BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues

Subject: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM

Here and elsewhere I'm interested in discussions of nominees' issues.

For instance, today The Wall Street Journal reported that Jim Johnson, one of the two men that Obama chose to explore vice presidential figures, had received loans from Countrywide Financial Corp. with the help of the firm's chief executive, Angelo Mozilo.

Obama's campaign suggested its surrogates call the story "overblown and irrelevant."

"But Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee-in-waiting, jumped in quickly.

"There is nothing 'overblown and irrelevant' about millions of Americans facing foreclosure and Barack Obama entrusting his most important decision as a presidential candidate to a man who has accepted millions in special loans from a subprime mortgage lender," said Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for the Republican presidential contender.

June 9 News

But isn't John McCain himself most vulnerable on an issue such as this? And in his case it was not a friend of his but he himself at the age of 51. People have not forgotten the Keating Five corruption scandal which was the biggest thing in the news for a considerable period of time. It is true that he was not tried and convicted as several of his compadres were but he and John Glenn were both chided for using poor judgment.


Snippets from another site:

"The Lincoln bailout cost taxpayers $2.6 billion, making it the biggest of the S&L scandals. In addition, 17,000 Lincoln investors lost $190 million."

"After McCain's election to the House in 1982, he and his family made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, three of which were to Keating's Bahamas retreat. McCain did not disclose the trips (as he was required to under House rules) until the scandal broke in 1989. At that point, he paid Keating $13,433 for the flights."

One of Many Keating Stories

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:07 PM

Heck, my mortgage is from Countrywide. Second time I've borrowed from them, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:12 PM

Ours it, too, Rapaire, though it is our first.

Ebbie, I hope a lot of folks will remember McCain and the Keating 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:20 PM

I mean, I had a mortgage from them on the condo in Kentucky. That was paid off when we sold it and we have the current mortgage from them. Lots of people have borrowed from Countrywide; it's one of the biggest lenders in the US -- and it did not focus on "sub-prime" borrowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:30 PM

Countrywide is not a "subprime" lender.

Most mtg companies in recent years offered subprime packages to people who really couldn't afford to buy houses, thus the problems they're all in now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

Bogus argument. McCain's involvement in Keating 5 doesn't negate the charges against Obama.

The dude he picked to head up his veep vetters committee is a MN slimeball.

Obama also went after Clinton for HER connections to Countrywide.

What's good for the goose, as they say.

Just because he is your guy don't mean he ain't on the wrong side of plenty of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

When it comes to recent borrowing irregularities McCain is no one to point any fingers...

Just last fall McCain borrowed money to keep his campaign afloat and guess what he used as collaterial??? Well, seems that he pledged his future federal public campiagn funds and then before the loan was even paid back was making noise about backing out of using those funds???

Now there isn't any particualr smoking gun here but there's sho nuff some funny business going on???

And what makes this all more interesting is that his wife is worth millions and millions???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

Does it not strike people that folks are investing in would-be Presidents because they freakin' well expect to get their investments back with lotsa interest?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

...Jim Johnson... had received loans from Countrywide Financial Corp....

I once had long distance service through MCI. Does that somehow establish a connection between me and Bernie Ebbers?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

For shame, BWL. For shame. *g*

There are no charges against Obama, Fantasyweaver. Perhaps you should read more carefully.


It appears to me that far from being the pristine state I thought of it as being, Minnesota is just crawling with scumbags. Must be the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM

The crux of the matter is the hypocracy in both camps.
It was a big deal when Clinton & Gore smoked weed but for GWB being a recovered alcoholic and possibly using cocaine was "none of our business". The same pretty much happened for Al Gore and John Kerry with various parties raising a ruckus about their actual service while actual records of GWB's service are MIA (and we all know Cheney had different pans for his life).

I'm not trying to single out the Republicans in this, it happens on both sides (and all parties). I guess it's all in what you want to believe about a person to justify your positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Just goes to show that Obama has nothin' to hide about it. His handlers would not have allowed him to mention it if he was 'dirty'. They have brains, unlike Hillary's handlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

I'm not sure Obama has much to hide, but we'll sure find out soon enough. The people he surrounds himself with are going to get a much closer look than they possibly would have before due to the current administration and the way it does (and is for)business.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

Sore loser, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

Sorry. The post that the 'sore loser' remark was addressed to has gone by-by.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

You can't be a contender for the Presidency without knowledge of influence peddling. You can't get elected if you don't tell people what they want to hear. They want to hear about principles trumping influence peddling in the management of national affairs. It's a conundrum encased in irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

I will try once more.

Tell me, why would folks with lotsa cash give it to ANY party if they did so without hope of getting it back ten-fold?

As always, the real question is "Cui bono?" The answer? Not poor people.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:36 PM

What the hell is going on here?
Ebbie calls Guest a scumbag and Guest gets her post deleted.
Nothin' makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

I was wondering what you would think if you saw that, ake. But you did. Deleted for quoting "First They Came" by Niemoller? (I don't think "scumbag" was directed at the guest, though.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

"Tell me, why would folks with lotsa cash give it to ANY party if they did so without hope of getting it back ten-fold?"

As far as I'm concerned it's a pretty narrow view to try to get someone elected on the basis of what is best for you and yours as individuals. I guess the idea that we should be voting for the good of the nation is naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Quid Pro Quo

A Latin phrase meaning "something for something". This term is typically used in financial circles to describe a mutual agreement between two parties in which each party provides a good or service in return for a good or service.

Courtesy of Investopedia - A Forbes media company

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

oh, I guess it was (so directed.)

on "spin," we can say he received loans from Countrywide, or we can say he "took at least five real estate loans totaling more than $7 million from Countrywide Financial Corp. through an informal program for friends of the company's CEO, Angelo Mozilo," at apparently below-market rates.

not that I'm making a big deal about it. Still not a scandal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

"As far as I'm concerned it's a pretty narrow view to try to get someone elected on the basis of what is best for you and yours as individuals."

I agree. So why does it happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

Perhaps it is as some have surmised, that the rich only care about getting richer, to hell with the consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:37 PM

Same reason as 'NIMBY' occurs, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

I did not call Guest/Fantasma a scumbag, Ake. I referred to this statement she made: "The dude he picked to head up his veep vetters committee is a MN slimeball."

This 'dude' is one of many Minnesota people she has designated as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:36 AM

Sorry Ebbie, I thought for a moment you were trying to be sarcastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:45 AM

I rarely have to try. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

Lies, spin and talking points. Anyone want to discuss censorship?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Censorship allows us to sing together in harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:59 AM

"Censorship allows us to sing together in harmony."

Are you sure you don't mean in unison?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

Unfortunately, we will all be singing the same note.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM

Well, it's a point to think about. IF we sing a C octaves apart, would that be harmony? And who will voluntarily slam his goolies in a drawer to hit that C above high C on a piano?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

Guys, let's take it off this thread and allow it to return to its course.

Sorry, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

I don't mind, Peace. As events develop, it will probably swing back.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:13 AM

Well, there were four posts deleted from this thread (of which I am aware). They were an exchange between a Guest and me wondering why Fantasma was being 'disappeared'. It felt so much like Argentina in the old Junta days.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

All these deleted posts bug the hell out of me. I disagree with Fantsy as much as anyone, but she gives me a laugh almost as regularly as she makes my blood boil, and if I wasn't prepared to read unpleasant exchanges, I wouldn't venture down here to BS-land at all, anyway.

Mainly, I am often initially confused, and subsequently confounded, when I read posts that are reponses to prior messages that are no longer there. It disturbs my reading experience!

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Sharpless
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

But there is the chastity of the Mudcat record, which the moderators present here are always considering.

Despite the arguments you people are making to defend Internet freedom of speech, you must remember, the network admin here is a former security expert. This leads to a certain affection for intrigue and manipulation, but it was you all signed on for when you applauded all the efforts put forth thus far to censor and banish those posters who made you feel uncomfortable.

I think it was (Republican appointed) Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart who said something along the lines of censorship reflecting society's lack of confidence in itself. He also said it was the hallmark of an authoritarian regime.

Moderation of this forum has always been authoritarian, and the network admin very heavy handed in his judgment of what should and should not be "allowed". Few of you protested when he was put in charge, though some warned of the slippery slope towards censorship we now find ourselves at the bottom of with the latest round of it.

It is quite obvious that people do truly fear challenging the way the forum is being moderated. They fear being shunned, or getting on the network admin's "bad side", because that means they are at risk of censorship themselves.

That's what makes authoritarian rule so damn successful. You people not only wanted it, you demanded it. Now you have it in spades, and you complain when the moderator regime comes after you?

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:29 PM

Oh, yes. Joe Offer is a fearsome creature.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"That's what makes authoritarian rule so damn successful. You people not only wanted it, you demanded it. Now you have it in spades, and you complain when the moderator regime comes after you? "

I ain't complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

So, what will receive the next deletion? See if there is a pattern where only certain people get targeted.Be the first on YOUR block to be disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Sharpless
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

Yes, you are complaining.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going to get deleted by Mr. Offer. He is a devout Catholic, politically on the right of the Democratic party spectrum in the US, hates Nader (see his current post on the Nader thread, for example) because he blames him for Bush/Cheney apparently, is pretty keen on Obama, hates being mocked, and won't stand for any challenges to his authority.

Steer your course here taking the above into account, and you won't have any problems here.

What makes it dicier than usual, is the unprecedented level of political censorship going on right now. I don't know what to say about that, except what I said in my previous post. Anyone who isn't pro-Democratic party and pro-Obama this year is bound to have a tough time discussing politics in this forum. So go somewhere else if you don't like that. You will be happier, and will make the majority of Mudcatters feel far more comfortable. Many regulars here dislike having their group consensus and personal opinions challenged, and their feathers ruffled in any manner. So don't do it.

I've been a lurker here for years. The unspoken rule of law for as long as I can remember has been "go along to get along with us, or get out". Any poster who challenges that rule quickly gets targeted, and inevitably gets booted. It really is that simple. You want to make waves or be provocative? Find another home on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

I disagree with that. But then my assessment of Joe is different than yours.

As to unspoken rules, etc., "Any poster who challenges that rule quickly gets targeted, and inevitably gets booted", I disagree. I have challenged many of the rules here and here I am.

I also disagree that there are political 'targets' as you put it. Threads that are pro-McCain won't last because people who post to it against McCain vastly outnumber those who support McCain. (As yet I haven't heard/read anyone supporting McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

) However, thank you for your concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

Noam Chomsky states that:

"If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."
Source: In Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, 1992
"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM

"As yet I haven't heard/read anyone supporting McCain. "

You need to listen more.


I do not consider McCain perfect- just better ( IMO, for the country) than Obama.

I lost a long post that stated that there are people here that do not agree withg the mainstream, and are not prevented from posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

But if only popular ideas were protected, we wouldn't need a First Amendment. History teaches that the first target of government repression is never the last. If we do not come to the defense of the free speech rights of the most unpopular among us, even if their views are antithetical to the very freedom the First Amendment stands for, then no one's liberty will be secure. In that sense, all First Amendment rights are "indivisible."

Censoring so-called hate speech also runs counter to the long-term interests of the most frequent victims of hate: racial, ethnic, religious and sexual minorities. We should not give the government the power to decide which opinions are hateful, for history has taught us that government is more apt to use this power to prosecute minorities than to protect them. As one federal judge has put it, tolerating hateful speech is "the best protection we have against any Nazi-type regime in this country."

At the same time, freedom of speech does not prevent punishing conduct that intimidates, harasses, or threatens another person, even if words are used. Threatening phone calls, for example, are not constitutionally protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

"I have challenged many of the rules here and here I am."

NB: I didn't always win, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,I like it this way
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

I agree with the sentiment that the Mudcat is governed by Joe Offer, owned by Max.

The point of this forum isn't freedom of speech or protecting the right to express a dissenting opinion. It is folk music, with a little of this and a little of that to spice it up.

Folk here agree, even majority opinion doesn't rule. Joe does. He, and he alone has the right to make decisions keeping this place the wonderful place it is--free of flame wars. Sure, it is the Homeland Security mentality, but it is our little folkie homeland, and we all want it to be kept safe and secure, like it is now. Joe and the clones do that for us. Most of us like it this way.

Put me down as a don't rock the boat, loving the Mudcat status quo vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:58 PM

Uh huh. However, all I was wondering is why a Guest poster who used a consistent name was 'disappeared'. However, I also wonder why regular members post as Guests and get away with it. (No offense to you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

"Moderation of this forum has always been authoritarian, and the network admin very heavy handed in his judgment of what should and should not be "allowed". Few of you protested when he was put in charge, though some warned of the slippery slope towards censorship we now find ourselves at the bottom of with the latest round of it."


Few of us were even here before Joe was in charge, and the claim that he has a history of heavy handed moderation is laughable in the extreme.

It took eight years of non stop badgering by a member who sounded remarkably like you, before anyone was invited to leave the building.

So if you are starting your own anti Offer campaign, you've a bloody long way to go.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

I like Joe well enough, but then our opinions are generally similar. Not identical ~ for one thing, I am very decidedly an ex-Catholic while Joe is still a proud and happy member ~ but roughly the same.

But I don't agree with many instances of censorship on Mudcat. I don't consider it particularly excessive or onerous, but none at all would be my preference. I consider this exercise to be primarily an exchange of ideas, don't take anything personally, and don't intend anyone else to take my pronoucnements personally.

However, I realize that many others DO get personally involved, to the point of seriously hurt feelings, etc. I don't really understand it, but I grudgingly recognize that such feelings deserve consideration.

Am I "getting what I deserve" because I "allowed" the present regime to gain control? Hell no! By the time I joined up, the powers-that-be were already in place. But I do accept things the way they are, with the reservation that I can and will complain when I have differences (like here and now).

We have a smallish but sufficiently vocal number of members who are true conservatives and/or Republicans, and they seem to be allowed to express themselves at will. The cases of censorship on these political matters of which I am aware involve characters with fairly obscure and unusual agendas (e.g., pro-Nader/OK-with-Hilary/anti-Obama) who express themselves with a bit of vitriol.

I'd prefer to be allowed to read everything and form my own opinion, but I can live with the current fairly-modest level of thought control. It's more benign than what's happening out in the real world, believe it or not.

Another caveat: I don't know, nor do any of us, how things would be hereabouts if there were no controls, and everything anyone submitted was posted. Might not be pretty ~ I've seen some forums (e.g., at local newspaper sites) where the ignorant and mean-spirited seem to crowd everybody else out.

By the way: No one should be surprised that members of a folk-music forum, American members anyway, would be further "left" as a group than the general population. Much of the emerging interest in folk music in this country that occurred about a generation ago was deeply involved with political causes and movements for social change, peace and freedom, etc. Not everyone "got here" by that route, of course, but many of us, perhaps most of us, did.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,ILITW
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

Moderation here is heavy handed to deal with the likes of Gargoyle and Martin Gibson, and has nothing to do with politics.

Most agree that is A Good Thing.

If that means no Nader, so be it. And no Clinton, all the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

"I also wonder why regular members post as Guests and get away with it."

I think that the option to be occasionally anonymous is a good thing. I haven't done so very often, but I've gone that route twice in just the last week, and another time earlier this month, each time for a different, valid, personal reason. Before that, it had probably been years since I last pretended to be a "GUEST."

In other words, if I had been obligated to reveal my identity (even my pseudonymous identity), I would not have made those particular thoughts public at all. And we'd all be the poorer for it! [sic]

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM

I often post in Guest mode simply because I'm not on the home compooper for most of the time. I'd hate to lose the priviledge because someone thought that was wrong. I'm the same person, Guest or no guest in front of the moniker.
I think some of them "get disappeared" not from expressing their points of view, but because of an excess of vitriol and heat about their point of view. Also because they apparently have the time and the will to try to dominate the thread and will carry on flame wars within and without the thread.
All of this having nothing to do with this thread of course.

To bring it back in line, I noticed a politician doing exactly this same thing, diverting from the question asked to answer a question that hadn't been asked so that he could pound one of the two candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

You can log in as yourself even from a different computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

I could, but where I work might have a problem with the 'Cat due to some of the more extreme positions of the posters. I'm not sure what having the cookie on the compooper here might result in.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,ILITW
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Most music sites won't allow off-topic posting, and that is the best means of controlling the riff raff.

Why it was allowed in here, I'll never know. Having off topic, BS, whatever was once pretty controversial here. The buy off was the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,ILITW
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

I meant to add, IMO there would be no need for moderation if off-topic posting wasn't allowed. The more BS was tolerated (some would say encouraged), the more people howled for moderation of the forum.

So now, you get what you begged for, the worst of both worlds.

I often have wondered over the years if the BS section isn't the main reason this site still exists as a music site at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Take a look, GUEST,ILITW, and you'll notice that the music section is thriving. Remember back in the days before the BS section was instated that the complaint was that it was hard to find legitmate musical threads because it was thought that most of the threads were non-music? One would never make that complaint today- almost always the music 'half' is longer than the BS.

I like the Mudcat. I like most of the people. I like Joe Offer- if anyone thinks they would do a better job than he does I think they are sadly deluded.

Joe is a devout Catholic - I think - but unless it is appropriate he doesn't bring up the subject of religion. The man loves music and he loves helping people. That is why he is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM

Joe and I have had about a half dozen major back and forths over the years. He's a really good guy. Just because I don't agree with him on this or that has got NOTHING to do with the way I view him. He's a fine man and a guy who loves music. That said, not all deletions are made by him. I opine that clones delete more stuff than Joe does.


"I meant to add, IMO there would be no need for moderation if off-topic posting wasn't allowed."

IMO, there would be less need for moderation if Guest posting wasn't allowed. (No offense.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

I happen to like the BS section! Since I never have the time/money to attend some of these events it's kind of like having a watering hole 'round which we all gather to trade stories and find out what others acutally think of whats going on. Sometimes i feel validated. Other times I get a different point of view that opens my eyes. It is inspiring and has lead to at least a few "new" folk songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

I like the 'Cat too, and I like the BS section. I often find it inspiring. I think the place would be exceeding dry and uninteresting without its humor and affectionate ribaldry, none of which would happen with the "off topic" police running through these hallowed halls. Hell, one of the reason some of us fell in love with folk music in the first place is that it was off-topic!!

Let's keep the fertilizer around. It maketh the plants to grow.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

Here's my buddy talking bullshit and he's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,ILITW
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:04 PM

Some people favored both no guest posting and no BS.

I was one of them, but we were a small minority.

Implementing heavy handed moderation to control posters' bad behavior was also controversial. Many good folk drifted away over time, for a lot of reasons as a result of all the contentiousness over those issues. Some didn't like guests, some didn't like the childish behavior a lot of people (many members included) were engaging in, some didn't like the BS.

But mostly, people fed up with fighting and flame wars just quietly slipped out. Haven't really seen many of them come back.

The BS section is very well tamed now, and some think that is just fine.

Count me among them.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:06 PM

"it's kind of like having a watering hole 'round which we all gather to trade stories and find out what others acutally think of whats going on."

Every now and then I come across a typo, and I think "That word doesn't exist, BUT IT SHOULD".

Finding out what the others ACUTALLY think is one such, since so many of us here tend to both think and speak Acutally.

Thanks Chief Chaos for enhancing the English language, however accidentally. I am acutally impressed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:56 PM

Well, getting back to spin then, Johnson "left" the VP vetting team. Either Obama let him "step down," or Obama has no control. If Obama let him step down when there was nothing to be ashamed of, Obama did not stand up for principle, or for his "friends."

http://www.slate.com/id/2193445/

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM

I think that it's mutual, only because of what happens in one's own life. If someone who is helping on a project starts drawing heat from ignorant, mouthy louts (Not you, heric) out there who grab an angle iron and jump on any kind of controversy and bellow for apology or abandonment the helper and the helpee may well decide to see if they can shut them up. And then when the person does allow the helper to step down, those louts are the first to talk about having 'thrown them under the bus'.

Ya cain't win.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:13 PM

I agree that you and I can't win. But Obama can. And MCain can. And their loyalists can. And their loyalists' friends can. And I don't believe in a self-made President. I think the system is as bad as Little Hawk claims (without all the Roman and Nazi stuff.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM

I'm resurrecting this because I need somewhere to go with this:

People - friends, family, people I care about- keep sending me political material, that to put it mildly, I don't agree with and I believe they are very aware of it. Believe it or not, I have restrained myself to the point that, other than an occasional link to www.snopes.com I have not attempted to refute it.

Today someone sent me a long set of cartoons lauding Sarah Palin in panel after panel as something between Pioneer Mother to Wonder Woman. It is insane and denotes nothing more than their complete ignorance of the issues and the personalities.

I think that I'm about to change my tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

McCain's economic advisor Phil Gramm illegally put a 236 page bill into another bill that was voted on without debate.

IT contained the removal of all regulations oversight and safegurads to allow companies like Countrywide (now Banc of America) to do what they did under the banner of sub prime lending.

IT became law and we know the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:16 PM

I would, Ebbie. Unless you can just force yourself to delete without even looking at it, I'd let them know it's not welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

Ebbie:

Do not be silent.

There is too much at stake.

BE as courteous as you can; keep to the facts and definitions. But don't be passive.

My 2 cents, for what it may be worth.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:47 PM

Obama has delivered a series of economic speeches over the last year-and-a-half on the campaign trail, and he recapped some of his top proposals here on Tuesday. But the core of his argument was against Sen. John McCain, who has a long record of promoting deregulation and who has repeatedly said the fundamentals of the economy are strong.

Obama poked fun at McCain for proposing a commission to examine the crisis, calling that "the oldest Washington stunt in the book."

"This isn't 9/11. We know how we got into this mess," Obama said. "What we need now is leadership that gets us out. I'll provide it, John McCain won't, and that's the choice for the American people in this election."

Obama also pointed to a history of Democratic presidents, from Franklin Roosevelt to Bill Clinton, who commanded the country through rough financial waters. And he hammered McCain repeatedly -- for failing, he said, to grasp the root of the problems and for only belatedly deciding that greater regulation is needed.

"John McCain has spent decades in Washington supporting financial institutions instead of their customers," Obama told a crowd of about 2,100 at the Colorado School of Mines.

"In fact, one of the biggest proponents of deregulation in the financial sector is Phil Gramm -- the same man who helped write John McCain's economic plan," Obama continued. He said Gramm is "the same man who said that we're going through a 'mental recession,' and the same man who called the United States of America a 'nation of whiners.'"

"So it's hard to understand how Senator McCain is going to get us out of this crisis by doing the same things with the same old players," Obama said.

Obama, appearing in the same town that Gov. Sarah Palin visited a day earlier, drew an enthusiastic response -- with supporters cheering even some of his more wonkish lines. As he wrapped up his speech, Obama's advisers embraced two apparent gaffes by their rivals -- economic adviser Doug Holt-Eakin's claim that McCain had created the BlackBerry, and former Hewlett Packard CEO Carly Fiorina's admission that neither Palin nor McCain would be qualified to run a major corporation.

Still, Obama took a subdued approach, far from the fiery manner that McCain displayed on the campaign trail when discussing the same topic. And he placed renewed emphasis on his history of reform, citing his efforts to ban lobbyists' gifts to legislators in Springfield, Ill., as a state senator and his subsequent work in the U.S. Senate -- a seeming counterpunch to Palin's frequent references in her stump speech to her work shaking up the Alaska establishment.

... WaPo

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

This morning I made my first overt effort to tell them: Wake up, dannit! 'I sent a former sister in law the article that Kendall posted this morning, comparing the lives and career interests and histories of Obama and Palin. Very striking.

I haven't yet heard back from her but she tends to be fair minded; I would/will be greatly disappointed if she blows it off.

Another sister in law, however, has said "Yes, Republican all the way!"

All this time - we're talking about more than 8 years here! they have known that I do not agree with them and why, but I have never yelled at them or even spent 10 minutes forcefully arguing my position. Mainly because it's not going to change anything. My ex is down there too and in the thick of it. Dang, I'm glad I'm not married to him any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM

Me,. too , Eb!! You're much more fun without him, I am sure...


;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:47 PM

Me, three, Ebbie! Good for you for letting your ex-sister-in-law know more, though...maybe she'll see the light. Palin has dropped 10% in her favourable ratings since the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:02 AM

Yes guest it is real life issues that create the songs of yesteryear today and tommorrow.
That some chose to call it BS is unfortunate.
Ideas are the driving force. Guns kill people but they do not kill ideas.

I post a dozen or more songs and lyrics per year in the BS section for anyone to expand upon. There may even have been a couple great and timeless gems, but like a person who kicks a stone down the path, its is unlikely they will pick it up, look inside and find a breathtaking opal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

Ebbie, I have people who send me that stuff, too, and if it is debunked in Snopes, I email back with the link to the Snopes page showing the facts.
For some, I've learned to just delete without even reading it, but it is annoying that they send it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

In defense of BS
99% of original posts are cute pedestrian crap, but the 1 gem, ahh, it makes it all worthwhile.
Chronicling the work of others and linking to events is also a noble and painstaking contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

A modest proposal. Change the laws that protect candidates from Libel and slander suits. Might make for saner campaigns.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Why should we legally force people to not reveal their true character?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

Alice, that is precisely what I do too. Some of the stuff is appallingly bad. If Snopes has it, I send the link, without comment, other than a "Sorry".

One reason I have not made an effort to shut them down - other than that these are people I care about - is that it informs me as to what the fundamentalists are feeling and saying.

No response yet from my former sis in law. I hope they are sending it to each other in consternation. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:52 PM

Well. Here is my "answer". I could spit nails. (No url is attached because it seems only to be traveling by email- that's all I could find. However, I did check some of the links given at the foot - was NOT able to verify these figures. No wonder these people are against Obama.)

2008 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE COMPARISON TALKING POINTS ISSUE        
                                    JOHN McCAIN         BARAK OBAMA
Favors new drilling offshore US         Yes                   No
Will appoint judges who interpret the law not make it         Yes         No
Served in the US Armed Forces                Yes                         No
Amount of time served in the US Senate         22 YEARS            173 DAYS
Will institute a socialized national health care plan         No         Yes
Supports abortion throughout the pregnancy         No                Yes
Would pull troops out of Iraq immediately         No                Yes
Supports gun ownership rights                         Yes                No
Supports homosexual marriage                         No                Yes
Proposed programs will mean a huge tax increase No                Yes
Voted against making English the official language         No         Yes
Voted to give Social Security benefits to illegals         No         Yes
CAPITAL GAINS TAX
MCCAIN         0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples).
* McCain does not propose any change in existing home sales income tax.
* OBAMA 28% on profit from ALL home sales. (How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.)

DIVIDEND TAX
MCCAIN         15% (no change)
OBAMA         39.6% - (How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama becomes president. The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market, yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.')

INCOME TAX
* MCCAIN (no changes)         
Single making 30K - tax $4,500 Single making 50K - tax $12,500 Single making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 60K- tax $9,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

* OBAMA (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)         
Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Under Obama, your taxes could almost double!

INHERITANCE TAX
* MCCAIN         - 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)
* OBAMA         Restore the inheritance tax Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones will only lose them to these taxes.

NEW TAXES PROPOSED BY OBAMA
- New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet.
- New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already)
- New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity)
- New taxes on retirement accounts, and last but not least....
- New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries!!!
                          
You can verify the above at the following web sites: http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/election/2008/index.html http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.taxes.html http://elections.foxnews.com/?s=proposed+taxes http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/politics/articles/mccain_obama_offer_different_visions_on_taxes.html http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/barack_obama/ http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/john_mccain/

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM

Did you see that they are saying Obama served 173 days? Recently, a man told me in all seriousness that Obama started campaigning for the presidency when he'd been in the US Senate just "120 days".

McCain, in contrast, they say, has served a vast amount of time.

                                           John McCain Barack Obama
Amount of time served in the US Senate    22 YEARS      173 DAYS

What kind of measuring stick are they using? I suppose it has to do with x number of working days but I can't make it come out in any kind of coherence.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

That's one of the most virulent distortive pieces of horse pucky I have seen in a while; straight "swiftboat" merchandizing.

Their facts are hugely off base, or completely false.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

The idea that McCain is immune from taking money from the Keating 5 bailout and his
endorsement of Phil "Whiner" Gramm makes this point that Tucker Bounds make laughable.

Gramm and McCain are major players in the current economic crisis bailing out corporate CEO's and if elected, McCain would only introduce a cosmetic solution by a regulatory agency that leads to nowhere. We've seen what Bush has done to regulatory agencies and McClone
would do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Alice
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM

Then in 173 days, Obama was amazingly productive:

Barack Obama has introduced nearly 300 bills during his time in the U.S. Senate, and cosponsored close to 1,000 others. To see his legislative efforts, search the 109th Congress at http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d109query.html and 110th Congress at http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d110query.html

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:25 PM

The scurrilous, slanderous, false email makes me too mad to even respond to, frankly. Since it does not seem to originate from any kind of 'responsible' source, I expect it is some individual person's (or group's) effort to slime the waters. But if it is in print, there are people out there who will believe it. I seem to know them all. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

Don't look at the man behind the curtain.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:16 PM

From an email going out under John Kerry's name:

"Today's Republican Party is so depraved that they're running ads in Florida trying to connect a Democratic candidate to 9/11 attacker Mohammed Atta. They're in North Carolina attacking Democratic Senate candidate Kay Hagan's faith and character. And in Colorado, Democratic Senate candidate Mark Udall is the target of a GOP robocall campaign making the insane accusation that he supports human cloning."

Any comment?