BS: Green/Godly Gardening

Subject: BS: GREEN/GODLY GARDENING
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

(Further to the gardening verses in walkaboutsverse.741.com)

Green gardening is native gardening, and vegetables, plus other consumables, should be the only exotic-flora we plant - as doing so can help limit food-miles, etc. By filling our other garden spaces with natives, we use less water and other resources, whilst aiding the native-fauna that, over the centuries, have evolved with them.
(Even high-nectar exotics, such as Buddleia, that are very attractive to SOME native-fauna, should be avoided, because they upset nature's/God's balance – God created evolution, too, that is.)
Our green gardens, with their vegies and natives, can be made still greener by the addition of compost heaps/bins; a wildlife pond – for native frogs, newts, etc, rather than exotic goldfish; bee- and bird-boxes, plus carefully selected feeders; rain- and grey-water vats; by growing everything organically, including thrifty home-propagation/species-swapping; and by leaving some lush untidy patches, decaying branches, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

Do you like potatoes, tomatoes and beans?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:58 PM

Oy, vey.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

"Do you like potatoes, tomatoes and beans?" OTS...Yes, I do like eating such exotic vegetables, which I have exempted from the above native-only rule, for environmental/"green" reasons (food-miles, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Who are you to exempt things? Any divine apointments we should know about?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

"Godly" in "Green/Godly Gardening", OTS, refers to the idea that God created evolution, too; and I think it's bad to upset nuture's/God's balance by growing non-consumable exotic flora instead of natives in our gardens, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

By all means ask us to CONSIDER planting native species, and give your reasons.
But telling us what to do in the name of a supposed god, (who if it exists presumably made us the medlesome species we are) will not inspire many to do it your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Either way, as loss of native habitat is inextricably linked to loss of native species, planting natives is obviously a good thing that, after decades of preference for exotica, is just beginning to (re)gain favour in England, e.g.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:31 AM

But who are you, Walkabouts, to decide what is exempt? Maybe if you were to give us your reasoning, but for you to make pronouncements on God's will....

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:03 AM

If the explorers of old had not brought exotic plants to England and nursed them in the great glass cathedral that is Kew Gardens, then several species would have become extinct forever, rather than just in their native countries.

Many plants and animals have been reintroduced to their native soils soley because they've been nurtured and reproduced elsewhere.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:11 AM

Walkabouts, there are a number of us here who are serious gardeners and responsible stewards.    We are not too inclined to simple pronouncements.    If you have a passion for gardening and a point of view, I think I can safely say that many of us welcome you to our conversations. However, they are definitely conversations.

Discussions about "native" species need to be thoughtful and informed to have meaning. Many non-native species of flora and fauna on this side of the pond (North America) have still been around for a few hundred years and have become important, and not necessarily inappropriate, pieces of the ecosystem. The ecosystem is very different from what it was in 1492. For better or for worse, that is the reality. In 1492 a squirrel along almost any point of the Atlantic coast could have traveled to the Mississippi River without ever setting foot on the ground.   That solid, virgin forest that stretched 1/3 of the way across this continent is gone forever, and the habitat is different in most places. That is the reality. Old World flora and fauna have been here hundreds of years and are integral parts of the current ecosystem. Furthermore, they have evolved along with the changing ecosystem. And ecosystems are naturally in a state of flux. By definition, so is evolution. Simplistic pronouncements really don't contribute much to understanding or protection.

Janie

Broad 'pronouncements' really don't add much to intelligent and discerning discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM

pardon the redundancy above. It is redundant even for me!>)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:48 AM

Please first define 'natives'. Native at what particular time in history - pre-Victorian, pre-Tudor, pre-Medieval, pre-Roman, prehistoric?

I don't disagree with you about growing veggies and plants that are best suited to the environment, but this is now changing rapidly - I'm growing my tomatoes ourside the polytunnel for the first time this year (up in Yorkshire), might try the chillies next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:29 AM

"If the explorers of old had not brought exotic plants to England and nursed them in the great glass cathedral that is Kew Gardens, then several species would have become extinct forever, rather than just in their native countries.

Many plants and animals have been reintroduced to their native soils soley because they've been nurtured and reproduced elsewhere."

(LTS) - but this, too, can/should be done in situ...

Poem 203 of 230: IN SITU

When faced with a critical view,
    A zoo's main raison d'être is -
The conservation of species;
    But this can be done in situ.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

To Janie:

Firstly, I try not to take an attitude of "passion" that you mention...

Poem 150 of 230: TEARS

Watching a documentary
    Of the '66 World Cup,
And the way of England's Ramsey,
    I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up."

It voiced and showed his calm way -
    He playing things down a touch;
And, as his home team won the day,
    They showed care but not too much.

Analytical Englishmen -
    Cool over the tasks that lay;
We see some of it in Henman,
    But it's not the modern way.

Sadly, passion and youthful thought
    Have become the status quo,
And social-standards and sport
    Have sunk relatively low.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Secondly, are you sure that in the USA "That solid, virgin forest that stretched 1/3 of the way across this continent is gone forever"?...here in England, most native habitats/forest can be re-created by human hands - if the will and the land is there.

Thirdly, plant hunting/replacement has nothing to do with nature's/God's evolution.

To Theleveller: I think that's good - you'll be "doing your bit" (Churchill) to cut down on food-miles and packaging, and the taste will probably be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:37 AM

Do you ever discuss, or do you just quote your website?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:46 AM

Thirdly, plant hunting/replacement has nothing to do with nature's/God's evolution.

You don't think that God could inspire individuals to plant hunt/replace, or does he have to descend and do everything himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:49 AM

" but this, too, can/should be done in situ..."

Of course it can and should, but for many species it is already too late.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 AM

WAV, your attitude seems to be one of extreme, sublime boredom, that old English caricature. It feels studied.

Here are some examples of passionate Englishmen. All from before the 1920s.

Sir Henry Rawlinson.
Sir Richard Francis Burton.
Horace Walpole.
William Blake.
William Sleeman.
Matthew 'Monk' Lewis.
Byron.
Shelley.
William Wilberforce.

Keeping a cool head while being passionate about something is not self-contradictory.

Anyway, there is a simple reason why that forest in North America can never be restored. High population density.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Sedayne (in Norfolk)
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM

WAV - there is no God, only the wondrous faith of collective humanity. And as William Blake said: 'Where man is not - nature is barren.'

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

Thread reopened. I can't figure out why it was closed, and none of the volunteers reported having closed it.
Sorry about the confusion.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM

Well, native is a strange concept when it comes to gardening... Like Janie, I am also a gardener... Gardeners don't just go out and see what is growing around where they live... The look for things which are compatable and things that enhance out quality of life... Many things which we take for granted as being "native" aren't native at all but hybrids that were introduced a long time ago... This introduction could have been assisted by man or assited by other animals that carry or drop seed... Either way, it is Godly...

Our gardens are organic in every repsect and we do try to create the perfect ecosystem for all of God's critters, bugs included... But we also enjoy grasses, azaleas, rhodos, pulmaneria, ferms, wild flowers that don't grace this area of Paradise but that enhance it... And in doing so we creat yet more environs for critters...

When we moved to this farm 3 years ago there wasn't one single bird here... There were few bugs... It was a hog farm where the hogs had eaten everything dwon to bare earth... So we broke up the soil and plowed starw into it... That created a place for the bugs... With the bugs we got birds, and mice and snakes and all of the stuff that nature has to provide... Three short years later and it looks like a bird sanctuary... We have hundred and hundreds of birds... We have snakes, and mice, and toads, and frogs, and, and...

And we also have hundreds of plants which can live and survive well here and they provide homes for other critters... There is a thread about strange bugs... Hey, I wouldn't know where to start as I don't go a day without seein' some bug I don't think I've ever seen before...

Well, that is life here on this farm in Pine Grove holler...

And just to top it off... Next weekend we have a bunch of suburbinits Northern Virgina folks who will trek to our farm for an anual azalea cuttin' exchange and groove on what it's like to live in an place of ecological balance...

BTW, I love those little green frogs that have camped out in our veggie garden... They are about 3/4 inch in size, are very peacefull, eat their weieght in bugs and are some of the mellowest of God's critters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:24 AM

"Godly" in "Green/Godly Gardening", OTS, refers to the idea that God created evolution, too; and I think it's bad to upset nuture's/God's balance by growing non-consumable exotic flora instead of natives in our gardens, etc.

What a crock. Appropriating science and other belief systems into your religion because it suits you to place your god above everyone else, regardless of whether they want to go or not. We see here a great working definition of hubris.

And such a silly rationale for planning a garden.

My organic guru points out regularly that the more blossoms you have around your veggie garden the more potential pollinators you attract. Plus it just plain looks great for the passers-by and visitors who find gardening to be a recreational contact sport.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:36 AM

I like the idea of having native plants, myself. Our area has some harsh conditions (heat, intense summer sun, and occasional drought - one of which we are in right now), and I'm thinking about seeing if our local extension office can tell me about native plants that would do well in our yard without needing any watering. Of course, most of our yard is eventually going to be vegetables and herbs, and I'm planning on planting some heat and drought tolerant roses for the rose hips that I'll use for tea (for vitamin C). But it might be nice to have some native flowering plants as well.

I also like the idea of incorporating spirituality into the practice of gardening. I've been using co-creative gardening practices for several years, and I've had very good results with them.

Here's some background information on co-creative gardening. The first gives some history and background on the two pioneering co-creative gardens, Findhorn, in Scotland, and Perelandra, in Virginia, USA. The second and third are links to Findhorn's website, and Perelandra's website...

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/perelandra.html

http://www.findhorn.org/index.php

http://www.perelandra-ltd.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

Some people seem to prefer easy targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

Yea, he seems to get away with abusing anyone with impunity. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:32 AM

(To think, for some, the greatest comback since Lazarus used to be Jesus!...)
I've heard that many cultivars have had the pollen, and other things benefitial to native fauna, bred out of them, in the name of pleasing (to humans) colours and forms. The gardening ideal presented in my opening post may, for many, be very difficult to reach, but I'm sure that it's good to, at least, lean toward it, as CC, e.g., is doing.
And to Robert, good to hear of those frogs, in particular, as I've also heard they are on the decline in many parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:23 AM

Probably shouldda left God out of your OP, WaV, and also considered that most serious gardeners already do try to strike a balance in their gardens, try to avoid invasive introduced species, and try to attract pollinators, and likely have flourishing compost heaps - so who are you addressing? People dead two hundred years ago who brought a thousand English plants, birds and bugs to NA? The very earthworms here are not native.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

Let's see, we have Japanese Knotweed, Himalayan Balsam, Giant Hogweed, Collared Doves, Grey Squirrels, Coypu, Mink etc etc.
All non native species, and they are firmly established here, and flourishing in the wild.
Why don't you go out and eradicate them while you're at it?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

You forgot white settlers :p

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

If you want to stretch the point, God himself planted non-native species everywhere........... =)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

If the theory about Gondwanaland is correct, then all species started off on the same piece of land, and evolved after the breakup.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:48 AM

He wants the Ur garden, everything put back where it started in his scheme of "the beginning."

It doesn't work that way. It can never happen. It's a waste of time to bludgeon gardeners about it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:12 PM

Taking a break from the tennis (it's raining at Wimbledon), mentioning God was in response to the needless dabate between the existence of God and evolution (i.e., God created it, too).
And some of those on your list JGM have indeed caused huge problems here, which people are now trying to fix; the Victorian plant-hunters were brave but mislead folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

Me, I'm a tolerant gardener. I plant mostly tough old-fashioned perrennials (phloxes, wild-type geraniums, day-lilies, irises, mallows, Lily-of-the-valley, Peony) and a few self-seeding biennials (Sweet William, Foxglove, Forget-me-not, Evening Lychnis), then I allow wild stuff, even so-called weeds, a little space in my flowerbeds, like yarrow, asters, chickweeds. I allow Blackberry Bramble to arch over my sloped rock garden.

I don't so much have a lawn as I have grassy/white clover areas patched with mowed Hawkweed, Speedwell, and Plantain. I encourage Rabbitfoot Clover and Pineapple Weed in the driveway, and wild berry bearing plants around the edges wherever the trees will let them have enough light. I give a little nurture and the occasional trim to Indian pear, Nannyberry, Mountain Ash, Bayberry, where they grow, and let Leatherleaf, Junebush and various wild shrubs protect the lake shore. I erect inobtrusive barriers to human traffic around spots where I know Lady Slipper, Ghostflower, Twinflower, Starflower, Trillium will appear in spring.

Feels right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

Hawk weed is my enemy ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

John G MacK, if I didn't have hawkweed, I'd have about fifty percent less lawn. Fortunately, my property is entirely invisible from the road and from my neighbours, so no one is bothered by my un-grassy vistas. On the up side, I have very few dandelions, as the Hawkweed, though native, is much tougher and outcompetes them!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

Ya know if we were all created in God's image and we are His children who is to say that our work as hybridizers isn't the work of God???

But nevermind that for a minute...

I do have some problems with genetically altered organisms (GAO's) in that patents are held on certain DNA's and if Farmer A purchases GAO corn, for instance, and a bee flies thru Farmer A's farm and then to Farmer B and polinates Farmer B's corn with some of Farmer A's GAO polin then the holder of the GAO patent can sue Farmer B for using the GAO polin???

Now that is some crazy legalin' if I've ever seen it????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

This is a great website for an organization that is working to preserve native species in the US...

http://www.centerforplantconservation.org/

One of my big regrets is that I will never be able to see the forests and prairies of this country as people saw them a few hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

Here's a bunch of links to native plant societies in various states in the US...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22native+plant+society%22&btnG=Google+Search

And here's the website for the native plant society for my state...

http://www.ncwildflower.org/

I've even discovered that there's a local chapter of the North Carolina Native Plant Society, whom I think I will be in touch with to get more information about how I can help preserve some of the native species of this area.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Bee, around here yarrow is used in all kinds of gardens, esp. around commercial spaces. It grows well here and is often planted near Russian sage which is also drought tolerant, looks and smells pretty. I have two plants of it which have grown to over four feet already this year!:-)

I love dandelions and have made tincture from their roots. It's a very good remedy for several things. We don't have many in our yard this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:20 PM

More great links...

Going Native: Urban Landscaping for Wildlife with Native Plants

Why Go Native?

How To Go Native

Create Your Own Native Landscape

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:03 PM

Well, one thing that we do is move stuff from back in the forest to our own woods gardens... There are maiden hair fern, Christmas fern and about a dozen other ferns that grow back in the woods... Black kohash is also a wonderful plant that makes wonderful white plooms... And Indian cucumber makes fir a sweet little area in the woods... Twin leaf is rare but we have it... It dates back to Jefferson as Virginia wildflower... As does the wild hyacinth...

Back in Wes Ginny we had tons of May Apple... It was to the point of being invasive but I'm glad that some hitch-hiked in another plant because we have two now... And we also had the Jack-in-the-pulpits back in Wes Ginny... None made it down but a friend has 'um so we borrowed a couple of his... Trillium, now, we did bring from Wes Ginny and they love it here more than ever and have made tons of babies...

These are all purdy much natives... We have also gone to the top of the mountain and brought down so native azaleas which are doing very well...

BTW, Carol, if you ever visit us I'll take you back in the woods about a mile and other than the very ol' logging road we take to get there you get the real feeling that folks ain't been there in a very long time... It is quite undisturbed... Almost sirreal... The 1st time I found it I just plunked myself down in the middle of it and within 5 muinutes didcovered a small black snake sunning himself in an area where the sun could get thru... I looked beyond him a foot or so and discovered a ***pink lady slipper***, a native I had never seen and had to find in the books, and everywhere I looked there was something else wonderful... All within just a few feet of where I sat down...

Might of fact, I have learned over the years to stop and sit in the forest... It is amazing what you will see and experience all within just a few feet of wherever you might choose to sit... This is how I find morell mushrooms... I sit... And then I find one, then two and then 3 and, and, and...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:07 PM

Kat, white or pink tinged wild yarrow is exceedingly common here. You can buy brightly coloured cultivars from the garden places. I've never bothered, but every couple of years I end up with pastel wild ones that have obviously cross-pollinated with the fancy garden yarrows. I'll have to look up Russian sage.

I've frequently eaten young Dandelion leaves, and enjoyed a friend's dandelion wine on occasion. I actually think they are stunning looking flowers, especially when you see great big healthy ones with flowers almost three inches across.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:54 AM

Dandelion is an excellent spring tonic, rich in vitamins, calcium and iron. The roots are especially high in these vitamins and minerals and easily tinctured. The flowers can be battered and fried as fritters.

Dandelion is not "native."

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:18 AM

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of promoting 'native' species, it can only occurr with the correct environment. Due to climate changes and high population density (especially on our wee island - a.k.a. Britain) it is often not possible to promote the species we'd like to.

For example, I'd love to grow ferns in my garden and, on the whole, I have the right condirions that a lot of british ferns would reqire. However, as I live in the city, there's too much pollution to allow ferns to flourish.

Ultimately what we grow in our gardens is governed by the environment, about which, there is only so much we can do. The best way to ensure that we can keep growing and promoting any species is to keep a broad genetic stock from which to evolve from.

Just for interest's sake...

Why not adopt a variety of veg?

See if your garden can support some wild flowers

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:27 AM

I had a garden once where the main problem was bindweed, then I noticed these astonishingly beautiful moths for which, as it turned out, the bindweed was the natural habitat. After that, the bindweed wasn't a problem at all.

Have a look at http://ukmoths.org.uk/show.php?bf=1513

In England, dandelions are known as piss-a-beds or piss-flowers, owing to their diuretic qualities; in theory, the roots might be roasted & used to make coffee, but I can't, in all honesty, recommend it. As kids we would decorate our bodies with the white sap in the stems, which dries to a pleasing henna type stain. You can also also make dandelion clarinets from the stems by splitting the end into a double reed. Some call these dandelion oboes on account of the double reed, but the essentially parallel bore gives a sound more akin to clarinet-type instruments, and to those parallel bore instruments which do have double reeds, such as the duduk, and the Northumbrian bagpipe chanter.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

That's true, Janie, but great to know of the above interests and movements in native gardening over-the-pond. As suggested above, things have pleasingly moved that way here in England, too. I remember how, a couple of years ago, just one or two others and me received much strong criticism as we argued for native gardening on a BBC forum - but, browsing earlier this year, things had changed dramatically, with folks posting lists of natives and a head-gardening-presenter mentioning his hope to create an all-native garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

Well said, lady penelope.

I'm in the USA. My garden is a NWF certified wildlife habitat. It includes many cultivators of native species, as well as native plants I started from seeds collected in the wild. It also includes cultivators and plants from wild-gathered seeds of many non-native species that made their way to these shores by accident or by design from other places, then naturalized. It also includes deliberately developed hybrids and ornamentals from all parts of the globe, including a few hybrids that made themselves in my garden.

I do my research and stay away from invasive introduced species. I also happily grow and/or nurture non-invasive, non-native species that readily naturalized the meadows, trading paths, roadways and railways of this country that have enriched the herbal food and medicine chest, or which native species of fauna have embraced with enthusiasm. (And a few non-native species of fauna, such as the honey bee.) The USA is a big, big country, and many of the plants in my garden are native to North America, but are either not native to my region, or are uncommon in my region in a naturalized setting. That is because my region was dominated by hardwood forests until just a few centuries ago, and those forests are gone. Plants common on the prairies prosper in my urban, sunny garden, whereas I have virtually no deciduous shade to offer the regionally native species that once comprised the under-story. (I also let interesting weeds develop, sometimes to my regret.)

The idea of gardening with natives and with habitat restoration is a long accepted and promoted practice here in North America. Fortunately, not many are "nazis" about it here, as it would result in significant decline in biodiversity, given the reality of evolution and habitat change caused by human population growth. While I don't profess to know, I find it very difficult to believe that awareness of the value of native plants, and preservation or restoration of native habitats has not been recognized by informed communities of gardeners, foresters, environmentalists and ecologists in countries and regions across the globe contiginous in time with this interest and awareness of it's importance in North America.

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone. There is no one way. Nature, and life, is about seeking balance, seeking the synthesis, exploring the dialectic. Nature is dynamic, not static. It will bite us on the ass in a heartbeat if we are not mindful of that, and may bite us even if we are. Adaptation is the name of the evolutionary game. Mindfulness is an adaptation human beings have evolved the capacity to use.   You are as responsible for acting and communicating mindfully as is the the the individual who mindlessly and ignorantly introduced kudzu to the southern USA from the orient.

We humans have the capacity, and therefore the responsibility to understand that our footprints have implications. But we are also part of nature and of the process of evolution, just as are the tides that washed coconuts and other palm nuts up onto the shores of the tropic and semitropic shores of the Americas, the stormwinds that blow birds across the sea to shit out an "alien" seed onto fertile ground, the Canada geese who decide to "not" fly north for the summer, and instead, breed on an inland waterway in North Carolina, or the Siberian hunter who crossed the icy bridge across the Bering Sea to eventually come to be called "Native American."

Let's all go determinedly native and kill off ourselves on every continent except Africa, the only place on earth where the human species has been confirmed to be native.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:07 PM

What, Janie said...

Strict native gardening is, ahhhhhhh, an exercise in futility... Species are spread naturally and with global warming climate zones will change and some stuff that used to grow well in certain areas won't do well anymore...

Yes, it is great to incorpoarte as much native stuff as possible but gardening strictly native is quite limiting... Around these parts, for instance, there is little that is evergreen and native... We have white pine and cedar... Well, there is nothing inherently wrong with white pine and cedar but these two evergreens leave a lot to be disired when there are so many other evergreens which love growing here, like azaleas, criptomeria, long needle pine, hemlock, umbrella pine, yews, etc... Why would I want to live in a place that has only two natives when I can have so much texture and color and shapes to surround myself with???

And, just for an added benefir, in planting those plants I am creating places for birds where thye white pines and cedars wouldn't have provided...

Yes to natives... No to gardens exclusive to natives...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:27 AM

Janie, you and I have known each other here for a long time and I have always enjoyed your posts. You're a 'Catter I know I can trust as your thoughts and opinions show your sincere interest and the intellect associated with it.


You have just outdone yourself.


Its obvious I think WAV is a complete horse's ass but your post says what I actually feel about him......meaning that zealots drive me nuts(:<))......Beautiful post Janie and exactly on point and to the point. Big Spaw hug comin' your way!

I do have one bone to pick though.......Is there no room in your garden for Kudzu?

Spaw