BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...

Subject: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 08 - 08:29 PM

Okay, here is the situation...

The P-Vine grew tired of her old pudder 'cause she and the pudder were havin' some issues so she bought a mail order Dell, with Vista, and stuck the cranky one in the closet...

Then she found out that her old Qyicken books program didn't wnat5 to work with it but we fixed that... Well, not exactly we, but the $45 hour pudder guy but then we couldn't get our "brand new" H-Packard printer to work with either so...

Now the P-Vine wants me to give her my ol' e-machine pudder in exchange fir her new Dell with a Vista running system an' I'm like thinkin' that if the Vista pudder won't fo jack for her then it won't fo jack for me... Mind you, all I do is email and arguin' with fellow Mudders but the entire idea of swappin' pudders is kinda like swappin' wives... I know what I got with this one... Know what I mean???

Now I ain't into swapping wives... Okay, whoever is marries to Morgan Fairchild, email me... Maybe we could like swap fir a weekend... No, forget it... I'm stickin' wtih what I got but back to pudders???

Is it an okay idea to take her new pudder with Vista and give her my beat up e-moochine with XP???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 08 - 08:38 PM

Is this a computer that can also run with XP-Pro? Some of them are dedicated to the OS, but check with Dell. If you can, get rid of Vista and put in the last XP (there's a third service pack out now, so it will take a little updating, but it is still much nicer to work with.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 08 - 08:44 PM

Yeah, that would be great but unless I hired an attorney to sue Dell to take it back or send me XP then they ain't too interested... We already told 'um we wnated XP and they quoted us a price which was over a $100!!!

I donno???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Melissa
Date: 10 May 08 - 08:59 PM

my new computer came with Vista and it's fine for me.
One thing I do like about the machine is that the standard player has a clicky to change tempo (without changing key) which is handy for slowing music down.

Pleasing your P-Vine seems like a pretty good idea and since you don't use your computer for a bunch of fancy stuff, a switch-over shouldn't be too stressful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 May 08 - 09:14 PM

If you ordered XP, I'd dump on Dell about why it wasn't delivered on the machine.

XP is 'way superior to Vista.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 08 - 09:18 PM

When you buy a new machine now, you get Vista, and anything else costs.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:35 PM

It is well worth 'over $100' to keep a good system which you know how to use. People spend that for dinner sometimes - say a family birthday dinner or graduation party.

Send out for Kentucky Fried for the next big party and buy the XP.

(We all know you are a retired astrophysicist, Bobert.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 08 - 12:44 AM

I'd bug Dell about getting the operating system you wanted. Trouble is, the machine you have probably has all of the wrong drivers. It will take a while to get it "fixed" even if it is XP compatible.

Vista sucks. And it doesn't play well with older devices and software. You also end up having to be careful of software designed to go with Vista. I dumped my newest version of Nero (8) because it had all sorts of what amounted to spyware. It wanted to catalog every file in the computer, something to do with the "media center" aspect of the newer systems. It's a pain and slows the computer way down. It doesn't work with some of my older programs.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 08 - 01:37 AM

You guys!! Whyncha get ver all that grief and get yourself a Macbook??


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 May 08 - 02:54 AM

A very important consideration in whether you can survive with the Vista machine is what productivity programs do you have on both the WinXP and the new Vista machine.

For the casual user (also sometimes pronounced IDIOT, but that's really a term of endearment in this case) Vista is fine. The OFFICE SUITES commonly distributed with the machine that come with Vista are "problematical." If you're a Chongo, and only write blackmail letters, or a kid who's only need is to plagiarize a website for a class paper, Word 2007 is just marvelous. If you want to write your autobiography and DON'T WANT IT plastered full of junk that the publishers will sh*t on, it's unusable.

So far as I've been able to tell, the other programs in Office 2007 Professional are "usable with effort," but they've really crapped on Word. Some functions I've considered critical to my use simply don't exist in Office 2007, much less work as in older versions; and there are not alternate methods to produce the results needed. Some features that required ONE MENU in older versions require FIVE OR MORE separate menus located randomly - and sometimes deep down - on the "new toolbars."

Word 2002, which was part of the "Office XP" suite that came on my WinXP Pro machine had progressively "lost functions" due to WinXP "patches" to the point that I'm now trying to figure out Office 2007. Word 2003 (Office 2003 Professional) that came on Lin's WinXP Pro machine still seems "functional."

Note that I do have Office 2007 Professional on my main WinXP Pro desktop and on a Vista Pro laptop. My REAL PROBLEMS are with Office 2007, although Vista gets pretty nasty about some things too. (I don't really need to print from the laptop to the printer on her machine; and I can thumb-drive the file transfers: but ... )

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:26 AM

First of all, we knew the new one was coming with Vista... We just didn't know that Vista wasn't compatable with lots of the P-Vine's old software...

And, yeah, John, I'll be the first to admit that I am an IDIOT... And proud of it...

Thin we'll just do the swap...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:44 AM

I received a file from Katlaughing on my office email that I opened at work just fine. But when I tried to open it on my home computer it said there was some incompatible feature and I needed an update. That took much of the afternoon, with all of the stuff that came with it. My Word 2003 is now compatible in some way with 2007. I hope that doesn't spell the end of it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 02:47 PM

Mac is not the answer if your machine has to cooperate with programs where you work, etc. My daughter and her husband have both because she likes the Mac, but much of what he does is with businesses which use Microsoft programs.
Some websites, esp. at universities, require Microsoft to navigate.

Luckily, Dell still supplied XP when I got a new machine. Even so, basic set-up for Word changed, and I still feel lost since I have to hunt around for line space changes, etc.
A few weeks ago, someone here at Mudcat couldn't use a website because she had a Mac. My daughter found a program (free) that worked; apparently there are fixes for some of the disconnects.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:06 PM

Stilly -

The formats used for all "documents" in Office 2007 are different than for older versions.

The "native" document format for Word 2007 is a .docx. (But if the document contains/uses macros, it's a .docm.)

A template used for ordinary documents is a .dotx. (But if the template uses macros it's a .dotm.)

None of these can be read by older Word versions without the addition of an "import filter" to translate the new formats back to the old .doc and .dot forms.

Each of the other Office programs has its own set of "new formats," with at least four new "native" formats associated with each program. (Some individual programs have more.)

Recent Office versions can download a filter package to permit the older Office programs to import the new formats, and that's probably what you got. The filters worked with my Office 2002 (sold mostly as Office XP) and with Lin's Office 2003; but I'm not sure whether they're available for older versions like Office 95/97.

Some, if not all, of the new Office 2007 versions don't come with the filters as part of the "Office" package. For a new Office 2007 installation, you may have to separately download a similar set of filters in order to be able to read the old document formats. If you download and install the separate "compatibility filters" Office 2007 can "export" files in formats readable by users of older Office programs.

(If kat sent you a .docx file and you installed the filter and changed it to a .doc, it's quite possible that kat would need to add the filters to open your version if you sent it back to her.(?) It would be expected that kat would already have the filters and could have sent you a .doc - but who knows?)

With the filters installed in the new Office 2007, you can choose to save program output using the "compatibility mode" filter(s) to save files in the old formats. The new programs (but only after the filters are installed) can be set to use any of the old formats as the default.

If the Office 2007 user installs the available filters documents can be saved from the new Word as the new .docx, .docm, .dotx, or .dotm; or as .doc/.dot files compatible with recent Word versions, or in about 6 separate "other flavors" of .doc for earlier Word versions, 5 different versions for Word Perfect, 5 different versions for Works, at least 3 different Mac .mcw versions, as .pdf, .xps, .mht, .mhtml, .htm/html (filtered or unfiltered), xtml, .rtf, or .txt.

The .pdf and .xps converters are a separate download/install from the "compatibility filters," and would be recommended for most Office 2007 users. (And there are some other "specialized filters" available for a few other formats.)

An example of how "helpful" Word 2007 is:

If you click the cow-splat (Of course we all agree that picture of a cow turd is much more infomative than the word "File" which it replaces) you can choose Save or Save As (or one of the other 8 choices).

If you choose Save As you get a "flyout menu" that on my machine fills a quarter of my screen and gives me FIVE SEPARATE CHOICES for what I might want to do. You MUST CHOOSE ONE before you can proceed.

It makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE which of the five choices you click (of if you clicked Save to begin with if it's a new document), since ALL FIVE take you to the IDENTICAL Save menu, showing a place to enter the file name, choose the location where you want it to be saved, and a drop down showing all of the different formats you can use.

The MANDATORY idiot-proofing (because MICROSOFT believes that only idiots will use it's programs) that makes you select every choice at least twice (and in some vague "new-speak" termiology) is a built-in "feature" of Office 2007. I'm sure everyone can see what a tremendous boost to productive work this is. ... (?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:17 PM

Some websites, esp. at universities, require Microsoft to navigate.

Only crap ones.

---
Bobert, while I'd love to say use Linux... I'd say try the swap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:29 PM

If only I could go back to WordPerfect 5.1...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:59 PM

Q:

Any modern Mac running Office suite apps under OS X.n will exchange files seamlessly with Windows-based Office apps.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:47 PM

Amos -

In this modern world, a Windows based computer running different versions of Windows based Office apps can be set up to exchange files, but "seamlessly" isn't in that vocabulary.

And despite loud posturing about how "compatible" Mac and Windows Office suites are, there continue to be "little things" unlikely to be noticed by most users (see casual user above) that cause extremely irritating problems in professional use of Office programs when "Macist" and "Windie" users try to cooperate on a single project.

Compatible = if you work it right.

Seamless = have you got another joke handy?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Tweed
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:52 PM

Well, going even further back....with windows 98 and the Word program that came with it, I could write my webpages, insert photos etc. and save the whole file as ".html" and upload it to my website and presto, it was done.

Now I got a new laptop with Vista and the new Word won't do any of that it seems. Any ideas on how to write or save as .html in this new Word??

Aslo, Bobertz, do the swap with P-vine. Vista will be fine for what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 May 08 - 11:40 PM

Tweed -

It's likely that Bobertz will be fine with the swap. There could be a slight language barrier, but he may be better adapted to handle that than the rest of us, since most of us have to translate what he posts into "humanoid" and he seems to be able to get some meaning from the rest of us when we post in our own tongues.

With a new Vista, you just need to click on "Start" and then the "Windows Update" button on the menu that pops up. When you get to the update site, click on the "Custom Install" option, and you should be shown the available "optional updates." If you need any of the filters/converters, you should find them offered up to you there.

The "install automatically" (or automatic update) option only installs critical security related patches. You have to go the "custom" route to see what optional things are available; but there you should find anything available for all the Microsoft programs you have on your new machine.

I believe that "Save As" html probably is included in most of the packages that should that come preinstalled on OEM Vista machines, and you can always "Save As|.txt" and change the extension to .htm. It's only for compatibility with other versions of Office programs (and for PDF and XMS) that you really need to go get converters.

Opinion has been that the "save as html" has never done a very "clean" job, but I haven't looked at whether that aspect of it has changed with the new Office.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 12 May 08 - 07:38 PM

And we used to joke that XP stood for "Xtra Problems"

When I heard that they didn't set up Vista to work with I-pods I knew there was going to be further trouble. It's also just like Microsoft (The evil M-pire) to make subtle changes to their programs that require everyone else to upgrade to their "new" version in order to be able to work effectively. And they wonder why there's piracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 08 - 08:10 PM

Well, seems to me that they used to be seamlessly interchangeable, before the Vista adventure into XML and docx files.

Powerpoint files and Word file swith lots of graphics hd to go through some kind of rendering, but they worked.

But hell, all I can say, why would you want to trust Microsoft to be the author of your primary operating system? That's an equation that has NEVER made sense.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:48 PM

Amos -

My recollection (which may be a bit fuzzy) is that beginning with Word for DOS 3.1, the first version I did a lot of stuff with, there have been two changes of the format for Word files. There have been several other changes in structure of the files, requiring import/export filters to translate between versions.

The change from .doc to .docx wouldn't be a particularly troublesome one, since the filters are available for translating between formats. It's the user interface within the new Office Programs that are the big change - and the crucial problem.

It's much as if you bought a new car, but when you set out to drive it away from the showroom you find that the brake pedal isn't there. There is now a wheel you have to spin to stop - but it's located on the roof above the rear seat. The change is quite logical because some very deep thinker amongst their "creative staff" said:

"people always look to heaven when the really need to stop so that's where they're most likely to see it. And of course they'll recognize it instantly because that's what we meant it to be. We even put an icon on it - and just because the icon is the same pastel color as all the other icons and the same shape as all the other icons we know that people will recognize it as the right thing to use when they want to stop because we put it where we would be looking if we knew OUR SHIT WAS GONNA DIE."

You wanna make a left turn. Ooops: "we didn't think you needed a steering wheel, because three users in the past century used theirs improperly so we have disabled that feature. Just lift up the floor mat under the front passenge seat and push the button that looks like a pastel cowflop, and a console will come out of the bottom of the trunk, where you can pull the little handle that looks like a pastel cowflop that somebody rolled up to look like a piece of dog poop, and the hood will fly open so that you can push the button that says 'increase clearance from the curb that is on the right side of the car.'"

On the menu that appears, for your convenience there will be 147 identical icons, none of which is distinguishable from the others and none of which says anything until you "hover" over one, which will then tell you what it is. IF YOU FIND the one that says "increase clearance from the curb that is on the right side of the car" you will get another menu that says "Are you sure, or do you want to think it over? Please click yes or no."

Of course by the time you find and push the right button to "increase clearance on the right" in the hope that you'll make something resembling a left turn, you will already have passed the point where you wanted to turn.

You will be saved from landing in the front room of the little old couple who live in the middle of the block only because the execution of the "increase clearance from the curb on the right" was delayed while the computer showed you the warning that:

"the right side of the car that we meant was the same as you might think was your right side if you were facing the rear of the car, which we expect is the case because we have sorted your recent actions to predict the most likely thing we think you should do and we noticed that you looked up and may have wanted to slow or stop, and may actually have crawled over the back of the seat to reach the wheel so we assumed you were looking out the rear window. Clearly the right side is the left side if your front side is your back side but you appear to be uncertain which side is the right side.

"Please select the top button on the next panel (if we let you see it) if you want to get down and the bottom button if you want to give up. The computer will do whatever we want it to and your preferences don't matter because you're a user and users are all idiots.

"In future we don't believe that you should use the menu you have selected because we have prettier things on some other ones."

You have now made a right turn into the wading pool of a group of neighborhood kids who are happily making mudpies on the hood/bonnet of your new car (which incidentally happens to be most conveniently attached to the sunroof which is an inset in the left (facing rearward) rear (facing leftward) Window. The parents of the little urchins are approaching but they look quite friendly so you will soon meet some new friends.

Your "status screen" (conveniently located directly under your own seat), meanwhile, is flashing a message that says:

"A program has been abruptly terminated. Would you like to send a report on this problem to Microsoft so that we can use the information to improve our programs. Please click Yes to send the report."

In the interest of "simplification" you will find that for your convenience Microsoft displays 239 "YES" buttons on the screen. There are NO OTHER BUTTONS so the only way you might expect to close the screen will be to click one of the "YES" buttons. Although the buttons are all identical, 237 of them respond by asking you to click another button. I refuse to tell you what the other two do at this time. (It might discourage you from buying another new car)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:57 PM

"You guys!! Whyncha get ver all that grief and get yourself a Macbook??"

Oh good Gawd, not again !!!    :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:33 AM

Not bitter, are you, John? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Dumb Question #974: Pudders...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:27 AM

DD -

Frankly no. Not bitter. I'm disappointed that Mickey has destroyed what has been the best, most useful, and most powerful tool they had to sell to users. I've barely looked at the other programs in the new Office; but they look pretty much the same. Excel is clumsy, but workable for simple stuff. A couple of the most popular other ones probably should never have been released, if the interests of businesses that use them had been considered.

Given that the vast majority of people never learned to use the old versions, it's probably "what the people want."

Microsoft obviously bought into the same psychobabel that injected "new math" into the schools with the result that we have a whole generation (or two) who can't count or make change. (Some of them are in Microsoft management by now. I've known a couple.) They're happy learning to say "can I supersize that" even if they can't do much of anything very useful.

With the exception of the two "big dogs" there are NO EXECUTIVE MANAGERS who were considered key to the development and release of Vista and Office 2007 left at Microsoft. Informal "inside reports" are that even at lower management levels, those "tainted" are not being welcomed into other groups there. A "next release," currently being called "Office 7" has been officially promised "within a year."

In Microspeak "within a year" probably means five to seven years. It will be that long before I can consider blowing another $1K to see if they've recognized reality, and I likely will be under "managed care" where they won't let me have a computer by then anyway.

John