Folk Proms

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

Well I personally had an amazing, brilliant time and Mr Roger Wright was dancing in the ceilidh and he told me afterwards he thought the whole day had been a real success - so the folkies have got the thumbs up from the controller of R3 and master of the Proms.

Many thanks to anyone who was there until the bitter end and joined in the dancing

Sarah

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Sorry for the blatant plug, but I'm putting on Bella in Southport in December if anyone's interested.

And, with Martin Simpson doing Chris Wood's 'Come Down Jehovah' I thought I'd mention that I'm putting Chris Wood on in November too.

Sorry, but I thought if anyone was interested, they might want to know.

Cheers,
Richard.
(07841 842137 for details)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:54 PM

Not as good as a folk club though - or a small festival. you gotta face it, the BBC are a long way adrift from us lot. they're sort of on another planet.......Those concerts with Kate Rusby were a bit of a dog's breakfast as well.

the best thing on dvd I've seen recently is Guitar Maestros series - theres real intimacy in that series. That video of SOH's gig at the Albert Hall wasn't bad either - it was quite matey.

This thing of just taking a video camera , or even a film team to a gig - well it doesn't really work, does it?.. I can't really explain why. I think we neeed more skilled film makers to capture what folkmusicicians actually do.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

Quite right Al.

I seem to remember Mike Harding doing a series including some Applachian fiddlers 25 years or so ago, that was small and intimate too.

The series of Tony Capstick at Buxton Opera House was inexecrable - but being a no household telly I don't get to see much anway.

(We had a small Bellowhead party last night - bottle or two of wine and a a lot of a bottle of Bushmills. Shame there were only two of us).

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

Filming big folk concerts is crap: discuss!
Is this the way to present folk music (which is special and totally different): as if it was just the same? This is a question that is raised in a lot of posts on this thread, explicitly and implicitly. Interesting, perhaps? Is the Albert Hall or the Cambridge Folk Festival, or whatever, the yardstick by which to judge music which is meant to be seriously culturally embedded?
   On the Radio 3 discussion thread, where a few hardline classicists have queried what folk is doing in the Proms at all, we have seen the decision being defended by folkies pointing out that half of Bellowhead have got degrees in Folkology at the University of Folkiness or Whatever, as if that was a Good Thing.Is that the solution, or is that part of the problem? Is this kind of "arranged folk" in "high places" really the direction that folk music is going to go? And if so, do we all want to follow?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM

Not exactly true Greg. Speaking for myself who detailed some of the qualifications that you don't actually mention, I know I was replying to the suggestion from a classicist that those appearing were little better than buskers who knew three chords.

And that's why qualifications came up. In order to educate the classicists. (Between you and me I listed three - the only three I knew!!)

Not that I have any problem with people doing degrees in whatever they want.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

Its certainly one debate you could take from this, Greg. But what you're saying is controversial. I think it would be more helpful if we could explain to the BBC where they were continually going wrong. One or two decent folk programmes shouldn't be beyond the powers of the BBC.

My point would be be - why don't the BBC get a team together who know what they're doing. The Kate Rusby concerts - you couldn't really fault the musicianship. but the filming made it hard to enjoy.

If you can capture every nuance, grimace and naughty word when Gordon ramsey is racing round a kitchen - why is it so hard to capture what six blokes do on a stage - not running round at all.

perhaps some folk acts just make good television and some don't. I always liked the few occasions when derek brimstone got a break in front of the camera. Once in a pub at Sidmouth for a couple of songs, and one song on The Fivepenny Piece Show - not much for a forty five year career.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:17 AM

"Is this kind of "arranged folk" in "high places" really the direction that folk music is going to go? And if so, do we all want to follow?"

Hmmm...I've been contemplating this lately from another angle. The afternoon Prom should have at least educated the claccisists about just how much composers such as RVW and Percy Grainger "borrowed" from folk music - one might even say "nicked wholesale". On the one hand, this brought the music to a wider audience - but at what price? Perhaps at the turn of the 20th century folk music was perceived to receive some legitimisation and credibility by being arranged and presented orchestrally. If you look at the responses on the BBC 3 website this is definitely the perception. On its own, folk is apparently a few inept musicians playing 3 chords and ghastly caterwauling (to borrow a phrase) - but arrange it orchestrally and it becomes "proper" music.

It's interesting, because I think this comes back to some discussions we had in the thread discussing Eliza Carthy's article on the Proms for the Guardian. Some people who enjoy both folk and classical music were concerned that others (including me) were setting ourselves up in opposition to classical music. The truth is, classical music is already set up in opposition to many other music forms - there is an innate sense of its superiority to all other musics within the ranks of many classical fans, and the "high culture" bias of the funding system in the UK means that it'sfunded out of all proportion to its audiences.

Personally, I don't think you need to mess about with folk music to legitimise it. This is quite different from messing about with folk music because it's interesting, or fun (like Bellowhead's arrangements, for instance). But, as an example, I'm not sure how hearing Grainger's "Shepherd's Hey" arranged orchestrally really edified me. More to the point, I couldn't really understand why he'd done it. To make it acceptable to a certain type of audience with quite narrow musical horizons? Looking at the responses to the folk Prom on the BBC board (along the lines of "I like this music when it's arranged and played properly, but not in its raw, peasant form"), I can't help feeling that by begging from the scraps off the classical table, both artistically and financially, we're doing traditional music a great disservice.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:29 AM

Indeed. In the Vaughan Williams documentary there was a shot of a chamber group playing Dives & Lazarus. The caption said RVW: First performed 1920. Really? Now if it had been session musicians playing Star Of The County Down or someone in an Irish pub singing Dominic Behan's Crooked Jack lyrics, that would be "raw and peasant", I suppose . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:43 AM

Dives and Lazarus made me really angry the first time I heard it. I actually cried. (Admittedly, some wine may have been taken at the time...)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:24 AM

Whaddya mean "lighten up" - that IS me being positive

Bella Hardy - better than her CD, and better than Ely

Martin Simpson - better than Ely and awesome

"top quality show (that could have been better still)"



What do I need to do to show approval, gush like Mad Lizzie?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

but no one has mentioned that he sings songs that you can join in with, I mean you can't join in with an introduction can you? but if I did go and see him live, which he was on the Proms on BBC 4 I feel as if I'm being bullied by the Martin Simpson fan club, I just like songs that you can join in with I mean it that a crime, maybe that's why Martin Simpson hasn't played up here in Scotland, and if he did I would go and see him and then tell what I think, but what I saw on Television was a bit boring, maybe he does songs that you can join in with, mind you there some groups/singers that are like that where you can't join in with them, even if they are good.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

Just read the review in today's (Tuesday's) Times. The reviewer (Geoff Brown) approaches his topic from the point of view of 'Serious Music' looking in - Radio Three vs. The World.

And yes, the RAH acoustics are notorious if you wish to analyse any performer's diction. I had the same problem listening to the Watersons in concert there a year ago.

The only thing he said I can agree with, is that Folk Day was something of a missed opportunity for lover of Serious Music and Folk/Traditional Music alike, for completely different reasons.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

Mmmm indeed The Sainted Ms Archer makes a good point.
Particularly liked the "Knicked wholesale" bit!

How about this for an idea. Why not take Benjamin Brittens Piano arrangements of Folk song. and replace the God Awful Peter Pears with some of the best of the revival singers, or indeed, with a bit of computer wizadry (pitch shifting, etc) use the old field recordings if they still exist.

(Memo to self, must apply for my Arts Council grant!!)

Not sure how it would sound, but it I would contend, that the "Folk" community would listen with an enquiring mind, and like it or not, would at the very least find it an interesting concept, look at the imagined Village project for example.

I have a sneaky feeling that the Classical Johnnies, would turn it down flat, probably without giving it a listen, as "Not Proper at all".

It just occurs to me that the introspective naval gazing about "What is Folk" that happens here and in other forums, is absolutely a slight breeze compared to the hurricane of horror from the classical wallies, when anybody dares to tinker with their "Posh" music.

I mean look at the opprobrium heaped on Nigel Kennedy. I think he was snubbed by the Proms for something like 20 years, only getting back to the Albert this year.

Why did they let him back? Because 1, he's a bloody good fiddler and 2. He puts bums on seats.

Just a few ramblings, what do you lot think?

Have a Sunny day Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:15 AM

People do join in with martin simpson - but n a very muted sort of way. I wonder if that's why Bert jansch left Scotland - were people saying sod all that needle of death stuff Bert, lets have the wild rover!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:25 AM

I can help with the grant app, Ralphie...:)

To be fair, there are narrow-minded folk audiences as well - it can be challenging to programme the kind of music you suggest as a stand-alone concert, as the ticket takeup can be rather indifferent - those events work as part of a festival, though, where people are already there and they think, "What the hell - I'll go in and listen for a bit. I can always nip out if I don't like it."

Jim Moray has been experimenting woth the kinds of crossovers you describe and I think it's really exciting.

I think the big difference for me is that folk audiences don't generally assume that their music is superior to other forms.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:33 AM

Times - "Where are the words"

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:37 AM

Whilst I couldn't go along with the description of Martin Simspon as an evening of side splitting merriment, you've got to admit he's a barrel of laughs compared to Bert.

goatfell you summon up visions of audiences in kilts swaying in time to the whisky and singing, An' wi you, and with you, and with you me Johnny lad.....

Its not really like that where you live, is it?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:54 AM

Ruthie.

I was thinking rather more of a recording project than a live show.
Mind you, A night at the Barbican with all the artists dressed to the nines.....sounds like fun!
Would have to a good Pianist....Huw Warren perhaps? He plays in all sorts of musical genres, and a very fine accompanist as his work with June Tabor and others, proves.

For the source singer bits, we could have a Wax Cylinder player on stage, and (Yes, of course, the vocal would have to played in from computer, or whatever), With someone pretending to crank the thing up.

And, we could make it a black tie event for the audience too. After all Folkies are notorious cross dressers. Well the men anyway, Mind you, it would be in keeping with Mr Brittens proclivities (Allegedly, he said quickly)

And, because it would look a bit sparse with only 2 people and a Bosendorfer on etage, we could have a complete visual backdrop.
Maybe Holograms of Joseph Taylor too.....


Nurse!.....The drugs have finally kicked in !!!!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:56 AM

Typo alert....I went all French for a moment there... For "etage" read "stage"
But you knew that....

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM

Like the sound of the Arts Council project ... that would be really interesting to hear... although sneakily I think I would rather listen to the original singers singing "au naturel".

However, if you're going to put up the idea of dressing a la composer, I wouldn't suggest putting up any of Percy Grainger's stuff (that rules out good old Joseph) - not unless you want to wear terry towelling that is ... and then how do you manage to portray Percy's proclivities (that sounds rather lascivious ... mind you , bearing in mind those proclivities, maybe that's appropriate!!)

As to the typo alert ... well shucks, I thought you were just taking it upmarket a bit. At least it was the correct word in French!!

Re the horrors of the Radio 3 Performance messageboard, I've sat down three or four times to compose a riposte to some of the awful garbage and tripe that is being poured forth, but in the end gave up, as it's patently clear that most of them are extremely blinkered, and I decided that there was no point. There are one or two sane posters on there, but they are very much in the minority. What most of them seem to have ignored is the fact that the Beeb's own "History of the Proms" page points out that the Proms were started to introduce a wide variety of music performed to a high standard to the general public - nowhere does it say that that was to be "classical" music. As someone who has performed and enjoyed classical music as a choral singer, alongside my major passion for traditional song, I find the blinkered compartmentalisation displayed very, very sad.

Maybe I'll go over there and post the quote from Carlos Santana ...
"All music is important if it comes from the heart"

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM

Funny enough, I was thinking Andrew Cronshaw in his less experimentative stage - whose projects included June Tabor, Ian Blake, Huw Warren, Ric Saunders and Martin Simpson as co-collaborators. I recall the wow factor kicking in at Bracknell far too long ago during the sound check, with masses flocking to the tent when the performance started.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:13 AM

Now, here is a suggestion that will make some people very angry,(I don't know why, but a thread on a similar subject generated near apoplexy).Given the way in which the folk tradition in Britain has been constructed, and given the purpose for which the Albert Hall was built, why not have the Folk Prom unamplified next year?
    Or, another suggestion: I have been working on projects in Manchester and Liverpool over the last few years involving very traditional songs and tunes with young urban rappers. Now, if this is good enough for the north, why not in the Folk Prom?(that would have to be amplified!). I mean, if we are going to have tricky arrangements and innovations, let's go a bit further than Balkan 17/16 rhythms.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:25 AM

Hmm .. nice idea, but knowing the acoustic problems in the Albert Hall, who'd hear any of it if they weren't in the immediate vicinity of the musicians ?? I wouldn't give much hope for anybody up in the gods.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

Surreysinger: that would depend, of course, on which musicians were chosen.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:31 AM

Oi Surrey.....
It's Benjie Britten,(always wondered where John K got the idea for his sons name!) not Percy Grainger!!!!

An acoustic folk prom? Well, nice idea, I agree that good old Albert was built before the invention of Marshall stacks, and for large orchestras the sound can be awesome. For one bloke with an acoustic guitar, you'd have to stay very, very quiet....

It's a big place. In an ideal world, you are right of course. I just don't think that a gig like last sundays would have worked without PA.
Bellowhead, acoustic? How would that work?!

I wasn't there sadly, but I hope the PA crew where sympathetic to the music....Can anyone who was enlighten me?

(Did hear a PA howl at one point on R3, but, it was quickly dealt with)

Ralphie Taking off Sound mans hat.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:40 AM

Oi back Ralphie ... you were the one that mentioned Joseph Taylor ... nothing to do with Benjie at all!!! Percy collected from him (as of course did Auntie Lucy) ... you were the one that brought Percy into the mix...

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:44 AM

Ralphie: like I said, it would depend on the acts. Bellowhead for example depend on amplification and sound mixing.As do many other acts(including my urban folk fusion suggestion). But there are plenty of kinds of folk music in Britain that do not depend on amplification for their sound, and I think it would be a lovely experiment to do that in the Albert Hall one year for a folk prom. But I don't think it likely that this would happen, because the programming of such events is in the hands of people with acts to promote, and these acts are not in general the people who could explore acoustic(literal meaning) performance.But wouldn't it be a nice change, for one day in the year, to do it the old way?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Actually, what I came back for was to post the link to the Times review, as follows

Times review

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Mr Gaddaffi (or should I call you Colonel?)

As you say, lost in the mists of time. I was certainly doing PA for the Cron/Tabor tour that year, as I have the tapes of the Nottingham gig to this day..(No UncleBoko/Bonzo9Yards or whatever you call yourself nowadays, you can't have a copy!)

Did I do the Bracknell gig? possibly, It's a long time ago.

But Yes, it was quite an experimental gig, but, with the musicians involved, it was always going to be so.

Good to know that you remember it after all these years!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:50 AM

Greg - having made the point before Ralphie did, that the ALbert Hall acoustics would mean that the sound wouldn't travel very far, I'm intrigued to know what sort of acoustic acts you envisage could fill the space. I've stood on the Albert Hall stage as part of a 200 strong choir (non-amplified) of course more than once, and know that its an astonishingly huge and scarey space to fill - even if you're singing with 199 other people. I just can't envisage any of the types of acts that I would be interested in hearing being audible over a very large range. Care to provide a few examples?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:52 AM

Greg.

Yes of course it would be a lovely idea. PA almost always turns Trad music into a RAWK gig. Nothing wrong with that, but, The Albert is bloody big, and you'd never get the idea past Roger Wright anyway!
Believe me, I'm not dissing the idea though. Just being practical!

And Irene.....OK....OK.....mutter....mutter
(Don't you just love pedants. Away with you...back to the Radio 3 threads where you belong..!)

R x

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Colonel will do, Ralphie. I think you were a Crow in those days. Pix probably did the sound desk (why am I telling you this trivia?)

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

Colonel

Don't mention the "C" word.
You could be right....and what's wrong with trivia anyway?
Surely thread drift is the new black?

Regards R

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:04 AM

No good, I'm getting out of here, work to do and all that... but I'm hurt to think that I belong on the Radio 3 boards ... it's not nice over there (and I was only visiting)... sob...

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

"Maybe Holograms of Joseph Taylor too....."

okay, now we DEFINITELY need Jim Moray on board!

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

Surreysinger: acts to fill the Albert Hall acoustically.Here are a few ideas. Well, I've been organising carnival marching bands in virtually all the northwest towns and cities for England for many decades, that's one area I would explore. Some forms of celebratory music obviously, Padstow type stuff. Dohl drummers and dancers from the Midlands. Community choirs. And, absolutely definitely, solo unaccompanied singers and instrumentalists or small groups who are up to it.It's amazing what you can do with a quiet audience yopu know. How do you think the Albert Hall worked in the first decades of its existence? I won't name a lot of names right now, it is an idea I would like to develop, in the Albert Hall or somewhere else. But, I don't believe the idea is really a goer in terms of the Folk Prom. There are vested interests who don't believe that this is the way for the BBC/Folk axis to move in.
Ralphie: who is the Roger Wright that you don't think would wear the idea? Some BBC big cheese?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM

DEFINITELY need Jim Moray on board!

Ha! Beat me to it! JM (if he gets a look in) would have animations of musicians dressed as furry animals and make it all sound like Radiohead.

The Joseph Taylor sampling is a bit old hat though as I can't count the number of times bits of Brigg Fair have shown up in all sorts of projects but what I rather liked was Billy Bragg's 50th birthday reminiscences at SBC where he had an old record player and plonked the needle down on ancient vinyl, sometimes at the right track.

The EFDSS had a Percy Grainger event a very long time ago (I think at the RAH though the Mermaid springs to mind). Quite nice, though no whisper of PG's alternative activities which might have drawn in a more curious audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:54 AM

Hi Greg
Firstly Roger is Boss of Radio 3!
(And apparently danced at the late night dance last sunday...would have loved to have seen that...! You tube anybody?)
Seriously, he is a very open minded guy, bringing Kershaw to R3, commissioning the coverage of Womad, and even brought me a sausage sandwhich when I was opening up R3 one morning!
A thoroughly nice and interesting bloke, not elitist at all.
As for your concert ideas, wonderful...(Won't happen of course)
As an example, In aother life I was tangentially involved,with the Camden School Prom, organised (amongst others) By Sheena Masson (Stocai, Stomp), who's day job is Music co-ordinator in Camden and other places.
Every 2 years there is a Camden Folk Prom.

Can you imagine the whole of the Arena and the Loggia filled by thousands of kids (Parents shoved off up into the Gods!)
And you had the lot...Orchestras, Choirs, Bhangra, Soloists, Dancing.

(An aside...there are at least 50 different languages spoken in Camden)
Maybe thats an idea that we could put to Mr Wright?
The three Camden Proms that I have attended have been magical. Talk about cross cultural!!
And, It would make great TV. These kids really go for it..
Mmmmm Let me think about it
Interesting stuff though, and nobody's fighting...Hurrah!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Jim Moray
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:06 AM

Um, sorry Ralph - I have already had a PRS foundation grant for exactly that (almost to the word)...

I have cleaned up the Joseph Taylor wax cylinders, manipulated them with Melodyne and orchestrated for a live orchestra. I'm pretty confident that I have the best sounding set of transfers of the recordings that exist at the moment to work from - its taken six months of work to get them to sound like that.

It was premiered last July at the RNCM in Manchester, but we are re-visiting it on a much larger scale (with films) next year. The plans are fairly far along, but if you want to get involved with the technical aspects then drop me a line.

And, no - no animals or sounding like Radiohead. The orchestration is more like Gavin Bryars work (listen to 'Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet' or 'The Sinking of the Titanic') crossed with English Acoustic Collective or Methera Quartet - type use of fragments of morris tunes etc. Its pretty minimal, with the voice being the main focus of the piece.

If anyone wants any more info then get in touch. I want to make an album of it first, but the aim is to do a short tour in Autumn 2009.

I'm paranoid that I'm being really predictable now..

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, that was a joke, Jim. The expanded project sounds fab.

I'm put in mind, however, of the aborted project to hold an "inside out" event with the emphasis on workshops, culminating in nightly concerts and ceilidhs. Others stepped in and when it very quickly emerged that what they wanted was a conventional "SoH/Lakeperson headline thing" where punters paid and watched and not a vestige of creative thought, I was out.

The way I see it, a "prom" sort of event is the way out of that stale way of thinking. And last weekend saw the progressive arm of the establishment getting behind it. Hurrah.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

Hey Doug, that sounds really good and am looking forward to see or hear the product now :D

I thought the RAH did a great job, it didn't sound too quiet or too loud in fact I was really impressed. It did kinda suit but tbh I would have been glad to hear all of it (including Monica Bacelli's rather interesting approach)

I loved Muzsikás, Bella Hardy, Folkestra and the orchestrated takes on a load of really familiar tunes.

But then I'm slightly mad and really enjoy hearing a load of drunk folk musicians at 2am performing in a session in a marquee in the middle of a field. Maybe a great setting for the next prom? lol

Maybe I'm easily please?!?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:10 AM

Robin Denselow in today's Grauniad takes an even more dismissive view than I do of the "stale but safe" concert format, especially with regard to the later Prom.
Yes, he's right but I was struggling to take the more conciliatory approach (that was HARD) of "you've got to start somewhere and this is the first step".

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:33 AM

Mr Moray
Great minds think in different ways!

Sorry to have pissed on your parade!
Didn't know that you had a project in tow...(Hal-An)
If I can be of any help. Just get in touch.
Would be delighted.


Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:41 AM

"And, no - no animals or sounding like Radiohead."
So there's till scope for that then?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:48 AM

I did - which is why everything you were saying was positively uncanny! Especially the mention of Joseph Taylor holograms...

Jim, what are you doing here? Aren't you supposed to be shopping for pipes and cardigans?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:24 AM

Hi Greg

Thanks for your further thoughts. The idea in theory sounds great, but in practice some of it I think would be a non-starter.

"absolutely definitely, solo unaccompanied singers and instrumentalists or small groups who are up to it.It's amazing what you can do with a quiet audience yopu know."

Firstly, get your quiet audience. From the experience of various theatre based promotions locally (in a small venue) a lot of people who come to concert based folk promotions tend to treat them as if they are at a folk club - ie leaping up mid song, trotting off to the bar, the loos,.. you name it, they'll go for it. A quiet audience is something you don't necessarily get.

" How do you think the Albert Hall worked in the first decades of its existence?"

I haven't checked it out, but I would have said it was designed for large orchestral concerts. Any singers working there would have received a classical training - ie would have been trained to produce their voices to be heard over a large concert orchestra. WHich means using a totally different type of voice from that which most (if not all) singers in our area would have. And even the classically trained singers would have had to work incredibly hard to be heard there, I reckon. It's also worth pointing out that the acoustic in the Hall has had quite a few modifications since those days, so is no longer to the original specs. The idea of using unaccompanied singers is great - however, I think its incredibly unlikely that anyone around these days could fill that space without some form of amplification.... it really is stunningly huge and stunningly high, and actually quite scarey to behold as a performer if the bums on seats are substantial. I performed to a virtually full Hall quite a few years ago, with my choir, as part of the semi-chorus, and had to launch into something with a handful of other singers. I can assure you that, even with the support of several other very competent and good classical singers, it was a very unnerving experience - quite a dead acoustic if I recall correctly (unlike the Festival Hall, which felt much more user friendly ... hey there's a thought... how about something at the South Bank Centre???) I've been to classical concerts at the RAH where the principal singer has been miked for that reason.

The whole idea is a great one - but the Albert Hall is not the space for it, I reckon.

"But, I don't believe the idea is really a goer in terms of the Folk Prom."
I fail to see why - after all we're just about to have the second Doctor Who prom ... although admittedly that's a goer for quite different reasons. The mix you suggest has got to be an interesting one - and probably visually a very stimulating one for TV purposes.

"There are vested interests who don't believe that this is the way for the BBC/Folk axis to move in."
That's an intriguing and provoking comment. Who are these vested interests ?

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:27 AM

And I should have said, what is the BBC/Folk Axis ... are we going to war ??

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:51 AM

Surreysinger: what I meant by the BBC/Folk Axis is that there is are certain types of artist who get heavily promoted by the BBC, win BBC Awards, get chosen for the prestige events etc, and that these are not the types of artists who have developed styles which could fit in to the totally acoustic concert I was suggesting. I have nothing against artists who depend on sound mixing for their acts, a lot of what I do myself is precisely that. But, as Ralphie said re my idea: wonderful(won't happen, of course).
This is the real world. The thing about my idea is, the usual suspects wouldn't make any money out of it. So, regretfully, it will not happen.

Subject: RE: Folk Proms
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

Aye he might be a barrel of laughs, but on the night I saw him he wasn't well for me funny, I have been to better funerals that where much more lively than what I saw, and as I said no one has mentioned one song that you can sing along to that Martin Simpson does, why can't you answer that?

maybe he does sing along chorus stuff, don't get me wrong I like other types of folk music, but just because I said I thought that he was boring, that is what I saw, and you think that I'm a war criminal and have committed the crime of the century by saying Martin Simpson well what I saw was boring.

I like groups like The Dubliners, The Corries and the Spinners, these were groups and groups and singers like them that brought folk music to the masses.