the exercise of his own free will. To him that is "freedom". All people hate it when someone else gets in the way of them exercising their own free will...or gets in the way of them living their own way of life...or gets in the way of them controlling things in their own part of the world as they would wish to.

The terrorists who hate America hate America because they see America as a political/military/industrial force that is dominating the regions where they live, attacking their people, killing their people, invading their lands, stealing their resources, and threatening their self-rule and their entire way of life. And that is correct! America is doing that.

That is why they hate America, NOT because America has "freedom" or "democracy"...because America has repeatedly done them harm.

And anyone who can't see it, well, that's pretty sad.

As to the other stuff here...no comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 May 08 - 01:51 PM

Jeeze, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 08 - 01:32 PM

"Most Israelis reacted with shock and horror when Dvir and Morag's plan was revealed—but a small minority refused to condemn them."

Would that this was also so among their enemies.

Note the date on the posted item: April 5 2005
It must be time for a Jew bashing thread, hasn't been one in a while.

Subject: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 May 08 - 12:52 PM

Mr Bush and others say that Palestinians and other "terrorists" "Hate our way of life" "Hate democracy" But looking at people like these in the documentary, is there not a simpler reason?

American fundamentalists I know, also say that they are terrorist because they are Muslim and that Christians and Jews are better.

Frontline Program.