overrated performers

Subject: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:08 AM

Dustin The Turkey,Daniel O Donnell,Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:11 AM

Dear Cap: As I (and perhaps others) have never heard of your choices, thereby not knowing of them or their performance prowess, perhaps you would let us know why they have elicited your opprobrium.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:14 AM

I `ad that Daniel O`Donnell in my cab once. `e don`t take no prisoners. Now watch the feathers fly!!
Wkat am I like??

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:15 AM

Wkat am i like?? I can`t spell WHAT!!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:17 AM

You still can't. It's 'wot'.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:18 AM

I disagree on that Dick Miles character. Understand he's pretty good. Don't know the others.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:19 AM

Dustin The Turkey,Daniel O Donnell,Dick Miles.

Yep - cant argue with them three!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:31 AM

Fanks "Peace" for puttin` me right. I`ll `ave to be a bit more careful in future. Wished I`da gorn to Cambridge.
WOT am I like??

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:53 AM

Sorry Dick - couldnt resist :-)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:46 PM

All residing in Ireland, I think. Dustin the Turkey, though sounding like an activity that should be reported to the Irish equivalent of the RSPB, is representing Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest. Daniel O'Donnell has a website here, http://www.daniel-site.com/ (the blue clicky link isn't working on my machine at the moment), the least said about Dick Miles, the better (he sings folk music)....

Kitty

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:49 PM

I've just had to reset my cookie for the second time this evening... that'll teach me to comment on 3D.

Kitty

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Kenny Chesney.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,silver slug
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:44 PM

Dustin the Turkey failed miserably in the Eurovison semi-finals so you won't be seeing all kinds of anything from Ireland on Saturday!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:46 PM

Good result then, silver slug?

Kitty

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:51 PM

...and, for the sake of balance (not that the tottering fool'd know much about that :)) this bloke 'ere

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:54 PM

Judging by the two performances I saw of her, I'd say Nanci Griffith...

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Silver Slug
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:00 PM

Yes Kitty, Eurovision has to keep up the standards and, quite frankly, having a glove puppet as your representative is taking the michael! People will start to see the whole Eurovision thing as an irrelevance if this sort of thing catches on.

SS

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:18 PM

I think you'd be wrong to judge by those performances, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Escapee
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:34 AM

John Lennon, Jim Morrison. The longer they're dead the overrateder they get.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:17 AM

Show of Hands   yeeauucchh.

eric

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:20 AM

Forgot to add Seth Lakeman, puerile pop singer.

eric

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:19 AM

The Beatles - mind you they couln't even "perform" a lot of their later stuff as it was either multi-tracked with studio effects or session musicians. Don't get me wrong they weren;t bad, just not the demigods that they are made out to be by some. The Stones as well I saw them twice in the late sixties they had great songs but as "performers" The Pretty Things were miles ahead! Talking of Miles. Miles Davis (whom I consider one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century) was a bit of a wanker in his latter career turning his back on the audience and not playing much at all. Likewise Dylan and Morrison who both take the piss out of their audiences.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:54 AM

One doesn't care to wander among negative vibrations but a lot of bells rung there. The Beatles, Dylan, Morrison (Van and Jim) all chime. It's well known that Daniel O'Donnell is not a real person but a psychopomp generated by the collective yearnings of women of a certain age. Or maybe a golem of the catholic church.
I only know Show of Hands from records but Eric the Red could be on the money.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:19 AM

OK, I shall rise to the bait - how many of you Godlike shining ones have actually SEEN Lennon, Dylan or Show of Hands?

I admit Lennon might be a bit of a problem but I paid to see both the others last year. Dylan emphatically did not take the p*ss (Sheffield arena - read the reviews) and Show of Hands did a superb set at the Albert Hall. NB I am not a Longdog.

And how, pray, does Morrison take the p*ss out of his audience from his grave? Am I confusing him with the Morris On Band?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Hawker
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:22 AM

Remeber this doesn't have to be a negative thread, nobody said they were RUBBISH - just over rated! here ars some who get massive publicity for very little and some who get little publicity when they should get more.
I think alot is down to 'marketing' some performers are just a normal person doing what they enjoy............ and some are a more of a product, caught up in the business side and lose the magic, but perhaps thats just my opinion.
Give me the guy who's doing it 'cos they enjoy it every time, that to me is what true folk is all about, too much commercialism in folk loses the magic.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Hawker
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:27 AM

that should read after just over-rated....There are, sorry, fingers on strike today!
Lucy

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Diva
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:29 AM

Ewan McColl.......we were so bored with the party political broadcast and the forced singing style we went and had a game of pool with the barman.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:39 AM

Over-rated, might as well slag & name drag. Why troll for performers that require those here to mudsling. This is a piece of shit thread.

Barry

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:05 PM

Some seasoned performers are perhaps not so much over-rated as perhaps taking things for granted and in a "comfort zone". Paul Brady at last year's Shrewsbury festival when about half the audience walked out springs to mind.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:23 PM

john tesh

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:37 PM

john Holmes

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:32 PM

It all seems a bit negative to me. I saw Ewan MacColl lots of times and I thought he was pretty good as a performer.. ...mind you he never lectured to any audiences I saw. he would provide background knowledge.

I'm sorry your experience of him was bad; you must have got him on a bad day. We all have them.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Same question as the under-rated ones. How are we rating them? If fRoots says they are good and you feel they are not, is that over-rated? It sounds just like a disagreement with the critics to me. I guess there are thousands of Mum's who love Daniel O'Donnell - How can we disaagree with Mums? Never seen the Turkey but I don't think the Eurovision song contest could ever be rated highly enough. Especialy with Wogan commentating.

Could be a funny thread - and nice touch of self deprecation, Dick but knowing the propensity to slag people off around here I guess it could turn nasty.

Still, we live in hope...

:D

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:02 PM

Hemingway said if you go to war often enough, you'll get killed.

If you stay in this business long enough, you will be criticised - most of the time very unfairly by people who know nothing of the constraints imposed on you by reality when you make the idealistic committment to be a musician.

I don't see the necessity for personal attacks in a little piece of cyberspace which is really the domain and bailliewick of musicians.

We can disagree about the nature of folk music, but personal slanders we can do without.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:41 PM

Sorry ,the thread was meant as a joke,in response to the overated performers thread.Hence Dustin the Turkey,Dick Miles,AND Daniel oDonnell.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: oldhippie
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:47 PM

No joke, the most overrated performer is Kelly Clarkson.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:05 PM

"Sorry ,the thread was meant as a joke"

and apparently a fair number got taken in by it, Captain ;-D

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Posted this morning on here but the thread seemed to be blocked. Anyway, the point is it's not that some acts are bad necessarily but that they attract disproportionate acclaim for dubious reasons, like industry hype, or purely (as opposed to additional) physical attractiveness, or a misplaced sense of mystique. These features, especially the latter, are not wholly the preserve of pop but effect music generally.
The guru racket is alive and well.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:47 PM

Actually I did see Jim Morrison live (showin' me age I am ;-) ) and yes he was and is vastly over-rated.

The Beatles do present a bit of a problem. The irony is that given today's technology, and were all of The Beatles available (and were they willing, of course), they probably could perform Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (as an example) live. I mean how long did it take before Queen could perform Bohemian Rhapsody live?

Right, that's more than enough out of me!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:17 PM

Ron Kavana. Last time he played in Liverpool he turned up 15 minutes before he was due to go on and then had the nerve to insult the sound engineer. His show was mostly a succession of very inferior versions of Irish standards like 'The Foggy Dew' and 'Dunlavin Green' interspersed with cliched and mostly inaccurate sermons on Irish 'history'. Ironically, he was playing to a mostly Irish audience in an Irish Centre and most of the people I spoke to agreed that he was crap. So much for the guru of the Irish music community.

I did feel that he did deserve some sort of ecological award, however, given the amount of recycled material in his set. How many times has he recorded 'Reconciliation' now?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:59 PM

It is no joke having to listen to Van Morrison "singing" Irish folk, I had one listen too many.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:32 PM

Have to say I largely agree with WLD on this one, except the bit where he says Mudcat is essentially for musicians only. Personally, I didn't see the 'no admittance' sign on the gate.

There's plenty of music out there I think is utter shite. I'd rather keep mum about it and talk about the stuff that blows me over.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:28 PM

Just before I got married, my wife's ex, hearing that she was now spending time in the presence of Irish traditional music, decided to try and re-ingratiate himself with her by sending her a copy of the Van Morrison/Chieftains record.

I laughed my ass off.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:32 PM

I didn't say you weren't alowed in as musicians. I didn't mean to say that anyway. Wot I meant was there are a lot of musicians around. And take the stuff about Ron Kavana above.

I'm willing to bet if Ron himself doesn't hear about it. One of his friends will, and it will hurt their feelings.

The trouble with Irish centers is as a venue - there are lots of different types and its hard to get it right. Sometimes they want old fashioned waltzes, sometimes they want rebel songs, sometimes they don't want ANY rebel songs, sometimes there are no Irish people in these places and they don't know any Irish songs, sometimes they're full of Marty Robbins fans....

For chrissake Ron's Irish, he has a nice voice, he plays in tune, he knows the words of the songs he sings, just try and behave yourself!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:24 AM

WD40
Don't entirely disagree with you.
The problem with threads like this is that people are seldom asked WHY
they like or dislike a performer.
There is nothing wrong with discussing anybody's merits or demerits as a singer/musician/whatever, but just to say "I like - or - I don't like such and such performer at least gives us something to go on.
I don't like prunes - means nowt; I don't like prunes because they give me the runs...... now there's a basis for discussion!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:45 AM

Its a it like the old mike harding joke

can you take constructive criticism mate?
Yes...
Y'er crap!

Exactly what is Ron is supposed to do about his versions of Irish folksongs being 'very inferior' and most of the people in Liverpool Irish Centre thinking he's crap (apart from being nice to the soundman and not getting stuck on the Manchester ringroad)is difficult to determine.

there were no sermons on Irish history when I saw him - so i can't comment on his grasp of that tricky suject. But he could sing and play all right as far as this Englishman could see.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: goatfell
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:58 AM

Ivan Drever, Morris Dickson are two of the most boring entertianers I have heard, but that's is just me.

I heard Ivan drivel once before and after the first 3 songs I fell asleep, and as for Morris Dickson he's as about funny as a broken leg before you go to hospital.

but as I say that's just me oh and other crowd called the sangsters they're crap as well, but that's just me.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:15 AM

Beg to disagree about Maurice Dickson -saw him at Sidmouth and he got a great rapport going with the audience - he's not actually that well known hence difficult to say he's over-rated.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:51 AM

"there were no sermons on Irish history when I saw him"
Ron and his group have produced a package of songs and music which deal with Irish social and political history. I saw the stage presentation of it last year at the Frank Harte week-end and was bored out of my skull.
I didn't think the performance was very good, I agree that the versions of songs were inferior (the Irish repertoire is full of excellent songs which cover the subject), and it was interminably over-long.
I can't claim to be familiar with the group, so I can't say whether this was just a 'bad-hair day', but I think it valid to discuss any public performer/performance in these terms.
Certain sections of the revival have wrapped themselves and their particular tastes in performers in cotton wool and seem to regard them as above criticism. It does no good to the performers and it certainly doesn't help the music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:11 AM

no I 've only see Ron do an ordinary club gig - it was okay. In fct rather good.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:09 AM

Certain sections of the revival have wrapped themselves and their particular tastes in performers in cotton wool and seem to regard them as above criticism. It does no good to the performers and it certainly doesn't help the music.
Jim Carroll
that applies to musicians in any genre,including a few traditional singers,who on a good day could only reach the mediocre.but because they learned their songs in a certain manner ,are above criticism from certain collectors.
why?.could it be that without their existence,the collectors would not have a reason to exist,so they collect everything including a few bad singers,and no one dare say they are bad.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: SlowAlan
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:25 AM

Hard for me to say what the Beatles were like as performers, I saw them in 64 and only heard Love, Love,Me before the screaming started. Heard not another note for a very brief 25 minute or so set.

Impossible for me to rate them at all...although I enjoyed being there immensely!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:32 AM

"that applies to musicians in any genre,including a few traditional singers,who on a good day could only reach the mediocre.but because they learned their songs in a certain manner ,are above criticism from certain collectors.
why?.could it be that without their existence,the collectors would not have a reason to exist"
Tsk-tsk - your dislike of traditional singers is showing again Cap'n
These people in the main, were not public performers, most had not sung for decades, yet, good or bad, they were generous enough with their time and hospitality to pass on what they knew. Without them we would not have had songs to sing, music to play and stories to tell.
I have no idea what kind of singer retired lead miner Mark Anderson was; I do know that if he hadn't been generous enough to pass on Scarborough Fair to MacColl and Littlewood, neither you, me, Martin Carthy nor Simon and Garfunkle would be singing it.
I get rather tired of ingrates like yourself who fail to recognise that fact - a little acknowledgment of the debt we all owe, and a great deal more recognition of your own limitations would not go far amiss.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:41 AM

just in case i forgot to thank anybody for the songs which have made me the man I am today.

Thank you one and all!

Particularly the blokes who wrote rock round the clock and agadoo.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Phil
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:18 AM

Spice Girls, probably the most talentless group in the world, but probably made the most money.

Posh Spice on her own. Jesus. Enough said.

Phil*

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:49 AM

get rather tired of ingrates like yourself who fail to recognise that fact - a little acknowledgment of the debt we all owe, and a great deal more recognition of your own limitations would not go far amiss.
Jim Carroll.
no jim ,I do recognise the fact ,Read my post again,or cant you read.
I was referring to a few traditional singers,not all.Iam unlike you not prepared to be totally uncritical.
Jim ,If someone was a bad singer ,I am prepared to say it whether they are traditional or not.Jim its all amatter of opinion,and you and your opinion are not god.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:01 AM

Cap'n
I had the pleasure of hearing a recording of you singing recently.
You really could learn a great deal from the least skilled of them.
This conversation is now over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:04 AM

Sorry to express an alternative opinion, Arran: as you say, it's all about opinions. I'm a big fan of both Ivan Drever (epecially some of his beautiful tunes, played superbly with Duncan Chisholm on fiddle)and Sangsters.
There are others I don't rate as highly as some, but that's my opinion. And some who go down well at live gigs, but don't make for good CD listening, whereas others who can't replicate the studio sound at a live gig (as has been said above).
I was at a great session on Sunday for 4 hours or more: a latecomer asks smoker outside the pub how the session was - "dire" she was told, and then proceeded to tell others the same, having not been there herself! (thanks a bunch!) So best to form your own opinion from personal experience, which may, of course, be coloured by what sort of a day you've had, and what sort of a mood you're in anyway!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:40 AM

no Jim it isnt,bringing my so called limitations into the discussion is completely irrelevant,and a personal attack.
However while I recognise the work you have done as a collector,that does not make your opinions on singing of any more value than any one els eon this forum.
you slag everyone from the Beatles to Ron Kavana,Martin Carthy. Myself.
however as you dont rate Martin Carthy ,and you dont rate me ,I feel I am in good company.
Jim:
Martin and I can still do it. they who can do it,do.
those who cant criticise.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:46 AM

"Martin and I"

You probably want to choose a time to stop. Now would be good. There are probably people at Mudcat who do not believe you're an egotistical prat and you should continue to respect their faith in you, however misplaced.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:19 PM

sorry Jeri,
We both can still do it.I agree Martin is better than me,but I can still sing reasonably well.play concertina and give a good evening in a club.
there are are people on this forum, who slag people off,Jim Carroll is one,who dont have the balls to put up anything of their own on you tube etc.,but sit and tear others to pieces.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:40 PM

Ah...
But I respect Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:00 PM

you are free to respect who you like, you are not free on this forum to personally abuse me.
for your information, Martin Carthy was happy to play guitar on one of my recordings.
I have never said I was better,or as good as Martin Carthy,that is your interpretation.I said something else
I do not respect people who slag everyone else off,when they cant do it themselves, neither do I respect people who use this forum,as you have done to abuse others.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:09 PM

If Martin Carthy played on a record of mine, besides it being a very high compliment, I certainly would know that I was, at least, half way good

To paraphrase The Captain, those that can do, those that can't criticise or teach

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM

Cap'n,
suspect I am not the only one who is feeling somewhat embarrassed on your behalf - please stop
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:41 PM

"I do not respect people who slag everyone else off,when they cant do it themselves, neither do I respect people who use this forum,as you have done to abuse others."

If you are addressing the lady, I thought she was rather polite.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Sebastion
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

I'm a bit surprised that no one has suggested that Elvis was overrated. I am not saying that I think Elvis was bad but he was certainly overrated, and still is, by his fanatical fans. Some of the more fanatical fans, especially the impersonators, I find are a bit weird. It has been said that Elvis impersonators are increasing at an exponential rate and that, at this current rate, in about twenty years time the entire human race will be Elvis impersonators. What a f*@&ing nightmare.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:42 PM

I always thought, with some people at least, that we took it as read that Elvis Presley was/is vastly over-rated

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:43 PM

Elvis Costello ain't all that bad.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:27 PM

I agree with every point the wee drummer has made. Ron K can be very uneven... I've seen him great, I've seen him OK, and I've seen him untogether and not on top of it, which isn't the same thing as being bad. It's also not the same thing as being over-rated. And he does have real talent, however he uses it on the night. WHY are there threads like this? The only thing they ever accomplish is to cause hurt feelings and inevitable fights. You know that at least some of the named victims are going to read about themselves. Some "joke". Ha ha.

Al (along with Forrest Gump's mother) is right about Irish centres too. They're a bit like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get...

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:57 AM

People agreeing wiv me - we can't have this.......its not traditional!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:03 AM

OH YES IT IS !!!!!!
;-)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: goatfell
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:25 AM

I tihnk that Elvis and the beatles were all right but not my cup of tea I mean Elivs once told Roy Orbison that his song 'only the lonely' was shit and then Elvis records 'old shep'

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:18 PM

Caitlín,
'The only thing they ever accomplish is to cause hurt feelings and inevitable fights'
I agree with you up to a point.
By asking for a list of 'overrated performers', which were the terms in which this question is posed, is, I believe, of little value. I think it would have been a different matter to have asked why they are/were overrated. The suggestion that performers are incapable of taking criticism of their singing and playing is, I believe, a rather patronising one.
Any singer, musician, writer, painter, researcher - whatever, who presents their efforts to the public should expect their work to be scrutinised and commented on, otherwise, they really shouldn't be there.
The only thing they have a right to ask is that the scrutiny and comment should be fair, honest, and positive (in terms of how their work might be improved). If this is adhered to, hurt feelings should never be a guiding factor in criticism.
Let's face it, people are quite likely to talk about your work; would you rather they did that to your face or behind your back.
The idea that there are people not qualified to give an opinion on what you do is elitist nonsense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:40 PM

Jim - I have no problem with constructively critical discussion (even when it's negative) of an artist's work, for the reasons you've just given. But I have a big problem with that label "over-rated". Why hang that on anyone? Who decides? People aren't ever going to agree on it anyway. And I never said anything about someone not being qualified to give an opinion. I don't even believe that.

Much better IMHO to leave off the prejudicial definitions and just discuss the work itself, both good and bad aspects. Asking why someone is over-rated is still stating that they ARE over-rated, and I don't think it's a fair frame of reference. Making a public list of names just sucks.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:50 PM

Any American Idol winner! (So far...)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:01 PM

Caitlín
"Much better IMHO to leave off the prejudicial definitions and just discuss the work itself, both good and bad aspects."
I wish I'd said that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:12 PM

we all have very strong opinions on certain artistes, it would be unatural not to feel this way.
From our own personal viewpoint, some artistes are not our particular cup of tea and other peoples' view of them may be over-rated.
I don't think this thread is a dignified one. It's time to draw a close before it gets out of hand IMHO.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:45 AM

Greycap,
I think this goes far beyond personal tastes.
Those of us who have become involved in traditional music have done so because we believe it to be important.
While I agree with you that this thread has been poorly set up, if we are unable to discuss the abilities of public performances of singers and musicians for fear of hurting someones feelings, we may as well all pack it in and go home.
Analysis, criticism and discussion are an essential part of the well being of any creative activity; stifle them and that activity will deteriorate and die.
Taken to its logical conclusion, we would have to steer clear of discussing cinema, theater, painting, literature and any other artistic endevour. Healthy, positive critical discussion is the lifeblood of any art.
Jim Carroll
PS I would extend this argument to the parallel 'under-rated performers' thread; bland sycophantic praise can do as much damage as negative slagging off.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:51 AM

this thread was a started as a joke,hence Dustin the Turkey.
I

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:53 AM

I agree with Greycap,.
criticism is ok provided its constructive,asked for and best done in private.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:03 AM

You invite public criticism by singing in public - if you can't take it, stay at home and sing in the bath!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:23 AM

if I took Jims argument to its logical conclusion,it would be acceptable,to harangue performers in clubs,it is not because it upsets the performer,prevents him from playing at his /her best,and therefore spoils the performance for others.
you have complained about Bob Davenports behaviour on one occasion at a performance.
you say ,the performer may invite public criticism,but good manners and politeness should be shown,so that other members of the audience can enjoy the performance.
this thread and some of the comments have overstepped the bounds of good manners.
the best way in my opinion to improve ones performances is to ask the opinion of a performer you respect.,who can then give valuable help in private.
this thread was intended as a joke .
I should have realised that there are a small minority of begrudgers and very rude people on this forum,and I apologise for starting the thread.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:03 AM

Look its like this.

You start singing, performing or whatever and people criicise you.

Someone is going to say you're crap. If you pursue performing for a living - sometimes whole rooms full of people will decide you're crap.

it goes with the territory.

Every performer puts up with it, or gets out. Every one: Elvis, Sinatra, Pavarotti, Carthy, Dick Miles, Ron Kavana.......

Whenever two or more gigging musicians get together they have a drink and a curry and tell war stories. And they criticise back. So you criticise away......

Because in a way, you're doing us a favour....adding to the fund of folk tales amongst musicians.   stuff like...

'I understand what you're sayin', its an acoustical guitar, BUT DO YOU DO ANY SHADOWS NUMBERS?'

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:58 AM

Yep - Apache - always goes down an absolute storm.

I know what you're saying WLD, and have to agree - no such thing as bad publicity. You have to agree though that Mr Williams (No ear, All nose & Throat Specialist) is No 1 over-rated performer though?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:53 AM

Cap'n
If you disapprove of criticism so much, why in god's name did you start this thread in the first place?
A paid performer who attempts to stifle criticism of his/her performance is like a fishmonger who sells bad fish and forbids his customers from telling anybody else.
If you cant tell the difference between honest, open and balanced discussion and harangue, once again we appear to be speaking a different language. I'm off to find an interpreter who speaks your language!
Incidentally, Bob Davenport is the only singer I have known to publicly harangue a fellow performer at a club, in that case, a young woman at The Musical Traditions Club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 08:39 AM

for the fourth time, the thread was started as a joke,in relation to Dustin the Turkeys,eurovision song performance.
The correct place for criticism[so that the performer can benefit],is in private on a one to one basis.,and is generally best when the performer has asked for ways, he she/ might improve,for example if I wanted to Improve my guitar playing,I might ask someone like Richard Grainger[how to use DADGAD]or if I wanted to have an opinion on a self composed song,I might ask him or someone like Peter Bond.,or if I wanted an opinion on how to interpret a ballad I might ask Martin Carthy.If someone wanted advice on song accompaniment Iwould be happy to help,I would also direct them to the recordings of LouisKillen ,AlfEdwards,SteveTurner,TonyRose,DamienBarber,BrianPeters.
honest, open discussion does not include calling me an egotistical twat,that is personal abuse,[post from Jeri].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:43 PM

Have you two thought of getting married..?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:51 PM

"for the fourth time, the thread was started as a joke"
Seems to have backfired somewhat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:51 PM

further discussion [on my part] with Jim Carroll,will take part in the form of personal messages.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Sorry. Too many large red wines with dinner perhaps..... Mr Williams.

I can't think who you mean. kenneth Williams...Rambling Sid? Robbie......

Anyway, I'm sure you're right. never liked the bugger, whoever he is.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:42 AM

I don't mind a joke, but f*ck a pantomime.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:04 AM

Oh no you don'T!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:35 AM

Nowt wrong with Kenneth/Rambling Sid - didn't take himself seriously, and was a rare talent anyhow. Robbie is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:35 AM

When I was a kid in infant school, we all used to have this competition to see who could wee furthest up the wall.

There was this kid, who could pee right over the wall and into the girls playground. We always applauded those performances that got a reaction - some girl shouting.....'OI! You dirty thing! You mucky thing!' and running off to tell teacher. Naturally we'd all run off then. One time he managed to actually hit a teacher on the other side of the wall, and then justice caught up with him.

Talking of overrated performers, I wonder what he went on to achieve later in life. What heights achieved. Or was it a case of too much, too soon?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:38 AM

> we all used to have this competition to see who could wee furthest up the wall.

So THAT'S why they call you Wee Little Drummer...

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:40 AM

WLD -

"Oh no you don'T"

LOL - thanks.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:25 AM

Can we all kiss and make up? GROUP HUG!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:45 AM

Not much chance, we're English - we don't go in for that sort latent homo-eroticism.

Still you know what they say, what's the difference between a guy who's bisexual and one that's straight?

About six gin and tonics!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:48 AM

Oh.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: theleveller
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:03 AM

"Can we all kiss and make up? "


Personally, I think make-up is greatly overrated - I always seem to smudge the eye-liner.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:12 AM

Every performer in history is/was overrated - or underrated - to someone. Generally, I find these lists tedious and unproductive. In the immortal words of Cole Porter, "Let's call the whole thing off."

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:16 PM

By that TJ, I take it you don't remember who could wee the highest in your school.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST, We all have worth
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:14 PM

What colour do you think is overrated? One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:36 PM

well I have the pine coloured laminate floor covering. and I wouldn't recommend it for floors or ceilings. round this spring time of year - the earwigs and other insects become very visible

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:58 PM

But can you wee on your ceiling... ? (You don't get any points for the floor.)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Fullbladder
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:45 PM

Pissing up the wall is a contest when you're young. Get your prostate checked out if it happens when you're peeing in your fifties.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:55 PM

I'm in my sixties and peeing is what I do.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:05 PM

After 6 gin and tonics anyone who can get it straight is to be respected.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:33 AM

This thread seems to have found its own level - so to speak.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Gervase
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:48 AM

It's all a matter of taste. I think someone's over-rated, you think they're great and, er, that's it. Personally Peter Bellamy's voice used to make me cringe, so I would say he was over-rated as a performer but matchless as an arranger of songs. Similarly Peggy Seeger (cue joke about Ewan putting his hand over his ear...) - but it's all personal prejudice.
Jim Carroll is (as usual) right - best let this thread dribble away.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:14 PM

oh pish!! just when I thought I would find out what over-rated meant!!