BS: Is America ready ??

Subject: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:23 PM

I'm not trying to be controversial or stir up ill feeling.

I am just viewing events from the UK and wondering, in view of past hostilities, if America is really ready for a black president.

Are the moderates really ready to fully support such an appointment?

What attitudes will Obama have to overcome in order to be successful?

Rational comments would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

Yes - finally

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

Not my place, but, I would say the US is ready for a good president. Here, Canucks are ready for a good PM. At least one that doesn't suck up to bad US presidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

"I'm not trying to be controversial or stir up ill feeling." - Ahh, but what the hell, go for it!

Anyone answering for America is just blowing smoke, but I'll answer for myself. But first, Obama has not nor will not be 'appointed' President or even the Dem. nominee. If he is successful, be will be elected President.

By successful do you mean to get elected? or to conduct a Presidency?
For me he would have to become a lot less liberal ands a whole lot more conservative. That he is Black (actually half white) is of no nevermind to me.   That he is left of liberal is a deal breaker for me. Beyond that I don't care about what was, only about what will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: mg
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

Of course we are ready. We were just holding out for someone other than Al Sharpton. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

More accurate to ask if it is ready for a mixed race president and I would say yes! Like my twin grandsons he is a "Zebra" child (it's what their Antiguan dad calls them!) and I would love for them to have that role model...they say we are heading more and more towards mixed race majority anyway...what better start than at the top?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Race? Are you implying that he's not a human?

Is the UK ready for a PM of African or Indian descent?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:08 PM

The question is essentially a red herring. Obama is not black.

Actually, it is possible there will be a white supremacist backlash in the hustings between now and November and I think it should be the target of a massive PR campaign to shove that sewage back down the throat of anyone who raises it as an issue. No presidential candidate has ever been question on the grounds that he has too much l-tryptophane, or oxytocin, or left-handed DNA in his physical system before; why should one be challenged on the grounds of having a tad more melanin? The absurdity of the issue is flagrant and obvious.

I think a good PR campaign could be done that would put the race issue on the same level of public esteem as someone complaining because the candidate is "actually from Arcturus and is in disguise, an agent for the Galactic Central Intelligence office". It is too absurd to be thought on.

As for AMerica, that depends on what you mean by the word America; I can guarantee you a huge proportion of Americans are not only ready but willing and fired up to see Obama win this race.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM

This was a mean-spirited little thread you started, nutty.

Rational comments would be appreciated.

Then start a reasonable discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

I would think that the same people who wouldn't vote for Obama because he's black wouldn't vote for any liberal anyway. So no loss of votes there. I'll go out on a limb but I'm guessing the vast majority of bigots vote Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM

Lets just say that I believe the vast majority of people who wouldn't vote for Obama probably never intended to vote for a Democrat in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

As I said originally, I was not intending to cause offence but listening and watching media coverage here in the UK it would seem that colour could be an issue. I was merely trying to get comments from the man in the street (so to speak).

So sorry the thread upset you SRS, but I was not wanting a discussion but a variety of personal opinions so that I could be more informed about what was happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

I can't speak for America, but I would be very surprised if the UK was ready for a black or asian or far eastern or mixed race prime minister, even if we were the first country to have two queens at the same time (NB, this is a joke, and it was first told to me by a gay friend and it does not imply that I am homophobic: in fact I get quite annoyed about homophobia. Thought I'd better say that in the light of remarks about me on other threads).

Is America yet ready for a president who is not guided by irrational religious beliefs? I know we had a prime minister recently who was just as bad, and in the light of the shadow he has cast on the practice of religion I think we now are ready for one who does not believe in Godly guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:55 PM

I don't see this question as mean-spirited. I know a number of folks (some of them fairly well educated) who are NOT ready for a non-100%-white chief executive.

As for the country as a whole? I don't know. If Obama gets elected, then we'll be able to assume that "most" or at least "many" citizens have been ready all along. (Keep in mind that most folks don't vote, although this coming election may bring greater numbers out of the woodwork than ever before.)

There is definitely a small, but loud and dangerous, racist minority among the US population. They'll be among us no matter who wins the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

" I'll go out on a limb but I'm guessing the vast majority of bigots vote Republican"

What an asinine statement. All the sincere Christians I know are Republicans and work to help all people get along with each other. The Southern bigots of days gone by were definitely Democrats, including KKK members Robert Bird and Fritz Hollings. What saved the South was a coalition of social conservatives, Christians and Republicans. Please try re-writing history without injecting your own haterd.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

One thing that bothers me about some, but an unknown number, of Obamaniacs is a suggestion that they want to vote for him because he is black. An attitude like that does not make me think America is "ready" or "progressing."

It takes all kinds, of course, so if that is a small percentage of people I don't mind at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:13 PM

There is no one single generalization about American's attitudes toward a black president, a woman president, a Jewish president, etc...

Some folks are fine with anyone who is has the skills and vision to do a good job wiule others would rather have a lousy president just so long as he/she weren't ____________ (Fill in the blanks)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

IMNSHO, this election will be run on the basis of relative qualifications and positions on the issues. Various groups claiming to be on Senator McCain's side will certainly raise the race issue on his behalf, either directly or (more likely) obliquely, and I wish I was sure that he will slap them down as quickly and firmly as they deserve. However, it will not be the focus of the election. I think that we have matured enough as a nation and as individuals to vote for the man and not for the melanin.

BTW, I find it interesting that some here call Senator Obama left of liberal and some call him right-wing. Does that mean that he is really a moderate?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

I am not "upset," as you suggest, nutty, I am disappointed. When you start a thread with the first line being "I'm not trying to start X" you can be pretty sure that that is exactly what you'll get. Characterizing a voice that questions your imprudent choice of wording as "upset" is disingenuous.

Rational comments would be appreciated suggests that you can tell the difference. I think not.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

Everybody is prejudiced. It just depends on when and toward whom.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM

I'm not prejudiced. My deep irrational hatreds are built on foundation of solid research.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM

Careful that limb doesn't break and knock some sense into your hateful head.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

sorry SRS but I think that you and I are not reading from the same hymn sheet. I was being entirely genuine with my comments whereas reading yours I would suggest that they are not entirely rational

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM

And lets not forget that the reason the south became predominantly Republican is because the Republicans refused to support the civil rights movement and the Democrats did which lead to the total reversal of political parties!

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

You'll never catch me reading from a hymn sheet. Talk about blinders right there--and a major reason for the problems in the American South, where I live, but I am not from.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:53 PM

Sorry Chief Chaos but that is also pure crap. The Southern bigots faded away into history. In their place are good people. Perhaps that explains why Atlanta and Houston are the most friendly big cities in the US for Blacks and not Chicago or Boston.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM

Been all over the South and I've met a lot of good people but the truth is the truth, like it or not. I've also met many racists far north, east, and far west of the Mason Dixon line. This isn't about southerners in general, I happen to be one. And I wasn't trying to slander any southerners or Republicans. However, you just don't find that many KKK members who are registered Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:15 PM

The first two Civil Rights Acts of the 20th century occurred during the Republican Eisenhower Administration. The 1957 act was not as strong as it might have been, because several provisions were excised or diluted by Southern Democrats. Also, it was Eisenhower who sent National Guard troops to enforce school desegregation in Little Rock. Nice attempt revisionism Chief Chaos, but no seegar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

I believe the majority of US citizens, and even most Democrats, are not ready to put into office a president who is not 100% white. Obama needs to take extreme care choosing his running mate to appeal to those who did not vote for him, and it should NOT be HRC.

Is Obama conservative? moderate? progressive? Who knows?? He makes great speeches, but there's no telling what he would actually do if elected.

John McCain must be prevented from winning the White House. After all, he, not W, was the original choice of those dangerous neocon nut cases who came up with the Project for the New American Century. IMO, Obama has but a slim chance of achieving this.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

I also cannot speak for America, but I personally am ready for someone who won't blatantly lie to the American public, won't refuse to negotiate with foreign leaders because their interests happen to be at odds with our own, won't support the rape of our national resources for the benefit of huge corporations, doesn't believe that the way to fight a "war" against an ideology is with guns and bombs as if that ideology were a nation-state instead of an idea, keeps his personal religious beliefs to himself and doesn't believe his decisions are guided by some supernatural being, and, while we're at it, doesn't pork interns. I don't give a shit if the person who meets these qualifications is black, white, red, green, male, female, hermaphrodite, or a sentient rock, as long as he she or it is a natural-born US citizen at least 35 years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:45 PM

"I personally am ready for someone who won't blatantly lie to the American public" ~ Bill Clinton?

"refuse to negotiate with foreign leaders because their interests happen to be at odds with our own" ~ Lyndon Johnson?

"keeps his personal religious beliefs to himself and doesn't believe his decisions are guided by some supernatural being" ~ Jimmy Carter?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:48 PM

pdq, that is penny ante stuff compared to Bush, and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Are Clinton, Johnson and Carter running? Funny, but I thought the first was ineligible, the second dead and the third not interested. Or did that comment have some meaning I'm missing?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

...Senator Obama left of liberal and some call him right-wing.

No inconsistancy there. What is referred to as "left of liberal" in the context of American politics would be seen as distinctly right of centre in most democratic countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:57 PM

BWL, what's your problem with sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:59 PM

All this discussion about what percentage black or white he is is irrelevant.

No humanbeing has the same skin colour as any other human being.

When my daughter asks about these issues I put her hand next to mine and show that our skins are different.

I then tell her tha everyone is different and unique and special and that is what make life special.

But in political terms, if you ask any black or dual heritage american what their ethnic classification is, they will identify with each other as being black.

In terms of the old political structures, Obama would have been described a coloured man. No one would have given a damn whether he had a white grandmother or a chinese nanny.

Which toilets would he have had to use?

Where would he have had to sit on the bus?

You know the answers and you therefore know that arguing about the exact hue of his particular genetic strain is a red herring.

And it may have had a pink grandmother for all I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:15 PM

Okay, I'm not trying to revise history here and I'm not trying to insult or upset anyone. The Republicans under Eisenhower did indeed make great strides in the Civil Rights movement. It wasn't until Barry Goldwater opposed a civil rights bill (because he felt that it was an expansion of Gov't power and would be too intrusive) that they held the forefront of the movement.

(Happy with that?)

The Republicans lost the black vote to the Democrats soon after that and the south which had been Democrat territory soon became Republican.

This seems to be the synopsis of what occurred according to quick research conducted through Republican sources on the net.

Again though, from my own personal point of view, I think that the people who wouldn't vote for Obama, because of the color of his skin, were ever going to vote for a Democrat anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:35 PM

Well, Chief, I know five Democrats who did not vote for Obama in the primaries, two of whom intimated it was because of color, and said if he
became the nominee they would not vote for President. Are my acquaintances telling me the truth? I don't know. But if that's fine with me if they don't vote the Democrat.

By contrast, many more of my friends are Republicans, and only one said she wouldn't vote for a Black candidate, even it Republican. I believe that Republicans are way better for minorities integrating into American life than Dems...especially those who promote "identity politics."

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:10 PM

Well, here's a bald statement for nutty:

Yer damn right America is ready. America IS ready. Let it be written, and let it be done.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:41 PM

You ain't asking the real tough $64,000 question here, nutty, the one that people are afraid to ask out loud...and that is:

Is America ready to have a chimp as president and commander-in-chief?

My advisors say "YES!"

My constituents say "YES!"

My gut says "HELL, YES!!!"

Hell, yes! Get ready for some REAL changes in Washington this time around. Vote APP all the way. We will rattle the branches in Washington, buddy, and some ripe mangos and coconuts are gonna fall!

Subject: Lyr Add: KILLED BY A COCONUT (Shel Silverstein)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:51 PM

KILLED BY A COCONUT" ~ Shel Silverstein

He just had a stress test, and he was fine
His cholesterol level was down to 209.
He saved up his money, retired to the tropic sea
There he was resting contentedly underneath a tall palm tree

When he was... killed by a coconut
Killed by a coconut
Just when things were lookin' up...
He happened to be lookin' down.

Yeah, he was... killed by a coconut (and you could be)
Killed by a coconut (that's why you never should be)
Sittin' underneath a coconut tree
When the coconut come down.

After five years of beggin' and pleadin'
She finally said yes.
They slipped into his apartment,
She slipped out of her dress.
He lit up some incense, and unplugged the phone
And was just about to enter the twilight zone

When he was... killed by a coconut (oh, what a feeling)
Killed by a coconut (it came through the ceiling)
The people upstairs were havin' a luau
And one fell through the floor.
And you'll be killed by a coconut (if you ain't protected)
Killed by a coconut (they come unexpected)
So never be lyin' in bed at night with the one that you adore.

He got the promotion, he felt great.
He took everybody in the office out to celebrate.
He ordered up pina coladas all around,
And they made a toast, he drank it down and made a gasping sound.

And he was... killed by a coconut (a great big cold one)
Killed by a coconut (he swallowed a whole one)
The young bartender was just out of school
And put the whole damn coconut in

He was... killed by a coconut (it ain't no joke)
You could be killed by a coconut (gasp and choke)
So never be drinkin' in a bar at night
Surrounded by all of your friends

He came back from Vietnam without even a scar (guy was a hero)
Started drivin' them demolition derby cars
He joined the police force
Survived a shoot out or two (uh oh, I think I see what's comin')
Now he was healthily joggin' down the avenue

When he was...
Killed by a pineapple (they were out of coconuts)
Killed by a pineapple (felt just like a coconut)
The A&P truck hit a telephone pole and fruit went flyin' everywhere
So, if there's plans you got (big, big plans you got)
Just make sure you're not just not (just make sure you're not)
Joggin' down the road on a sunny afternoon
'Cause coconuts are lurkin' out there

And you'll be...
Killed by a coconut (what a way to die now)
Killed by a coconut (everybody cry now)
Fate has a way of makin' you pay for all wrongs you do
And all the plans you got (all the plans you got)
Ain't gonna mean a lot (ain't gonna mean a lot)
When you meet up with the coconut
That's out there waitin' for you

Yeah, the plans you got - will not mean a lot
When you take a shot - that don't feel so hot
And ready or not, you come to the spot
Your coconut's waitin' for you.
(Somewhere there's a tropical fruit with your name on it)

Subject: Lyr Add: JUNGLE TO THE ZOO (Shel Silverstein)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:05 PM

JUNGLE TO THE ZOO ~ Shel Silverstein

The tiger he looked out of his cage and smiled.
He said, "Come here, boy, I want to talk to you a while".
He said, "I once was runnin' wild and free just the same as you.
But it's one step from the jungle to the zoo".

It's one step from the jungle to the zoo.
You'd better watch out
Or they're gonna get you too .
They clip your claws, cut your hair
Make a pussy cat out of you.
It's one step from the jungle to the zoo.

He said, "Son, when you go runnin' through the grass,
You'd better look out for all the hidden traps.
They'll feed you sweets and goodies
Til you're too fat to move
Then it's one step from the jungle to the zoo".

It's one step from the jungle to the zoo.
You'd better watch out
Or they're gonna get you, too.
They clip your claws, yank your fangs,
Make a pussy cat out of you.
It's one step from the jungle to the zoo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:27 PM

Man, that Shel Silverstein guy was a frikkin' genius! Really smart for a human, I'd hafta say. I wish we could get him on as a speechwriter for the APP. He had his finger on the pulse of life, that guy.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:32 PM

Your alter ego put Bob Dylan and Gordon Lightfoot foreward as candidates for "greatest songwriter of all time". I put Steve Goodman and Shel Silverstein out there. Not saying they really beat Zim and Gordo, but they deserve consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:41 PM

I truly don't know if America as a whole is ready. But, when I was 9, a black man could not get a haircut in my hometown. My 9 year old daughter has seen a black man become the presumptive nominee of a major political party. That is enough for me right now.

Maybe.


And: when I was 9, women wore beehives and greeted their men with a martini at the door after a hard day's work. Could they make a legit run at POTUS? Ha!

My 9 year old daughter has seen differently. Good enough?

Again, maybe.

Okay, probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM

I'd put up with the beehive if I could get that daily martini treatment....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:00 PM

I don't know Steve Goodman's catalog of songs well enough to really know where he stands in that respect, pdq. Nor Shel Silverstein's, for that matter. But I sure love those Shel Silverstein lyrics you posted above. They're wonderful.

As to who is the greatest songwriter of all time...well...that's impossible to say for sure. It would be like trying to draw a single definitive picture of the wind. One can hazard some subjective opinions, that's all, and opinions are based on only partial knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:09 PM

In the last few years, Bob Gibson's last record called "Making a Mess" was closed out and it can be found quite cheap on eBay. It is all Silverstein-penned songs and he even joins in a few, including "Killed By a Coconut". It has an absolutely perfect backup by Nashville session players. Bob gives a gutsy performance, considering his health problems at the time. One of my personal favs of alltime.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:10 PM

Amos,
If we ever meet in person, and you wear a beehive, I will make you a martini.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:09 AM

I'm glad to see the comments about Obama's heritage. I'd like to add that he is just as White as he is Black, and it's about time that we ALL recognized the silliness of this labeling.

I'd like to add: Hear, hear, BWL! and Way to Go, Amos! I'm proud to know the both of youse.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:40 AM

Thank you to all who contributed to this thread.

It has made very interesting reading and I feel that I now have a better understanding of your election processes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Richard, we had "two queens" back with Richard the Lionheart, according to some historians... Although the Greeks and Romans were well ahead of us on that score.

FWIW, I'd be more interested to find whether the US would elect someone who was non-Christian. By that I don't necessarily mean Muslim, Sikh or whatever, but more simply just someone who doesn't go to church. As an outsider, this seems to me to be a much bigger political division.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM

I can't speak for America either, but personally, I AM ready for a "Liberal" president. God knows the conservatives have made a sorry mess of things.
McCain is pro war and anti choice. No way would I vote for him.
In the matter of race relations, seems to me that it is not a matter of color, but of culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

Thank you, PDQ for posting the lyrics--and hijacking an otherwise dubious thread--Shel was the best!

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

"Yer damn right America is ready. America IS ready. Let it be written, and let it be done."


               Ready for what, four more years of the Office of Faith Base Initiatives?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:16 AM

No question, for those who care about the separation of church and state, McCain is a much better choice. Or maybe not.

Main question appears to be: when will the anti-Obama posters actually start doing some research--and thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

M.Ted ...... please enlighten me.

What exactly is dubious about this thread?

To my mind, I asked a very reasonable question, and have said nothing that is not being said daily in the media here in the UK, yet the response from some USA mudcatters is that such things should not be discussed or talk about.

I find that deeply disturbing

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM

Left of liberal John? LOL

FWIW, I'd be more interested to find whether the US would elect someone who was non-Christian. By that I don't necessarily mean Muslim, Sikh or whatever, but more simply just someone who doesn't go to church. As an outsider, this seems to me to be a much bigger political division.

Graham.
   
   Astute observation Graham and unfortunately the answer is no, even though many of our founding fathers were deists, rosecrutians and free thinkers. The virginians were mostly official Anglicans but only because in pre-revolutionary Virginia it was the law. I had a distant ancestor, a Quaker, who was fined a pound sterling for not attending the Church of England. He was indicted by his own brother. But never-the-less our founders seem to have understood the importance of separation of church and state better than we do. I was only yesterday complaining to my local PUBLIC library about a prominent display of Christian fiction. I told them that as a public institution receiving government money it was inappropriate and probably illegal to promote a specific religion at the expense of all others. They just seemed confused.

    Shel Silverstein was indeed a prolific and unique songwriter. He wrote "A Boy Named Sue" for Johnny Cash, "One's On the Way" for Loretta Lynn, "The Unicorn" for the Irish Rovers and nearly the entire repertoire for Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show: "Cover of the Rolling Stone", "Sylvia's Mother" etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:11 PM

You're right, it is disturbing. What is more disturbing, though, is that the national media are giving no coverage whatsoever to the American Primate Party. None. That tells you something.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM

What exactly do the APP have to offer?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM

I thought the APP's candidate was elected the last time?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

rosecrutians> It's "Rosicrucians" and yes, I am.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

If Chongo is elected, there will be fresh mangos available in every grocery store and convenience store across America. Chongo will also go to the Middle East and meet with the principal leaders of Israel, Hamas, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen, Turkey, the Kurds, the Iraqi Shiites, the Iraqi Sunnis, etc, PLUS the top execs of the western multinational oil companies...he will ask them to all meet in a room together and talk out their differences across the table until they reach an amicable agreement on behalf of their suffering citizens worldwide. The exits to that room will be sealed and guarded by very large and mean gorillas. The various political and business leaders will not be let out of said room until they have come to an agreement that satisfies all parties and ends the current military conflicts once and for all.

Since that could take awhile for those guys to reach such an accord, Chongo says he is willing to devote as much time as necessary, but he will also ensure that the esteemed leaders only have enough food and water in that room to last for 10 days. He figures that by the 11th or 12th day of consultation things should be all worked out...

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

A truly representative leader then. A true man of the people

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

"FWIW, I'd be more interested to find whether the US would elect someone who was non-Christian. By that I don't necessarily mean Muslim, Sikh or whatever, but more simply just someone who doesn't go to church."

Most recent (post-WWII) US Presidents have not really been regular churchgoers, but they have found it politically expedient to make an occasional appearance at a Sunday service, and to avoid any public discussion of their true spiritual beliefs and disbeliefs.

I've read that war hero Eisenhower, when he began considering his run for the Presidency, bristled a bit when advisors told him he should be seen going to church if he wanted the public to vote for him. Regular attendance had apparently not been part of his routine before he entered politics. There's an old saying that there are no atheists in foxholes, but maybe you can be an atheist at Supreme Allied Command Headquarters...

Nixon was brought up as a Quaker, and quite obviously strayed from basic Quaker teachings by adulthood. Like all the others, he would make an occasional public Sunday-morning appearance at one "mainstream Protestant" church or another.

Kennedy was very famously a Catholic, if only through his ethnic identity as Irish-Catholic/Irish-American, and as a hero and figurehead for his RC brethern, he had to at least keep up appearances as a practicing Catholic.

LBJ was probably an essentially secular guy who made an occasional church appearance for political purposes, and I think that most professional politicians fall into the same category.

Jimmy Carter, of course, was the exception, a deeply committed Christian.

Of the current crop of contenders, McCain's religious affiliation is the most interesting to me. He is described as an Epicopalian who attends a Baptist church. What's that about? If that Baptist church is indeed the only church that he attends (whether weekly or biannually) and is the church where he contributes to the collection, why hasn't he joined the congregation and thereby joined the Baptists?

On the other hand, if he's so dead-set upon remaining an Episcopalian, why does he not go to an Episcopal church? I can see how a conservative older person might well disagree with that church's current gay-friendly policies; if that's why McCain is not curently a member of any Episcopal parish, why not quietly join the church where he feels more at home and omit all references to his former affilliation?

By the way, in addition to Moslems and Sikhs and non-churchgoing gentiles, there's another group that has not yet produced a US President: American Jews. When will one of them have a turn? Back when JKF's election as the first Roman Catholic president was a topic of current interest, there was some discussion about when we'd see the first Jewsih president. I'm sure that no one back then would have imagined that we'd see an African-American nominee before ever seeing a Jewish one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

It's clearly a question of "keeping up appearances" for the most part....plus not scaring the majority of voters by putting anything unusual in front of them. This is probably true in a great many other political cultures, I would think, but the heavy emphasis on religious issues in the USA is quite unusual in the western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

I see no reason why being Jewish would disqualify anyone from being President. Our most successful people in science, humor, business, technological advancement, and gang operations have been JEwish. Clearly being Jewish means automatically you are well qualified to run the White House. Unless you are a left-handed vegetarian, or a cross-eyed Rotarian, or a lapsed men's work drummer, in which case only on alternate Sundays.

Categorical imperatives are a bit hard to keep up with, aren't they? Maybe they aren't the best basic building block for rational thought, after all.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

Joe Lieberman? It is to gag.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,VOT
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

Not ready for a woman, not ready for a Jew, and it's been over forty years since the last truly progressive American President was elected. And assassinated.

I don't think America's ready for a black president.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

Opinions are easy to come by. For example, I think America would be proud to elect Obama. Or a woman. Or a Jew, Protestant, Buddhist, Congregationalist or Taoist.

It would really make the point that religious persuasions are no-one's business except one's own and have no place being tossed around on the commons like cheap poker chips.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:27 PM

"To my mind, I asked a very reasonable question, and have said nothing that is not being said daily in the media here in the UK"

Your question is "dubious" because it is not really a question, it is an editorial comment on how you view America--it is a weakly veiled way of saying "How can you have an African-American President when you're all such racists?"

Your question is "dubious", because for anyone who is paying attention, it has been answered already. If America weren't ready for Obama, 17.5 million people would not have voted for him already in the primaries, and he wouldn't be he is right now--

Finally, your question is "dubious" because your country faces the same, and perhaps even greater issues related to the inclusion of ethnic/cultural/racial minorities in government, and starting a discussion about whether "American is ready..." is a way of pretending that you are above and beyond it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:48 PM

"There is no "black America". There is no "whie America". There is the United States of America. ..."

Barack Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM

A persons religion, or the lack of it is no more relevant than the color of his skin, or his shorts.
What does "Judge not" mean to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:10 AM

M.Ted ..... thank you for the summary of my reasons for starting such a dubious thread.
I am amazed that without knowing me you can presume to know what I am thinking.

The question had nothing to do with my own views but was an attempt to get a cross section of views from people at the sharp end (so to speak).
Many have done that and I thank them for it.

Some (like yourself) have been very defensive as if to deny past attitudes and history.

Your question is "dubious" because it is not really a question, it is an editorial comment on how you view America--it is a weakly veiled way of saying "How can you have an African-American President when you're all such racists?"
These are your words and your thoughts --- not mine

f America weren't ready for Obama, 17.5 million people would not have voted for him already in the primaries, and he wouldn't be he is right now--
But how many did not/would not vote for him?

our question is "dubious" because your country faces the same, and perhaps even greater issues related to the inclusion of ethnic/cultural/racial minorities in government, and starting a discussion about whether "American is ready..." is a way of pretending that you are above and beyond it all.
I am very aware of my countries shortcomings in this area and I am in no way pretending that the UK is different.
Start a thread about it and I will give you my views in detail, should you would be interested to hear them,.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM

M Ted, I think the original post was not so much "you're all such racists" as "reports abroad say there's a large minority of Americans who are racist". Having said that, I personally haven't seen that kind of reporting. Whilst there may indeed be significant amounts of racism in the US, I don't know how far it goes. Interestingly, it might not actually make a large difference to the result - I think racism tends to be more common amongst lower-income people who are socially isolated, and they're less likely to be voting anyway.

I guess it's similar to my question about non-Christian candidates. The "Christian" bloc is such an important voting group that as PoppaGator says, there seems to be a strong need to create the impression of Christian faith even if you're not actually a believer. So maybe my question needed to be rephrased to ask whether the US is ready to accept a Prez who doesn't actively sell himself (or herself) as a Christian.

In the UK it's kind of the other way around - making a public show of your religion is a vote loser because it implies that people who don't worship your way are inferior, and Brits *hate* to be told how to think. So although Tony Blair is a very committed Christian, he kept that an extremely private matter throughout his stint as Prime Minister.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

In the US Jimmy Carter tried to play down his strong religious beliefs as well. Everything went to hell in a hand basket with Ronald Reagan when he needed to extreme religious right to form a coalition to put his disasterous programs into play.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

I know nothing about what you're thinking--and only responded to what you said, which I politely characterized as "dubious". My comment still stands.

If you think that I "deny past attitudes and history", it proves that you have not followed any of the many discussions that we've had here at Mudcat over the many years on subjects related to race-such as this, revolving around the song Strange Fruit. Read it, and follow the links. You might learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

Grab says "Whilst there may indeed be significant amounts of racism in the US, I don't know how far it goes. Interestingly, it might not actually make a large difference to the result - I think racism tends to be more common amongst lower-income people who are socially isolated, and they're less likely to be voting anyway."

You misunderstand the concept of racism. "Racism" is a different thing from bigotry--a bigot view others based on racial and ethnic prejudices. Racism is a social system, where status and opportunity are based on race/ethnicity. Of course, in order to establish and maintain racist institutions, it is necessary to cultivate bigotry.

So actually, the real racists in our society are not the socially isolated, lower income bigots, they are the highly educated, literate, and often seemingly open-minded people who maintain and perpetuate our social, educational, and governmental institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

A thoughtful discussion from the TImes Online (UK) includes these remarks:

"In two years of campaigning, in an environment in which every waking moment is recorded, he (Obama) has never uttered a single word to lend credence to those who imagine him an alien figure. He has been consistently classy, almost boringly straight. The worst one could say about him is that he is a Hamlet-like intellectual who is often subject to paralysis by analysis.

But to win, Mr Obama must reach down deep and dispel the doubts people have about him. So far, he has avoided inflaming them and taken great care not to lend them any credibility by his own statements or positions. Now, he must go further and reassure voters who want to believe him, but are afraid.

Is America ready for a black president? Hell, yes. Mr Obama's triumphs in states where there are virtually no blacks attest to it. Until the Rev Jeremiah Wright opened his mouth, the candidate was sweeping white voters. Even when the black community discovered Mr Obama and abandoned their historical affection for the Clintons, the white electorate refused to polarise along racial lines; Mr Obama consistently won about half of the white vote. But when Mr Wright spoke, he sent a shiver of fear down the nation's spine and millions of voters who wanted to back Mr Obama, and hated George W. Bush, abandoned the black candidate out of fear.

Blowing away this miasma of doubt will not be easy. Mr Obama, a private person who dislikes public displays of emotion, will have to speak from the heart about what America means to him. He will have to embrace our national sense of uniqueness and give voice to what Ronald Reagan said: "You can call it mysticism if you want to, but I have always believed that there was some divine plan that placed this great continent between two oceans to be sought out by those who were possessed of an abiding love of freedom and a special kind of courage."

American exceptionalism is deeply rooted in our national consciousness and has been so offended by Mr Wright's characterisation of the US as a force of evil in the world that Mr Obama must assuage that hurt if he wishes to appease our fears.

While the US has always worked to keep Church separate from government, there has always been a kind of civil religion in America that speaks to our values and mission in the world. The president of the United States is the high priest of that religion and it is up to him to give it voice and apply it to the challenges that pop up in our path. Mr Obama must make clear to his countrymen that he subscribes to that faith and can pick up his duties as high priest. He needs to articulate the narrative that underpins the nation's faith in itself and show that he identifies with it.

I doubt that this election will be close. Either Mr Obama or John McCain will win it in a landslide, depending on whether or not Mr Obama can fulfil his existential mission of explaining to the American people who he really is. ..."

Full article can be read here.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: nutty
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

Thanks Amos ..... I must stop reading such articles. They obviously fill my head with lots of questionable ideas.

Perhaps I should just ask a group of Mudcatters for their views !!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:19 PM

"I doubt that this election will be close. Either Mr Obama or John McCain will win it in a landslide, depending on whether or not Mr Obama can fulfil his existential mission of explaining to the American people who he really is. ..."

Excellent article. This is what I am coming to believe and I am uncomfortable about (not really fearful of), the possible unpleasantries in the aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

pdq: Your post of June 4 to Wesley S., Here, here!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure and that is all the white folk ain't been up to the task... I mean, let's do some review here... Here are just a few of the white presidents our country has to endure:

James Polk
Andrew Johnson
Rutherford Hayes
William Taft
oh yeah, William McKinley
Herbert Hoover
Richard Nixon
Ronnie Raygun
George Bush I 'n II
Bill Clinton
Andrew Jackson

These guys were all stinkers an all white so, hey, maybe white folks ain't good at being president... Plus, everyone knows they can't jump...

Right???

B;~)

(This oughtta get the McCainites all fired up, Bobert... They will indignantly call you a racist... You want that??? Huh???)

...lol...

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

I don't see anything wrong with Polk, Jackson, and Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:42 PM

The expression is "Hear! Hear!", Doug.

"Here! Here!" would be the opposite to, "No, it's over there, dummy!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:20 PM

This is a deep thread - Americans,just remember when you vote for a politician as your leader, that's just exactly what you'll receive.   

Do you really, really, want a politician?

I wouldn't, they have never impressed me, or delivered most of their pre-election promises.
It might be better to vote for someone who didn't apply for the job of President, but that you could nominate 'cos you felt they would make a good President. Pick someone you feel trustworthy and nominate them.
The author Neville Shute wrote a book about this. Can't recall the title off-hand, but it was great.
I don't get a chance to vote on leaders in my country, we are not a democracy.
We have a Queen, a stupid Prince with his mistress, er... wife, Duchess of Cornwall, two heirs to the throne after him, who are useless, nightclubbing idiots who pretend to be members of the armed forces, and an incompetent Scots shithead as Prime Minister whom nobody voted for.
Be very careful and keep your democratic country safe.Think this one through and don't be misled by the new, improved, black Kennedy, or the safe McLain.
Just my humble opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

Here's the problem, Greycap.

Suppose you came to a banquet, and you were very hungry, but there were only two dishes being served up on the table. One was Democratic Mush. The other was Republican Hash. Both dishes appeared pretty nauseating...but there was simply nothing else there to be eaten.

They gave you a fork and knife and spoon, directed you to your seat, and with a big smile on their faces said, "What would you like, sir? Democrat Mush or Republican Hash?" And you realize that you have just spent the last 8 years eating Republican Hash????

That is the choice American voters are given. You are quite right that they are being taken for a ride, but guess who runs the cafeteria? The Democrats and Republicans. And you can't eat anything they don't serve up. It's not on the menu if they don't serve it.

And you think America has a real democracy????? Ha! I laugh and laugh at the thought of that! America has a democracy like Rome had a democracy under the Caesars. They're just as badly off as you lot in the UK...maybe even worse.

The situation is sort of like that in Canada too, but it's milder. That's because we Canadians like a milder approach to things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:51 PM

Little Hawk, dude, you are THE MAN. Not a single other person around here could dream of calling Obama "mush" and get away with it untouched.

Subject: RE: BS: Is America ready ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:58 PM

Heh!

Well, you know, I kind of like Obama, actually. I really do. It's just his damned party I can't stand. And I can't stand the Republicans either.

Someone has got to pull back the blasted curtain and reveal "the Great Oz" one of these days...but who that someone will be I cannot say.