Folklore: Pewter Tankards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

"Mr. Olesko obviously fails to recognize this distinction. "

You are right Q, I fail to recognize that distinction -and most dictionaries, brewers and culinary experts would agree with me.   Read any of the late Michael Jackson's books and you will see that what I am saying is correct.

I'm not quite sure what bug has crawled up your butt Q, but you are dead wrong and you are making assinine assumptions about me for which you have no knowledge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Marje
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM

I don't think I'd regard Webster's as an authority on ale/beer terminology as it applies in the UK. I'd prefer to consult CAMRA, who explain it most clearly and eloquently here:

http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=100330 (sorry, can't do Blickies)

AS this shows, CAMRA coined the "Real Ale" tag at a time when real (cask-conditioned) ales were being replaced by tasteless and heavily promoted keg beers, and the "real" ones were simply unavailable in large areas of the UK, a trend which has seen a huge and welcome reversal.

As to the strength, real ales vary quite a bit - the average may be about 4% alcohol, but the normal ales range from about 3.5 to 5.5, with "Special" brews, perhaps at Xmas, appearing with 7 or 8% alcohol.

And now back to the trousers - having removed my patchwork ones, I am off to see my tailor to be fitted for some sleek modern trousers in keeping with my age and lifestyle. this will include some elastic at the waist, to allow for future ale consumption.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

Oh please, let's not turn this into another 'more session rudeness' slanging match thread - that is tedious beyond belief!

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

Marje - Thanks for posting the link to CAMRA.

I think their definition is one that most people would agree with:

"What's the difference between 'ale' and other beers?

There are a huge range of different beer styles, each with different qualities, tastes and strengths, but each falls into one of two main categories; ale or lager. The key difference between ales and lagers is the type of fermentation. Fermentation is the process which turns the fermentable sugars in the malt into alcohol and carbon dioxide. Lagers are made using bottom-fermenting yeast which sinks to the bottom of the fermenting vessel and fermentation takes place at a relatively low temperature. Authentic lagers then undergo a long period of cooled conditioning in special tanks. Ales, which includes bitters, milds, stouts, porters, barley wines, golden ales and old ales, use top-fermenting yeast. The yeast forms a thick head on the top of the fermenting vessel and the process is shorter, more vigorous and carried out at higher temperatures than lager. This is the traditional method of brewing British beer."

British beer. Very well done!   CAMRA deserves a lot of credit as their influence has spread around the world and I think helped our own brewing revolution in the U.S.   I am glad to see that they are pushing traditional styles (note that is plural) and recognizing the various styles.   What you may be served in your local pub is probably the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

Ah, that elastic in the waistband! An important consideration as time adds increments. I think I have a few pairs that ought to go to the thrift store.
May you ever have a container* of your favorite near at hand.
*tankard seems to be objectionable to some.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

When I lived in the UK there was a tradition that pewter tankards all came with bearded eejits attached to the handle
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

Hooray for beer. Isn't it amazing what happens to an argument when you say "Oh, I think it's my round... what's everyone having?"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

Bought a heavy pewter tankard for 1 euro in a Spanish car boot sale, whatever I put in it ale, beer, lager tastes lovely.
Cheers and Squeezy;;; mines a pint!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:02 PM

Bottled Ale
This from a Gammer Gurton Nursery rhyme booklet, Glasgow, about 1810:

Without teeth it bites
Without tongue it sings
It foams without anger
And flies without wings.

I have found a 'song' called "A Tankard of Ale," but it may not be the one in the Bodleian Collection, mentioned above.

Lyr. Add: A TANKARD OF ALE

Ale that the absent battle fights,
And fames the march of Swedish drums
Disputes the princes' lawes and rights,
And what is past, and what's to come,
Tells mortal wights.

Ale that the plowman's heart upkeeps,
And equals it with Tyrants' thrones;
That wipes the eye that overweepes,
And lulls in sweet and dainty sleepes
His wearied bones.

Grandchilde of Ceres, Barlie's daughter,
Wine's emulus neighbor, if but stale;
Innobling all the nymphs of water,
And filling each man's heart with laughter-
Hah! give me ale!

A Tankard of Ale- online songbook.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/tankard-ale/tankard-ale%20-%200194.htm
(Hidden under another title; not in the index)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: meself
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 PM

And who said, "A pint of plain is your only man"? Your only man indeed!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:47 AM

A famous Flann O'Brien poem:
The Workmans Friend
        
When things go wrong and will not come right, Though you do the best you can,
When life looks black as the hour of night-
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOU ONLY MAN.

When Money's tight and is hard to get
And your horse has also ran,
When all you have is a heap of debt-
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN.

When health is bad and your heart feels strange,
And your face is pale and wan,
When doctors say that you need a change,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN

When food is scarce and your larder bare
And no rashers grease your pan,
When hunger grows as your meals are rare-
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN.

In time of trouble and lousy strife,
You have still got a daring plan,
You still can turn to a brighter life-
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN.

There's a fourth stanza later in the book where the cowboy Furriskey (I think) parodies the Song of the Mad King Sweeney, but to find out why the cowboys of Ringsend, Sweeney, the Good Fairy and the Pooka McPhellimey

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:48 AM

..continues after finger trouble

are plotting the downfall of an author, you'll have toi read At Swim Two Birds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:18 AM

When stags appear on the mountain high,
with flanks the colour of bran,
when a badger bold can say good-bye,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this, having nabbed it off the internet on account of most of my library presently being in storage, but it sounds about right.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:20 AM

Jim Carroll... although I have to admit, at my particular age, to a VERY slight increase in facial hair, I am not a 'bearded eejit', despite owning several pewter and silver tankards in a variety of styles, size, age and condition.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:24 AM

And as for me, I have'nt got a beard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:18 AM

But does anyone still brew 'plain'? In Brian O'Nolan's time it was the cheaper, lower-strength stout - session stout, you might say. (The full name of Guinness is Guinness Extra Stout.) A definite gap in the market - for the bitter drinker, at least, my experience suggests that a session on Guinness or even Murphy's is not a good idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Zen
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:23 AM

I agree Phil...

When things go wrong and will not come right
Though you do the best you can
When life looks black as the hour of night
A pint of plain is yer only man

from Myles na gCopaleen

Zen

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

For a while, in the last couple of years, Guinness were producing something called Guinness Red. This was somewhere between a stout and a bitter (sounds somehow not quite right to me, but never knock something till you've tried it I say...). I never got to try it, but it was specifically aimed at those who found Guinness Extra Stout too heavy. I've never seen it on sale anywhere and I've no idea if it's still in production or not. Possibly a sign that it didn't capture it's target audience...?

I quite like some of the lower alcohol Porter Ales. But it seems that the lighter ones don't get the same interest as the heavier ones and over the last decade, I've not seen a Porter under 5%BV. A bit of a shame as they can be a very satisfying and almost refreshing pint.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

Liz,
Have read many of your postings and am well aware of your mental capabilities - will have to take your word regarding your hirsute condition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

For those who don't know, I feel obliged to point out here that Flann O'Brien and Myles na gGopaleen are the two names that Brian O'Nolan wrote under. For more on this, see what Wiki has to say.

I was served up a pint of ale in Lytham recently, in lieu of the Bombardier which was off, that was getting on for a stout I'd say. Can't remember what it was, but it went down a treat with the steak and ale pie...

When the Bombardier cask's ran dry
and you're out with the wife in Lytham St Annes,
When you're tucking into some brick of a pie,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Stereotypical? Moi?

Well, at least I'm not wearing panchromatic trousers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

What, like THESE LITTLE BEAUTIES?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Me above

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Not sure how I forgot this, since I drank it three weeks ago -

Grainstore Brewery Rutland Panther, 3.8%
According to the beer festival programme, "Black brew with drinkability of mild or light bitter, combined with roast flavours associated with stout."

According to me, that's pretty much what it was - a light, even slightly thin texture and not too much alcohol, but with the look and taste of stout. Could catch on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

At the recent Folk on the Coast fest I sampled some of the local Trapper's Hat, only 3.8% but very quaffable. Tried it in a glass & a pewter tankard tasted lovely!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

I've just googled 'Trapper's Hat'.

Top tip: don't google 'Trapper's Hat'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

Gawd bless the Urban Dictionary!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Aeola
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Google it and look on page 2

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,cdavies
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Any advice welcome on the REAL possibility on getting lead poisoning from antique pewter tankard!!! What do you think? Yay or nay?!
Sorry if stupid question....i aint that bright...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:23 PM

If you drink a strong cider (and an awful lot of it) then maybe, yes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

what about a horn cup?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: romany man
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM

aint no lead in horn, is there, vt,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

I was suggesting it as an alternative to pewter for Cider drinkers. Would horn hold up under the acidity of Cider?

Antique pewter - I would not drink from. Just as I won't put consumables in glazed pottery (cups, mugs, bowls) from China because there are no regs on lead in glazing.

I got bagfuls of natural stupid. I don't need to go augmenting it with poison.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

Lots of interesting points here . My mom's family was in the clipper ship business out of Salem and she had a great collection of pewter mugs . The glass bottom ones she said were considered more useful because when one said "bottoms up" ; you could also say "Heres looking at you " and all knew not to pull a gun or knife. We had some beautiful makers here in New England my two favorites were Danforth of Meriden Connecticut and Boardmen (I think of Boston first) Both families were working in the eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries . The great London makers might not be what your talking about for folkies at pubs because you could sell a good English Pewter mug for enough money to buy a martin and gibson in the same breath .. All the best to all here ..

Yours Guy   p.s.

Early pottery (and Leather) stynes were often called "cans" at a particular measure of liquid .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Aeola
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:21 PM

Never mind pewter,... try a nice crystal tankard!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:08 PM

I use a lead-loaded pewter tankard,(bought for the pricely sum of £5 at Whitby this year) because of its shape. I dance a lot at festivals and got fed up of my plastic glass being spilt so easily. The tankard is broader at the base and has more weight. This is also cheaper than my "posh" tankard which I use (for similar reasons) at home! Besides, it gets me points with the folk police!

Re the ale/beer controversy, ale was the original English brew until hops were introduced as flavouring in the 16th (I think) century when the term "beer" came in to distinguish the new drink from the older one. "Carp, turkeys, hops and beer came to England all in one year" if I remember the jingle correctly. It's a good story anyway!
Cheers all!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/Pewter_Guide.shtml

Accourding to this authority, (see blue clicky above), there is little or no lead in pewter drinking vessels. So you can use them for any drink you care to imbibe.

As for the glass bottom, I was always told it so that you could see if you were being tricked into 'taking the Kings shilling'. Fact or fable?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

Sorry, that lasty post is me. I seem to have lost my identity!

K/van

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Michael
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM

"Would horn hold up under the acidity of Cider?"

Am I the only one who thought of priapism?
Mike

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 AM

snerk... Michael.... heh heh heh

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:02 PM

hops - roman if not earlier
carp - after monastic ponds for the table 'wild' carp supplanted by imported hybrid cyprinids
turkey - dunno but edwardian on any scale
beer - definition?

Never seen the attraction of pewter aesthetically or practically. Sets yer bloomin' teeth on edge. However I'm enjoying a rather fine single malt from an Aldi hipflask as I write so each to their own.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Matt - with his new tankard
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:11 PM

I'd like to know if my stainless steel tankard can be used for hot drinks like Tea or Coffee.
Obviously I can't drink alcohol at work and I use it most at work so it has to be either water, juice or (hopefully) tea.
Can anyone Advise?

Cheers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:22 PM

Matt -

Stainless Steel is a chemical neutral metal. It does not react.

If it is stainless - it is obviously not Pewter....which contains lead and tin and perhaps chromium etc.

You can drink ANYTHING - acid/base/ from a stainless container (unless of course ... said container was made in China where the laws and regulations of alchemy do not apply.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: open mike
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 02:50 AM

Tankards--From: glueman - PM - Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:47 AM -
BTW, that hasn't even begun to exhaust my bile on the topic
but it's the glorious 16th today and I'm off to kill worms.


what is the reference here? to me worms are equated with tequila...??

and what is the importance of June 16th?

thankfully, my secret santa sent a tankard...
my former pewter one was lost in a fire..
does pewter have a lower melting temp. than
other metals?

i have taken my "ram's horn" pewter tankard
to renaissance faires where it has become
fashionable to wear bowls, cups and spoons
hanging from one's waist/belt..as a fashion
accessory as well as utilitarian object.

in Swedish/Scandinavian culture the beveredge
vessel was an ale horn -- supposedly brought
to warriors in Valhalla...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:02 PM

If you drink hot drinks from your tankard you'll burn your lip, unless you like your tea and coffee tepid.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM

Each time I've been to the Saturday night singaround, of the Durham Folk Party, at the Rowing Club, a couple have entered to listen and drink from tankards.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

I loved my tankard and supped hmmmm ... rather a lot of ale out of it for over 30 years - till it was stolen from my car a few years ago :o(

A standard simple pewter tankard from about 1800 it had a touchmark of 3 'saracen' swords and bore the incription in flowing script -

I W Kemp
The Crown
Narrow St.
Limehouse

If anyone ever comes across it I would dearly love to be re-united.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,TJ
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM

Strange; no one has mentioned a "Drinking Gourd." Of course, I'm told they make ale taste like dried pumpkin or some such...and so hard to clean.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

From various sources.

While the term pewter covers a range of tin-based alloys, the term English pewter has come to represent a strictly-controlled alloy, specified by BSEN611-1 and British Standard 5140, consisting mainly of tin (ideally 92%), with the balance made up of antimony and copper. Significantly, it is free of lead and nickel. Although the exact percentages vary between manufacturers, a typical standard for present-day pewter is approximately 91% tin, 7.5% antimony and 1.5% copper.

From the 15th century onwards, the composition of English pewter was carefully protected by the Worshipful Company of Pewterers in London. The Company required that the finest quality English pewter contain at least 94% tin, with the balance made of other metals including lead. Lead was removed from the composition in 1974, by BS5140, reinforced by the European directive BSEN611 in 1994.

Until the end of the 18th century, the only method of manufacture was by casting and the soldering of components [almost all solder at the time would have had a considerable lead content]. From the last quarter of the 18th century, improvement in alloys and techniques allowed objects to be made from pewter by stamping and spinning

It was known as " fyne peauter " and used for dishes, saucers, platters, chargers, and for all " things that they make square," such as cruets, chrismatories, &c., which owing either to the rough usage they would be submitted to, or to the sharpness of their angles, called for greater toughness in the material . The recipe for this alloy as originally propounded was as much brass to the tin " as it wol receiuve of his nature," but the lack of precision in this perhaps rendered it difficult to distinguish accidental variations from deliberate adulteration, and in 1474–1475 it was resolved that 26 lb of brass must be mixed with every hundredweight of tin. The penalties for infringement of the rules were severe and frequently enforced, but in spite of them alterations and improvements crept in. The chief and perhaps the earliest of these was the addition of a certain proportion of bismuth, or as it was then called " tin glass." When this was first used is not recorded, but by 1561 it was accepted as a matter of course; in 1630 a maker " was found in fault for not sufficiently tempering his metal with tin glass "; and in 1653 it was ordered that 3 lb weight of tin glass at least must be mixed with every 100 lb of tin.

Antimony was subsequently introduced—though there is no mention of it in the records of the Pewterers' Company—sometimes alone as in tin and temper (r.6 to 150 parts) and trifle (17 parts to 83 of tin)—sometimes with other metals as in hard metal (96 parts of tin, 8 of antimony and 2 of copper), a mixture very closely resembling that still used under the name of " Britannia metal," an alloy composed approximately of 93 percent tin, 5 percent antimony, and 2 percent copper, used for making various utensils, including teapots, jugs, drinking vessels, candlesticks, and urns, and for official maces. Similar in colour to pewter, britannia metal is harder, stronger, and easier to work than other tin alloys; it can be worked from sheets, like silver, or spun on a lathe. The alloy is first mentioned in 1769, as "Vickers White Metal," but it was during the 19th century that the advantages of britannia metal were appreciated.

Lots of lead, therefore in antique pewter but none in modern pewter and no mention of cadmium anywhere. Acids in liquids would certainly leach copper out of modern pewter. Stainless steel (90Fe, 10Cr, < 0.5Mn + 0.25C or 90-2Fe, 8Cr, 0.4Mn, < 0.12C or 86.7Fe, 12.5Cr, 0.35Mn, 0.35Ni, 0.12C) may have nickel, to which some become allergic.

More on alloys.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 09:27 AM

In some countries, what we would call pewter is called just tin, e.g. French étain, German Zinn. (Apologies if the e-acute doesn't display correctly for everyone.)

The actual composition anywhere in Europe is likely to be according to EN 611, which Rowan has already mentioned. (I've just looked it up on the BSI website . EN 611-1 covers pewter (i.e. presumably the alloy) and EN 611-2 pewterware, i.e. presumably things made of pewter.)

"EN" signifies a European Standard, which the national standards bodies are obliged to adopt as a national standard, thus BS EN 611-1 and -2 in the UK, but similarly in France as NF EN 611-1 and -2 (which indeed refer to "étain"), etc. But enough of this digression about European standardisation!

Richard