BS: david davis - what's that about?

Subject: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 12:55 PM

I always figured DD was politically just slightly to the right of Benito Mussolini. The sort of bloke who listens to Andrew Lloyd Webber and would bring back the birch for not having a straight parting and a clean handkerchief in your pocket .

Now it seems, he is resigning to protect our free way of life.

Or does he just want to kick Cameron in the goolies for winning the party leadership?

Both noble aims.......

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:42 PM

I don't get it either.
No one thinks it will ever become law anyway.
I wish someone would make such a stand about EU, referenda, fishing,French farmers, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

Perhaps DD knows something we don't ... something so scary that it even scares a Tory ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

It is plainly an attempt to drive the conservatives towards the libertarian right. I believe the USA has loonies like that too.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

He's an egomaniac and it's a publicity stunt.

When he wins back his seat he will stand up on a soap box, puff up his chest and proclaim it as further proof of Gordon Browns popularity.

Smoke and mirrors.

All he needs is a top hat, a cane, a cape, and stripy trousers going up to his chest topped off by a mini waistcoat.

It's a weird attempt to keep the tory momentum going.

It is of course completely insubstantive and the British public, dumb as they can be won'y be particularly impressed.

It will give hm a chance to stick his head a bit higher than the other tories who all want to be seen presideing over their recent change of fortunes.

As I said, he's an egomaniac.


Watch - my prediction will come true!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:51 PM

I think you could be onto something Richard. Davis comes from a wing of the tories that cares about as much about personal freedoms as I do about the future of traditional folk music. He's a rabid tory - like Joseph and Thatcher, red in claw and radical. Eurosceptic, and right wing as they come.

Cameron has ben succeeding very nicely with more pragmatic and humane brand of toryism - and presumably - Davis is really pissed off about it - and so he has selected this little mound on which to stand and organise resistance.

Funny thing politics.... Labour couldn't stand Blair who kept winning and the Tories don't seem to have much time for Cameron - who looked as though he was going to be very successful.

Well maybe I'm reading it wrong, and I misjudge the man. it would be interesting to hear from a tory.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:15 AM

Oh, I think he cares about the personal liberties for the rich to opress the poor - but if the poor organised against the rich he'd have the army out toot sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:51 AM

As usual there may well be a hidden agenda here and you and I will not be party to it. We may reap something from it as a result...good or bad...but time will tell. Ebven if the guy is ridiculed for his action (which Cameron has been careful not to do) something has to change...but what??????

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:55 AM

The man's a total tosser and it's just a publicity stunt, Lib-Dems are not going to stand so it's not like he would lose anyway. Labour are threatening not to stand so Davis can be number one in a field of one, and achieve absolutely fuck all but a great deal of expense to the public purse.

Tosser

eric

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:59 AM

Kelvin MacKenzie is going to stand against him, on a "lock the bastards up" ticket.
Davis may come unstuck.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:29 AM

well he's resigned now, so we'll have to see. But the schisms in the tory party must still be there.

I think he surely realises he looks and sounds like a complete tit. Dianne Abott was defending him to Nigel kennedy on the telly last night.

What taste that woman has!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:36 AM

Do any of our Hull members live in Haltemprice and Howden?

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:51 AM

Used to do a gig at the white Horse in Howden many moons ago. They could drink for Europe in that place.

At the last knockings, this old biddy used to come onstage (not sure there was a stage) and insist on singing the Pet clark song 'Sailor'.

sailor - stop your roaming
Sailor - leave the sea
Sailor - when tide turns
Come home safe to me!

now that's what I call a folksong.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:20 AM

The other point is that he is creating unnecessary admin cost for the taxpayer.

Elections cost money.

Unnecessary elections are a waste of money.

it's a calculated risk based on the high likelihood that he'll be reelected.

Someone ought to stand against him on a platform of misuse of public funds (to furnish ones public image)

As for dissent amongst the tories, I doubt it very much. They are a party known for their abaility to stick together and ut on a brave unied front whilst keeping their divisions well hidden.

This is more about a big public gloat over Gordon Brown and David Davis taking the credit.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:41 AM

"Do any of our Hull members live in Haltemprice and Howden?"

Yes, I do. I'm one of his reluctant constituents. I've met him once or twice and he's a very personable chap but he's the darling of the rich landowners and farmers who, themselves, on parish councils and in their general dealings, can hardly be said to be concerned about the civil liberties of anyone but themselves.

Davis knows that he is bound to be re-elected, whatever happens, so it is nothing more than an empty gesture. I hope that there are no other candidates so his gesture will be even more devoid of meaning. I will be voting with my feet - and boycotting the election altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM

When considering the mentality of the type of people who vote for Davis, bear in mind that they also voted the appalling misogynist and piss-head, Godfrey Bloom as their MEP. This is man who said:

"No self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age. I just don't think they clean behind the fridge enough. I am here to represent Yorkshire women who always have dinner on the table when you get home. I am going to promote men's rights."

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

""It is plainly an attempt to drive the conservatives towards the libertarian right.""

It's all in the perception Richard.

I would have said it is plainly an attempt to prevent any further slide toward the totalitarian, communist left (as opposed to the genuine socialist left), adding only that it is a singularly stupid way to make such an attempt.

I can't recall who said it, and I don't have the time right now to find out, but I am reminded that someone once said "He that will give up freedom in exchange for security, will, in the end, have neither".

WLD, that's the view of a Tory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:04 AM

"I would have said it is plainly an attempt to prevent any further slide toward the totalitarian, communist left "

Possibly one of the most stupid statements I've read on Mudcats. Please explain how that is happening. You're obviously not living in the UK!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:53 AM

I believe that Davis is a seagreen incorruptible putting his career on the line to save our liberties. I believe that throughout the Thatcher and Blair years he was slowly building up to a climax, the point at which he said NO MORE! THUS FAR, AND NO FURTHER! HERE I STAND, I CAN NO OTHER!!!!

I also believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows, I believe that somewhere in the darkest night a candle glows, I believe for everyone who goes astray someone will come to show the way, I believe, I believe, I believe above the storm the smallest prayer will still be heard, I believe that someone in the great somewhere hears every word, I believe I just saw a the whole bloody stock of Pork Farms fly by.

I wish.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: polaitaly
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:10 AM

ROFLMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:11 AM

That was for PB, by the way!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

One good thing to come out of this - it's split the tory party down the middle :)

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:53 AM

like a Brazilian.....

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:38 AM

I won't pursue that analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

have you seen the cover of the Daily mail - he is being hailed as a freedom fighter!

Sometimes England scares me.

You know, if unreconsructed Portaloo could have thought up a stunt like this against Major in '92, we all might be speaking Portuguese by now.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

It is about "habeus corpus" and avoiding people being held without charges being brought through our legal system ~ 42 days is a long time in anyones life, presumed innocent until found guilty

It is about the removal of trial by jury, a corner stone of UK and other countries system of the "Rule of Law"

We must not give way to changes which give up fundamental freedoms in a free society

Good luck to the man and I am not interested in his politics or that of others in this

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:30 AM

I thought the reason we have an opposition party is that, as a party, they oppose policies of the government that they disagree with. If Davis sees himself as some white knight fighting to free the country of oppression, I suggest he starts closer to home in his own constituency.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

One might assume then that all of you who think that my comment was

"Possibly one of the most stupid statements I've read on Mudcats."

actually support:- Identity Cards, Unlimited CCTV, Unlimited stop and search, no right to trial by jury, courts now draw inferences from silence on the part of the accused, multiple databases, all apparently easily accessible to everyone except the department responsible for deporting foreign criminals and illegal immigrants, and when they DO manage to access them, they leave 'em on the bloody bus.

I further presume that you are happy, should our far from infallible authorities mistake you for someone they want to catch, to be grabbed off the street without warning, and held for up to six weeks, to be turfed out without apology, whenever somebody points out they've got the wrong man.

All possible in England right now, and all smelling more like Joe Stalin than Maggie Thatcher.


I DO INDEED LIVE IN ENGLAND, but it's a far cry from the Merrie England it once was, and IMO should still be.

If you really want to live in a dictatorship, there are plenty to choose from. Try Zimbabwe.

But leave England as the place the dead of two world wars sacrificed their lives to preserve.

If they had known how useless that sacrifice was, and how that hard won freedom would be frittered away, by political hacks with neither guts nor conscience, I wonder if they would have queued up to volunteer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

you know whats really scary....

back in the dark days of the Toxteth riots, i can remeber a rentamob crowd jabbering on Qusetion Time that Thatch was a fascist.

Dear Old Michael Foot turned to them wearily and said, of course she's not a fascist. And he went to locate the precise strand of traditional conservatism she represented - what her guiding philosophers would be, and whatt the logical counter to her arguments would be.

Nowadays we have an opposition that philosphically lines up with rentamob.

Gordon Brown a stalinist! What utterly utterly moronic bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

What I don't understand is that if you happen to live in DD's constituency and don't agree with him on this one issue, (but, for argument's sake, you happen to be a Tory) who do you vote for? If you live in his constituency and happen to be Lib Dem, who do you vote for? If you're a socialist, who do you vote for? What will any result actually prove about the strength of feeling about this issue? What has this exercise got to do with democracy as we know it? And if he's elected (probably a foregone conclusion, because he's a Tory and because he's already got a majority) what exactly will he be able to do as a lone voice in Westminster that he couldn't have done before resigning?
In other words, leaving aside my own feelings on the issue (which are, pretty much, that I'm more bothered about my rights not to be threatened by terrorists than the rights of the few people who might unjustly lose a few weeks of liberty - for which, under this new legislation, they would be compensated, btw) - what is the point, exactly?

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

No Don, you're not getting it, are you? It's the bit about the totalitarian communist left that, as WLD says, is...well. you'll have read it. I'm no fan of New Labour or most of their policies but communists! LOL. They're not even socialists. Please don't insult communists with your ill-considered monikers.

And as for tories as defenders of civil liberties? LOL LOL LOL. I presume, from your stance, that you're a fully paid up member of Amnesty? No? Then what the f**k are you ranting about?

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

As we speak arch stalinist Gordon Brown is on telly saying what a good mate his friend the Duke of Edinburgh is, and how he 'really understood' him back when GB was fiery student leader.

Roll on the revolution!
You have nothing to lose but your diamond tiaras!

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Well, there's none so blind, as they say.

I guess if you lot can't see slow erosion of your rights, under the guise of keeping you safe from the bogeyman, then you deserve whatever you get, for allowing it to happen.

You have a greater chance of being struck by lightning, attacked by a mad dog and run over by a steamroller, all in the same day, than of being harmed by terrorist actions.

The 42 day holding without charge will not alter that possibility by any measurable quantity, and it will not cause, or lead to, the conviction of a single terrorist who would otherwise have gone free.

It WILL give the authorities another step toward the total control of your lives which is truly what they crave. We are heading toward an Orwellian nightmare system, and it has been brought about by exactly the method propounded by Goebbels. "Give the people someone to fear, or hate, and they will fall over themselves to give up their rights and freedoms."

It is a matter of months since people on this forum were screaming blue murder about the idea of having to carry identity cards. I believe, if Brown re-introduces the idea (and he says he intends to do that) it will almost pass unnoticed.

DonT.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

"Gordon Brown a stalinist! What utterly utterly moronic bollocks!"

Facile comment WLD, and entirely unworthy of you.

As you are well aware, I did NOT call Brown a Stalinist.

I named a number of measures which have been, or are intended to be, implemented by this government (and I use that word in the loosest possible sense), measures which I said smacked more of Soviet Russia than of England, even under a right wing Tory government.

Which of those measures were not a part of the Russian way of life under Uncle Joe?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:49 PM

You know, if unreconstructed Portaloo could have thought up a stunt like this against Major in '92, we all might be speaking Portuguese by now.

What on earth has Portillo got to do with Portugal, weelittledrummer?
..........................................

The way politics go these days, I can't see that Davies is significantly to the right of New Labour on a mass of issues. And on the matter of locking people up without charging them, he is in fact much more in line with Labour traditions than the current government is, with the reluctant compliance of a supine mass of "Labour" MPs..

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

""In other words, leaving aside my own feelings on the issue (which are, pretty much, that I'm more bothered about my rights not to be threatened by terrorists than the rights of the few people who might unjustly lose a few weeks of liberty - for which, under this new legislation, they would be compensated, btw) - what is the point, exactly?""

1. That's a pretty cold self centred attitude usually attributed by members of this forum to those heartless, power mad Tories they all detest so much.

2. Those FEW people whom you dismiss so carelessly, are human beings with lives, jobs, and families, and I'm reasonably sure that the majority of them would care more about YOUR rights than you do about THEIRS.

3. How DO you compensate somebody who has been wrongly arrested, held for several weeks, probably incommunicado except (possibly) for a legal representative, and then set loose without apology or explanation?

Money?.......I don't think that'll do it, especially if the mean B*****ds dish out the kind of cash they pay jurors.


Having said all that, Anne, I CAN relate to your first paragraph. The action he has taken is possibly the most stupid ever taken by any politician. It has no possible relevance to any reasonable expression of opposition to government policy, and serves only to show that David Davis has totally lost the plot, and is ripe for culling.

And, as a Tory myself (YES, some of us DO care about civil liberties) that is not something I want to be saying.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM

And above the squabbling crowd ...

Tall as a statue ...

his pocket watch glinting in the sunshine ...

David Davis gazed out at the horizon ....

Like a courageous helmsman ...

on stormy seas ...

Giding us toward a better future ...

A future in which people are finally able to enjoy ...














just how special HE really is ...

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:07 PM

i apologise.

Gordon is a bit of a stalinist. possibly the moustache.
portaloo has no connection with portugal. it was a cheap jibe, concerning his supposed ancestry.
the right wingers did talk of him as 'the prince across the water' when 'soft option' Major was elected because they knew no one with Thatcher's line in malarkey would get elected.

I am chastened.

DD...bit of a tit though, wouldn't you say? i feel more threatened by him and his thatcherite economics than I do by Gordon.

You see when the tories get elected and all the tax breaks start going to the rich and economies have to be made - so essential services go down the tube, and no one sees further than the end of this weeks balance sheet - except when it comes to right wing bollocks like fund holding surgeries and the national curriculum .

that's when ordinary people - trade unionists, teachers teaching about cultural diversity, the unemployed - that's when they become enemies of the state.

thatcher bent the law every which way in those years and when the statute books didn't back her up - she ignored them anyway. The secret history of that period won't be known in my lifetime, but from what people told me who had been on both sides in the miners strike - I guessed some of it.

So no. I don't see DD as a guarantor of my civil rights.

i think it might be a mistake for you to do so as well.

if the cops and the soldiers who have to clear up after things like the tube bombing ask for this extra peiod of detention - they should be allowed it. they and the troops are on the sharp end.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:25 AM

"You see when the tories get elected and all the tax breaks start going to the rich and economies have to be made - so essential services go down the tube, and no one sees further than the end of this weeks balance sheet - except when it comes to right wing bollocks like fund holding surgeries and the national curriculum ."

WLD,

Sounds identical to life under New Labour. All politicians are tories (sic) now.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:31 AM

What has Portillo's ancestry got to do with Portugal? His parents were Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM

Portugal is adjacent to Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

Compare the freedoms lost by the ordinary person under the detestable Tatcher with those lost under the somewhat less right wing Brown, and the entirely self-serving Blair. It is the economics of capitalism, Don, that damage your life.

Al, I agree entirely with you. Indeed, I rather suspect that about the only thing we disagree violently about is "What is folk music", but for the present let us attack the loony right.

The various conservative-labelled governments over many years have pursued restrictive policies in attempts to control terrorism. When they are in office, they have no concern for the civil liberties of those they harm in such pursuits.

But because of the essential corruption of British political life, the concern of most politicians when in opposition is indeed to oppose, whether or not they are correct so to oppose. Their only purposes are empty political point-scoring, a vain hope of defeating the government, and positioning with a view to the next election. After election they do as their majority enables them, with no regard for manifesto promises. The reason the conservatives opposed the somewhat increased powers of detention under discussion (while, when in government, they sought and used greatly increased powers of detention) was because the conservatives were the opposition, and nothign at all to do with principle.

Davis, however, while he would, if in office, instantly take such powers of detention as he thought fit, has devised a platform that he thinks will play well for election purposes and enable him when in office to free the rich and powerful to railroad the poor and weak.

It isn't rocket science.

Who came up with a free national health service, Don? Who "reformed" the economy so that the only worthwhile jobs were for smoke and mirrors men trading junk bonds and economic products- leaving no worthwhile jobs for ordianry people? Who told those ordinary people to get on their bikes?. Ask yourself where the money for the Eton educations came from and who that money was taken from?

Come to that ask yourself if you'd rather have street cameras on Rochester High Street, or muggings and knifings by youths on white lightning. You don't actually believe in liberty in general. You only believe in your liberty, and you don't see the harm that that, in the end, causes you.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

I'm sure that street cameras have helped encourage the fashion for wearing hooded garments - but I don't think there is any evidence that they have had any impact on the frequency of muggings or knifings generally. (I don't know about in Rochester.)

Eton education isn't relevant in the case of Davis. (That's one reason he lost out to Cameron in the contest to be Tory leader. He was seen as a bit common.)

With any luck this by-election will end up damaging the chances of the 42 day nonsense getting through, and will also get the Tories fighting among themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

Talking of Tories has anyone noticed that Boris has gone very quiet?

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

'With any luck this by-election will end up damaging the chances of the 42 day nonsense getting through, and will also get the Tories fighting among themselves.'


yeh and with any luck al quaeda will develop a heat seeking missile that only only targets Daily Mail readers.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

"""In other words, leaving aside my own feelings on the issue (which are, pretty much, that I'm more bothered about my rights not to be threatened by terrorists than the rights of the few people who might unjustly lose a few weeks of liberty - for which, under this new legislation, they would be compensated, btw) - what is the point, exactly?""

1. That's a pretty cold self centred attitude usually attributed by members of this forum to those heartless, power mad Tories they all detest so much.

2. Those FEW people whom you dismiss so carelessly, are human beings with lives, jobs, and families, and I'm reasonably sure that the majority of them would care more about YOUR rights than you do about THEIRS.

3. How DO you compensate somebody who has been wrongly arrested, held for several weeks, probably incommunicado except (possibly) for a legal representative, and then set loose without apology or explanation?

Money?.......I don't think that'll do it, especially if the mean B*****ds dish out the kind of cash they pay jurors."


The few people I'm talking about are the very few people who are likely to be picked up by the police under suspicion of terrorist activities and detained for more than 28 days. It's unlikely to happen very often (probably less often than the chances you posit for the terrorist attack, although I have friends who have been affected by these at first hand and I've been within hearing range of at least two bombs in the past) and I have no more idea than you do whether these few people are likely to be nice cuddly civil rights activists or concerned for my well-being. That's immaterial. We also have no definite way of knowing just how many possible terrorist incidents have been de-activated by our security forces, but I'm prepared to believe that there may have been a few, and if Gordon Brown is indeed passionate about extending the 28 day limit despite the consequences for his already damaged public image I suspect he has reason to be so. Yes, indeed it would be a tragedy if they were to detain innocent people for no good reason, but according to the legislation proposed the compensation payable would be £3,000 a day. Not good enough of course if you lose your job or your partner but a hell of a lot better than it might be and one hell of an incentive for the security forces to sort out the evidence one way or another.

I may be naive and trusting, but after going through more security checks myself in the past couple of years than most on this forum (because of the frequency of the work I've done in prisons)I have concluded that I personally would far rather have an ID card than have to continually complete forms for CRB and other security clearances. I remain convinced that for those of us with nothing to hide, there is very little to fear. I have never been prevented from doing anything I wanted to do or say and my only public problems have been to do with the tabloid press rather than public officials. The same goes, incidentally, for my far more politically active brother (big brother, as it happens) who has had more problems with the Daily Mail than with the security chaps.

Self-centred? Who isn't? I've worked with children who were traumatised by the bombings on the Isle of Dogs, who had their windows blown out by the blast and who went slightly loopy for quite a while afterwards when any loud noises came into the school playground. I've been a Samaritan volunteer dealing with members of the public and members of the armed forces who have experienced nasty deaths at close quarters. I think I'm unlikely these days to have my daily routine interrupted by terrorism, living on a fairly quiet hill in Wales, but I reserve the right to be concerned for other people. Locking some suspects up for six weeks, while clearly not a good procedure, is still not the same as shooting them, blowing them up or destroying their homes.

But I'm glad we agree that David Davis is an idiot.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:19 PM

""You don't actually believe in liberty in general. You only believe in your liberty, and you don't see the harm that that, in the end, causes you.""

It isn't that long ago that YOU were loudly berating all who were in favour of identity cards.


You may consider yourself a highly intelligent man, and a lawyer of considerable repute, and there may even be those who would agree, but you have NO DAMN RIGHT to impugn my motives, and issue gratuitously offensive remarks concerning my integrity.

There was a time when, in spite of our political differences, you were on the list of those I thought of as friends. I am sure that you will be too arrogant to be bothered that that is no longer so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:23 PM

calm down Don. you should hear what Richard says about me for my belief that there might be some room for debate about what constitutes folk music.

he's very engahjay as they say in Paris. I had to spell that phonetically (as I don't know how to do acute accents!)

personally I'm in favour of identity cards with a DNA profile attached. I can't think of anybody (except serial rapists) who would have anything to lose from it.

And I think davis is horrid and creepy. He reminds me of these weird religious preachers who look too good to be true. I wouldn't mind running his DNA througha a data base.

Subject: RE: BS: david davis - what's that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:02 PM

Magrath, I didn't say that Davis went to Eton. I was generalising about conservative MPs at that point.

Don, your support for those who would only harm you and detract from the provision for your needs is frankly incomprehensible. Do you think rich conservatives give a toss for your rights and liberties?