BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues

Subject: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM

Here and elsewhere I'm interested in discussions of nominees' issues.

For instance, today The Wall Street Journal reported that Jim Johnson, one of the two men that Obama chose to explore vice presidential figures, had received loans from Countrywide Financial Corp. with the help of the firm's chief executive, Angelo Mozilo.

Obama's campaign suggested its surrogates call the story "overblown and irrelevant."

"But Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee-in-waiting, jumped in quickly.

"There is nothing 'overblown and irrelevant' about millions of Americans facing foreclosure and Barack Obama entrusting his most important decision as a presidential candidate to a man who has accepted millions in special loans from a subprime mortgage lender," said Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for the Republican presidential contender.

June 9 News

But isn't John McCain himself most vulnerable on an issue such as this? And in his case it was not a friend of his but he himself at the age of 51. People have not forgotten the Keating Five corruption scandal which was the biggest thing in the news for a considerable period of time. It is true that he was not tried and convicted as several of his compadres were but he and John Glenn were both chided for using poor judgment.


Snippets from another site:

"The Lincoln bailout cost taxpayers $2.6 billion, making it the biggest of the S&L scandals. In addition, 17,000 Lincoln investors lost $190 million."

"After McCain's election to the House in 1982, he and his family made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, three of which were to Keating's Bahamas retreat. McCain did not disclose the trips (as he was required to under House rules) until the scandal broke in 1989. At that point, he paid Keating $13,433 for the flights."

One of Many Keating Stories

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:07 PM

Heck, my mortgage is from Countrywide. Second time I've borrowed from them, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:12 PM

Ours it, too, Rapaire, though it is our first.

Ebbie, I hope a lot of folks will remember McCain and the Keating 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:20 PM

I mean, I had a mortgage from them on the condo in Kentucky. That was paid off when we sold it and we have the current mortgage from them. Lots of people have borrowed from Countrywide; it's one of the biggest lenders in the US -- and it did not focus on "sub-prime" borrowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:30 PM

Countrywide is not a "subprime" lender.

Most mtg companies in recent years offered subprime packages to people who really couldn't afford to buy houses, thus the problems they're all in now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

Bogus argument. McCain's involvement in Keating 5 doesn't negate the charges against Obama.

The dude he picked to head up his veep vetters committee is a MN slimeball.

Obama also went after Clinton for HER connections to Countrywide.

What's good for the goose, as they say.

Just because he is your guy don't mean he ain't on the wrong side of plenty of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

When it comes to recent borrowing irregularities McCain is no one to point any fingers...

Just last fall McCain borrowed money to keep his campaign afloat and guess what he used as collaterial??? Well, seems that he pledged his future federal public campiagn funds and then before the loan was even paid back was making noise about backing out of using those funds???

Now there isn't any particualr smoking gun here but there's sho nuff some funny business going on???

And what makes this all more interesting is that his wife is worth millions and millions???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

Does it not strike people that folks are investing in would-be Presidents because they freakin' well expect to get their investments back with lotsa interest?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

...Jim Johnson... had received loans from Countrywide Financial Corp....

I once had long distance service through MCI. Does that somehow establish a connection between me and Bernie Ebbers?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

For shame, BWL. For shame. *g*

There are no charges against Obama, Fantasyweaver. Perhaps you should read more carefully.


It appears to me that far from being the pristine state I thought of it as being, Minnesota is just crawling with scumbags. Must be the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM

The crux of the matter is the hypocracy in both camps.
It was a big deal when Clinton & Gore smoked weed but for GWB being a recovered alcoholic and possibly using cocaine was "none of our business". The same pretty much happened for Al Gore and John Kerry with various parties raising a ruckus about their actual service while actual records of GWB's service are MIA (and we all know Cheney had different pans for his life).

I'm not trying to single out the Republicans in this, it happens on both sides (and all parties). I guess it's all in what you want to believe about a person to justify your positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Just goes to show that Obama has nothin' to hide about it. His handlers would not have allowed him to mention it if he was 'dirty'. They have brains, unlike Hillary's handlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

I'm not sure Obama has much to hide, but we'll sure find out soon enough. The people he surrounds himself with are going to get a much closer look than they possibly would have before due to the current administration and the way it does (and is for)business.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

Sore loser, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

Sorry. The post that the 'sore loser' remark was addressed to has gone by-by.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

You can't be a contender for the Presidency without knowledge of influence peddling. You can't get elected if you don't tell people what they want to hear. They want to hear about principles trumping influence peddling in the management of national affairs. It's a conundrum encased in irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

I will try once more.

Tell me, why would folks with lotsa cash give it to ANY party if they did so without hope of getting it back ten-fold?

As always, the real question is "Cui bono?" The answer? Not poor people.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:36 PM

What the hell is going on here?
Ebbie calls Guest a scumbag and Guest gets her post deleted.
Nothin' makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

I was wondering what you would think if you saw that, ake. But you did. Deleted for quoting "First They Came" by Niemoller? (I don't think "scumbag" was directed at the guest, though.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

"Tell me, why would folks with lotsa cash give it to ANY party if they did so without hope of getting it back ten-fold?"

As far as I'm concerned it's a pretty narrow view to try to get someone elected on the basis of what is best for you and yours as individuals. I guess the idea that we should be voting for the good of the nation is naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Quid Pro Quo

A Latin phrase meaning "something for something". This term is typically used in financial circles to describe a mutual agreement between two parties in which each party provides a good or service in return for a good or service.

Courtesy of Investopedia - A Forbes media company

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

oh, I guess it was (so directed.)

on "spin," we can say he received loans from Countrywide, or we can say he "took at least five real estate loans totaling more than $7 million from Countrywide Financial Corp. through an informal program for friends of the company's CEO, Angelo Mozilo," at apparently below-market rates.

not that I'm making a big deal about it. Still not a scandal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

"As far as I'm concerned it's a pretty narrow view to try to get someone elected on the basis of what is best for you and yours as individuals."

I agree. So why does it happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

Perhaps it is as some have surmised, that the rich only care about getting richer, to hell with the consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:37 PM

Same reason as 'NIMBY' occurs, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

I did not call Guest/Fantasma a scumbag, Ake. I referred to this statement she made: "The dude he picked to head up his veep vetters committee is a MN slimeball."

This 'dude' is one of many Minnesota people she has designated as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:36 AM

Sorry Ebbie, I thought for a moment you were trying to be sarcastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:45 AM

I rarely have to try. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

Lies, spin and talking points. Anyone want to discuss censorship?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: heric
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Censorship allows us to sing together in harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:59 AM

"Censorship allows us to sing together in harmony."

Are you sure you don't mean in unison?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

Unfortunately, we will all be singing the same note.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM

Well, it's a point to think about. IF we sing a C octaves apart, would that be harmony? And who will voluntarily slam his goolies in a drawer to hit that C above high C on a piano?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

Guys, let's take it off this thread and allow it to return to its course.

Sorry, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

I don't mind, Peace. As events develop, it will probably swing back.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:13 AM

Well, there were four posts deleted from this thread (of which I am aware). They were an exchange between a Guest and me wondering why Fantasma was being 'disappeared'. It felt so much like Argentina in the old Junta days.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

All these deleted posts bug the hell out of me. I disagree with Fantsy as much as anyone, but she gives me a laugh almost as regularly as she makes my blood boil, and if I wasn't prepared to read unpleasant exchanges, I wouldn't venture down here to BS-land at all, anyway.

Mainly, I am often initially confused, and subsequently confounded, when I read posts that are reponses to prior messages that are no longer there. It disturbs my reading experience!

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Sharpless
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

But there is the chastity of the Mudcat record, which the moderators present here are always considering.

Despite the arguments you people are making to defend Internet freedom of speech, you must remember, the network admin here is a former security expert. This leads to a certain affection for intrigue and manipulation, but it was you all signed on for when you applauded all the efforts put forth thus far to censor and banish those posters who made you feel uncomfortable.

I think it was (Republican appointed) Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart who said something along the lines of censorship reflecting society's lack of confidence in itself. He also said it was the hallmark of an authoritarian regime.

Moderation of this forum has always been authoritarian, and the network admin very heavy handed in his judgment of what should and should not be "allowed". Few of you protested when he was put in charge, though some warned of the slippery slope towards censorship we now find ourselves at the bottom of with the latest round of it.

It is quite obvious that people do truly fear challenging the way the forum is being moderated. They fear being shunned, or getting on the network admin's "bad side", because that means they are at risk of censorship themselves.

That's what makes authoritarian rule so damn successful. You people not only wanted it, you demanded it. Now you have it in spades, and you complain when the moderator regime comes after you?

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:29 PM

Oh, yes. Joe Offer is a fearsome creature.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"That's what makes authoritarian rule so damn successful. You people not only wanted it, you demanded it. Now you have it in spades, and you complain when the moderator regime comes after you? "

I ain't complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

So, what will receive the next deletion? See if there is a pattern where only certain people get targeted.Be the first on YOUR block to be disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,Sharpless
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

Yes, you are complaining.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going to get deleted by Mr. Offer. He is a devout Catholic, politically on the right of the Democratic party spectrum in the US, hates Nader (see his current post on the Nader thread, for example) because he blames him for Bush/Cheney apparently, is pretty keen on Obama, hates being mocked, and won't stand for any challenges to his authority.

Steer your course here taking the above into account, and you won't have any problems here.

What makes it dicier than usual, is the unprecedented level of political censorship going on right now. I don't know what to say about that, except what I said in my previous post. Anyone who isn't pro-Democratic party and pro-Obama this year is bound to have a tough time discussing politics in this forum. So go somewhere else if you don't like that. You will be happier, and will make the majority of Mudcatters feel far more comfortable. Many regulars here dislike having their group consensus and personal opinions challenged, and their feathers ruffled in any manner. So don't do it.

I've been a lurker here for years. The unspoken rule of law for as long as I can remember has been "go along to get along with us, or get out". Any poster who challenges that rule quickly gets targeted, and inevitably gets booted. It really is that simple. You want to make waves or be provocative? Find another home on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

I disagree with that. But then my assessment of Joe is different than yours.

As to unspoken rules, etc., "Any poster who challenges that rule quickly gets targeted, and inevitably gets booted", I disagree. I have challenged many of the rules here and here I am.

I also disagree that there are political 'targets' as you put it. Threads that are pro-McCain won't last because people who post to it against McCain vastly outnumber those who support McCain. (As yet I haven't heard/read anyone supporting McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

) However, thank you for your concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

Noam Chomsky states that:

"If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."
Source: In Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, 1992
"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM

"As yet I haven't heard/read anyone supporting McCain. "

You need to listen more.


I do not consider McCain perfect- just better ( IMO, for the country) than Obama.

I lost a long post that stated that there are people here that do not agree withg the mainstream, and are not prevented from posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

But if only popular ideas were protected, we wouldn't need a First Amendment. History teaches that the first target of government repression is never the last. If we do not come to the defense of the free speech rights of the most unpopular among us, even if their views are antithetical to the very freedom the First Amendment stands for, then no one's liberty will be secure. In that sense, all First Amendment rights are "indivisible."

Censoring so-called hate speech also runs counter to the long-term interests of the most frequent victims of hate: racial, ethnic, religious and sexual minorities. We should not give the government the power to decide which opinions are hateful, for history has taught us that government is more apt to use this power to prosecute minorities than to protect them. As one federal judge has put it, tolerating hateful speech is "the best protection we have against any Nazi-type regime in this country."

At the same time, freedom of speech does not prevent punishing conduct that intimidates, harasses, or threatens another person, even if words are used. Threatening phone calls, for example, are not constitutionally protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

"I have challenged many of the rules here and here I am."

NB: I didn't always win, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: GUEST,I like it this way
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

I agree with the sentiment that the Mudcat is governed by Joe Offer, owned by Max.

The point of this forum isn't freedom of speech or protecting the right to express a dissenting opinion. It is folk music, with a little of this and a little of that to spice it up.

Folk here agree, even majority opinion doesn't rule. Joe does. He, and he alone has the right to make decisions keeping this place the wonderful place it is--free of flame wars. Sure, it is the Homeland Security mentality, but it is our little folkie homeland, and we all want it to be kept safe and secure, like it is now. Joe and the clones do that for us. Most of us like it this way.

Put me down as a don't rock the boat, loving the Mudcat status quo vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Spin, Talking Points, Issues
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:58 PM

Uh huh. However, all I was wondering is why a Guest poster who used a consistent name was 'disappeared'. However, I also wonder why regular members post as Guests and get away with it. (No offense to you.)