Folk Proms

Subject: Folk Proms
From: Sooz
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:58 AM

I see from the EFDSS magazine that there is a Folk Day (20th July) in this years Promenade Concert series. Better still it includes free concerts in the Royal Albert Hall and Kensington Gardens.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

I'm so disappointed. I was hoping to discover that folk music was the hottest new thing at high school senior proms.

*SIGH* Time to wake up.... I'm dreaming again....

Dan

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:48 PM

Is anyone else planning on being at the Folk Proms on Sunday?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

No, but I believe it's on telly.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

So, what's the programme?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:56 PM

Sam Cooke sang:
"Tom Dooley, cha cha cha.
I taught my baby how to cha cha cha."

Is that what you had in mind, Dan?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Bo
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

The "Folk Prom" is on Sunday evening, 20th July, at 19:30 BST and is being shown on BBC4 until 21:15
My Radio Times also shows that it is on BBC Radio 3 at the same time.
Bella Hardy, Martin Simpson and Bellowhead are listed.
Hope you can catch it. Bo

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

BBC 4 7.30 pm Bella Hardy, Martin Simpson and Bellowhead. Simultaneous broadcast on BBC Radio 3. Enjoy fB

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

Dash !! Late again

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

We shall be there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2008/whatson/2007.shtml

The evening concert is being broadcast live on BBC4.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 03:04 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2008/whatson/2007.shtml

:)

Full programme lasts all day, with acitivites for children.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

I forgot to do the blue clicky thing, thanks Ruth

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:51 AM

Bella Hardy is playing both afternoon and evening. She's being accompanied by Chris Sherburn (concertina) and Corinna Hewat (harp) in the evening and they are a wonderful new combination. I'm hoping they'll be part of the BBC 4 TV broadcast.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:08 AM

Hi folks

There is a lot of whinging on the R3 message boards about the Folk Proms if anyone would like to leap to the defence - I've had my tuppenceworth already though it in mod at the moment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio3/F7497567?thread=5669271

Joe G

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

...and I'll be doing the calling for the ceilidh!!!!!!!
Bring on your dancing shoes

Sarah

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

I have stuck a little boot in.

Goodness me - and I thought 'catters were a contrary bunch!! We have nothing on them.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

Hi Dave

Yes I have had many rguements over there - especially every year around the time of the World Music Awards and frequently in defence of Late Junction and World Routes.

I suppose what we would all like is a mainstream station devoted to folk and roots music (maybe with jazz and other 'minority' music) and then we would not be in competition with the classical fans - then again you would hope that people would be broadminded enough to listen to other genres just once in a while

(Mind you I know some folkies who are equally narrow minded!)

Cheers

Joe

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

it's not even so much the narrow-mindedness of the classical audience - I'm not saying they HAVE to listen to folk music. It's the assumption that their music is innately superior to all other forms that does my nut. And, of course, this assumption leads to the premise that classical therefore deserves far more air time and attention(and funding - oh lordy, here I go again).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:13 PM

Yes Ruth - the word 'spoilt' comes to mind. I am fully in favour of funding to support great orchestras etc but if only folk could have some crumbs off the table!!

See the latest post by Mike4Rach over there for a reasoned response (LOL) to folk music and my retort (if it is out of mod yet)

Cheers

Joe

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:23 PM

I have asked what programmes he switches off - damned if I can find many!

And thanks Ruth - forgot that bit about the Merchant of Venice....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:55 AM

I can't see anything above that mentions the fact that even though some of the Folk Proms events are free, they all have to be booked in advance ... and the tickets for the Free afternoon Prom in the RAH "sold" out quite some time ago. SO, as far as I can see, it's not a case of just turn up and enjoy the event on the day :-( (I left it too late to get a ticket for the afternoon freebie). So I shall be saving my train fare up to town and watching the evening concert on the box.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Aaargh ... that last one was me. I seem to have lost my cookie ... back to the drawing board!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:00 AM

there is stuff in the afternoon in kensington Gardens that's free, 12 - 3pm.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

Ah ... thanks for that Ruth ... didn't see that in the links provided... memo to self ... must look harder [grin]

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

You can always queue up with the prommers for the £5 tickets for the actual Prom concerts. These are the standing space ones that aren't prebookable.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:53 PM

I reckon it'll be great in Bellowhead's mosh pit. AKA £5.00 standing.

(err....I think that is the right expression...)

I';; get mi coat......

x

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:16 PM

Sadly, being a lady with back and other problems standing for a concert ain't an option these days!!! grumble, whinge, whine and moan....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:18 PM

Me neither.....

Last time I was down there iun London - the pub shut at 11.00 pm.

What a dump!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:26 PM

What - London or the RAH ??

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,twonk
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:36 PM

T4 on Weston super Mare beach tomorrow..

got to be better than a bunch of old smelly hippy folgkies

stinking up London with insense and patchouli !!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:46 AM

Twonk is well named.... I've never used patchouli in my life!

Incense on the other hand... in my other life at church, I must admit to being a casual user but only on special occasions.

It's lovely weather in London today so it should be great in the park. I'm not feeling up to going though, so I hope people have a good time.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:38 AM

Guest was a cookieless me .. .actually if you look at twonk's other posts you can see that they've been excised before now ... a troll by any other name?? I hate incense, and I too have never been into patchouli ... am I going wrong somewhere?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:43 AM

What - London or the RAH ??

As if I would be worried at the Albert Hall shutting once the concert was over.

I was in this real ale pub, just around the back of the RAH and some silly sod started ringing a bell and asking people if they knew what time it was.

I said "Three minutes past eleven " thinking I was helping, and he gave me such a stare.

So I stopped going to his pub.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:21 AM

I should also have added - Ralph Jordan (ralphie on Mudcat) has contributed to the folk proms thread and made the very sensible suggestion that anyone who enjoys the show at the Proms tonight should send a comment to R3 management.

We might then get some more!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

Sounds fabulous so far! Let's hope it wins over the doubters at the R3 MB!

Joe G

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

Another thing that might be done is to write into Pick of the Week and ask for a bit to be replayed next Sunday.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Now there is someone calling the folk proms rubbish on R3 MB! This is I presume from someone who has never heard Bellowhead

Grrr!

The annoying thing is having to wait until being out of mod for my responses to be shown.

There is also the perennial 'What is folk' question - I've just directed the poster this way and to the R2 MB to do some light reading!

I am keeping well away from the laptop while I watch tonights gig!

Hope everyone enjoys it - I'm not a huge Martin Simpson fan but I appreciate his craft - if only the antagonistic posters could do the same. Bella Hardy sounded beautiful earlier - not heard her before much.

Joe G

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

Bella Hardy sounded far better than on her CD and indeed than live at Ely. Still a bit delicate for me but getting steadily more forceful.

Martin Simpson was simply awesome. That version of Little Musgrave stands as a piece of narration with the absolute best of Peter Bellamy (althoug very different in style), and his guitar work will impress anyone who will listen - whatever their home genre.

His guitar sound was also far better than at Ely, where the PA rig was making all guitars sound scratchy, and with a litle less bass emphasis and a bit less twang it would have sounded quite like a guitar.

Bellowhead regrettably still don't do it for me, but the cellist's harmonies were nice in places. At least one major bloop from the soundman when we got an on-screen closeup of the banjo and no banjo in the sound!

Some of the talking head stuff was almost intelligent, too (and there was another major sound bloop when they left the open air and came back to a mute presenter).


A very sadly sparse audience for a top quality show (that could have been better still).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

there was another major sound bloop when they left the open air and came back to a mute presenter

It would of course have been perfect if you were in charge. You're an arsehole, Richard. Very gracious of you to admit that Bella Hardy might be any good.

I thought the whole thing was fabulous. Thank you BBC

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

It's great that they have done this - the evening broadcasts are on their way to Sonic Stage as I speak, and then to applause reduction treatment - it was far to loud, louder than the music mostly!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Bella, Chris, Karina and Martin were awesome and wonderful ambassadors for the music, but I'd love to hear what the real musicians thought of Bellowhead. I enjoyed the radio and TV coverage immensely.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

Bella and Martin were superb. Bellowhead were nervy and overwhelmed and realising that they were not able to connect in the intimate way that the pre-interval artists had achieved, which made them try even harder and look even more displaced. They seemed to be caught in an impossible follow-that moment. They were a beached whale. The last set rescued them to some extent. I don't think I'm one of those real musicians but I thought Bellowhead were way less than the sum of their parts tonight.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:29 PM

Bellowhead...were a beached whale

You must have been watching a different programme to me...

I thought that they were fantastic

I'd agree that Richard Bridge is talking twadlle

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

To Richard Bridge:
I should have your telly checked out. Benji was playing the banjo in a staccato, muted - not open stringed way and was CLEARLY audible but was almost percussive. I remember exactly the shot of which you write and it cleared up the "what's making that sound" question for me. I think you maybe don't expect to hear it played like that so didn't register it.
martin ellison

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:56 PM

I think that it's been a pretty good day for English folk music. If I may just come the curmudgeon briefly, I think we need to convince all folk performers from folk clubs right up to the Albert Hall that lengthy, ostentatious tuning sessions between songs/sets, even at the beginning of a performance, complete with "jokiness" about same, are not appreciated. When I started playing in folk clubs my wife, listening in the audience, very rapidly put me right as to how misplaced and unprofessional (not to say positively buttock-clenching) that kind of stuff sounded. Jeez, we even had a "good enough for folk"-type quip at one point. I bet Simon Rattle and the Berlin Phil lads do it all the time, eh!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM

We have ignored the commentators - Catriona McD and the other guy (who he? - sorry marketing+youth orchestra??) were so enthusiastic - thanks.

Despite Charlie's musical knowledge some daft questions.

BUT - awesome singing and fiddling from Bella - great guitar paying and singing from MS and Bellowhead?

Awesome.

What a shame they played the encore on R3 but not on the telly.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:37 PM

Anybody know if they taped the afternoon concert at all? That was the one that I really wanted to see, as the programming was much more imaginative (and I reckon interesting).

Obviously its a personal taste thing, but I'm afraid I didn't think that the evening concert as displayed on my TV could be described as Awesome ..sorry Dave. I'd go for interesting or mildly entertaining for most of it, but I'm afraid that it didn't particularly stir me ... with the exception of Martin Simpson's guitar playing and the final set from Bellowhead. I suspect that, with the added atmosphere in the hall, I might well have been more enthusiastic had I been there, but I don't think it's likely to have steered any of my unbelieving friends from the dark side into the light, or convinced any of the idiotic detractors on the Radio 3 message board. Mind you, I'm sure that was never the intention of the concert anyway!!!

What was impressive to behold, though, was the bopping up and down of the audience who were obviously having the time of their lives (envy).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:55 PM

Martin Ellison - I think you describe the second close-up shot of the banjo, not the first, when it was inaudible. It came in about at the end of the first close up, quite suddenly. I suspect the instrument's channel was left on mute while it was on its stand and the channel was not turned on when it was first picked up.

Steve Shaw - the tuning by Martin Simpson was clearly necessary. To start with he was going from one tuning to another. Secondly, the guitars were plainly going off-tune over time. I suspect it may have been something to do with heat from the lights.

Bella Hardy's violin was audibly not quite in tune when she first picked it up - and indeed she did not get it quite right first try, so the second was necessary too.

Better to tune an instrument than play it out of tune.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:05 PM

Of course tuning is a big deal and I'm not saying it isn't. Martin Simpson did an excessive amount tonight, though at least he didn't make a big thing of it to the audience. I just think that an artist should go about it expeditiously and without comment. It isn't what an audience wants to hear too much of, let alone dwell on or endure "jokes" about. It took Bellowhead longer to tune up than it usually does for a symphony orhestra. It's a necessary evil, not part of the show.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:24 PM

just listening to it in the next room.

3.15 in the morning. Either folk music starts producing something that every radio station has to take seriously - or we accept that we have a place securing a nice living for a few subsidised middle class kids. and a lot of frustrated other ranks. nothing much else.

the question Richard bridge poses in his latest thread - which tradition, the same question that SOH pose in their song Roots - has an answer, but its not one that you will like.

A music teacher once said to me - throw a stick in a roomful of music teachers and you will hit half a dozen would be organ masters of Yorkminster. we are headed in the same direction. Just athere is no great apetite for listening to church music - there is not much mileage in this stuff.

either we start producing something a bit more memorable with a bit more to say (politically and artistically) or we ARE SCREWED. the bosses have got it wrong.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:53 AM

WLD, did you not find Martin Simpson's "Little Musgrave" wholly rivetting?

And did you not find his "Never Any Good" had more than a little to say politically?

I cannot believe anyone would say that his guitarwork had little to say artistically, and his narration of "Musgrave" was IMHO masterly.

Also, whether or not I am greatly struck by Bella Hardy or by Bellowhead, surely you would accept that the spare, spare accompaniment for Bella Hardy, and the riot of sound for Bellowhead represent significant artistic statements, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: SunrayFC
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:03 AM

So good to get a fair amount of prime time dedicated to Folk.

Bella's tuning was painful. And to be fair, most of the songs were not lively enough. With so many more upbeat songs to choose from, and such an opportunity to "sell folk" to a wider audience, I think it turned out to be an opportunity missed.

But folk did get a few hours and not the usual "tucked away" spot in the early hours! Let's hope for some more.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Marje
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:23 AM

I thought Martin Simpson was simply riveting from start to finish. Yes, he had to tune and retune - so do orchestras. It was worth it.

Personally I was a bit disappointed in Bellowhead - it just sounded a bit messy, and self-indulgent at times, although it came together at the end. At times they seemed to be putting the perfomrnace before the music, unlike the other acts who always put the songs first.

But it was great to have a Folk Prom and I hope there will be more. Perhaps the presenter will have had anough answers to stop asking the "What is Folk?" question ad nauseam. (I've never heard them asking "What is Romantic/Classical music?" re the normal concert repertoire.)

I just wish I'd taped it, to listen to Martin Simpson again (and the beginning, which I missed, and the encore, which they cut). I'll see if they have it on a Pod-thingy and try to get it that way

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Trevor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM

I wish everybody tuned their guitars with as much art as Martin Simpson. Can anybody tell me what his second number was please?

Wasn't mad keen on Bella.

I'm a big fan of Bellowhead and, yes, I thought they were a bit like rabbits in the headlights for a while - I thought Paul Sartin's intros were a bit stilted. The sound balance coming out of my telly was dreadful although the dance sets came across pretty well. And did anybody else find that the 'simultaneous' Radio 3 transmission was somewhat less than simultaneous?

I love what Bellowhead are doing, and they've managed to get my early son and his partner turned on to traditional music in a way that I've never been able to.

And how about Jon Boden for the next Doctor Who!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:40 AM

Well the way to "get more" is to write to the controller of radio 3 and say so.

WLD If the "middle-class kids" have managed to acquire subsidies, then anyone who themselves have managed to jump through the various hoops associated with arts funding will tell you they have done well.

I assume that you have carefully researched the backgrounds of the people on stage last night. I know one of them very well. His father and mother are about as working-class as you can get, you don't get all that many middle-class where he comes from, and he himself is a welder. To my knowledge he has never received a penny of subsidy in his life.

But I am interested to hear what subsidies they have received - would you be kind enough to tell us? I am sure that the "other ranks" would be interested to know, they might consider appling for them too.

And where does Martin Simpson - who seems to earn his living constantly gigging - fit in to the "middle-class kids"? His is 54.

I happen to think you are so wrong - but I am interested to know who you would put on a Folk Prom bearing in mind it would be to represent English music "politically and artistically".

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:48 AM

As one who was in the audience, I think it's fair to say that if there were any problems with Bellowhead's sound, they were in the transmission mix rather than in the auditorium. They certainly didn't look or sound like rabbits in the headlights from where I was sitting, and indeed had had a good chance to warm up in the afternoon, playing for maybe a thousand people at the bandstand in Kensington Gardens...those were a mix of folkies and non-folkies, and Bellowhead blew them away.

I thought they were having the time of their lives, actually.

Anyway, it was a good day for folk, I think.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Trevor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:51 AM

Sorry, don't know why my son is 'early'!

And yes, I know one of those people that were on stage as well - I know that this person struggled to get by for years whilst trying to make a career in music, that their parents could only give them encouragement and not subsidy and that they remain self-effacing, approachable, hard working and totally committed to their art.

What are you on about WLD?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Trevor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:54 AM

Yes Ruth, I was pretty sure the sound issue was as a result of the transmission. I've seen Bellowhead a number of times in all sorts of settings and they blow me away as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

the presenters seemed rather patronising and Charles Hazlewood despite his background asked some pretty dumb questions. his final slip of the tongue "goodbye from this fiasco" summed up his own performance.
john

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:49 AM

Firstly, lets clear up some of the techie questions.

The various channels from (the two) stages would have been split probably 4 ways, One to the FOH desk (Hall PA) One to the stage monitor board, another to the TV Scanner Along with their presentation se-up, and one to Radio 3 truck, witch normally lives outside door 11, along with Verities permanent BBC box in the Loggia.

The 4 mixes obviously are for different purposes.
As far as TV is concerned, the mix can be somewhat weird to the listener without the vision, as the guy doing it is following the vision mix to some extent, also adding more audience FX when the shot is of the crowd.

Normally works very well with an orchestra, where you know when the solo's are going to happen (After all you've got a score to look at)

But with Bellowhead, who almost certainly don't play from a score!! It's all a bit seat of the pants stuff.

Hence the different radio mix, which doesn't have to bother with the pictures, and can therefore concentrate purely on the Audio, therefore being more listenable.

I video'd the gig via Freeview, and Recorded the R3 via DAB.
Having listened back to both they are obviously differnt. Proved by the fact that Bellas first intro was fine on R3 but missing on TV!!

Please believe me and I know, because I've done it. It's not easy to rig circuits to the middle of the Arena. It involves crawling under the floor, Hard hat area!!

As for transmission paths. Now that we are in the digital world. It takes a finite time to do all the number crunching. The nearest to a live TX would have been R3 on FM, After that depending on where you live, Freeview and DAB could be anything up to half to a second out.

Hence the reason that simulcasts that used to be so popular during Proms in the 70's (Vision on TV, Sound on R3) are really unworkable nowadays.

Hope this clears some of the Tech stuff up.

Considering the relative complexity of the various rigs, and the fact that the crew only had 3 hours to turn the whole place around after the rather large afternoon Prom. I thought it went reasonably well. (Sound of doffing caps at this point)

As for the artists......

Will get back after some tea!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:49 AM

I enjoyed it but thought the transmission did not do Bellowhead justice, I missed Bella Hardy but caught Martin Simspon whose guitar work was amazing. The most irritating thing was the commentary and discussion which was facile-if all the very best the BBC can come up with is someone continually asking the question What is folk? then we will no be progressing very far-No one sits down with placido domingo and continually asks the question -what is classical music? Charles Hazlewood realy irritated me. When they switched to the park, then the usual tactic of 'spend all the camera time on the commentator rather than the activity' kicked in. Sorry I hate the BBC and what it has done to dumb down everything in this country.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: mattkeen
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:13 AM

Bellowhead can be very difficult to mix - just cos of the cpmplexity of the sound and the numbers of musicians involved.
(In fact through experience, I can say that orchestras are easier - instruments are generally grouped and have their own clear frequency range, as an example)

Also, musicially Bellowhead make a very interweaved sound, both melodically and rhythmically, and I have head them sometimes be marvellous and uplifting where earlier on in the same gig they were more like a big noise. Seems to me they are brilliant and adventurous, and that means that they sometimes fall over.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:13 AM

Both the vision mixer and director were old colleagues of mine from Blue Peter, so the two recordings I made (via Freeview and R3 digital captured by Audio Hijack Pro) gave a whole new meaning to "here are two I made earlier" when I played back and compared them during last night. Different though they were, I could detect no evidence of Bellowhead being "frightened in the headlights". The pre-transmission interview with Jon B & Paul S set the mood: confident, enthusiastic and joyous. Having seen the band many times since their debut at Oxford over four years ago when it was possible to describe the profusion of onstage music stands and intense hard looks at each other as a small muddle, they have now well and truly arrived and the musical expertise of each shines through as a cohesive whole.

It was a small misfortune that Bella Hardy started off out of tune and I really could have done without Charles Hazlewood's patronising crap (couldn't Verity Sharp have presented?) but even Martin Simpson looked unusually happy onstage, as I think we all should be at such a triumphant achievement.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:17 AM

Hello Linda

"What Is Folk?"

Good Question. I think it's about time we discussed this subject!

As for Mr Hazlewood....Couldn't agree more. Luckily I had the chance to listen to Verity and Ian McMillan on R3.

They should have been on TV to add a modicum of Knowledge and Gravitas.
Mr H's interview with Mssrs Boden and Sartin was ball clutchingly awful. John and Paul must have wondered why they'd agreed to such a travesty of an interview.

As for the two gigs as a whole.

The first one was pretty interesting with the Juxtaposition of Muzsikas and Bartok. Bellas Seventeen come Sunday followed by the Vaughan Williams Folk song suite was also thought provoking.
The Climax of Kathryns "Confluence" did demonstrate what can happen when genres collide. Nice end

Could have done with out the Berio bit!

(It says in Radio Times.....
Monica Bacelli (Mezzo)
Bella Hardy (Singer.....???)

Nuff said.

Prom 2, didn't get off to such a great start with Bellas tuning problems, but she recovered well. Mr Simpson was, well Mr Simpson. Sublime playing et al.

Bellowhead. I've mentioned the tecchie stuff above, but there are arrangements are always fascinating. and thought they did rather well considering the circs, and that they had already done an open air gig in the afternoon.

Now you wouldn't get the Halle doing that would you??!!

In all, a bit of a curates egg of a day. Just happy that it happened at all.
Memo to Mr Appleby, was it Mike W doing the mix for R3 in the evening?

Sounded like his touch!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:39 AM

Just one question at this juncture. Where was the infrastructure which might have made Joe Public want to find out more about 'folk' music, either in the park - or at the RAH? Apart from one bloke handing out leaflets for some festival based at Camden, there was no EFDSS stall, nothing about folk festivals anywhere in the country, nothing - not even a beer tent!

Musikasz were superb. Made my day. Folkestra were the antidote needed after a challenging set of European folk song arrangements sung by a mezzo-soprano with as much stage presence as a loaf of bread. I'm not a Martin Simpson fan, but I was mesmerised by his version of 'Little Musgrave'. I endured Bellowhead - but the secret lies in the performance rather than in what they perform. In this, Bellowhead excel, going for sound and presence before everything else. If this makes the incoming generation want to explore deeper, that's okay by me. I'm not sure they were the right choice to showcase 'folk' to a 'classicial' audience if this indeed was the case, but I can see this would only be one contribution to a debate which will long continue. At least we now have a debate!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:47 AM

Hey Mr Gadaffi...

Loaf of bread.....Yep!.

As for the rest, yesterdays gig only scratched the surface, as I'm sure you understand.
Plenty more ideas for future Proms Methinks (Can see those Toffs at Radio 3 sharpening their little cleavers!)

"At least we now have a debate"...........OH NO!!

Not another one, Grumble....exiting stage left, tripping over Mr Floods cutlery department....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

What, no bitter and twisted comments about "folk royalty", for once? I guess their absence from the concert silenced their detractors. Seriously though, it's good to be able to show that the folk scene has both breadth and depth that goes well beyond whatever the media show regularly. A very good day for folk, and thanks be to Beeb.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:02 AM

I don't think the BBC was all that bothered about people finding out about more folk - and it was their gig. As far as I know, they didn't invite EFDSS to have a stall. The bit in the park was interesting, from the tea-towel-sized dance tent to the lack of anywhere to buy refreshments...it was like a festival organised by someone who had never been to a festival. Again, some information point there would have been ideal, but it didn't seem particularly well though through. But the music went down really well, and though it was slightly surreal seeing grownups dancing around the mini-maypole, so did the dance. The audience loved Bellowhead, and people who were sufficiently excited by what they saw will no doubt find out more - the internet is a beautiful thing.

Derek and I were leafleting for the EFDSS Vaughan Williams event(on 4 October, folks!) after Bellowhead, but there are 12 doors, so it's hard to cover them all...

I have to say that I think Sam Sweeney is a great addition to the Bellowhead lineup - not just because of his musicianship, but because of the joy and exhuberance with which he plays. It's a delight to see a band enjoying what they're doing that much.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:10 AM

Hi George.
Well it was mentioned to me that maybe some heavyweights like Waterson/Carthy should have been on the bill, but Hey....
This is the peoples music.
As I've said before, a valiant attempt with some lovely moments.
Trying to shoe horn trad music into what is, normally a very blinkered classical environment is frought with danger.
I thought that the trad element sat in quite nicely. Especially the Kathryn Tickell piece. Loved her intro when she said that she had sent the arrangement to the orchestra, and that "Don't worry about those bars, it'll all work out on the night" or words to that effect.
And indeed it did. Listening to it again as I type!

The Future is Bright....The Future is Orange (Woops sorry that was an advert!)

See Ya Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:14 AM

Yes, Sam Sweeney is a fantastic asset (though it's sad not to see Giles up there . . . )

Entirely off topic, and if Mr Lewin is lurking out there, maybe he'll be persuaded to do more work with Vivienne Ellis now.

Back to Bellowhead, I should clarify that the Jon'n'Paul i/v came off well because they are now so used to ignoring fatuous questions (regardless of who's asking, especially if their name is Hazlewood) and saying what they need to say. Which they did.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:41 AM

Yes it probably was the BBC's 'gig', so it was their largesse to distribute. Accepted, but none was forthcoming.

Just one thought: when Malcolm Taylor OBE (EFDSS Director of Library) gets requests from the BBC to do some vital part of research for some programme they have in mind, I feel it potential for pay back time. I fielded one call from Malcolm concerning a Sandy Toksvig programme based on Dungeness people and how they wanted 'traditional singers' for it. After a day wasted dashing round making calls and emails, we were rewarded by one self-penned song by Paul Sirman who runs the Orpington folk club. Maybe it's time to restore Test Match Special to its rightful slot - on Radio Three! This time on FM!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

"What Is Folk?"
Good Question. I think it's about time we discussed this subject!"

Ralphie, you little provocateur, you!! Behave ... take 1000 lines "I must not provoke the horse ...." immediately!!

I'm glad you put that info about the technicalities in. I'd been meaning to make the observation last night that the balance on my TV sound seemed a little wanting in various areas (eg banjo predominating over brass at one point to the extent of being very noticeable, not to mention the lack of any sound from the vocal mikes on more than one occasion), but had the feeling that with two stages, and three set ups of very differing nature glitches were going to be only to be expected ... which is more or less what youv'e said, n'est-ce pas?

And Gadaffi - your endurance of Bellowhead was noted when you came into shot in the applause at the end !!![grins] I look forward to a continuation of the debate in person at Sidmouth - no doubt?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM

Gadaffi, that's the BBC all over (as you probably know) - didn't you realise it's an honour and a privilege to tear-arse around doing their research and dirty work, and get absolutely no credit...?

;0)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:06 AM

Thanks for the warning, Irene. I'll put off watching the DVD. Lawrence gave them a standing ovation tho' - enthusiastic fellow that he is. I confess, there were a few times when I wondered how the lads were doing at Headingley, or who won the Ambridge tug o' war.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:28 AM

I liked the programme however I just didn't like that Martin Simpson, it was like watching grass grow, the man well according to me was so boring, I felt like slashing my wrists.

he was dull as dishwater.

mind you I like lively music played by people that are alive, Martin Simpson get a life, sing happy songs that we can sing along to and clpa our hands, instead of the boring dull stuff.

but that's just me

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Far, Far too much inane chatter and presentation, not enough music. Martin Simpson was brilliant, Sorry Goatfell, Martin does do happy and singalong too, but this set was a showcase for his playing. Very cross when Beeb cut off The Prickle-eye bush in mid intro :<

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: melodeonboy
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:12 AM

Those that were actually there will have (ideally!) a wider perspective on it than me. For example, I imagine I would have noted the absence of a beer tent, too!

I can also understand why some people were niggled by some of the chit-chat, some of which was neither entertaining nor informative.

I do, however, think that the broader picture is a very positive one. Having only seen it on the box, not only did I enjoy it, but I thought it was so positive that the BBC devoted so much air time (relative to what folk music usually gets!) on both radio and television. I hope that they'll put it into one of those "BBC4 on BBC2" slots so that those with only terrestial channels will have a chance to see it.

So many of us have been complaining for so long about lack of exposure for the music, and there was far more about these broadcasts to be praised than to be criticised. Let's hope it's not just a flash in the pan!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM

"...there was far more about these broadcasts to be praised than to be criticised". Spot on, melodeonboy. Sure, there were things that could have been done better, or less/more depending on your point of view, other artists that might have replaced those that were there for a better/worse overall effect. But nitpicking on whether Bella's intros were informative or inane, on whether Martin's singing was at its best or whether Jon Boden should have shaved or not (yes, someone commented dismissively on this on the Radio 3 board...) is missing the point.

But I will bitch about one thing: That CH bloke did not impress him, I must say, insincerity personified I thought. And Jon Boden did VERY well not to nut him when he announced him as "John Speers" (my spelling).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

A bit of traditional style folk wouldn't have gone amiss with me, to put the intricate arrangements style of Hardy, Simpson and Bellowhead in some cultural context. Just as the BBC used to like Butterworth and Vaughan Wiiliams orchestral arrangements, or Britten/Pear piano and tenor recitals, the new fashion is for complex educated arrangemets. English traditional melody is strong: it can withstand the metronomic precision of Bella Hardy's "Searching fo Lambs" with all that complex stuff on a rigid 5/4 rhythm(the collectoirs put 5/4 in their notebooks to indicate roughly what was going on, not to imply the rhyhmic rigidity). But wouldn't it be nice if the audience could also be treated to the rhythmic fluidity of style that characterised the way these melodies have been sung and developed in the "ever rolling stream" of the traition? There are singers who can still sing in this way: the over-fussy experiments have their place in every generation, but it would be nice, in one of these flagship type occasions, if the old ways weree allowed a look-in. Surely if the innovations are serious and heart-felt, they will be able to stand comparsion?
    Basically, it was a worthy occasion, but too sanitised for my taste. Folk music is different, so why try to merge it into being the same? Stand in the middle of Padstow on Mayday and you will hear folk percussion, folk melody and folk singing. But I don't think the BBC, or its allies in the folk establishment and the folk media, will ever put that syle of traditional music centre stage now: it will always be relegated to a bit of local colour for a Rick Stein sardine recipe!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

Mind you... I wouldn't mind being in Jon's shoes, even if CH mispronounced my name! Well done Jon and John, and not just for Bellowhead either...

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

We were there all day, and well done the BBC for putting it on.

Agree with a lot of the criticisms, particularly
The bit in the park was interesting, from the tea-towel-sized dance tent to the lack of anywhere to buy refreshments...it was like a festival organised by someone who had never been to a festival
indeed, some food and drink stalls would have been very welcome. We bumped into Sam Sweeney and he asked us if there was anywhere to get something to eat (looking longingly at the sandwiches we had just been into Kensington High Street to get)

And we too could have done without the Berio bit. 25 minutes felt more like 25 hours……….

Other comments:
the tickets for the Free afternoon Prom in the RAH "sold" out quite some time ago
that was true according to the website, but sadly there were lots of empty spaces including at least 6 whole segments of the 'Grand Tier'. Did people claim their tickets then just not bother to turn up, or do some people buy their seat for the whole series?

Bella Hardy sounded far better than on her CD and indeed than live at Ely
Don't agree with that at all, Bella sounds great on her CD and she sounded great at Ely as well. She did really well, especially in the first concert when she sat on the little stage all by herself, waiting for her bit. She sat through all the Berlio stuff and then the first half finished - they could have let her go off earlier!

I look forward to watching my recording tonight, and also listening how they presented it on the radio.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

"Martin Simpson get a life, sing happy songs that we can sing along to and clpa our hands, instead of the boring dull stuff.

but that's just me "

Bit unfair to judge someone on such a short sample, don't you think?

But maybe that's just you.

I've been listening to Martin for over 15 years and I find him totally inspirational.

But maybe that's just me.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

Ah, What the hell.
Many congratulations to all involved, and to the Beeb for daring to do it.
We could all spend the rest of our lives pontificating who, what, where, when, why.
Does it amount to a hill of beans? I don't think so.
It was for me, lovely to see some old friends sticking it up the bums of the congnescenti!!!!

Perfect....No
Bit of fun.....Yes!

In my humble opinion of course

On to the next event......Folkies take over BIG BROTHER.....Discuss

(Mmmmm, thinking about it....I could see some interesting 4am discussions!! (You add your names....I've got mine!)

Hugs Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: melodeonboy
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

Yes, leveller. A bit over the top to tell someone to "get a life" (naff , overused expression anyway) for the "crime" of not playing happy-clappy music.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:55 AM

"Martin Simpson Sings The Wurzels"...
Doesn't bear thinking!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:00 AM

nah, he couldn't do the accent.....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

don't get me wrong here, but Martin Simpson in that short piece that he did was a bit boring, and yet when Bellowhead were the place was jumping, and nearly everyone was having a good time, but as for Martin Simpson I wouldn't play money to see him, a good singer and guitarist though, and the songs he sang were good, but as I say I just love different songs some long and boring and some you can sing along to, but Martin Simpson was just boring that's all.

mind you there are quite a lot of folk musicians like that as well, I go and sit and listen them give them their due, but when I see that they are coming to the folk club, (where I sing and play) I just have a night off.
I like the sing along stuff, stuff you can join in with.

am I wrong for enjoying myself and coming home after a folk concert horse but happy from singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:25 AM

Didn't you just know the equine contingent would be along? What kept you?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:40 AM

Mrs Annie ... regarding the empty seats. You'll normally find those for most concerts at the Royal ALbert Hall, which has a large number of seats which are owned by debenture holders. In order for them to be put up for sale (or even, I suppose to be given away) the debenture holder has to agree to that happening.This therefore means that for most concerts 100% of the seats are not going to be available for sale. So not a case of people obtaining the tickets and not turning up - more a case that they were never up for grabs in the first place.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:57 AM

Seems we are not alone in disliking Mr Hazlewood's approach to being a talking head !

Try here

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

Goatfell, go and see Martin live; his introductions are hilarious - like the reason he called his last but one album Righteousness and Humidity and why he took all references to god out of When a Knight Won His Spurs (because anyone who talks to George Bush on equal terms dosen't deserve to be in a song). He does a lot of upbeat stuff as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:57 AM

I've seen him play loads of times - so you're the one rolling in the aisles. I thought it was some sort of affliction.

He's a terrific guitarist, but if you're looking for a night of unbridled hilarity - well there are more obvious choices.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:02 PM

Let me join forces with Ralphie on this one.

Excellent show - if you want to write to someone write to Roger Wright at Radio 3 asking for more.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:05 PM

I flamin well loved it... I wish it had been 2 days and more artists if I had to grumble but I really enjoyed it all :)

As far as the Beeb are concerned... they have been denying folk traditional and otherwise from the limelight for too long. It really peeved me off that they create 1xtra, radio 6 and 7 and not have created a folk one. Screw the classic snobs, I was brought up with both and have seen several events at RAH and love it as a venue.

I knew when I was watching Bella singing on the centre stage that the Beeb would omit a lot of it, I was hoping that they would provide a podcast but all I could find was the flippin !player (my little joke for the programmers among us) aka iplayer which is only available for a week!!! wtf!!! PODCAST IT BEEB3! let the masses have access to beautiful art, stop suppressing it!

It was great to see you Ruth... hope to see you in a couple of weeks :D

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:53 PM

Indeedio! 10 days and counting!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

Did anyone notice that The Times said that there were 'no big names' in the Folk Proms? Martin Simpson?! Bellowhead?! If they are not big, then who is? It does betray ignorance of the folk movement on the part of the media as a whole - unless you're on TV or Radio 1 you're not a big name.

As for the concert, Mrs Tradsinger and I enjoyed it immensely. Bella came across as very confident, personable and with a good television face (whatever that is). People have commented on the sparseness of the accompaniments but they were well thought out with nice changes of chord, dynamics and pace. Martin is obviously a class act but we felt a lack of change of pace - after Matty Groves, the rest of his set was at the same pace. I know, that's what he does, but for me and Mrs T it would have been improved by something a bit quicker later in the set.

Bellowhead sounded fine to us but I read with interest the difference between hearing them in the flesh and on TV where you are in the hands of the sound technicians. The estactic audience reaction told us that they were doing just fine and I cannot accept the theory that they were phased by the venue or the TV or the occasion.

Agree with the comments about the MC. I shuddered when he commented it was brave of Bella to sing unaccompanied! Where has this man been? The Beeb has not yet shrugged off their patronising attitude towards folk music.

Lastly, we thought it was a sin to cut BH off as soon as they started Prickelie Bush.

However, despite all the above, it's chink of light at the end of the tunnel. People like Bella, Martin and Bellowhead can only give folk music a good name.

More, more, more, please, and tell it to the BBC.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:11 PM

Some great info and comments on this thread. It was particularly useful to see the reasons for the bad mixes of Bellowhead and though I didn't find their performance good TV I could empathise with the enthusiasm of the audience. I don't know why they bothered with the words though. They were very much in the background to the music, as opposed to what Martin and Bella did.

I am no big fan of singer guitarists and don't remember ever seeing Martin Simpson before, but his Little Musgrove really was awesome in every sense, and I warmed to some of his other stuff.

Bella's treatment of the Night Visiting theme was also absolutely excellent and I thoroughly enjoyed the trio's unintrusive accompaniments. Yes the tuning and patter were excrutiating, but she is young and will improve on this. I've seen her a few times over the last year and she is coming on in leaps and bounds. She came across so confidently both in performance and interview, particularly for one so young.
Well done to all concerned!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

The operatic style singing at the end of the afternoon concert was hideous......HIDEOUS, I enjoyed Bella & Martin very much, but.....the applause was louder than the music......bad! As for Bellowhead, well I listened to my off air recording of Home Service on A Little Night Music instead - absolute magic. The orchestral attempts at Graingering were feeble.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:39 PM

Have just watched the prog via BBC iPlayer (praise the Lord - it's a fantastic invention!!))

I thought the concert/prom, whatever you want to call it, was fantastic!!

Folk Music at The Proms - never thought I'd see the day! GREAT!!!

"What is folk?" - we could open up the old 1954 definition here OR, OR, we could just agree to disagree, and say that it was a part of Our world that was being shown to the outside world - let there be more of it!!!!

Whether you liked/disliked Ms Hardy, Mr Simpson or Bellowhead or not or the way that they played/performed - that is not important!!!

What IS important is that the "tradition", HOWEVER it is being interpreted, is being passed on to a live audience, MANY/MOST of which were clearly enjoying it!!!

Two of the three performers are young/younger than a large number of performers - they managed to get those in the Albert Hall rocking, toe tapping, swaying and going home whistling/singing tunes!!! Well done to them for that - we might see some up and coming performers in folk clubs and festivals in the future who have been influenced by those that we have just watched.

This has been a very interesting thread with some interesting comments from many of the "usual suspects"!!

Diane Easby - I am pleasantly suprised by your comments here (in comparrison to many comments on other threads).

Richard Bridge - Hoff, just lighten up a little - the experienced, and often traditional performers, are great, BUT, like it or not, the mantle of "Folk" is passing into the hands of another generation. I thought you would have like that.

Trevor - John Boden for the next Doctor Who. I LIKE that idea :-)

It was unsual, it was daring, it was different. "Folk" had a slot in a place where it normally would not. It wasn't perfect, it might not have "flipped all of the buttons and switches", BUT IT WAS THERE, and Joe Public got a taste of it.

If we, and they, push it, then hopefully we will get more coverage in a more prominent slot in years to come.

Let's be POSITIVE PLEASE!!!

Kev

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:00 PM

The tuning issue so frequently referred to in this thread was not even worth commenting on. Bella performed beautifully and plaintively, with a lovely touch of fragility to boot. Little Musgrave and Martin's song about his dad were wonderful. And try to cut Mr CH a bit of slack. He was not addressing a bunch of Mudcat folkies but a Beeb audience not entirely au fait with what we're all about. OK, it wasn't his finest hour, but he wasn't not on our side either.

If you have DVD-RAM recorder, and it's connected to your hi-fi,use a RAM disc and start to record the programme, then hit time-slip. You'll hear the programme in perfect sync, and you'll only be a few seconds behind the rest of the nation if you're quick. OK, it will be the telly pic and the telly sound, not the R3 sound, but still a lot better than relying just on the rotten sound of a mono telly. Where I am in Cornwall the R3 sound was in perfect sync with the picture.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

Well I personally had an amazing, brilliant time and Mr Roger Wright was dancing in the ceilidh and he told me afterwards he thought the whole day had been a real success - so the folkies have got the thumbs up from the controller of R3 and master of the Proms.

Many thanks to anyone who was there until the bitter end and joined in the dancing

Sarah

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Sorry for the blatant plug, but I'm putting on Bella in Southport in December if anyone's interested.

And, with Martin Simpson doing Chris Wood's 'Come Down Jehovah' I thought I'd mention that I'm putting Chris Wood on in November too.

Sorry, but I thought if anyone was interested, they might want to know.

Cheers,
Richard.
(07841 842137 for details)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:54 PM

Not as good as a folk club though - or a small festival. you gotta face it, the BBC are a long way adrift from us lot. they're sort of on another planet.......Those concerts with Kate Rusby were a bit of a dog's breakfast as well.

the best thing on dvd I've seen recently is Guitar Maestros series - theres real intimacy in that series. That video of SOH's gig at the Albert Hall wasn't bad either - it was quite matey.

This thing of just taking a video camera , or even a film team to a gig - well it doesn't really work, does it?.. I can't really explain why. I think we neeed more skilled film makers to capture what folkmusicicians actually do.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

Quite right Al.

I seem to remember Mike Harding doing a series including some Applachian fiddlers 25 years or so ago, that was small and intimate too.

The series of Tony Capstick at Buxton Opera House was inexecrable - but being a no household telly I don't get to see much anway.

(We had a small Bellowhead party last night - bottle or two of wine and a a lot of a bottle of Bushmills. Shame there were only two of us).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

Filming big folk concerts is crap: discuss!
Is this the way to present folk music (which is special and totally different): as if it was just the same? This is a question that is raised in a lot of posts on this thread, explicitly and implicitly. Interesting, perhaps? Is the Albert Hall or the Cambridge Folk Festival, or whatever, the yardstick by which to judge music which is meant to be seriously culturally embedded?
   On the Radio 3 discussion thread, where a few hardline classicists have queried what folk is doing in the Proms at all, we have seen the decision being defended by folkies pointing out that half of Bellowhead have got degrees in Folkology at the University of Folkiness or Whatever, as if that was a Good Thing.Is that the solution, or is that part of the problem? Is this kind of "arranged folk" in "high places" really the direction that folk music is going to go? And if so, do we all want to follow?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM

Not exactly true Greg. Speaking for myself who detailed some of the qualifications that you don't actually mention, I know I was replying to the suggestion from a classicist that those appearing were little better than buskers who knew three chords.

And that's why qualifications came up. In order to educate the classicists. (Between you and me I listed three - the only three I knew!!)

Not that I have any problem with people doing degrees in whatever they want.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

Its certainly one debate you could take from this, Greg. But what you're saying is controversial. I think it would be more helpful if we could explain to the BBC where they were continually going wrong. One or two decent folk programmes shouldn't be beyond the powers of the BBC.

My point would be be - why don't the BBC get a team together who know what they're doing. The Kate Rusby concerts - you couldn't really fault the musicianship. but the filming made it hard to enjoy.

If you can capture every nuance, grimace and naughty word when Gordon ramsey is racing round a kitchen - why is it so hard to capture what six blokes do on a stage - not running round at all.

perhaps some folk acts just make good television and some don't. I always liked the few occasions when derek brimstone got a break in front of the camera. Once in a pub at Sidmouth for a couple of songs, and one song on The Fivepenny Piece Show - not much for a forty five year career.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:17 AM

"Is this kind of "arranged folk" in "high places" really the direction that folk music is going to go? And if so, do we all want to follow?"

Hmmm...I've been contemplating this lately from another angle. The afternoon Prom should have at least educated the claccisists about just how much composers such as RVW and Percy Grainger "borrowed" from folk music - one might even say "nicked wholesale". On the one hand, this brought the music to a wider audience - but at what price? Perhaps at the turn of the 20th century folk music was perceived to receive some legitimisation and credibility by being arranged and presented orchestrally. If you look at the responses on the BBC 3 website this is definitely the perception. On its own, folk is apparently a few inept musicians playing 3 chords and ghastly caterwauling (to borrow a phrase) - but arrange it orchestrally and it becomes "proper" music.

It's interesting, because I think this comes back to some discussions we had in the thread discussing Eliza Carthy's article on the Proms for the Guardian. Some people who enjoy both folk and classical music were concerned that others (including me) were setting ourselves up in opposition to classical music. The truth is, classical music is already set up in opposition to many other music forms - there is an innate sense of its superiority to all other musics within the ranks of many classical fans, and the "high culture" bias of the funding system in the UK means that it'sfunded out of all proportion to its audiences.

Personally, I don't think you need to mess about with folk music to legitimise it. This is quite different from messing about with folk music because it's interesting, or fun (like Bellowhead's arrangements, for instance). But, as an example, I'm not sure how hearing Grainger's "Shepherd's Hey" arranged orchestrally really edified me. More to the point, I couldn't really understand why he'd done it. To make it acceptable to a certain type of audience with quite narrow musical horizons? Looking at the responses to the folk Prom on the BBC board (along the lines of "I like this music when it's arranged and played properly, but not in its raw, peasant form"), I can't help feeling that by begging from the scraps off the classical table, both artistically and financially, we're doing traditional music a great disservice.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:29 AM

Indeed. In the Vaughan Williams documentary there was a shot of a chamber group playing Dives & Lazarus. The caption said RVW: First performed 1920. Really? Now if it had been session musicians playing Star Of The County Down or someone in an Irish pub singing Dominic Behan's Crooked Jack lyrics, that would be "raw and peasant", I suppose . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:43 AM

Dives and Lazarus made me really angry the first time I heard it. I actually cried. (Admittedly, some wine may have been taken at the time...)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:24 AM

Whaddya mean "lighten up" - that IS me being positive

Bella Hardy - better than her CD, and better than Ely

Martin Simpson - better than Ely and awesome

"top quality show (that could have been better still)"



What do I need to do to show approval, gush like Mad Lizzie?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

but no one has mentioned that he sings songs that you can join in with, I mean you can't join in with an introduction can you? but if I did go and see him live, which he was on the Proms on BBC 4 I feel as if I'm being bullied by the Martin Simpson fan club, I just like songs that you can join in with I mean it that a crime, maybe that's why Martin Simpson hasn't played up here in Scotland, and if he did I would go and see him and then tell what I think, but what I saw on Television was a bit boring, maybe he does songs that you can join in with, mind you there some groups/singers that are like that where you can't join in with them, even if they are good.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

Just read the review in today's (Tuesday's) Times. The reviewer (Geoff Brown) approaches his topic from the point of view of 'Serious Music' looking in - Radio Three vs. The World.

And yes, the RAH acoustics are notorious if you wish to analyse any performer's diction. I had the same problem listening to the Watersons in concert there a year ago.

The only thing he said I can agree with, is that Folk Day was something of a missed opportunity for lover of Serious Music and Folk/Traditional Music alike, for completely different reasons.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

Mmmm indeed The Sainted Ms Archer makes a good point.
Particularly liked the "Knicked wholesale" bit!

How about this for an idea. Why not take Benjamin Brittens Piano arrangements of Folk song. and replace the God Awful Peter Pears with some of the best of the revival singers, or indeed, with a bit of computer wizadry (pitch shifting, etc) use the old field recordings if they still exist.

(Memo to self, must apply for my Arts Council grant!!)

Not sure how it would sound, but it I would contend, that the "Folk" community would listen with an enquiring mind, and like it or not, would at the very least find it an interesting concept, look at the imagined Village project for example.

I have a sneaky feeling that the Classical Johnnies, would turn it down flat, probably without giving it a listen, as "Not Proper at all".

It just occurs to me that the introspective naval gazing about "What is Folk" that happens here and in other forums, is absolutely a slight breeze compared to the hurricane of horror from the classical wallies, when anybody dares to tinker with their "Posh" music.

I mean look at the opprobrium heaped on Nigel Kennedy. I think he was snubbed by the Proms for something like 20 years, only getting back to the Albert this year.

Why did they let him back? Because 1, he's a bloody good fiddler and 2. He puts bums on seats.

Just a few ramblings, what do you lot think?

Have a Sunny day Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:15 AM

People do join in with martin simpson - but n a very muted sort of way. I wonder if that's why Bert jansch left Scotland - were people saying sod all that needle of death stuff Bert, lets have the wild rover!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:25 AM

I can help with the grant app, Ralphie...:)

To be fair, there are narrow-minded folk audiences as well - it can be challenging to programme the kind of music you suggest as a stand-alone concert, as the ticket takeup can be rather indifferent - those events work as part of a festival, though, where people are already there and they think, "What the hell - I'll go in and listen for a bit. I can always nip out if I don't like it."

Jim Moray has been experimenting woth the kinds of crossovers you describe and I think it's really exciting.

I think the big difference for me is that folk audiences don't generally assume that their music is superior to other forms.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:33 AM

Times - "Where are the words"

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:37 AM

Whilst I couldn't go along with the description of Martin Simspon as an evening of side splitting merriment, you've got to admit he's a barrel of laughs compared to Bert.

goatfell you summon up visions of audiences in kilts swaying in time to the whisky and singing, An' wi you, and with you, and with you me Johnny lad.....

Its not really like that where you live, is it?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:54 AM

Ruthie.

I was thinking rather more of a recording project than a live show.
Mind you, A night at the Barbican with all the artists dressed to the nines.....sounds like fun!
Would have to a good Pianist....Huw Warren perhaps? He plays in all sorts of musical genres, and a very fine accompanist as his work with June Tabor and others, proves.

For the source singer bits, we could have a Wax Cylinder player on stage, and (Yes, of course, the vocal would have to played in from computer, or whatever), With someone pretending to crank the thing up.

And, we could make it a black tie event for the audience too. After all Folkies are notorious cross dressers. Well the men anyway, Mind you, it would be in keeping with Mr Brittens proclivities (Allegedly, he said quickly)

And, because it would look a bit sparse with only 2 people and a Bosendorfer on etage, we could have a complete visual backdrop.
Maybe Holograms of Joseph Taylor too.....


Nurse!.....The drugs have finally kicked in !!!!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:56 AM

Typo alert....I went all French for a moment there... For "etage" read "stage"
But you knew that....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM

Like the sound of the Arts Council project ... that would be really interesting to hear... although sneakily I think I would rather listen to the original singers singing "au naturel".

However, if you're going to put up the idea of dressing a la composer, I wouldn't suggest putting up any of Percy Grainger's stuff (that rules out good old Joseph) - not unless you want to wear terry towelling that is ... and then how do you manage to portray Percy's proclivities (that sounds rather lascivious ... mind you , bearing in mind those proclivities, maybe that's appropriate!!)

As to the typo alert ... well shucks, I thought you were just taking it upmarket a bit. At least it was the correct word in French!!

Re the horrors of the Radio 3 Performance messageboard, I've sat down three or four times to compose a riposte to some of the awful garbage and tripe that is being poured forth, but in the end gave up, as it's patently clear that most of them are extremely blinkered, and I decided that there was no point. There are one or two sane posters on there, but they are very much in the minority. What most of them seem to have ignored is the fact that the Beeb's own "History of the Proms" page points out that the Proms were started to introduce a wide variety of music performed to a high standard to the general public - nowhere does it say that that was to be "classical" music. As someone who has performed and enjoyed classical music as a choral singer, alongside my major passion for traditional song, I find the blinkered compartmentalisation displayed very, very sad.

Maybe I'll go over there and post the quote from Carlos Santana ...
"All music is important if it comes from the heart"

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM

Funny enough, I was thinking Andrew Cronshaw in his less experimentative stage - whose projects included June Tabor, Ian Blake, Huw Warren, Ric Saunders and Martin Simpson as co-collaborators. I recall the wow factor kicking in at Bracknell far too long ago during the sound check, with masses flocking to the tent when the performance started.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:13 AM

Now, here is a suggestion that will make some people very angry,(I don't know why, but a thread on a similar subject generated near apoplexy).Given the way in which the folk tradition in Britain has been constructed, and given the purpose for which the Albert Hall was built, why not have the Folk Prom unamplified next year?
    Or, another suggestion: I have been working on projects in Manchester and Liverpool over the last few years involving very traditional songs and tunes with young urban rappers. Now, if this is good enough for the north, why not in the Folk Prom?(that would have to be amplified!). I mean, if we are going to have tricky arrangements and innovations, let's go a bit further than Balkan 17/16 rhythms.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:25 AM

Hmm .. nice idea, but knowing the acoustic problems in the Albert Hall, who'd hear any of it if they weren't in the immediate vicinity of the musicians ?? I wouldn't give much hope for anybody up in the gods.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

Surreysinger: that would depend, of course, on which musicians were chosen.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:31 AM

Oi Surrey.....
It's Benjie Britten,(always wondered where John K got the idea for his sons name!) not Percy Grainger!!!!

An acoustic folk prom? Well, nice idea, I agree that good old Albert was built before the invention of Marshall stacks, and for large orchestras the sound can be awesome. For one bloke with an acoustic guitar, you'd have to stay very, very quiet....

It's a big place. In an ideal world, you are right of course. I just don't think that a gig like last sundays would have worked without PA.
Bellowhead, acoustic? How would that work?!

I wasn't there sadly, but I hope the PA crew where sympathetic to the music....Can anyone who was enlighten me?

(Did hear a PA howl at one point on R3, but, it was quickly dealt with)

Ralphie Taking off Sound mans hat.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:40 AM

Oi back Ralphie ... you were the one that mentioned Joseph Taylor ... nothing to do with Benjie at all!!! Percy collected from him (as of course did Auntie Lucy) ... you were the one that brought Percy into the mix...

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:44 AM

Ralphie: like I said, it would depend on the acts. Bellowhead for example depend on amplification and sound mixing.As do many other acts(including my urban folk fusion suggestion). But there are plenty of kinds of folk music in Britain that do not depend on amplification for their sound, and I think it would be a lovely experiment to do that in the Albert Hall one year for a folk prom. But I don't think it likely that this would happen, because the programming of such events is in the hands of people with acts to promote, and these acts are not in general the people who could explore acoustic(literal meaning) performance.But wouldn't it be a nice change, for one day in the year, to do it the old way?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Actually, what I came back for was to post the link to the Times review, as follows

Times review

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Mr Gaddaffi (or should I call you Colonel?)

As you say, lost in the mists of time. I was certainly doing PA for the Cron/Tabor tour that year, as I have the tapes of the Nottingham gig to this day..(No UncleBoko/Bonzo9Yards or whatever you call yourself nowadays, you can't have a copy!)

Did I do the Bracknell gig? possibly, It's a long time ago.

But Yes, it was quite an experimental gig, but, with the musicians involved, it was always going to be so.

Good to know that you remember it after all these years!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:50 AM

Greg - having made the point before Ralphie did, that the ALbert Hall acoustics would mean that the sound wouldn't travel very far, I'm intrigued to know what sort of acoustic acts you envisage could fill the space. I've stood on the Albert Hall stage as part of a 200 strong choir (non-amplified) of course more than once, and know that its an astonishingly huge and scarey space to fill - even if you're singing with 199 other people. I just can't envisage any of the types of acts that I would be interested in hearing being audible over a very large range. Care to provide a few examples?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:52 AM

Greg.

Yes of course it would be a lovely idea. PA almost always turns Trad music into a RAWK gig. Nothing wrong with that, but, The Albert is bloody big, and you'd never get the idea past Roger Wright anyway!
Believe me, I'm not dissing the idea though. Just being practical!

And Irene.....OK....OK.....mutter....mutter
(Don't you just love pedants. Away with you...back to the Radio 3 threads where you belong..!)

R x

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Colonel will do, Ralphie. I think you were a Crow in those days. Pix probably did the sound desk (why am I telling you this trivia?)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

Colonel

Don't mention the "C" word.
You could be right....and what's wrong with trivia anyway?
Surely thread drift is the new black?

Regards R

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:04 AM

No good, I'm getting out of here, work to do and all that... but I'm hurt to think that I belong on the Radio 3 boards ... it's not nice over there (and I was only visiting)... sob...

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

"Maybe Holograms of Joseph Taylor too....."

okay, now we DEFINITELY need Jim Moray on board!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

Surreysinger: acts to fill the Albert Hall acoustically.Here are a few ideas. Well, I've been organising carnival marching bands in virtually all the northwest towns and cities for England for many decades, that's one area I would explore. Some forms of celebratory music obviously, Padstow type stuff. Dohl drummers and dancers from the Midlands. Community choirs. And, absolutely definitely, solo unaccompanied singers and instrumentalists or small groups who are up to it.It's amazing what you can do with a quiet audience yopu know. How do you think the Albert Hall worked in the first decades of its existence? I won't name a lot of names right now, it is an idea I would like to develop, in the Albert Hall or somewhere else. But, I don't believe the idea is really a goer in terms of the Folk Prom. There are vested interests who don't believe that this is the way for the BBC/Folk axis to move in.
Ralphie: who is the Roger Wright that you don't think would wear the idea? Some BBC big cheese?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM

DEFINITELY need Jim Moray on board!

Ha! Beat me to it! JM (if he gets a look in) would have animations of musicians dressed as furry animals and make it all sound like Radiohead.

The Joseph Taylor sampling is a bit old hat though as I can't count the number of times bits of Brigg Fair have shown up in all sorts of projects but what I rather liked was Billy Bragg's 50th birthday reminiscences at SBC where he had an old record player and plonked the needle down on ancient vinyl, sometimes at the right track.

The EFDSS had a Percy Grainger event a very long time ago (I think at the RAH though the Mermaid springs to mind). Quite nice, though no whisper of PG's alternative activities which might have drawn in a more curious audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:54 AM

Hi Greg
Firstly Roger is Boss of Radio 3!
(And apparently danced at the late night dance last sunday...would have loved to have seen that...! You tube anybody?)
Seriously, he is a very open minded guy, bringing Kershaw to R3, commissioning the coverage of Womad, and even brought me a sausage sandwhich when I was opening up R3 one morning!
A thoroughly nice and interesting bloke, not elitist at all.
As for your concert ideas, wonderful...(Won't happen of course)
As an example, In aother life I was tangentially involved,with the Camden School Prom, organised (amongst others) By Sheena Masson (Stocai, Stomp), who's day job is Music co-ordinator in Camden and other places.
Every 2 years there is a Camden Folk Prom.

Can you imagine the whole of the Arena and the Loggia filled by thousands of kids (Parents shoved off up into the Gods!)
And you had the lot...Orchestras, Choirs, Bhangra, Soloists, Dancing.

(An aside...there are at least 50 different languages spoken in Camden)
Maybe thats an idea that we could put to Mr Wright?
The three Camden Proms that I have attended have been magical. Talk about cross cultural!!
And, It would make great TV. These kids really go for it..
Mmmmm Let me think about it
Interesting stuff though, and nobody's fighting...Hurrah!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Jim Moray
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:06 AM

Um, sorry Ralph - I have already had a PRS foundation grant for exactly that (almost to the word)...

I have cleaned up the Joseph Taylor wax cylinders, manipulated them with Melodyne and orchestrated for a live orchestra. I'm pretty confident that I have the best sounding set of transfers of the recordings that exist at the moment to work from - its taken six months of work to get them to sound like that.

It was premiered last July at the RNCM in Manchester, but we are re-visiting it on a much larger scale (with films) next year. The plans are fairly far along, but if you want to get involved with the technical aspects then drop me a line.

And, no - no animals or sounding like Radiohead. The orchestration is more like Gavin Bryars work (listen to 'Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet' or 'The Sinking of the Titanic') crossed with English Acoustic Collective or Methera Quartet - type use of fragments of morris tunes etc. Its pretty minimal, with the voice being the main focus of the piece.

If anyone wants any more info then get in touch. I want to make an album of it first, but the aim is to do a short tour in Autumn 2009.

I'm paranoid that I'm being really predictable now..

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, that was a joke, Jim. The expanded project sounds fab.

I'm put in mind, however, of the aborted project to hold an "inside out" event with the emphasis on workshops, culminating in nightly concerts and ceilidhs. Others stepped in and when it very quickly emerged that what they wanted was a conventional "SoH/Lakeperson headline thing" where punters paid and watched and not a vestige of creative thought, I was out.

The way I see it, a "prom" sort of event is the way out of that stale way of thinking. And last weekend saw the progressive arm of the establishment getting behind it. Hurrah.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

Hey Doug, that sounds really good and am looking forward to see or hear the product now :D

I thought the RAH did a great job, it didn't sound too quiet or too loud in fact I was really impressed. It did kinda suit but tbh I would have been glad to hear all of it (including Monica Bacelli's rather interesting approach)

I loved Muzsikás, Bella Hardy, Folkestra and the orchestrated takes on a load of really familiar tunes.

But then I'm slightly mad and really enjoy hearing a load of drunk folk musicians at 2am performing in a session in a marquee in the middle of a field. Maybe a great setting for the next prom? lol

Maybe I'm easily please?!?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:10 AM

Robin Denselow in today's Grauniad takes an even more dismissive view than I do of the "stale but safe" concert format, especially with regard to the later Prom.
Yes, he's right but I was struggling to take the more conciliatory approach (that was HARD) of "you've got to start somewhere and this is the first step".

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:33 AM

Mr Moray
Great minds think in different ways!

Sorry to have pissed on your parade!
Didn't know that you had a project in tow...(Hal-An)
If I can be of any help. Just get in touch.
Would be delighted.


Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:41 AM

"And, no - no animals or sounding like Radiohead."
So there's till scope for that then?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:48 AM

I did - which is why everything you were saying was positively uncanny! Especially the mention of Joseph Taylor holograms...

Jim, what are you doing here? Aren't you supposed to be shopping for pipes and cardigans?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:24 AM

Hi Greg

Thanks for your further thoughts. The idea in theory sounds great, but in practice some of it I think would be a non-starter.

"absolutely definitely, solo unaccompanied singers and instrumentalists or small groups who are up to it.It's amazing what you can do with a quiet audience yopu know."

Firstly, get your quiet audience. From the experience of various theatre based promotions locally (in a small venue) a lot of people who come to concert based folk promotions tend to treat them as if they are at a folk club - ie leaping up mid song, trotting off to the bar, the loos,.. you name it, they'll go for it. A quiet audience is something you don't necessarily get.

" How do you think the Albert Hall worked in the first decades of its existence?"

I haven't checked it out, but I would have said it was designed for large orchestral concerts. Any singers working there would have received a classical training - ie would have been trained to produce their voices to be heard over a large concert orchestra. WHich means using a totally different type of voice from that which most (if not all) singers in our area would have. And even the classically trained singers would have had to work incredibly hard to be heard there, I reckon. It's also worth pointing out that the acoustic in the Hall has had quite a few modifications since those days, so is no longer to the original specs. The idea of using unaccompanied singers is great - however, I think its incredibly unlikely that anyone around these days could fill that space without some form of amplification.... it really is stunningly huge and stunningly high, and actually quite scarey to behold as a performer if the bums on seats are substantial. I performed to a virtually full Hall quite a few years ago, with my choir, as part of the semi-chorus, and had to launch into something with a handful of other singers. I can assure you that, even with the support of several other very competent and good classical singers, it was a very unnerving experience - quite a dead acoustic if I recall correctly (unlike the Festival Hall, which felt much more user friendly ... hey there's a thought... how about something at the South Bank Centre???) I've been to classical concerts at the RAH where the principal singer has been miked for that reason.

The whole idea is a great one - but the Albert Hall is not the space for it, I reckon.

"But, I don't believe the idea is really a goer in terms of the Folk Prom."
I fail to see why - after all we're just about to have the second Doctor Who prom ... although admittedly that's a goer for quite different reasons. The mix you suggest has got to be an interesting one - and probably visually a very stimulating one for TV purposes.

"There are vested interests who don't believe that this is the way for the BBC/Folk axis to move in."
That's an intriguing and provoking comment. Who are these vested interests ?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:27 AM

And I should have said, what is the BBC/Folk Axis ... are we going to war ??

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:51 AM

Surreysinger: what I meant by the BBC/Folk Axis is that there is are certain types of artist who get heavily promoted by the BBC, win BBC Awards, get chosen for the prestige events etc, and that these are not the types of artists who have developed styles which could fit in to the totally acoustic concert I was suggesting. I have nothing against artists who depend on sound mixing for their acts, a lot of what I do myself is precisely that. But, as Ralphie said re my idea: wonderful(won't happen, of course).
This is the real world. The thing about my idea is, the usual suspects wouldn't make any money out of it. So, regretfully, it will not happen.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

Aye he might be a barrel of laughs, but on the night I saw him he wasn't well for me funny, I have been to better funerals that where much more lively than what I saw, and as I said no one has mentioned one song that you can sing along to that Martin Simpson does, why can't you answer that?

maybe he does sing along chorus stuff, don't get me wrong I like other types of folk music, but just because I said I thought that he was boring, that is what I saw, and you think that I'm a war criminal and have committed the crime of the century by saying Martin Simpson well what I saw was boring.

I like groups like The Dubliners, The Corries and the Spinners, these were groups and groups and singers like them that brought folk music to the masses.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM

Goatfell,you seem to be talking to yourself ... everyone else has moved on well away from there, and you have already given your opinion, which you are of course entitled to. There is little point in continually harping on about the fact that you like chorus songs ... it's not going to change the content of the programme which is now two days ago !!!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:19 AM

Some of us find the Dubliners, the Corries and definitely the Spinners to be exceptionally boring, so much so that I'd rather listen to Bellowhead, and I'd much rather listen to Home Service than them. martin Simpson is a guitarist's performer, and we therefore take preference.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

You may have found all those groups boring - although they contained very fine musicians, singers and songwriters.

However none of them needed an arts council grant to play a folk festival, none of them had much trouble filling any concert hall in the country and the folk scene in those days didn't have that lingering smell of of a 'well in' coterie continually rubbishing everyone else and denying access to the media to everyone else.

Martin Simpson and Bellowhead don't need you to abuse other and earlier artists. i don't imagine they would appreciate it. And coming so soon after Cliff Hall's death - well we can do without it.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:23 PM

Back in the late 1960s in the year the Keele Festival moved to Loughborough, the EFDSS held a "town" ceilidh, away from the "gown" campus in a bid to involve the good burghers of Loughborough. Not many came and it was a bit of a disaster. The Spinners (for they were the interval spot) had nevertheless an uproarious time getting pissed with yours truly and making jokes on the lines of "why do the EFDSS always book us, don't they know any other bands?" They were well aware of the rest of what we might (if we must) call the "scene" resenting how they ALWAYS but ALWAYS got this sort of gig (and guess who the ceilidh band was? Yes, that's right, the Yetties. Obviously).

Both bands were pragmatic. A gig's a gig. Nice chaps, scratching a living. Things haven't changed much except that the living is harder and the musicianship infinitely better.

On the subject of singing along with Martin Simpson, I've heard him drowned out by a wall of sound during Sammy's Bar. Not nice. Not that I'm keen on the song particularly, but if I go to listen to Martin Simpson, that's who I want to hear.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:32 PM

Robin Denselow actually gave a pretty positive review of the day as a whole. He was absolutely right about the evening concert. There was a slight feeling of failure of imagination about it, in spite of the good things therein. Four stars overall ain't bad from The Guardian. We don't need sycophants, do we.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

Let's see, prom is probably short for promenade which means on your 2 feet, which some folks indeed were, so that surely meets all necessary criteria. On yer bike classic snobs!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:52 PM

With an apology for eavesdropping Ruth I thought Jim was gonna buy some equations... I think it were my dad they would have to have a large number of polynomials extremely quadratic and set as a simultanious problem where you have to find the x and y values via finding the values from the rest of the alphabet!!! You can tell how much I love my dad ;) lol

Am still reading the programme from Sunday :)

Surrey Singer, I liked your comments about the RAH. The only thing is I am sure the acoustics were totally different in the hall pre-amplification. The odd shaped upside down mushrooms were put in to deaden the reverberation from the pretty corregated ceiling in 1969 according to wikipedia, I love the addage in there that says "It used to be said that the hall was the only place where a British composer could be sure of hearing his work twice.". I couldn't imagine the resound in the original hall since chairs and other materials have been changed and added since.

Royal Albert Hall - Wikipedia
PDF research paper into the acoustics of RAH before and after restoration

I am sure there was a documentary of the analysis of the acoustics of the RAH but I can't seem to find it... I know quite a few great folk artist that could perform there without amplification :D

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:18 PM

Hi Houston

"The only thing is I am sure the acoustics were totally different in the hall pre-amplification"

I think that's more or less what I said, wasn't it ?? As I recall they had great hopes for the mushrooms ... but at the end of the day they didn't do the job as well as had been expected ,and the acoustics were still crap after all that work and effort (all that said before having a chance to check out the research paper for interest purposes.)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

I hate these 'GUEST' because I think that they are just cowards that don't have the nerve or the guts to give themselves a name, at lest when I put a post here you can what my mudcat name is.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

I totally agree with Joe Offer, either give yourself a name or sod off

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:43 PM

People may be interested to know that the discussion re this on the R3 Performance message board has become a lot more mature and interesting over the last few days. Some real food for thought there I think

Joe G

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:25 PM

"As I recall they had great hopes for the mushrooms ... but at the end of the day they didn't do the job as well as had been expected ,and the acoustics were still crap after all that work and effort"

I was in the minus years when the fiberglass mushrooms were added but with the knowledge of singing in lots of places where I want to hear the reverberation of my voice I could imagine that without them the resound would be horrendous.

The problem is that the hall is an oval shaped building with 2 bowls facing each other. The sound energy is bound to reflect and hit itself several times creating unwanted effects. Cast iron is not an acoustically sympathetic material as anyone with a bath would tell you, that said if the note is sympathetic to the cast iron shape it resonates beautifully (which isn't useful with lots of notes!)

I don't think volume is too much of an issue... if you were in the RAH on the Sunday afternoon or if you check out the recording you can hear a baby make a noise, surely a folk singer can sing higher than a baby?

That's enough of me chattin sh*te lol...

Am fascinated to find out what solution they are bound to come up with... it'll probably be a combination of sound deadening material and sound canceling technology combined with amplification (not very folkie but then the RAH wasn't designed for folk and folk was really designed for public houses and family homes.)

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:33 PM

I saw a folk festival in Keele in the mid 70's. I remember seeing Bill Caddick, Martn Wyndham Read, June Tabor and Bernard Wrigley. I'm sure it was after the date you mention as moving to Loughborough.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

> folk was really designed for public houses and family homes.)

Designer folk ? Now there's an idea..... LOL
BTW ... don't forget the workplace as well (not to mention the non-family homes)