BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers

Subject: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:47 PM

A new one on me, I guess. Kitty was pregnant and strayed. Now she is double pregnant. Though not uncommon it is quite dangerous as one litter may be ready to be born while the other is not.
The last time I saw this, the "queen" had to have an emergency hysterechtomy and only three of eight kittens survived. Cost me $1200.
So we wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Becca72
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:59 PM

I have heard that this can happen because cats spontaneously ovulate when the opportunity presents itself. Don't know the truth of it, but it sounds like it makes sense :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:01 PM

Tom Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:07 PM

And the males spontaneously fornicate when the opportunity presents itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Megan L
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:29 PM

nothing new there then

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:34 PM

LOL...yep!

Apparently it really can happen! From a google search:

She does not come into heat again while she is still in heat, but she can conceive each time she breeds during that heat. A cat's biological make up lets them produce eggs for fertilization each time she breeds so she can have several fathers for her litter.

It's not good to let her keep breeding though as the last kittens conceived could be up to a week younger in gestation than the first conceived. She will only have one labour and delivery however many times she breeds. The last kittens maybe too immature at birth to survive. If they do you may have to hand raise them as they may not be strong enough to nurse from the queen.

I had a cat once who two kittens, one pure black, the other pure white like the mom. There were no black cats around, so we had no idea if they came as a pair from one tom or two!

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:52 PM

I did not have sex with....

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:20 PM

WHOSE cat!!??..... !

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:20 PM

Here pussy pussy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Who gets bragging rights, Sins?!

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:28 PM

TOM CAT
(Rooftop Singers)


I've got an old Tom Cat
And when he steps out
All the other cats in the neighborhood
They begin to shout

There goes a ring tail Tom
Struttin' round the town
And if you got your heat turned up
You better turn your damper down

Ringtail Tom is a star
He's a boss around this town
He don't allow no other Tom Cats
Come pussy footin' around

Ringtail Tom on the fence
Little pussy cat on the ground
Ringtail Tom com-a-off-a that fence
They start rousin around

Ringtail Tom is a star
He's a natural born crack shot
He finds a new target every night
And he sure does practice alot

And if you got your heat turned up
You better turn your damper down

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:31 PM

BUT, as one tom said to the other, "It wasn't I. Someone had it in for me!"

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: MMario
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:12 PM

pure black is recessive; while some forms of pure white are dominant - so one each in a litter from a pure white mom is quite possible with only one sire.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:10 PM

Are you going to SPAY her now?????? As soon as the kits are nearly weaned, she'll come in season again.

And the spines on feline peni are there because the pain is what causes the queen to ovulate. Rabbits are the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:29 PM

Mine are all spayed, Sorcha. Much as I adore kittens, I am angered that anyone would not prevent an unwanted litter. A co-worker thinks "it's unfair not to let her have at least one litter." Now all his families have backed out and he has four fast growing kittens that he can't keep or afford to neuter. It makes me very angry.

When my nephew's cat went into labor, one litter was so big they could not be born. The x-rays showed a kitten about a month old while the preemies did not even have fully formed legs. There was more than a week between the litters. Mom nearly bled to death. He and I were awake for 48 hours trying to keep the three who survived alive by hand feeding and massaging to expel urine.

This all happened two weeks before Alice had her litter. (She arrived pregnant though only a kitten herself). I was a wreck when she finally had six healthy kittens all the same size.

My neighbors cat seemed to be in distress and the X-rays showed large and small kittens. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:29 PM

I still wanna know whose cat it is. I don't think SINS would have taken in a pregnant cat, but you never know. People am funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:29 PM

The books say this is very rare but the vet who performed the operation knew instantly what was wrong. She had seen it before.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:35 PM

For the record, Sorcha - Alice went into heat AGAIN three days after her kittens were born hence "Alice, the slut". Cats are kitten machines and not choosy about who they mate with. Pure breds who mate with "plain olds" are ruined for breeding. Even their subsequent offspring have no value to a breeder.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:10 PM

So they "cat" around and flaunt it, eh?**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:34 PM

Hmmmm. Why does a breeding with a 'plain old' ruin them for purebred breedings? As I understand it, although the mother transmits material to the womb-bound it doesn't go the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Micca
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:59 PM

Ebbie, I suspect it is to preserve the genetic integrity of the breeding line as in if a cat has only had certified pregnancys from provable sires than the parentage of the kittens in all cases is verifiable, this of course is probably difficult if your mog has any degree of freedom of action whether Thoroughbred or plain moggie as they tend to spread it around a bit given half a chance.
On the scientific side altho' genetic material does not enter the mother cat from the kitten there are things in the shared bloodstream that are "trans-placental" such as antibodies that in humans are connected with blood grouping issues for example blue baby syndrome that is triggered by the antibodies generated during the first pregnancy (if the parents have certain differing blood groups) that attack the fetus during the second pregnancy that could be seen as contamination of the "pure blooded" breed of cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Skivee
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:17 AM

"...And the spines on feline peni are there because the pain is what causes the queen to ovulate. Rabbits are the same way. "
What god in heaven would design a system like this?????

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: MMario
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:48 AM

Consider the Avacado, the Ostrich and the goby (where the male becomes a parasitic organ of the female) or the mite; (males die in utero; females born pregnant).

Even god makes mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:43 AM

Some might disagree, MMario. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:25 AM

Thanks, Micca.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Rowan
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:19 PM

While in no way "Innocent", Basingstoke pleads "Not Guilty!"

And double pregnancies are not unknown in people.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: GUEST,cStu
Date: 26 May 08 - 10:08 AM

$1200??

What was the hourly rate?

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:52 PM

And sorry, Sins....I thought it was YOUR cat, and I thought you had more sense! Turns out, you DO!

Good luck to the mama cat....And you may whack her owner for me. Unfair indeed. Animals do NOT look emotionally on pregnancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:15 PM

And double pregnancies are not unknown in people.
This was indeed the case with our twins who, according to a very early scan were almost a week apart (must have been a good week lol). I can vouch for the fact that neither of them look in the slightest like the milkman but technically, I suppose, if he was better looking they might have been! As the twins were borm early, as many are, there could have been a real problem if the younger one had not been as developped. As it was they were born at 36 weeks weighing in at 6lb 11oz and 6lb 3oz so hardly underweight!

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Rowan
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:46 PM

I suspect, Mrs Duck, your experience is the more usual version in people, where stable marriages masked the frequency of double pregnancies.

I recall a report, from about 25 years ago, that described a mum who gave birth to twins nine months after she'd separated from her husband. One twin appeared premature and the exhusband accepted paternity of one but not the other; the report didn't mention any reason for his decision but it went to court and the tissue typing (this was before DNA typing became commonplace) demonstrated that it was possible he could have fathered the one he accepted but it was impossible he could have fathered the other. It transpired the mum, not knowing she had already conceived, had had a brief fling with another bloke about a month after she'd split from her husband.

To me, the most likely explanation seemed to be that, although she had already conceived, she ovulated at her next (scheduled?) cycle and had conceived a second time. I used to use the story as a 'heads up' to students in embryology classes; if a real pregnancy can fail to prevent ovulation there is a real (if small) chance that a pill-induced imitation pregnancy could similarly fail to prevent ovulation. And conception.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:27 PM

It's not an exact science - there can be more than one egg released at ovulation - hence non-identical twins. Plus, not everyone is on a regular 28-day cycle. 'About a month' could be anything between 3 and 5 weeks...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Rowan
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:41 PM

You're right, Liz.

There have been some famous cases where twins were born and it was obvious from their appearance that they'd had different fathers but their birth weights indicated that both ova had been released in the same cycle. Sometimes it was even possible to narrow down the "window of opportunity" to only one very small part (the proverbial 20 minutes?) of the one cycle.

In the case I described above, the "premature" condition of the bub not acknowledged by the exhusband (there may have been other aspects of "appearance" thought relevant) plus the difference in birth weights seems to have been best explained by a second ovulation in a subsequent cycle; "classically" a double pregnancy and the reason why I'd recount the story to actively interested (and sometimes very active) students.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:50 PM

Found on a fortune cookie many years ago: "Tis a wise child who knows his own father." After reading this, it must be true of mothers too.
Miss Kitty has been relieved of her litters; some survived. Kitty is fine but due for a spaying. Neighbor is glad to know that she was not alone in this. But the vet still insists it is rare.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Rowan
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:58 PM

"Tis a wise child who knows his own father." Very true. And said to be an old Jewish proverb.

On the thread "What scientists think about" I detailed the gists of several articles that are relevant to this discussion and that were published in New Scientist about a decade ago. THe earliest of them surveyed families with more than one child in a reasonably large English city (I forget which) and found that DNA analysis indicated a very high percentage of families had at least one child whose father was not the husband of their mum. A later article got women to, anonymously, keep a diary of their menstrual cycles and their sexual activities, including whether they "played at home or away"; they foound a high percentage of "relatively faithful" women, if they did play away, did so when the probability that an ovum would be fertilised was at a peak. The authors attributed some cogent biological reasoning to explain such behaviour.

The sequence of articles went on into other aspects that interested me (indicating, among other things, that males don't have the control over their destiny they may think) but, in the last few months, I've noticed a couple that were intended to indicate that humans had not only a menstrual cycle but an oestrus cycle as well. The bloke from New Mexico who surveyed the use of contraceptive pills among lap dancers and their associated takings has already been discussed on Mudcat but a more recent article described a (to my mind) more rigourous investigation. Women's faces were photographed more or less daily over a couple of cycles and men were invited to rank the apparent attractiveness of the photos; without fail, the men picked the photo taken when the woman was at her peak of receptivity.

It seems women are in a similar position to men, in that their control over their destiny is sometimes not quite what they think it is.

It also seems, at first glance, cats may have it sorted a bit more easily. If noisily.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:13 AM

It's the basic animal instinct to seek out the best father for "your child" whether you be human, animal or bird.

Of course, the best may be the loudest, showiest, most testosterone fuelled alpha male in the pack, thus increasing your likelihood of having a prospective alpha male or it may be the one that human judgement deems is least likely to abandon, beat or ill treat the offspring. If a female has had a bad experience with an alpha male, she may pair off with one of the beta males just for a bit of comfort and security because her judgment tells her he is less likely to be a prick.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:40 AM

I know exactly what you mean Liz.After two alphas I went for a beta only to realise after a number of years that he really wanted to be an alpha but just didn't have the ability. Talk about dull! Now I've got a GOOD alpha!

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:15 AM

Definition of a "good" alpha - one who goes down the cellar when he's told?

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:28 AM

No - one who doesn't feel threatened when I say something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pregnant Cat: Two Different Fathers
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:00 AM

: )

And, y'all are absolutely correct. My sisters were conceived separately, twins in womb only, one born a few weeks more premature than the other.

Dani

PS: Jacqui, check PM!