BS: Green/Godly Gardening

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:30 AM

"There is no one way"

There is with people like that.




But you go to jail afterwards...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:40 PM

Yup, WAV, Janie has nailed it. Your intial post came across, likely unintentionally, as if you were delivering Truth to the Ignorant masses, when, as you can see, most every gardener is well aware of environmental facts and the desireability of including natives and being careful of what exotics one plants in relation to wildlife and one's lifestyle.

Here in North America, we are awash in exotics, almost all of them from Britain, with a few Asian invaders tossed in for variety. Many have been here so long they act like natives and have become inportant for some birds and insects.

Most people think the much-loved Salt Rose, or Beach Rose, that grows in splendour, with big double fragrant pink blooms and big juicy hips, everywhere there is a little salt spray is a native, but its origins are in China and Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone.

I second Spaw and Bee. I don't think it was unintentional, however. There's a preachy element in the various posts I've perused from this member, which is why I don't read or post on his threads. I was lured into this one by the gardening topic, but repulsed by the dogma (not to be confused with spirituality).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone.

That and I've developed a very srong dislike to Walkaboutsverse's English nationalism, as if being English is the only way to enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

I've been having some difficulty identifying some of the plant life in my yard because my plant keys mostly cover native plants. They do cover some introduced species, but there are a lot that are not covered. If anyone knows of any good plant identification websites that address introduced species in the US, a link would be appreciated.

(Apologies for interrupting the feeding frenzy with discussion of the thread topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:46 PM

Carol, there is, if I ever find it again, a huge imagebank of plant species in the US, including introduced species, but they are not separated out that way. I think, but am not sure, that it is connected to the US Department of Agriculture. You might look up their main site and see if there's a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

Much obliged. I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM

Carol, I think this is it.

http://plants.usda.gov/

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

The USDA site looks interesing, although I don't see any way to key plants out using blossoms as well as other characteristics, which would be most helpful.

I was surprised to see Dodder listed as a noxious weed, considering there are quite a few species of Dodder that are native to the US. My guess is that the USDA site is more concerned with plants that interfere with agriculture than they are with preserving native species.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

Carol,

We also often had trouble identifying introduced plants down in the area where you live. The climate allows for plants from such a broad area of climate conditions that regional plant guides we had for most of the Eastern US and the Carribean didn't come close to covering everything we came across in our wanderings. Hope the site Bee linked to is helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

I find the USDA search page, which the Image Gallery link on the left hand column takes you to, is pretty helpful. Granted you can't search by blossom type, but a lot of other criteria is searchable. If you don't recognize the biological terms for different kinds of plants, take a few minutes to look up the meanings, as they usually mean something pretty simple.

The advantage of the site for me is the sheer number of plants you can search for - over 40,000, including shrubs, sub-shrubs and trees, which are often hard to identify.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:56 PM

I have some background in plant identification, having worked as an interpretive naturalist in my younger days, and having been a wildflower identification enthusiast ever since then.

I tried a couple of searches with parameters I thought would produce results, and they were not terribly specific but they didn't turn much up. I'll keep trying, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:35 AM

To illustrate my point about there being some RECENT change for the good in attitudes toward growing natives/exotics among English gardeners, about 3 years ago, Gardeners' World (BBC) got viewers to vote on what style of garden they'd like to see created at the show's site. And a "tropical garden" was the clear winner - the selected exotics grew lush to human eyes, but NOT to most native fauna.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:38 AM

WaV, I'd bet most serious or even casual gardeners don't bother responding to polls on television programs. People who respond to such polls are self selected, unrepresentative, and mostly reflect people who like interacting with their television. So that is hardly a viable bit of evidence for your belief that interest in and basic understanding of the importance of native gardening is recent.

Of course it would be nice if your television shows were more proactive in popularizing such trends - local gardening shows here have done so for at least a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM

I, quite simply, have better things to do with my time than 'interact' with my television, like actually getting out into the garden and getting my hands dirty, no I don't use gardening gloves. By 'native' fauna, I assume Walkaboutsverse is talking English yest again *yawn*

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

I thought you'd at least agree, Lord, that I do care about things beyond English soil, including the native flora and fauna in different lands - please see my life's work, e.g.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:45 PM

No thank you, I'm not English, I was born in Wales and still live here. Please don't bother with you English nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 11:29 PM

I had to give up on the USDA website. I couldn't narrow my search down enough to make it possible for me to search in the amount of time I have available for it, and I found out that I can take plant samples to my local extension office for plant identification, so I think I'll see what I can find out that way. But I appreciate the help.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:34 AM

To CarolC - I think Kew Gardens and/or the RHS (not that I'm a monarchist) offer a similar service on this side of the pond. And to LBK, on the other side of the dyke! - I've enjoyed several visits to your good nation, e.g...

Poem 65 of 230: NORTH WALES

"Hills meeting sea"
    Proclaims to me
"Good scenery."

And it's views of North Wales,
    Both sides of the train-rails,
From which this notion hails.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 07:29 AM

Lookit here Jerkwad......Who y'all callin' a dyke? You be some kinda' asshole homophobe aintcha'?   Yeah.... I knew it.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM

Offa's Dyke, i.e., Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

And here was me thinking this was about an undiscovered 10cc track

Get it? Eh? Get it?

Oh, hang on, Green, not Creme?

Ahhhh

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

ell fortunately Wales doesn't really care what you think of it or its people, Walkaboutsverse, so, please keep you patronising attitude to yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:39 PM

So if somebody says they prefer England and English culture, that's not ok. And if they say they also enjoy other countries (or regions) and their cultures, that's not ok, either. Is it simply the fact of being English that people don't approve of?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:04 PM

Erm, actually I think it's being told what constitutes being 'english' by someone with a very personal and specific definition of such.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

Could it be that those living within England who wish to keep the kingdom together are actively keeping English culture down? Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...I say, we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time, and with, rather, eco-travel and fair-trade with other nations, etc

.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

Walkaboutsverse's has an extremely patronising, 'I know best because I'm English' attitude, somewhat akin the Victorians attitude to the 'great unwashed heathens' in overseas lands during the high points (if you can call them that) of The British Empire. "Tiger hunting in Injah at all that!"

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:44 PM

I could be wrong about this, but the impression I get is that what is being advocated is to allow Scotland and Wales (and presumably, Northern Ireland) to be their own countries, and have England be just England on its own. That doesn't sound patronizing to me. It sounds rather more humble than what I'm accustomed to hearing (reading) from English people.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Good Lord?! - I just gave a strong indication that I hate imperialism, then, very next post, you accuse me of supporting it.
To CC - as you may have heard, there is going to be a referendum on independence for Scotland soon, which I, for one, fully support.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM

Just what the hell does "eco-travel" have to do with anything?!

I stand by what I said, Walkaboutsverse

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:18 PM

I have no problem with promoting traditions from England. I have a problem with someone telling me what is to be premoted because it is 'english'. A subtle difference I grant you, but one I think is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM

Seems to me Wales has an ally in the form of the person being criticized in this thread (not that one person can really do much of anything except give an opinion) It seems a shame that this is not being understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,JD
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

WAV,

I'd really like independance for Mercia. It's a more 'traditional' country.

Will you support my campaign?

JD

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Wessex Liberation Front
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Can we rely on your support in our fight for a free and independent Wessex?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Carol - there have been many apologists for WAV. He seems to alienate them fairly rapidly.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

No - but, joking apart, I genuinely believe that, given all the conquest and immigration that has occurred over the centuries, the best way FROM NOW ON is this nationalism with eco-travel (i.e., visiting other nations via "green"/eco. travel) and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger U.N.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:09 PM

I still don't see what 'eco-travel' has to do with anything, apart from an attempt on your part to promote a rather dubious nationalism. If I were a more suspicious person, which I'm not, I would begin to wonder what you mean by the best way FROM NOW ON. You're not, I hope, refering to the restricting of immigrants into Britain are you...?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:16 PM

It's so easy to pick on people who never fight back.

What I see happening is one poster is being attacked, mostly not for what this person is saying, but rather, for stuff of their own that other people are projecting onto this person. I'm taking a very different meaning from what I am reading from this poster than many other people are taking. I see this as probably a result of some weaknesses in communication on the part of the one being attacked, along with what appears to be an eagerness on the part of some people to gang up on one person and collectively abuse that person.

If I remember correctly, someone has compared this to playground bullying, and I would have to say that I agree with that characterization.

(I am not allowed to specifically refer to individual posters, so I have to couch my language somewhat obliquely.)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

I asked a question, I'd like an answer.

What has eco-travel to do with anything? It's simple enough!

Apparently, I've found out in my researches in the Mudcat forum threads, the instigator of this particular thread is very prone to not answering a direct question, of which mine is the current example. Thus, if I were a person prone to being suspicious I would begin to wonder what he/she was about.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:57 PM

Some people see discussion and other people see attack.

Goes round and round here at the 'cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM

Yeah. The attackers see discussion and several neutral third parties see attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:21 PM

"Neutral third party" - now that deserves a horse laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:13 AM

I'm not the only one who has commented on the attacks. Several other people have as well. One of them even admitting to not agreeing with anything the one being attacked has said (this was privately - the person who said that also said that because of the way some people are being attacked here, s/he was seriously considering not posting in the Mudcat any more, and that person hasn't made any posts since having sent me that message).

In my case, I wasn't particularly aware of any of the posts by the person being attacked until I saw people ganging up on this person here in this thread. At that time, I checked out other threads this person had posted to and noticed a consistent pattern of abuse, including somebody with editing powers editing the person's posts (right in the post itself) to change the spelling of words for the purpose of ridiculing the person; for instance, changing the spelling of "Pennine" to "penile", and "surfeit" to "surtit", and some others. This person has been called a jerk wad and a horse's ass here in this thread (and a few other things in a post that's not there any more), and a buttfuck, dumbass, shitforbrains, an English jack-off, and quite a few other things in other threads.

Other people may feel ok about either jumping in and adding to the abuse, or remaining silent while others are doing it, but I have difficulty living with myself if I remain silent when I see stuff like this going on, especially considering the person being attacked, whose only offense has been having opinions that some people don't like and expressing them in ways some people don't like, has never attacked anyone or called anyone any names, and has been nothing but gracious in response to the numerous attacks directed at this person, never once responding in kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:30 AM

CarolC - I agree that some parties here have degenerated to name calling and agree that this is purile behaviour best left in the playground. It certainly doesn't put Mudcat in a good light if posters think it part of reasonable debate.

However, I can understand the frustration that quite a few people feel when attempting to enter into discussions with WAV. WAV simply does not discuss or enter into exchanges of ideas. He simply and persistently promotes his rather narrow viewpoints (IMO) and refutes any statements he sees as being contrary to his. If you have looked at the various threads WAV has started or posted to, you will see he has a specific agenda that has nothing to do with rational argument and debate and everything to do with self promotion.

While I'm with that American feller and believe that people should be able to express their opinions whether I agree with them or not, WAV insists on 'flag waving' and even appears to take a martyrish satisfaction at people taking pot shots at him. So I'm less inclined to be all that sympathetic towards him when people do exactly that.

I do think that people should not get into abusive slanging matches though. Apart from being just plain bad behaviour, it's fairly obvious that WAV will not 'give' on many points of discussion. Best leave him to his opinions in these cases, I say. Attempting to 'win' an argument with him will acheive nothing and will merely fuel his martyr complex.

I have been following this and another thread in the hope that interesting discussions would occurr - and they have. But I must say that I think they have occurred inspite of WAV and not because of his contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:47 AM

........evolution created god??

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:56 AM

Also a lot of people become infuriated when someone tells them how they should be practising something they have committed a large part of their lives to, and when a lot of good advice is given in the other direction, the response is ... well just a bizarre refusal to listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:22 AM

Oh well; I said I wouldn't post again, but times change. Please refer to these two posts. Critique WAV response I have tried repeatedly to get WAV to engage in debate about some of his more repellent views, but the posts quoted are just one example of how difficult this is. His response to a considered critique of his views and manner of expressing them was to tell me that I was in a terrible mood (I wasn't, but professionally I was concerned about his state of mind) and that he hates imperialism (which I didn't mention). I repeat; there is a psychological payoff for WAV when people engage (or try to) in the depressingly futile arguments he starts. (Lady P, in a great post, is on the right lines when she talks about 'martyrish satisfaction; see above) He then prolongs the issue (and thereby the payoff) by refusing to answer direct questions and changing the subject, which provokes considerable frustration among those who actually know what they are talking about. The only strategy that does any good here is to deny the payoff by ignoring his more extreme and irritating pronouncements. Note; I am not saying 'shun him'. When he starts to post things that are not designed to get a contrary reaction, he should be encouraged into reasonable and rational debate.
My standpoint here is not personal irritation, although it would be easy to feel that way; I think that WAV will benefit from the approach suggested.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:36 AM

God created evolution, too, that is

Given that evolution wasn't an issue until Darwin first mooted the notion in publication as recently as 1859, one might be tempted to ponder if God didn't create secular humanism too. If God did indeed create evolution, then he also created the mechanisms whereby the potentials for hybridisation are at last realised, and exploited, even down to a genetic level. If God has determined the dexterous inclinations of green-fingered humanity (still hunting and gathering after all these years!), then everything is both Green and Godly, according the ultimate and divinely appointed ecology postulated by Christians whose hearts, after all, are set upon the divine hereafter rather than any worldly concerns per se. Creationists would no doubt disagree, but is Intelligent Design really any better? I think, in this instance, perhaps not.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

I see gardening in a very different way. To me it is about connecting with the land, with the miracle of growing living things and acknowledging the beauty of nature and her infinite variety. It's about green things, earthy things and the spirits of wood and stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

100!!