An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

Listening to an enjoyable Travelling Folk (BBC Radio Scotland) last
Saturday night, I was reminded of this Message from my website:
"On the B.B.C., I've heard, and appreciated, two lots of Scottish but
no English or Welsh folk awards"...?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:08 AM

Ah, Dave, why do you hurt me so?
Shades of Roger Gall here...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

Frankly, I don't know of Roger Gall, George..?..and I don't understand how an English junior and senior folk awards - to match what they already have in Scotland - would "hurt" you..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:29 AM

And an English award for going on....and on.....and on.....and on.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

There is a great deal that you don't understand, WAV, as your previous marathon threads here have made all too clear. Go away and read some of Roger's marathon threads (you can find them via the search engine, under his appropriate pseudonym of 'The Shambles') and then come back; if you still have the will after the months it will require.

My main worry is that you won't see why there was ever a problem.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

Was, RG, too, trooping English folk music, MD?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Voteno
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:49 AM

Why? The usual suspects would win all of the awards in a mutual slap on the back ritual. Besides, the Carthy clan must have run out of mantelpiece space by now. So, NO!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

Here we go again WAV...........take your abhorrent ideas elsewhere.

As always an innocent enough thread title (nothing wrong with English Folk Awards) but how long before you start to peddle your foul, racist crap?

Why do you persist? Most Mudcatters have you sussed......and I for one don't want to read your drivel any longer, do you understand (or care about)the damage that you are doing to the "folk" movement by posting your rubbish on open an open forum like this?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

Read some of those threads, WAV, as I suggested, if you want to understand what George meant. Don't expect me to summarise or explain them for you. Off you go, now.

'Awards' are a marketing exercise, and pretty meaningless in the end, whatever the category.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:12 AM

OK, Dave, in the best "'Allo, 'Allo" tradition, "I will say zis only vunce":

It is not the existence of any English Folk Awards that would hurt me, but your persistence in certain directions, which only serves to disillusion me. You see, when we first came across each other here and on mySpace, I thought innocently that there were some touch-points between us. Because in my 19 years on this island, and with the help of the English rose that shared 35 years with me and the many friends I made here, I learned more than the language; I got to understand the culture(s) here, the good and the bad, and they are second nature to me now (plagiarising Prof Higgins here).

My own existence in two cultures made me question early on where do I stand myself, what am I. The answer I came up with is "in both places", in other words I love, and am proud of, both my inherited and my adopted cultures. I would neither abandon my Greekness, neither would I shun my learned "Englishness". And from that I made the logical step that one ought to remain proud of their own culture, even while they recognise their less savoury aspects and try to correct them.

So, some of your early statements of belief found ready-ploughed ground in me. But not long afterwards I realised that you were prepared to go much further than I was, in order to recognise, celebrate and preserve what you profess to hold dear. And also that the English culture you refer to contains a number of "romantic" (perhaps mythical) elements, which I, of course, coming into it as an 18 year old, did not inherit or adopt. We may both use the words "Englishness", "preserve" etc, but our perspectives are different. Furthermore, you have proved very insistent (a-la-Roger Gall) both in trying to persuade others of your views, and amazingly impervious to the arguments of others (I am referring to the less scatological ones here, though I do actually like catspaw and frequently smirk when he calls a spade a shovel).

Extremism is often not a matter of beliefs, but of degree. And I find that the degrees to which you seem to be prepared to go, or at least that you advocate, truly foreign to me. Furthermore, I fear that extremist ideas, as they polarise the world around them, effectively muzzle reasonableness.

It is therefore the danger to reason that I mourn. And also my mistaken initial belief that we shared a common understanding on the subject of English culture and what to do (and what NOT to do) in its interest.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:16 AM

Sorry - extra "neither" above; but I cook a mean souvlaki.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:41 AM

English Folk Awards - Results

Best traditional song sung in a funny voice - Martin Carthy

Best traditional guitar style invented by Martin Carthy - M. Carthy

Best Traditional Group - Any with Martin Carthy in it.

Lifetime Achievement Award - Martin Carthy

Best Female Performer - Anyone who can say, "My name is Carthy," Carthy

The Martin Carthy Award For Being Martin Carthy - No surprise here - Yes, it's our very own Martin Carthy.

And so on.............

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

On a good stone one can grind many axes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

Obviously. Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

But for some reason many will call it racist to say so.

I am not sure what criteria used to be applied at the sadly defunct National. I know there used to be an award for the best unaccompanied performance of a traditional folk song but I am not aware whether it was categorised by nationality or whether the traditional songs of England Ireland Scotland and Wales and/or other places were all equally eligible.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM

At risk of getting drawn into yet another fruitless argument...

"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

I find this claim frankly bizarre. On what evidence do you base this?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Mike Hunt
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:15 AM

That WalkaboutsVerse, 'e just don't get it do 'e

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:19 AM

He ought to go walkabout for a year or two, I can't make my mind up if it's deliberate or he really is that crass and stupid.

eric

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

To Howard - tonight, as often, I will enjoy a bit of Take the Floor (nearly all Scottish dance music), then Celtic Heartbeat (with plenty of Welsh songs and tunes), then Travelling Folk (with plenty more Scottish folk); as for English folk from the BBC, I'll have to wait until Wednesday for the relatively low percentage we get from Mike Harding; so, sadly, it is as Richard and I are saying, and there IS a need for change.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

English Folk Awards? In a word, no I don't think so.
There is an attempt to highjack the English Tradition by certain right wing elements, for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

If someone would like to characterise the definitive English traditional song I'll listen, till then it's songs from England (which may well be half Scots, Irish, French, Zzzzzzz......). I ain't buying the poor old England guff because it nearly always comes with an agenda and a colour chart.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

I don't think many would argue that the BBC could do better when it comes to coverage of folk music of any sort. But Mike Harding is not the only offering, there's Genevieve Tudor's programme on Radio Shropshire for example. There's also The Music Well aka Britfolk.

But to argue that "English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated" on the basis of the BBC's deficiencies just doesn't follow.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

And we used to get "Northern Folk" on a Sunday night, Howard, until it was axed by the Beeb a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

And I think I play a rich variety of music on "Thank Goodness It's Folk".

Read the mudcat thread with that title and it will direct you to the programme.

See the playlist at www.myspace.com/davepeyre

But I have to warn you there is some Scottish and Irish in there.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

Aye dave but you'll also be scrutinised for what is and what is not folk. I've looked at your great playlists and can see at least a couple of bands and their music who would not pass muster with WAV.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:29 PM

I was waiting for this. First off, who needs reminding of something they wrote on their own website. Second, WAV-do us a favor and post all of your "website" points now and get them over with. Third, everything you say is bullshit.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Dare I suggest a heavily supervised guided tour of Cecil Sharp House? This just begin to give you some basic understanding of what The Tradition is REALLY all about.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

A VERY funny post from GUEST,what'sthepoint, above. LOL is a rather overused term on forums like this; but for once, genuinely deserved in this case. And I actually LIKE most of Carthy's stuff.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

WAV once more spouts,"English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others."

Right, I want to see actual academic proof that this so, and PLEASE don't dare link your 'proof' to your excrutiatingly bad 'verse'website. Does the Vaughn Williams Library at Cecil Sharp House have papers backing your claims? ummm...what about Newcastle University? The very excellent Yorkshire Garland data base? I'll try one more. What about Rod Stradling's absolutely wonderful Musical Traditions website, anything in the articlesthere?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

What a bunch of idiots. You can't correctly quote what I said, and you can't even correctly identify who said it.

If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against.

If I don't object to awards for Scottish folk music, and awards for Irish folk music, and there awards for Welsh folk music, why do you object to awards for English folk music?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

"you can't even correctly identify who said it."
Being that you're, in my opinion, completely interchangeable with WAV, the mistake on my part is understandable.

My question to YOU stands regardless. Let's see the proof, if you have any.

Then there are those folk who are seemingly obsessed with awards

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Since I didn't say what you said I said, there is no call for me to prove it. What I said was obvious (a quote from Lord Denning, if you like "All that I have said thus far is so obvious that it needs no authority").

Oh, and before you call me racist for saying that English music should be treated no less favourably than other British music, a quote from another thread (from WLD):

"Sonny Boy Williamson came to England and made an album with The Yardbirds. According to Clapton's biography, Williamson went straight back to the States, and said those English want to play the blues really badly, and that's how they play them - badly."

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Woa there Def, that wasn't WAV. But in any case, any discussion or grizzles along the lines of "they/government/others should do more about preserving a culture" versus "they are doing plenty already" actually misses the point in my book. And by a country mile, too.

Because it was no government and no policies that nurtured and developed the tunes and the songs we love, or the customs, the plays, the dances etc. It was individuals. At times lots of them, nowadays fewer perhaps, but that can only be our own fault - never a government's or an organisation's. So, if one feels that their culture is threatened, ferchrissake getyer finger out and DO something about it. The lecturers and the students at Newcastle, the staff and volunteers/members of EFDSS, countless performers like Coe, Kirkpatrick, Mary and Anahata (yes, Carthy too), Tickell, Collins, Swan and Dyer, Isambarde, Moray, Spiers & Boden, why, even Lakeman etc ARE doing something.

There is something laughable about demanding that the powers that be "do something" about a cultural expression that is supposed to be of and for the folk. At best, they can get out of the way; they cannot nurture it. It takes voices, and hands and legs and minds to do that. So if you feel that an English Folk Awards is needed, don't moan at the Beeb or Harding or Leonard - get out and organise one.

And I 'll gladly give you a hand.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

This IS getting tedious. Alright one one more time slllooowwwlly

YOU said, and here's the quote "Otherwise English folk songs and folk music are discriminated against, less learned, less studied, less performed and less propagated than many others.

and I said prove it. You hid bhind, ohh it's obvious that what I've said is right, and then you quote some aristo. or other (the word pompous comes to mind here)

Sonny Boy Williamson II, was right, by the way.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Sorry George I was reading and doing something else at the same time. Anyway, yes, if you feel the English Tradition is so hard done by, Bridge, do something about it. George has pointed out those who have actuaally got their fingers out, I do my small part as well. Join us why don't you? Or do you prefer to sit on the side lines and whine?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Also, Def, you are perfectly welcome to your opinion that Richard B and WAV are completely interchangeable (and I thought I was the Greek drama queen!).

As indeed I am entitled to my own opinion that, with regards to this statement at least, you are wrong. Very wrong.

Anger and frustration are bad counsellors.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

Not based on anger, just observation, it takes more than the likes of Bridge and WAV to me angry, believe me. Drama, I dislike, it's waste of time, effort and energy, but as you say, you're entitled to your opinion.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

Cultural traditions of performance (but also literature and art) need an audience to survive. No audience and they die out. And of course they need performers and participants-who in turn need an income. An audience for live performance plays a role in sustaining a tradition that goes beyond being consumers who pay.

~~Much as I dislike the crypto-racism that underlies this thread, I think that recent cuts in arts council funding would be a more constructive target. By the same token, better arts funding will accomplish more than any 'award' scheme. (Awards did not keep the old ballads alive, sometimes in forms longer than any within these shores, in the Appalachians.)

As to National award schemes--they seem more or less like feeding wild animals the wrong kind of human food and risk spawning commercialism, standardization, whatnot.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:09 PM

Anyway, how do you define "English"? And how do you define "folk"??
(come on, it must be AGES since we last discussed this on here :))

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Another meaningless thread that spreads more heat than light. When will someone put a stop to this nonsense? Where is the discrimination against English music? Why do all WAVs threads have England or English in the title? Let's take a guess...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

Send the baying hounds back to the kennel.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

It is correct to say that awards programmes don't keep the trad. arr. going, and the audiences (where are you?) and musicians do keep the music going. Send letters to the arts councils and other bodies, both local and national, and tell them what you think, because, you know what? Those arts councils aren't going to read any opinion published here, in these forums.

Again, I say, I worry about people who are seemingly obsessed with awards programmes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

I have been singing english traditional songs for over thirtyfive years .
I dont need awards,I do it because they are songs I enjoy singing.http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE
this is much better than arguing with Wav

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

More results - just in

Best 89 verse ballad or boring equivalent - WAV

Herman Goering School Of Self Righteous Dismissal As Racist Everything Anyone Has To Say With The Word English In It In A Folk Context - Def Shepard

Best Support Act - Richard Bridge

Henry Kissenger Award for Peace Keeping on a Folk Forum - George "the dove" Papavgeris

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Oh you missed

Person Least Able To Take Resonsibilty For Their Postings By Not Signing In - GUEST,What'sthepoint

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

Actually all I said was, I don't believe in an English Traditional Folk Awards programme, because I basically don't believe in awards programmes regardless of what nationality they are. The term a complete waste of time and money (money that could be better spent through grants and loans to arts communities).
and no, at no pint did I use the term racist, here GUEST borrow my spare pair of ~O^O~ :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

"If there are awards for Scottish folk music, and there are awards for Irish folk music, and there are awards for Welsh folk music, but no awards for English folk music then English folk music is discriminated against."

No it isn't, it just means it's not possible to win a meaningless trophy for it. That isn't discrimination; it could just as logically be interpreted as respect.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

But, Henry, there are, always held within the borders of England, British Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

Kissinger? KISSINGER? I am deeply hurt, offended, pissed off and otherwise unhappy. So much, that I am going to pour myself a whiskey and watch something subversive, like Magic Roundabout.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

There is no such animal as the British Folk Awards, the award programmes hosted by the BBC is simply called the Radio 2 Folk Awards, there is no nationality mentioned anywhere. The same goes for The Young Folk Awards
actually this year at the Folk Awards, Julie Fowlis (Best Folk Singer) and Lau (best group) are from Scotland. John Tams & Barry Coope(Best Duo) are English, Martin Simpson, Kate Rusby, Jez Lowe, Martin Carty, Eliza Carthy, all English, and given the rest of the nominees etc., the balance seems to hang very much in favour of England. So.....

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

That would seem to indicate a bias toward the English, rather than discrimination against it.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Indeed it does, Henry, that was the point (I fear though, in vain, as far as WAV is concerned)I was making. I just went right through the list of nominees and the winners, again, and the balance is overwhelmingly in favour of England.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

So, instead of worrying about such "bias" (Henry) or "balance" (DS), why not have English (junior and senior) Folk Awards, to match what they already have in fair Scotland..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM

Perhaps it's just the name he has a problem with..
I think these awards are a bit silly anyway - it's not a competition, after all, is it? As someone pointed out earlier, music awards are more to do with marketing than the product itself.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

WAV: Because no-one's invented one yet. Why don't you do it?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

I'm not worried in the least (that's your balliwick), If we HAVE to have an awards programme I like the way the Radio 2 Folk Awards work, and am not interested in the least in yet another awards programme. Put the money where it belongs, in the hands of the arts communities, regardless of nationality.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM

Yes, WAV put your money where your mouth is, investigate the possibilities, you seem all set on yet another awards programme, oh and make sure funding comes from private sources, I for one refuse point blank to fork over any money

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM

While you're at it, WAV, I suggest you write out a full and concise definition of precisely what constitutes English folk music, as it could save much argument later on I suspect. These things are best considered well in advance to save any confusion.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

I'm Cornish, so what has all this got to do with me?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

Wav - why not apply to do a folk programme on your local community radio station - then you can play what you like and see how many listeners you get.

If there isn't a community radio station - it is easy enouigh to start one - or an internet station or whatever. It is really not difficult to get on air if you are dedicated.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

"I'm Cornish, so what has all this got to do with me?"

You're being discriminated against - go forth and start up the 'Cornish Folk Awards'.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

I'm really quite angry about this.

DS, I almost can't believe you don't understand. If you check the Comhaltas threads, 20 years ago Irish traditional music and song had almost died out (so it is reported). A programme of awards resulted in the music being played. Now it is ubiquitous.

Look around even this thread - one of your apparent supporters saying that the only people playing English are the Carthys. It isn't true, but it is the perception.

The last fest I went to was the Pigs Ear Folk Ale. Programme toppers the Young Coppers who do sing English folk songs. Pig's Ear also do some English folk song. Who else? Me (yes I did briefly get on stage). I don't think I heard many other English folk songs the entire weekend. Many fine songs, but I think not many other English folk. Oh yes, a Band called Dave did the Drunken Sailor and Whip Jamboree, and there were a few shanties in the sing. Yes, DS, I do try to sing as much of my tradition as I can, because it deserves not to be lost. I'm not sitting and wingeing, I'm doing (and some like it and some don't and that's their call - I don't claim to be all that good, but I'm doing what I can and I do try to breathe some life into my tradition by arranging (I had three goes before settling on that word) the songs).

But there again, you don't seem to be able to read either (and, I almost can't believe, you don't know who Lord Denning was).   Go back and read what I said. I know this may be hard, but then try to stop and think.

It doesn't need government money: any festival could have an English folk song performance competition at pretty well no cost.   Why don't they? Point proven.

Oh - and if you can't read, DS, can you count? How many English performers were there in the Irish and Scottish and Welsh (if any) folk awards? Can you count as far as zero, or haven't you reached the concepts of the Arabian mathematicians of over a thousand years ago yet?

And while I'm at it, DS - have you bothered to check how many entries in the Smoothiechops awards were folk at all?

And further - if Sonny Boy Williamson was right (which, actually, I think he was) why would it be racist to say that the English can't do Irish, Scottish, or Welsh (or other American as distinct from blues) either? Or vice versa?

There seem to be three bodies of fools ranked against the idea of an English Folk Award: the ones who wish folk to die, the ones who wish English folk to die, and the hardcore PC who will permit any person of identifiable ethnicity the defence of his or her culture - except the English. Let me ask you Greg. What are you doing about Cornish song? Not my place to tell you but we had a Kent thing (I was not involved in organising) some months back and I eagerly look forward to the next. Maybe I will actually be able to get into the sing!


George, in places you are the voice of sanity on the thread. You bring great skill as an observer of English society and framer of songsummaries of such society (and a mellifluous voice to aid the telling of your observations). You do not denigrate English folk song. But I don't think I've ever hears you sing and English folk (1945 definition) song. You are right (IMHO) to say "The answer I came up with is "in both places", in other words I love, and am proud of, both my inherited and my adopted cultures. I would neither abandon my Greekness, neither would I shun my learned "Englishness". And from that I made the logical step that one ought to remain proud of their own culture, even while they recognise their less savoury aspects and try to correct them". It is a point I have made to some near-relatives quite argumentatively. They are proud of having abandoned their birth class, and I say that they must be proud of who they are and their origins even if also proud of self-improvement. It is a point some of my trade union colleagues make to me - that never having been working class I am at best a cuckoo in their nest (Hell, what does that make Tony Benn?). Let me make it back. I am English, and it is right that English Folk song should not be lost. I will do what I can to preserve it and many others do not. One step in the right direction would be awards and contests as Comhaltas has used to assist in the preservation of Irish folk music and song, although I would be happier with more flexibility as to interpretation. There is a fine distinction at best between prescriptiveness and taste as to performance, and all judges of such competitions are to some extent victims of their preferences, but the songs and tunes must live, not be pickled in aspic or they are no longer "folk". If they are no longer played they will be dead.

Sorry to go on so long but I am really rather angry.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Bridge, I wasn't even going to waste my time with your hysteria but....
The paranoia that English Trad Arr. about to die is laughable at best.
I know who Lord Denning, just another idiot arsito as far as I'm concerned. Oh look there's 1954 rearing it's head again, look! this 2008. Your definition of what is and is not folk is vastly different from mine, I plugged my fiddle and mandolin in along many years ago, and I'm not about to unplug them because a few malcontents. If that makes me any less of a folk musician your eyes, too bad! I do songs from the entire British Isles and a handful of bluegrass as well, don't like, too bad. I don't have a problem with the Radio 2 Folk Awards. Seems Leige and Lief went waaaayyy over the heads of some.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

Richard,hope you dont mind me making two minor corrections,which dont alter what you are trying to say.
Comhaltas were formed in 1951,and I am sure you meant to say the 1954 definition.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying,my problem is with Walkaboutsverse,I have never called him a racist,but I am watching him very carefully,I am at this moment suspicious,it is a problem that certain elements of the far right are prepared to hijack English traditional song,
I know that youare not a racist.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

"How many English performers were there in the Irish and Scottish and Welsh (if any) folk awards? Can you count as far as zero"

Doesn't that make them racist by your logic?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

if you had an award system, the same boring old bastards would win.

apart from the boring young bastard award.

we already know that, in their own opinion, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

It will happen, Richard (me singing "54" folk songs, that is). A number of reasons why not yet, but those reasons one by one are disappearing, and there are several songs I want to have a go at. It will happen. And the album will probably be called "Trojan" or "Gift Horse". There. You read it here first.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,What'sthepoint
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

Did you have to mention the horse George?

What's with this, "I'm watching him very carefully," mallarky Captain? Are you working undercover for the Folk Police?

Little Bo Peep is a laugh a minute isn't she!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:16 AM

It's a personal observation based on keeping both eyes and ears open but folk and nationalism are easy bed fellows. That provides an understandable enthusiasm for domestic traditional music with an endgame that finishes in the Balkanisation of the tradition - and we're not talking Tamburitzas.
It all relies on the goodwill of the individuals promoting the music, transparency at all levels, a willingness to answer questions and instill confidence in others, something that's been lacking in previous threads. It is not, given the signifiers that have attached themselves to St George's flag, incumbent on the cynics to prove their doubts.

Personally I find all organisations that promote indigenous music exclusively a bit suspect, or at least odd. At the very least they don't recognise historical strands, hybridisation and are overly keen to make one moment in time THE moment in time when it comes to arbitrating what is and isn't 'folk'.

I'd be quite keen on an English folk awards but it would have as many doors as fences and the grumpy would have taken their ball home long before the winners were announced.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:32 AM

Further to some of the above comments on the fairness of any such awards: "traditions are handed-down, but they are best cared for by meritocracy – not nepotism" (again, from here).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:35 AM

"are you working undercover for the folk police",thankyou, you gave nme the first laugh of the day.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:37 AM

It doesn't need government money: any festival could have an English folk song performance competition at pretty well no cost.   Why don't they? Point proven.

You mean like Saltburn and the Fred Jordan Award for unaccompanied traditional singing? Or Satlburn and the singer songwriter competition?

Point unproven.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Crossbred sighthound
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:05 AM

This website is hilarious - every time I come here you're always just arguing over the pettiest little things. I suspect the folk community must have a higher than average amount of deluded pedants in it's ranks.

"No but I said My dog belonged to me whereas you said no MY dog belonged to me - see I'm right you're wrong na na na Celtic Music Martin Carthy I own an accordion that once belonged to a guy who bought pegs from a gypsy and you forgot to put a fullstop there therefore I'm right and"

As you were.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:28 AM

God knows what Willie o' Winsbury would have thought to this thread

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

I predict that the BBC/WBC, SBC, and EBC will cave in and give us an English Folk Awards before this thread is dead.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Folk Awards, like any other culture/arts awards, are marketing exercises. The awards promote the artists, the broadcasters get an audience, and the sponsors get PR. Nothing wrong with that.

The BBC Radio 2 Folk Award is run by a national ie UK radio channel (Before anyone pipes up, yes its run by Smooth Ops on behalf of the Radio 2). Radio 2 has a UK-wide remit, so the awards cover the whole of the UK. From what I can tell from a quick Google, there is a Scottish Young Trad Performers award run by BBC Radio Scotland, which has a specific geographic remit. The main Scottish award seems to be run by an independent organisation called "Hands up for Folk", which is dedicated to promoting Scottish folk music.

The short answer to WAV's original question is that no one with a specifically English remit, and the funding, has tried to organise one. For good or bad, there isn't a BBC England (and for god's sake, WAV, please don't start a thread about that) and in England both the BBC and folk arts organisations tend to be regional rather than national.

The lack of an English Folk Award isn't because of some conspiracy against English music and culture, it's because of the lack of a suitable infrastructure and someone able and willing to organise one.

If you want an English Folk Award, WAV, it's simple. Form a suitable organisation with a committee and constitution, get the necessary funding and sponsorship and media coverage, and put it on yourself. Provided it was done on purely musical grounds, I'd have no objection. But what makes me, and many others, wary is that you also have a political (if not party-political) agenda which many of us are suspicious of, and object to having the music we love associated with.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:21 AM

Willie is winking his approval at that last comment... take note WAV - it's a serious suggestion

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

How about the EFDSS have an annual folk awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM

"How about the EFDSS have an annual folk awards"

Why not, indeed? Are you member? Why don't you join and lobby them to put one on? However, they might feel they have more important things to do.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

1) If you are a member of the EFDSS, you can suggest it to them
2) If you are not a member, then become one and follow 1) above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,BigDavy
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

Personally I would like to see one, just to get to here more trad English sons.

David

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:33 AM

I am with you George,it is very easy to take the piss out of great performers like Martin Carthy under the cloak of a made up name.He is of course as you suggest not the only name worthy of mention and all of your list I applaud especially John Kirkpatrick who is still way out front as far as I am concerned.
Good on you George my hat is in the ring with yours.
Al

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:37 AM

To get here [ sic ] where ? if you want to ' hear ' more English songs do like myself , BUY SOME, or go to places where English music is played predominantly.

eric

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

I must say that the initial perception is that English folk music does get a raw deal at the hands of the English media. There is very little played on the radio and TV. Morris dance is constantly the but of jokes on TV. Anyone daring to say that they like anything English appears to be instantly accused of Racism and so on. But that IS purely my perception. I doubt if yet another tedious awards ceremony would do anything to help that and I trust the judgement of some of the posters that I know on here when they doubt the motive of the initial post but it does pose a genuine question. Does English Folk music get a raw deal?

To that end I did a very quick excercise. The only show dedicated purely to folk on national radio is Mike Hardings. Like it or not that is true. I know there are regional shows and I know folk clubs have more local artists on than you can shake a stick at. I listen to 3 other local radio shows and go to Swinton Folk club every week. Yes there is excelent coverage of English folk music there. But do the mainstream media give enough airtime to English folk? Well, as the MH show was the only one I could use I looked at the playlist. The only way I could divide it fairly was to look at the birthplace of the artists performing and this is how last weeks panned out -

Artist: Kris Drever - Scottish

Artist: Michael McGoldrick - English

Artist: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset - English

Artist: Robin Dransfield - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Maddy Prior - English

Artist: Keith Kendrick - English

Artist: Amy Correia - USA

Artist: Sam Baker - USA

Artist: Mary Gauthier - USA

Artist: Jimmy LaFave - USA

Artist: Eliza Gilkyson - USA

Artist: Lucy Kaplansky - USA

Artist: Faustus - English

15 songs played. 8 of them by English artists. 1 Scottish. 6 from the USA. We could argue that only 6 English acts were represented seeing as Maddy Prior got three bites at the cherry but I am happy to treat that as three songs by an English act.

I have purposely left the played songs off so we do not get into disagreements about whether they were folk songs, what their origins were and so on. Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.

I am sure it was all good music although I did miss it so I cannot confirm that. But maybe someone has a point if they say that English artists are not that well represented in their own country? Maybe we do need something that will rally us to the flag of St George without all the attendant right wing nutters?

At the end of the day it isn't that important. It has survived all sorts of other traumas and I am sure it will still be going when I am long gone. Maybe another Sharp will travel to another Appalacia and bring back English music more original than is played at the moment? Who knows what is around the corner.

In the meanwhile, as suggested before, anyone wanting to hear more English music - Get yer arse out to the local Folk clubs where you are needed!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:02 AM

Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.

Personally I'd say England faired rather better than Wales, N Ireland and Scotland in this "UK wide" broadcast...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

"I predict that the BBC/WBC, SBC, and EBC will cave in and give us an English Folk Awards before this thread is dead."

Only because this thread will outlive most of the BBC directors!!!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Actualy, here is how I would do it:
Viv Stanshall would be the host. He could play the theme song, "We are the Village Green Preservation Society" on sousaphone with a backing track of himself on spoons. Of course, you could always have a symphony orchestra playing a gentle, passionless arrangement of Flanders and Swann's "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".
Whilst the music plays, naturally, the Wimbledon All-England champion's side will entertain all foreign dignitaries with a display of Morris dancing. There shall be a light snack of cucumber sandwiches.
All taking place on a village green, naturally.
Scots, Irish and Welsh (sorry, no Cornish) may apply, as long as they play TRADITIONALLY ENGLISH material, with no harmony, chords or gracenotes.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Davepolshaw wrote Personaly I think it is a pretty poor showcase for English acts but, again, that is my personal opinion.


GUESTJon replied Personally I'd say England faired rather better than Wales, N Ireland and Scotland in this "UK wide" broadcast...

If that were the only way of looking at it I'd agree. Fact is that, counting the hours, Scottish regional radio better represents folk music than English regional radio represents folk music. If there is more English on the UK wide MH show it seems to me to barely balance out the fact that we've lost the folk programmes in the north east, the north west and Yorkshire and Humberside BBC slots (although other folk programmes have, for the moment, survived elsewhere).

Folk music broadcasting in these areas comes down to a choice of MH on BBC R2 or being lucky enough to be within listening distance of a community station with folk broadcasters like Dave Eyre, Tim Moon, myself and others.

How we three and others balance out our English/Scots/Welsh/Cornish/Irish content is up to us, and I think we represent the interests of our listeners as much as possible - in my case with a bias towards English.

It seems to me that some regional broadcasting policies are stifling our music of whatever flavour.

Never mind awards, let's get the music to the people.

J

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 11:47 AM

Does anyone know the listener numbers for any of the above folk broadcasts?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:12 PM

John, I don't believe a "UK wide" broadcast should "compensate" for what a regional station does/does not provide.

I suppose one could come back to a point a few posts earlier and wonder about an England wide BBC station... but my own feeling is that England are better served with their regions. Certainly when I lived in the Llanduno area, N Wales, I felt a S Wales bias...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

No Jon, I don't think so either - I'm just pointing out that there's more than one way of looking at those stats that Dave P put forward.

England already has the equivalent of the Scottish regional broadcasts in its local radio stations. The problem is that the English broadcasters aren't as good as the Scottish ones (don't know about Wales) at reflecting local minority music interests, even when they're not _that_ minority. I was in BBC Scotland a couple of weeks ago and chatting generally to the people there gave me the feeling that they have a far more inclusive policy with regard to their output than I see displayed in Manchester and this reflects in their music coverage across the Scottish region. I've got no hard facts to back this up - it's just anecdotal evidence and I could be mistaken.

I'm not however, mistaken when I look at what I understand to be the legacy of one BBC man who's moving around the regions closing strands like Henry Ayertons syndicated folk programme, Alistair Anderson's folk programme, the Manchester folk programme (can't remember who was the last presenter - I haven't listened since Mike Billington ran it - Ali O'Brien?).

If the BBC were to concentrate more on providing something different from the 'one size fits all' programming we're subjected to at the moment, we would have more opportunities to hear, disseminate, propogate and celebrate our particular brands of music at grass roots level and not have to worry about whether we need to even things up with another award or two.

Hey ho. Tea break (and rant) over. Back to the marking!

J

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Hi John (A) don't forget to come along to the very English ceilidh by the Boat Band in Swinton in October:-)

Jon - Yes the English did fare rather better than the others in the UK wide broadcast. But remember that there is BBC radio Scotland, BBC radio Wales, BBC radio Nothern Ireland but no BBC radio England. This makes matters even worse than stated previously. While the other components of the UK have their own folk programmes, and indeed their own radio stations, England have nothing at all! Is that fair?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

For your information Celtic Heartbeat

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:26 PM

Further information Travelling Folk

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:37 PM

On the other hand, Cúlán on Radio Ulster seems to be less eclectic.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

There's also about 4 hours per day, Monday to Friday, of Scottish Gaelic music on BBC radio - including plenty of excellent unaccompanied singing, as well as extensive coverage of their annual Mods (folk competitions). Furthermore, on Thursdays nights, the Gaelic language TV programmes, of BBC2 Scotalnd, sometimes have folk-music documentaries, such as a series following students on the Scottish Traditional Music Degree.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

I very rudely omitted wo other singers at the Pigs Ear Fest who do mostly English folk song. Marian Button and Linda Smith are both superb.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

Folk music broadcasting in these areas comes down to a choice of MH on BBC R2 or being lucky enough to be within listening distance of a community station with folk broadcasters like Dave Eyre, Tim Moon, myself and others.

And I am also available to listen on the internet/podcast - so it is not absolutely necessary to be within listening distance.

Anyone wanting to know what I play - I have a perma-thread with the last half dozen or so playlists; on my blog most of what I played since Xmas.

I haven't time to count now since I am driving to Dover overnight (10.30 pm here).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

Folkiedave wrote And I am also available to listen on the internet/podcast - so it is not absolutely necessary to be within listening distance.

.... and that's a great service but it doesn't extend the listenership. The value of your terrestrial broadcast Dave, is that the people who listen before are there at the beginning of your programme to be enticed to stay listening (either by the content or seduced by your dulcet tones ;-)) ) Those people are not going to log on to listen.

My point, amongst all this thread drift, is that we don't need whistles and bells (unless they're integral to the music) to promote English folk music, we just need lots of opportunities for ALL folk music to be heard and have a good chance to include ours in the pool.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM

But remember that there is BBC radio Scotland, BBC radio Wales, BBC radio Nothern Ireland but no BBC radio England.

I believe I acknowledged that Dave.

But where is (when I lived in Wales) our BBC Radio Gwynnedd, Clwydd, Conwy (now - it's a county), tv, (say) Look North, etc.? The English channels are spoilt by region but moan they don't have Radio England. Given the chioce, and having lived in both countries, I;d say the English get a far better deal with regions than a Wales with hmm (largely S Wales) Wales.

Which would you choose?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

(and regions btw cross boundaries, at least to me... What's happening in Manchester or Liverpool could be far more relevant to someone on the N Wales coast to what's happening in Cardiff... And try the journeys... A55/M56 vs A470...)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:35 AM

I think you mis-counted Gene

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM

I don't know how to make the choice, Guest. I have never lived in Wales. On TV there are welsh programmes and Welsh channels so I am not sure what your point is. I know what you mean about largely S Wales though. The North West of England has been ruled by the South East for far too long - At least Wales is on the way to independance!

Maybe we should go back to the old countries? Trouble is I don't know if I live in Mercia or Northumbria! And we would have to re-man Offa's dyke:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 AM

"And we would have to re-man Offa's dyke"

Tempting, tempting...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 AM

...but too early for filth.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:30 AM

OK Dave, I'll try to rephrase it. If, instead of regional broadcasting you had say Radio England, my feeling is that you would find things a bit London centred. I was trying to ask if you had to make the choice (and Wales does not have Radio N Wales or other region) which you would prefer. My personal feeling is that England overall have the better set up on that specific issue.

Anyway, to try to move on from here with my feelings on this and on UK wide broadcasting, what would the chances be of getting the English stations to combine for a sort of "Radio England folk program"?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Jon wrote:
Anyway, to try to move on from here with my feelings on this and on UK wide broadcasting, what would the chances be of getting the English stations to combine for a sort of "Radio England folk program"?

That's akin to what we've lost with the specialist programme cuts. Henry Ayrton's programme was syndicated over a number of local BBC stations around Yorkshire and maybe Lincolnshire. I think Lester Simpson and Mick Peat's present programme is syndicated from Radio Derby (not sure though).

The decision making power isn't necessarily with the individual stations - there seems to be a middle management layer which wields the stick.

I'm extrapolating wildly from the little I actually know, but specialist folk music programming from the BBC seems awfully thin in the north. If we couldn't protect the syndications we had, then extending the idea to cover the whole English region is not going to be easy.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:59 AM

"I think Lester Simpson and Mick Peat's present programme is syndicated from Radio Derby (not sure though)."

Lester and Mick's programme is certainly syndicated to Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

V.good the Simpson and Peat programme is, I think it's on in Lincolnshire too. I listen on the internet in Yorks.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:10 AM

yes, glueman - Tom Lane does the folk diary on Radio Lincoln, but I think Lester and Mick's programme might be on, too...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

WAV, I'm going to be brief, but very blunt. Either organise your own award, or shut up.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

Ahhh - Understand now, Jon. And, yes, I would rather keep Radio Lancashire than have a Radio England. Although given the choice of Radio England and GMR I would go for the former. Since GMR dropped all it's 'specialist' programs and become (yet another) talk radio it as been crap!

Volgadon - That's a bit unfair isn't it? Unless WAV is extemely rich or well connected I doubt if he could get an awards show on the road. I am intrigued by you name though - Both Russian Rivers? One of my Grandfathers was from the Kuban river.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

WAV is certainly not "extremely rich", but, when I get back into work, I shall soon join the EFDSS. In the meantime, if no-one minds, and if no-one already has, I may soon alert them to this thread, and the idea of an EFDSS annual awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb, as suggested above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM

WalkaboutsVerse wrote:

WAV is certainly not "extremely rich", but, when I get back into work, I shall soon join the EFDSS. In the meantime, if no-one minds, and if no-one already has, I may soon alert them to this thread, and the idea of an EFDSS annual awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb, as suggested above.

I am already alerted to the thread and the idea.

Johnny Adams
EFDSS Vice Chair: Promotions

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:34 AM

Ok, that was a little unfair, it would have been better to say do something positive about it instead of whining.

As for the handle, I lived in Volgograd and I lived by the Don. Was your grandfather a Kuban cossack?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:48 AM

Dave Polshaw 15 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM - I have purposely left the played songs off so we do not get into disagreements about whether they were folk songs, what their origins were and so on.

Surely the songs / tunes - are the subject of this thread not the performers.
In my local clubs (at least 14/wk NE England) the majority of players are locals (therefore English) but the songs are split between Scottish, Irish & American with a rare English song. Even more rare is a Welsh song.
Majority of tunes will be Irish with a smattering of Scottish.

From: Folkiedave - You mean like Saltburn and the Fred Jordan Award for unaccompanied traditional singing? Or Satlburn and the singer songwriter competition?
Are these restricted to English material?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

My Grandfather was indeed a Kuban Cossack, Volgadon and, I believe, by paternal link, so are my Father, me and my sons!

The Reverend Zachary Polakow. Married Elithabeth Federow of Bialystok and went to live in her hometown during one of the Stalinist purges. When Russia looked like taking over that part of Poland again at the tail end of WW2 they left for Italy, France and, eventualy, England where he was ordained as a Russian Orthodox priest. He wrote a number of books, none of which I have unfortunately, including one on the betrayal of the Cossacks by the allies after the war.

He died in the early 60's but Elizabeth, my Baboushka, lived until the mid 90s. In 1972 she remarried. My new 'step grandad' was Dimitri Karolkiw, a Colonel and Cossack in the Imperial Russian army until the revolution when he left for the Cossacks old enemies land - Turkey! After travelling through Europe he also finished up in England where him and my Grandad were main supporters of the Free Cossack movement, intent on the liberation of Russia from Communist hands by any means.

Just shows how English I am:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

I can state without fear of contradiction that The Keith Marsden Memorial Trophy presented to the winner of the singer/songwriter competition at Saltburn was won last year by a Scot singing a song about the 1881 Whitby lifeboat rescue of "The Visitor".

So English subject matter but (horror of horrors) won by a Jockess.

I'm looking at the Trophy sat on top of our piano as I type this.....oh and she has a very English surname despite being born in Glasgow.

So would this Scottish upstart be able to enter WAVs "English" folk awards? Would she want to anyway..........

"The Visitor"

I really hate this nationalistic crap though I do like trad English music.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM

Black Hawk - Surely the songs / tunes - are the subject of this thread not the performers

I purposely wanted to avoid that, like I said. Someones birthplace or place of residence is pretty fixed and objective. Songs however are far more fluid and subjective. There are too many folk songs that have travelled all over the world and cannot be tied to a particular country. A particular song could, to butcher a well known line, travel from England, through Ireland and Maine, and then it returns to old England again!

It's all speculative anyway, for now. Lets cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:35 AM

Dave - I agree about the fluidity but my point was that the birthplace of the singer does not dictate what the content is.
Pauls post emphasises this.

Also Paul - the question was 'Are these restricted to English material?' not who / what won (but it is a good song).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

.....oh yes, and I forgot to say, Wendy now lives in England and almost certainly has some African ancestry from a slave brought to these shores in the early 18th century (Skipio Kennedy.... subject of another of her songs).....

.....so WAV and supporters, would she be able to enter "The Visitor" into your most "English" folk awards? What are the rules of eligibility?

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

Black Hawk, yes, point taken.

However this seems a very good illustration of the difficulty and pointlessness of trying to set up "exclusive" folk awards of any kind.

It sets us off down a very dangerous road.....just how "English" do you need to be to enter (and how much more "English" to win)? Would having none "English" ancestry exclude you?......this I believe is where WAV wants to take us.

We've already had the debate (ad nauseum) about how difficult it is to be sure of a tune or song's nationality.

I vote we just forget about this idea or we walk into the arms of the fascists.

More folk (from everywhere) on the radio though please.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:58 AM

I think the question of balance is well worth debate!

But I find WAVs threads egotistical & if not outright racist then bordering on such.

Still waiting an answer on Saltburn rules.

But I must leave work now so will look in tomorrow.

Keep up the debate & dont let WAV grind you down.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

Seems ya have a dilemma.

1) Set the categories (trad, contemporary, singing w/o instruments, whatever)
2) Select judges who are familiar with the music they are judging (trad folks for trad; contemporary for contemporary, etc.)
3) Have the awards
4) Review the first awards night and streamline it for the second awards night

However, the vitriol and narrow mindedness of many people will obstruct what you want to do. IMO, keep them off your committees or they will turn a horse into a camel.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM

"They will turn a horse into a camel." Can't wait to use that line. Nice one!

I like Banjiman's sort of Englishness. Inclusive and not too hung up on petty rules. This has nothing to do with spurious notions of political correctness (the retort that's normally thrown at those in favour of an inclusive approach) and everything to do with the realities of the England that actually exists around us now. The England that has come about as a result of centuries of invasion, immigration, assimilation, exposure to new ideas... you know, the one that's constantly changing, evolving, throwing up new challenges.

So much better than some static fantasyland (that probably never existed outside of the feverish imaginations of Victorian nationalists) where nothing ever changes and people who put store by such things can decide this is English; this isn't; this is English; this isn't; yadda yadda yadda.

And can I congratulate Wendy A on winning at Saltburn? The Visitor is a mighty fine song.

Before you say anything, Richard Bridge, WAV, etc: I'm not anti-English. Just anti nationalist bullshit, as I hopefully would be if I was Welsh, Scottish, Irish or anything elseish.

Humanist, mainly.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Me above. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Not being into Englishness or yet awards (least of all folk awards) I've avoided this one for some days now, but it occurs to me that before one ever thinks of oneself as being English one invariably thinks of oneself as being something else first. In my case I'm an Irish-Northumbrian-Jewish vagabond lately fetched up in Lytham St. Annes; a Geordie born on the banks on the Tyne - certainly within reek of the North Shields fish quay and quite possibly within sight of South Shields too. My grandfather used to tell a tale about a chap who'd lived all his life in Blyth and had cause to cross the Tyne on the Shields ferry when his daughter married South of the Water. Upon reaching that foreign shore he was asked by a local Sand-dancer where he was from and he proudly proclaimed he was, in truth, from England.

I do not tell the tale to deride such colloquialism, rather to illustrate the point that the only time we ever truly become English is when we leave England's shores, carrying a national identity which the rest of the time is ambient at best, content as we are with a more specific personal and regional identity, though it is the truth that wherever you go you're sure to find a Geordie. Last Sunday we attended Holy Mass at the the Roman Catholic National Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham and later that day, some miles away in Wells-next-the-Sea, we met the elderly couple who'd sat behind us during the service, who were, as it turned out, on pilgrimage from Esh Winning, but a mile away from our old home in Waterhouses, County Durham. In Norfolk, this felt significant on various levels, but above all else, one felt an enriching sense of commonality in which it is good to remember the things we share, even in memory; people, places, and even the local post-master!

Whatever the case, I feel one can only truly claim to be a citizen of but two places - the comfort of ones own skin & the surface of Planet Earth which gives us the atmospheric pressure and oxygen so essential to the maintenance of life & bodily integrity. The rest is a bonus, of course, but nothing to get too hung up upon, one would hope, though one might ponder to what extent the impoverishment of regional identity might result in the somewhat distorted picture of Nationhood that pervades certain of these threads. It's as if we're catching a glimpse of ourselves reflected in an all too imperfect mirror, one which renders grotesque the whole notion of England and the English, enlarging this and shrinking that, reflecting only what it wants to reflect whilst filtering the rest of it out, for whatever reason. But just a glimpse, then gone, forever...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"Little Bo Peep is a laugh a minute isn't she! "

Yup, unlike some here I do have a sense of humour

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:32 PM

"Keep up the debate & dont let WAV grind you down."
and don't let others do the same thing. The old saying of those that can, do etc.. etc..

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:36 PM

Great idea, really, and so simple. English Folk Awards. All you have to do is:
1) Decide what you mean by English.
2) Decide what you mean by Folk.
3) Decide what kind of Award you are going to have.
Go for it(but I'll not stay up)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

I won't be holding my breath waiting for any "English" Folk Music Awards anytime soon.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Will a gentle pat on the back and a quietly murmured, "Well done, old chap/old gel/old bean," not do the job handsomely?

Stiff upper lip and all that, d'you see?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:50 PM

"Great idea, really, and so simple. English Folk Awards. All you have to do is:
1) Decide what you mean by English.
2) Decide what you mean by Folk.
3) Decide what kind of Award you are going to have.
Go for it(but I'll not stay up)"

OK.

But, if y'all let someone else do it first then THEY get to define the terms.

You do NOT require anyone's permission or definitions. YOU (whoever YOU is in this context) simply require to do it. The trad folk will have their say; the contemporary will have theirs. Hell, ya may even have songwriters who have a category. I think too many people are hung up on definitions. That AIN'T where it's at, IMO. It's about music, and I have never needed anyone to tell me what I like. Definitiions or not. So take your music away from those who want to pigeonhole it. It's YOUR music, not just theirs.

Greg--this post is NOT directed at you.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:26 AM

Has common sense won the day on this one now?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Blind Cowman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:35 AM

It had until you brought it up again.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:47 AM

Fair point.....why are you hiding behind a guest name?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

Another point worth bringing up, then: if there has been a bias against English culure, then WHY?...
There seems to be some living within the borders of England who don't want such things as a Degree in English Folk Music, an English folk radio programme, an English folk awards, or the Arts Council of England to promote more English culture. E.g., Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"; I, however, having repatriated more than a decade ago, am sure that we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time. Many Scots HAVE linked Scottish folk to Scottish nationalism - I support them, and think the same should occur here in England.
As I've also said here, nationalism with conquest is bad, but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via a stronger UN, is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Lonely Goatherd
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

Now look what you've done Banjiman!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:32 AM

"Now look what you've done Banjiman!!!"

A reply to the Physically (and Emotionally) Challenged Animal Gatherer,

SORRY!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

Who said there was any bias against English culture? English folk may not get a fair share of media exposure and the ad men love to take the piss out of old traditions but does that equate to bias against English culture? I think not. Bias against implies some sort of movement to stamp it out and I have bever come across any such thing.

Dave.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

it's not that we are actively against a Degree in English Folk Music, an English folk radio programme, an English folk award, or an Arts Council of England, we just don't see the need for them.

We already have all these things, albeit none of them exclusively English. We can argue over whether or not they're doing a good job, but on the whole I find them more interesting than something taking a more narrow view.

For example, Mike Harding plays too much Irish and American music on his programme for my taste, but if he were restricted to only English music then a lot of other good stuff wouldn't get played. Unlike WAV, I don't feel that the other good stuff is a threat to my Englishness or enjoyment of English music.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:34 AM

Howard Jones said:

"Unlike WAV, I don't feel that the other good stuff is a threat to my Englishness or enjoyment of English music."

I agree entirely.

WAV.....can you answer my question above about just how "English" you would need to be to take part in your "English" folk awards? I used my other half and one of her songs as an example? .....or should she just be sent back to Scotland (or Africa as she has some 300 yr old African blood)?

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM

"if he (Mike Harding) were restricted to only English music then a lot of other good stuff wouldn't get played." (HJ)...but if you get the BBC digital radio channels (which will soon be necessary for any TV) there's plenty of "other good stuff", as noted above by others and me, Howard.

To Banjiman - for what it's worth, I think "The Visitor" is a good self-penned English folk song, and I hope you and yours put your skills into E. trads, also.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:43 AM

Whether there's a need for it or not Howard, there most certainly IS an Arts Council for England: Arts Council England actually.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:07 AM

"To Banjiman - for what it's worth, I think "The Visitor" is a good self-penned English folk song, and I hope you and yours put your skills into E. trads, also."

Wendy says thanks for that WAV........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it be eligible for your "English" folk awards?

Indeed we sing and play English, Scottish, Irish and American (and we'd probably do Russian/ Japanese or Punjabi if we wanted to) trad (and self penned and other contemporary songs)........which is the whole point. Good songs, things and people come form all over the globe....and should be allowed free movement and the chance to make their way wherever.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:27 AM

A quick look at my myspace Top Friends will make it clear that I too APPRECIATE "Good songs, things and people come form all over the globe", Banjiman.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

Yes but do you appreciate all traditional / world music, or just that in which the music performed and the performer are of the same national origin?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

WAV.....please answer the question:

"........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it ("The Visitor") be eligible for your "English" folk awards?"

Thanks

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

I have never heard of something so absurd
As feeling pride about an accident of birth

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

Walk away while you can-this guy doesn't answer questions-just keeps linking back to the beginning of his website.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

"........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it ("The Visitor") be eligible for your "English" folk awards?" (Banjiman/citternman..?)...Yes, as I said, it's a self-penned English folk song, and, as a couple, you two abide in England now.
To Joe: I'm abiding in, rather than visiting, England, now, so I practise/perform English songs and hymns, whilst listening to others from around the world.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

Thank you for answering a straight question WAV...... so why call them "English" why try and sort things on nationalistic lines? These are false divisions that breed unhealthy competition & war. Why would it matter if we lived in Scotland and Wendy had written the same song.....or if she was from Hong Kong?

I really don't feel our culture is under so much threat (in fact it is constantly enriched by mixing with other cultures) that we have to pull up the drawbridges and try to be exclusive. .....why do you think this is important? I would be grateful if you don't refer me back to your life's work but gave me a straight answer on this one as well.

Thanks

By the way, I wouldn't know where to start with a cittern.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

To Banjiman: it's not just in England, of course, where folks are singing with American, rather than their own, accents, performing the music of other nations, etc.; but I can't think of any nation where this process is occuring more than it is in England - Show of Hands, e.g., may not agree with me on everything, but they have also felt the urge to at least try and do something about it, hence, "Roots".

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

WAV repeats, yet again, "I too APPRECIATE "Good songs, things and people come form (sic) all over the globe."

as long as those good things stay where they are and don't dare come to England. A variation WAV's old I love multiculturalism (as long as England is multicultural).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

"Fair point.....why are you hiding behind a guest name?"

Simple, beause this sort refuses to take responsibility for their postings, therefore the said postings have no validity whatsoever.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Volgadon said, " Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?"

Oh it's not just me who thinks that then? I was beginning to wonder :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Blind Cowman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Volgadon, your last post had no validity. Your sort should take responsibility for your postings. Yet - the mutton and jeff one agreed with it. She's flocking barmy.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

Oh right here' the master of not taking responsibility, Mr Blind Cowman or should that read coward?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

That's true, you two: they do lean a bit toward America in their style as they tell us to lean back toward England - I did, for what it's worth, say we "may not agree with me on everything", above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Wait a sec, though I don't particulary care for them, I didn't say that SoH's entire set lists and recordings leant towards the American (they don't), Volgadon and I said that ONE song sounded vaguelt countryish, so please don't bother, you're only wasting your time

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

Bollocks WAV. "As they tell us to lean back toward England." What in gods name does that mean. Who's next on your little calvacade of non-English English? Ralph McTell? Richard Thompson? Sandy Denny? Steve Ashley? Jacqui McShee? Steve Tilston?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

irishenglish, why do I have the sinking feeling that WAV has never heard of Jacqui McShee, Steve Ashley or Steve Tilston (he'll likely now look them up on Wikipedia, and profess knowledge of them) Sandy Denny, Richard Thompson and Ralph McTell he'll likely say are FAR too pop music :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:08 PM

Actually he'll probably say that Ralph Mctell shouldn't have changed his name! May is much more of a proper English name!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, IE, but doesn't one of the lines in "Roots" go - "we've lost more than we'll ever know"?
To DS: if you had read this thread, you'd know that I do listen, mostly via satellite, to quite a lot of folk/acoustic radio so, of course, I've heard of those on IE's list.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

Whatever you say WAV, whatever you say...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:35 PM

You think no one else but the English can feel like we've lost more than we'll ever know? Put that in any context, virtually anywhere in the world and put that quote to work and let me know what you come up with. Here's a few for you-the environment, war, the economy, wildlife,transportation. See? Broad concepts, taken across the board where we have lost more than we'll ever know. What's particularly ENglish about those WAV? What's particularly English about how we as a modern society fix those problems? Oh, I know-it's a Show Of Hands song! Of course they do have a song called It's All Your Fault, so I guess if we accept the morality lessons of Show Of Hand's songs then it's all your fault WAV.

By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM

What I've enjoyed listening to the most (so much so that I wore it out) is a tape called "Voices" - all E. trads sung unaccompanied by various English folkies.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

"By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book."

Oh goodness me, Steve Knightley was accused of 'singing in the wrong accent' a VERY long time ago 'irishenglish', by an er...English Traditionalist in here (not WAV)

It led to The War of the Words, so best not to mention that too loudly in here. ;-)

Great to hear that you like their music though.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

The 'Voices' collection was put together and produced by Paul Adams who felt that the English Tradition had been neglected by the World / Roots music movement of the late 1980's. Fair enough. Paul Adams did something about his opinion by compiling this CD.

An object lesson, I think

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

viewing sex over a thicket:
hole in one,for once well timed.
viewing a man having sex with a bike.
an english tradition enshrined.
[dedicated to original poster,in the style of the great Walstzabout verse]

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Well, the last record I made was all English tunes. So I should be in WAV's good books. But what happens if he finds a copy of the previous one I made, which was all cajun and creole tunes, and featured JC Gallow,a black musician from Mamou, Louisiana.My, I'll be called to the headmaster's study!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Thank You, Captain, a very touching (as it were :-D) tribute to a truly ummmm...well to a noted poet.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Forty lashes with a wet noodle, Greg.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

I noticed the following will be at The Sage, Gateshead, ENGLAND, in September...Folkworks, BBC Radio Scotland's Young Traditional Musician of the Year 2008 Tour...BUT we still don't have a junior nor senior ENGLISH Folk Awards!...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:16 AM

Look, an easy solution WAV.

Write to all the people you like - tell them they are all jolly good chaps. Publish the results of your deliberations for this year, on the internet and in the folk press.

Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. Act unilaterally, I would.

You're obviously getting nowhere talking to us old 'stick in the muds'.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

"An English Folk Awards..?"

That would require that the award committee define folk. THAT is an opportunity NOT to be missed.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM

No worries Bruce - WAV is quite capable of doing ALL that, all on his own.....!

Clever chap, the folk revival is safe in his hands. There is no time like the present, and I think I can speak for all when I say we await with bated breath the outcome of his industry.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:28 PM

I wouldn't say we're "getting nowhere," WLD...but the most likely way we'll get an English folk awards for an English nation is by default - sensible Scots, at least, are moving more-and-more toward independence, and God's speed to them.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

WAV, don't you mean THE English folk awards, or just English folk awards? As a poet, try to respect your native tongue a little more.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

Well I think it should be left to WAV to choose the title of the awards he has initiated. Don't start nitpicking Volgadon, let him get on with it.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

I said AN English folk awards, Volgadon, as they are yet to exist - we have, rather British folk awards, and Scottish folk awards, but no English folk awards.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

What exactly would be the criteria for the nominees then?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

well that's up to Wav. Its his idea.

An English Folk Awards - so what you're proposing is (correct me if I'm wrong):-

THE ENGLISH FOLK AWARDS

great! Get on with it and tell us when you've sorted it all out. We are agog.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:23 PM

That will do, WLD - with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:32 PM

C'mon WAV - does the musician have to be English, or the music played?

Hmm, but then it all goes back to how you define English. I mean, would English Banghra musicians be excluded?

We need some solid input here to get a flavour of the idea.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

An English folk awards for English folk musicians, singers and, yes, dancers, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:46 PM

WAV, you quite simply can't use a,an for plurals.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

I can see you were brought up on First Aid in English - Volgadon.

a brown as a .....
as black as .......
as sweet as......

So what I suggest is WAV old chap. Close down the thread. Make up your roster of fame. And start another thread.
Publish and be damned. And send a press release to Rock and reel and Froots and The English Ping Pong and Prance gang.

You've got something in mind, do it.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher said, Ours not reason why - ours but to eat the pie!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

...a pie supper could be included at the event, WLD.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

You work it out, and let us all know. It sounds very promising!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Ah WAV, how could I have missed this tasty little gem of yours.
"with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings... "

Unfortunately, the covers and self penned contradicts things you have said on here previously. Unless of course you have worked out all the stipulations and exceptions that would have to be applied. Where does Flook fall into this grouping then? How about when Martin Simpson is joined on his Kind Letters album by Danu? So....Michael McGoldrick, who has played across the boards with English, Irish, and Scottish musicians falls into what category? Can you get special dispensation if your album has 10 English things and one Irish, or does it have to be 100% English as defined by you? Covers? Does that mean someone from Ireland or Newfoundland can win an ENGLISH FOLK AWARD if they do a really great cover of an English song? Wow! maybe we have chipped away at you a bit. Self penned? Alright! Put the Killers up for a folk award then! I'm sure I could quantify that as folk music.

So here's the breakdown then I think WAV

Musicians have to have an unbroken lineage of verifiable English ancestry of not less than 500 years

Musicians up for the covers award can only be included if a) the previous rule applies, and b)that the song being covered is a 100% verifiable English song. It can have no other variants from elsewhere, nor can it contain any geographical, political, or historical reference to anywhere but England. (Scotland and Wales do not apply either)

Self penned numbers can ONLY be about a distinct English subject matter, ie, Marmite, Watney's Red Barrel, The Grenadier Guards, Manchester United, and so on. Self penned numbers must be in one of the approved English dialects only, and contain only recognizable regional slang.

In addition, all instruments used for the performances of any of the above mentioned categories must have their origin in England, and be made in England. No Italian melodeons, Martin Guitars, Irish bodhrans, etc.

Is it something like that WAV?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

Erm, well I'm half-Welsh, so can I enter my version of 'Chicken on a Raft'?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Nope sorry stigweard! Try Eurovision!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Oh let him get on with it! You'll all be pissed off and crawling up his bum if it takes off like the Oscars.

an't be any worse than the radio 2/ folk event of the decade/proms/oh shit theres no audience/non events.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

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Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:23 AM

Look, you are all being rather silly.

There are plenty of Irish championships for this or that part of Irish folk culture, and AFAIK if the panel/judge(s) don't think something is "close enough" it doesn't win prizes. Correct me if I'm wrong but the English can enter - they just (like Dick Miles) have to play eligible stuff in the preferred way and sometimes (also like him, according to his posts) sometimes they get marked down for playing the "wrong" instrument.

Borderline definitional issues do not negate the idea. The Irish competition system has contributed (it seems to me) to the revival and survival of much Irish folk culture. I may not want to listen to it but I am of the view that it is good to have it surviving and being played and enjoyed.

I have not seen so much about the Scottish system, but I do know they have piping competitions where teh judges debate the incomprehensible such s tendencies to hurry down one's pibrochs. I assume they contribute to the survival of the piping tradition.

The Welsh have thier Eisteddfodds (hmm not sure about that spelling) and I am relatively confident that they include some sorts of bardic competitions.

So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM

"So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?"

I think it'd be a great idea if, as you say it works on the Irish model where ability and understanding of the music are the key attributes a competitor requires for entry. However, WAV is typically evasive when it comes to who could enter, and that raises suspicions - not unreasonable.

Anyhow, I'm off to practice my English tunes on my Irish bouzouki.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

200

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:43 AM

Richard ,is quite right,the Irish tradition has survived,through the competition system,the down side is that Comhaltas through their marking system,have encouraged a certain style of playing.
ironically,they intended to preserve the music,but they have in fact intentionally altered it,to the detriment of certain regional styles,the plus side is thet, at any regional as well as national fleadh,it is a focus point,for thousands of musicians to get together and play.
of course,when Isuggested a competition or even examination system,some eighteen months ago,I was laughed to scorn,on this forum.
John Adams,even went so far as to take the piss out of my name.
Comhaltas do receive considerably more money than the EFDSSS,but this was not always the case,from 1951 to approximately 1966,they had to make do with very little government support.
I personally would be in favour of EFDSS reintroducing The competition system,yes, they used to do it.
It certainly has contributed to the strength of Irish traditional music.
however, I would suggest a slightly different marking system on tunes,one where ornamentation is not given more marks,than rhythm or danceability.
Comhaltas do have one or two eccentric rules,such as the non allowance of tunes in 3/4,the non allowance of english song translation from the Irish,such as Ned ofthe hill.but overall most people apart from[it would seem] Jim Carroll,enjoy the fleadhs,and treat it as agreat oppurtunity to meet up and play music with old friends.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:39 AM

How many times do we have to have the same arguments on this forum? Does it not start to feel like a flippin' Beckett play?

Yes - I know i've said that before.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:44 AM

Yes, as with many threads, Ruth, there has been repetition here, but I, for one , have just heard something new - Dick says the EFDSS have run comps in the past...Members, other than Ruth, have visited this thread before - I wonder is anything afoot?...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

It is a Beckett play.
or perhaps its the third policeman,we are all gradually turning into a computer.
the EFDSS competitions took place a long time ago,WAV ,in the days when EFDSS used to successfully run folk festivals and have flourishing branches.
then one day rather like Dr Beeching and his draconian cutting of railway branches,they decided to get rid of their branches,and they decided they couldnt afford to run festivals any more,at the same time/or shortly after, they insisted that Cecil Sharp house,should not be sold,despite its heavy cost to maintain.
the trouble is if you deprive a tree of all its branches,its in danger of dying.
fair play to the present organisers/Volunteers they seem to be bringing at least a temporary come back to EFDSS,which I hope becomes permanent.I wish them every success with their efforts.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

I guess before Beeching, Dick, it was possible to make a train day-trip to the Lake District from Newcastle, as I used to do from Bolton...would be nice. And I share your hopes for the EFDSS.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

I used to work in this school in Newtown in Brum, a Comp. Next to the comp was a tower of office block and EFDSS had an office there. One dinnertime I went to see this place, as I had a folk club in Castle Brom and I knew everybody in every folk club at the time. I thought there might be some confluence of interest.

I was told to get out, visitors weren't allowed. The EFDSS had nothing to do with folk clubs - they had no time for us and just for good measure - get out again.

I've never really bothered with them since. I'm sure they have something to pass on.   I've heard all the legends of the Watersons kipping in their library etc. since then.

But I've always thought since then that theres an unhealthy tendency in the folk movement generally to tell ordinary folk they can get stuffed, and that they are of no account. from whence does it flow....well I've got my suspicions.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

I've never been to the EFDSS in London, but would like to check, in particular, those recordings you mention, WLD. I think the folk clubs and festival singarounds in NE England are generally encouraging to non-familiar faces. On the other hand, it does seem very difficult for anyone to make a living if they are not in the BBC's "club."

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

The EFDSS DID hold a songwriting competition a couple of years back, to be fair. Though, erm, on second thoughts that probably isn't the kind of competition most contributors here have in mind! A competition for performance and/or arrangement of English trad folk songs sounds like a perfectly good idea, provided it was open to all-I'd certainly enter.

(you can take that as a warning...:^)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 05:49 AM

Nothing wrong with learning from the Scots and their folk awards, of course. I hope one day soon their's is broadcasted by an SBC, and our's by an EBC.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:18 AM

...and nothing wrong with learning from the Nepalese either, and dissolving the monarchy here...

Poem 225 of 230: AFTER PSALM 118:9 AND MATTHEW 4:8-10

The monarchies
    Now are blasphemies -
The only born-ruler
    Is a God-chosen Schooler.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:17 AM

WAV, the monarchy has been part of good old English culture for a lot longer than tennis and country dances!!!!! Tsk tsk.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:58 AM

"most people apart from[it would seem] Jim Carroll,enjoy the fleadhs,"
Cap'n,
I do wish you wouldn't make (in this case extremely inaccurate) statements on my behalf.
I have never discussed my experiences of nor attitude to fleadhs with you, so please be good enough to leave me out of your ramblings.
For the record, one of the most memorable fleadhs I ever attended was the one at Listowel back in the early 1970s when the leadership cancelled the proceedings in support of the troubles that had just broken out in the North of Ireland (yet another crackpot political/sectarian decision on their part) - no competitions, so the musicians who had turned up went ahead anyway and played purely for the love of the music - wonderful.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:46 AM

I've enjoyed coverage, via satellite, of the Mods from Scotland, but not the fleadhs...is it a similar thing?