Earning a living in Folk

Subject: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:07 AM

There have been a number of comments in varous threads about how difficult it is to earn a living as a folk performer in the U.K.

I just wondered if there were any figures anywhere to give an indication as to how many people list 'folk performer' as their primary source of income in the U.K.?

Is it in the census results, do the Inland Revenue list them?

No particular reason for asking, it's a very superficial question, just curious. It's not my intention to start a discussion as as to who is or isn't a 'folk' performer.

K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM

Look out shipmates, the revenue cutter is coming round the point.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Surreysinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

Thank heavens I am now retired from my previous existence as an HM Inspector of Taxes when it comes to threads like this!!! I hardly think the Revenue would list things like that as privacy and confidentiality is all ... but the census on the other hand ???

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:16 AM

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Hamish
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

Keep your records of expenses and fees so that if HMRC should ask you can prove you don't make money at it. That was the official advice I got when I phoned my tax office. And you can put in all sorts of expenses: not just those directly involved with the fee-earning gigs, but "promotional" floor spots and the like.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

Oh what a cynical age we live in. :-)

I'm not an undercover revenue man trying to uncover the black economy. I just wondered how many there were who actually admit to making a living out of performing folk music.


(P.S. Surreysinger - It's nice to know that the revenue protects our privacy though).

K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:28 AM

It's not my intention to start a discussion as as to who is or isn't a 'folk' performer.

Have you noticed how many threads include this as a disclaimer?

NB, the answer to the original question is.... 42.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:41 AM

You could try National Statistics Office

Even assuming that people describe themselves in that much detail, I'd be surprised if either the Census or HMRC break down occupation information to that level of detail. They'll probably be lumped together as "musicians".

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

Well Ewan, as I'm sure you know, that's because it gets a bit boring when any simple posting gets hijacked by saddo's who want to analyse the meaning of every last word.

Sometimes superficial is fine. And it may be that no-one knows. Which is little disappointing, but I can accept that.

K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Jess A
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:46 AM

well in my other life not as a folk performer I am a civil service statistician and have done a fair bit of work on stats to do with employment in my time, and have to agree with others here who suggest that nobody publishes occupational stats in that much detail I'm afraid. Sorry K/van!

Partly cos in the standard occupational classifications it might go as far as 'performing musician' or somesuch but won't specify type of music performed, and partly cos even if it did they can only publish down to a certain level of detail in order to protect the privacy of the individuals concerned, when small groups of people are involved.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

"It gets a bit boring when any simple posting gets hijacked by saddo's who want to analyse the meaning of every last word"

Absolutely. Kind of the point I was making albeit in a slightly convoluted way...

I don't think it would be that easy to find the answer to your original question which is why I gave the meaning of life as my answer. A suprising number of people I assumed were first and formost folk singers/musicians actually have a day job of some sort or another.

PS: What sort of campervan, Kampervan? Mine's a Mazda Bongo.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM

My occupation has always just been just 'musician' (even, as far as HRMC were concerned, when i had a day job in TV - because that was my accountant's advice, to avoid any problems caused by income from gigs and records). So I don't think any stats from HRMC would help at all. The number of people in the uk who ONLY do folk (no teaching, even) is tiny. Miniscule. I'm one for now, but can't be for much longer, sadly, cos I'm slowly going broke! :-(

Tom

Mines a VWT4 turbo.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

Hi there Ewan-S.A.M.

I suppose that this is thread drift, but I guess there isn't an answer to my original posting, so what the heck.

The van is a VW type 2 late bay ('79). My daughter bought it about 14 years ago. I did some work on it while she was travelling abroad, and we've shared the use of it ever since.

If we go to festivals together then she gets the van and I get the tent. My friends keep saying that doesn't seem right, but I don't seem to be able to change it somehow!

Cheers
K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM

"I'm not an undercover revenue man trying to uncover the black economy."

As someone said: "The best way to make a million at folk is to start with two million."

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:25 AM

well let's see.....
there's Bob Dylan.......that's one definite!

There's Seth Lakeman....not sure about him though....

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

Mines a VWT4 turbo

Mr Bliss! Are you showing off?

(If not you should be...)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM

Only one I knew of was Charles Dwake, Ballad Singer, Weybwidge.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

It's fairly easy to tell who's a pro. Look at people's gig lists.Professional performers will probably be doing gigs on weekdays, and some of those weekdays will not be in the school holidays.School teacher folkies are the biggest enemies of professional folk music, as they can earn a living working at schools in term time, and do gigs at a very low rate of pay in their extensive holidays(I come from a large family of teachers, I know what's going on!)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

Well, it's my occupation, but earning a living? - you're 'avin' a larf! I'm known to the tax man as a musician. They don't ask for specifics. They never challenge my figures either; I think they accept that most musicians in this society are wretchedly poor - unless they discover - as hinted at by Tom - that you are moonlighting as a musician, while telling them you're something else. I've always had the impression that teachers were the biggest group of moonlighters in folk music. As Tom suggests, the number of people doing nothing else is minuscule; but considering the size of the UK population, even after leaving out all the groups who wouldn't be interested, I still think there should be at least a few hundred thousand people who would pay to listen to folk music on a regular basis. I think that a lot of the problems are within the workings of the folk scene. Not that that answers KV's question.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

I like it better now I'm a pensioner.

Lots of time for afternoon gigs. Hospital wards. Libraries.
Gave up singing to drunks in pubs in the 70's.

Still not a living wage though.

Chas

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

I think I might have a problem with doing gigs in unsuitable places.

The most inapprropriate one I ever did was a Christmas night out where the audience was, to put it in the most appropriate terms, "secretarial". They did not want to listen as they'd come out fot their Xmas meal and a good chat, and who could blame them -background music would have done fine!

The icing on the cake was that it was in a smoky cellar before the smoking ban and one of the clientele purned round and put out her cigarette in my tin I used for plectrums, capo thinking it was an ashtray.

You don't need too many experiences like that - the more you have to earn a living the more you might have to experience bad gigs.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:21 PM

... but having said that, it is a source of annoyance that you can be a rubbish accountant and earn a fortune and a brilliant musician, singer, songwriter whatever and struggle to make a crust.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

I've learned that after 40+ years of playing folk music for a living(you call this living?), there are literally tens of dollars to be made! By the way, the feller who said , "If you want to make a million dollars in folk music, start with TWO million.", was none other than U.Utah Phillips, the Golden Voice of the Great Southwest, may he Rest In Peace.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:16 PM

Thanks, Mark. I'll know who to attribute it to next time.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:05 AM

Highly unlikely when you factor in all the neccsary costs particularly with travel. Probably due some money from the Tax Man!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

Checked out the price of two artists this week - £450; they sure know how to make a living from it....

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

If that's a solo artist that's a lot, but if it's a band that's not that much when you take in everything.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Def Shepard
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:14 AM

now break down that amount into funds taken in and funds paid out, that'll be a far more realistic picture

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

£450 is VERY top end for a solo club artist - less then a dozen will charge that much, because very few clubs can afford it (less than 50?). Average for most jobbing solo artists is between £1 and 300 (MU rate is £114 for less that 300 people, by the way). Lots of clubs can't even afford £100. And fuel costs may be more than £100 if there's a long drive involved - (and for arts centres and village halls, publicity and printing may come to more than £100 on top). Don't forget to allow for time spent administering the business, rehearsing, teching instruments, and other costs like insurance and websites.

Also it depends who is asking. Do you run a regular gig Lowden? If not you may be quoted high to allow for getting messed about. There are plenty of duos, even, who'll work for £150 or less, so please don't write off all 'artists' from just two quotes.

There are enough people around already who already have a completely erroneous idea of what 'folk' artists make - and think we're all shysters, crooks and thieving knaves without comments like that!

Thank you.

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:03 PM

Lowden: was that £450 each, or was that a package deal? Some while back, there was somebody signing in as 'Guest' on a thread - possibly the one on the collapse of the folk clubs, but I'm not sure - who was expecting to get that sort of dosh, and rated him/herself as 'on the next level below Martin Carthy/Watersons'   or something to that effect. He/she gave a break-down of the fee, which included a basic fee + a percentage of the door + expenses, VAT, accomodation, agent's fees and god knows what else. Bit of a jaw-dropper for me; I'm just trying to get established nationally, and my fees (which are negotiable) over the last 12 months, have ranged from £20 to £120, averaging out about £75-£80, I suppose. But then, I stay on campsites, in a tent, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than B&B (I'd do this even if I had a choice, by the way, and am almost certain to be living like this on a long-term basis, as I now face the choice of moving out of my house, or getting rid of the van and giving up on folk music). And I don't have an agent; I learned a long way back that agents are not interested in anyone who isn't already eastablished. They just want to relieve you of 15-20% of your fee for answering the phone. (Prepare for torrent of abuse from agents or their apologists but I am prepared to step on that particular hornets' nest!). If I've already got established by my own efforts - which is the hard part - then why do I need to reward somebody else for it? Bookings through an agent usually bring much higher fees than I, for one, would have the nerve to ask for; but I'm the one who then has to get up and face the paying audience. And I know that the folk clubs can't afford this sort of money, and it's probably one of the factors contributing to so many clubs giving up booking guests; perhaps some club organisers would like to comment on this.
It seems to me that some artists have made the choice of pricing themselves out of the folk clubs, and would rather do concerts, for higher fees. And what of the punters? would they rather spend, say £5-£10 to see somebody playing acoustically in a room with an audience of between 50 and 100, or pay - what?- £10-£15 to see the same guest playing to 300 people in a big hall, with a PA? I know which I'd prefer, and not just because it's cheaper.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

Indeed John, but the reality is that a lot (even a majority if you include the small ones) of clubs are just 20-40 people (some are content with even less) often paying less than £5. Quite a few still only charge a couple of quid on the door, or just ask for donations. There may be 400-odd clubs in the land, but you can only expect to play a handful every year. Even the ones that love you to bits will only have you on a two, three or even four year cycle, because there are so many good artists out there. There are now nothing like enough gigs to support the number of people who want to play them on a 'decent' salary (16k). Some artists who have a day-job will charge well below the 'pro' rate, but most 'pro's who have day jobs (yes, I know - but most do!) charge the same as us full-timers - and anyway there's no rule saying anyone should get anything, so I have no problem with anyone working for anything - high or low. But £450 guarantee for a solo artist? I wish! Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:30 PM

It's a matter of keeping two parties happy and viable. One answer is to request a minimum that will for sure cover expenses and a meal for the dog. Then split the balance of the take with the club. So:

50 people x 5 pounds = 250 pounds. Less the 100 pounds guarantee leaves 150. Split two ways that another 75 for the performe(s) and 75 for the club. The club also keeps any other cash it takes in via sales of coffee, tea, alcohol, etc.

I got screwed that way a few times, but sh#t happens. Chalk it to experience and let everyone you know about it. Clubs with a stirling reputation--The Yellow Door in Montreal was (is) such a place--will survive. Less trustworthy places will go down the tubes. There is some sort of Darwinian process at work.

Best of luck to you all.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

OK - maybe the music world is different in the UK, so perhaps my comments are not appropriate to this discussion.

When I first decided to give up the day job and start working full-time as a musician (a FOLK musician) I jokingly told my wife that if I could only work 1,500 nights a year I would do alright!

As it turns out, I was only half joking. I work now all over the US and I still have to say yes to just about every gig that's offered. I work in town, when I'm home - at low paying jobs and private functions and I work on the road at every spot I can when I'm traveling from concert or festival to concert or festival. It never ends and I can never retire. BUT I can make a living; pay my mortgage and keep the lights on.

As for the taxman I list my occupation simply as musician. I have no income from any source other then performing. My chosen field of music is folk. I suspect there are quite a few of us in the US.

Tom Bliss - we have room for ya here. Come on over!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Betsy
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

Hi John,
I wouldn't want to go away from home to do a job and live on a campsite.
Folk , whether you like it or not, i.e.professional Folk ,is a job in entertainment which relies on people paying to see you, and it follows that entertainment is a business.
When and if you do get up and running and I wish you well - as Tom Bliss said there's a load of other stuff which needs to be done.
Like any other job in entertainment or sport - if you're good or at least well known, the easier it becomes because people know your name and are quite prepared to pay money for a name ( or a brand ) with which they are familiar. Just an aside, I know of two "big" names in the British scene who do not drive, so, public transport and associated costs for them ,carry all your clothes, equipment + CD's, keep on top of the dirty clothes and that sort of stuff whilst away from home,report back to your ansaphone for enquiries that you missed ,Truro tonight and Carlisle tomorrow you arrive knackered and leave even more knackered, constant fast food instead of decent swag ,stay with the club organisers and find you have to leave the house at 8.10am cos they're both got to go to work so you are left walking round a strange big town or city feeling equally as strange because of people staring at this bastard with the guitar case who won't work.!!!
Nah, anyone who has made it / who is making it in Folk ,deserves every penny and good luck to them (and to you John) and whilst I'm at "it" the same goes to Tom. Incidentally I am purely a punter. Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

... as for rates, mine vary dramatically. As I said I still work at every chance I can get. I still do some gigs for CD sales only, if they look promising and fit my schedule (and sometimes just for charity).

My current list of pub gigs pay from $150 to $350 - but tips and/or CD sales always bump that total up about $100. Festival and concerts (my mainstay) vary dramatically, small and mid-sized festivals have to promise me a reasonable base (as low $800 plus expenses - but typically $1,200 plus expenses). Big festivals can pay more, a lot more but may not have to because CD sales can exceed my base at other festivals. I need to earn over a grand at festivals and I almost always do. I aim to exceed two. Thank God for on-line CD and MP3 sales, because they have become an important part of my income.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

pug gigs are what I use to backfill my schedule or to stay at home for a while.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Tom: My figures were rather hypothetical, but based on the way the clubs used to be. I know things have changed, but there are a lot of contributary factors, and the fees some people are charging is one factor. Many clubs charge according to the guest's fee, and I've seen door prices of £8 or £9. Most clubs seem to charge about £3 on guest nights, and maybe £1 on singers' nights; if there are 30 people in, and there's a raffle, then, assuming the club isn't being charged for the room (as I think is mostly the case; let's face it - most pubs are glad of that sort of custom on a weeknight these days), that's a decent fee for somebody like me, even without whatever they collected on the previous singers' night. And if I can shift three or four CDs as well, then I'm doing all right. I got £75 from a 'glass collection' plus raffle money recently, when there were only about 15 in the audience. If someone in my position can get that, then I think all is not lost. I have strong feelings about what's wrong with the clubs, which I have already spouted on other threads, but they seem to fall on deaf ears. I believe that there is still a reasonable audience for folk music; people are stil going to festivals - and there are many more of these than there were - and still going to concerts and buying CDs. There isn't a fortune to be made, and I think artists should have a reasonable and realistic idea of how much they really ought to expect to earn from folk music. Those who want more, and get themselves into growing concert circuit, are giving the club organisers a problem; clubs can't afford concert fees, unless they are the 'big names only' concert-type clubs. These clubs don't book unknown artists. The other clubs are then trying to compete, booking unknown or lesser-known guests and hoping they don't end up out of pocket. And this is one of the reasons - not the only reason - why clubs end up with between 10 and 20 in the audience, and eventually give up booking guests.
Discuss.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,no fixed abode
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

Just to put our two penny's worth in......

         We like Tom have been trying to earn a living playing folk based music for the past few years. We have learnt that getting bookings in folk clubs is difficult if you are "unknown" however we have noticed a slight improvement in some club's booking policies thanks to youtube. Now instead of worrying if an artist would suit there club the organisers can "see" a performance and make there minds up from this. This has helped us get gigs we would not stand a chance of getting just sending a cd to the venue.
         Our music would probably be regarded as "common" folk but one thing that always seems to be missing from these conversations is that no one seems to be trying to take the music out of back room clubs and into the bars from where it came. We perform at a number of venues that people would regard as "non-folk " venues yet we believe that if folk is to survive it has to be taken back out to the people. The fact is we could not earn a living just playing at folk clubs and festivals so we have had to learn to adapt and in doing so we have found that "non-folkies" are not the ogres many think!
          Hope this makes some sense, I guess we are saying that there is a big world out there and it is possible to make a living but to do so in the UK you HAVE to be able to adapt and be BRAVE in the bookings you take on.

Tony

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:21 PM

Betsy: Nice to hear know there are some 'punters' following this. It would be nice to hear what some of you think about folk club guest lists, door charges, etc. Are you bored with predictable guest lists or a constant diet of 'big names' or would you be happy with a more mixed programme, including some unknowns, or even the odd 'frst booking'? Somebody, back in the mists of time, must have given Martin Carthy, Vin Garbutt et al their first dates. They wouldn't get a look in at some clubs now. Would you rather see people in the intimate setting of a club, or on the concert platform? Tell us - I think it's relevant to this thread, and would be helpful.
I know about doing the public transport thing - I've done all that in the old days (incidentally, I'm not new at this; it's what I did before marriage/family. I dropped out for a while, and have spent a number of years operating in a very limited capacity, but am now able to get on with it properly). I wasn't using the harmonium on solo stuff in those days, and had transport for group work. It would be out of the question to use it if I was on public transport. An advantage to staying on campsites is that I can cook, so avoiding the fast food diet you mention. I get the impression, staying on the more basic, open-all-year sites( which are cheaper!), that quite a lot of people are living like this, at least some of the time.
Tony: Playing folk music to Mr. & Mrs. J. Public is possible, up to a point; you will find some who really don't want to know, but many will listen, just as long as you don't expect them to listen to anything too 'deep'. I'm not being snooty; I have had some experience of this, and some of it really is a waste of time. It all rather depends on how close it is to what YOU are comfortable doing. If you feel compelled to do material you hate, then why do this job at all? You'll end up hating it.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Betsy
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:54 PM

Hi John,
If the harmonium doesn't go down too well one night - do a mind- reading act - as - Vin and Martin are the two people to whom I was referring who don't drive!!! Are you Psychic or was it too easy?
I think an "apprenticeship" might be involved here, for perfectly understandable reasons - and I suppose one's status comes into it – e.g. I don't think those two gentlemen after headlining some of the biggest Festivals will come out for a gig for a "glass collection" whereas some one who is starting out will do so for the "exposure".
I know Vin does his charity nights for nowt, and likes to occasionally visit his local clubs and do 2 songs like the rest of us and listen to who is doing what, plus having the craic, and, I wouldn't mind betting Martin is in the same boat.
When you are in demand as those two are, I think you need an agent, to keep you "right" and Vin certainly has one.
I personally couldn't, and still can't, bear singing in pubs where you are treated like background music but I don't mind a bit of a "sing-song". Conversely, I had a mate Bruce in Inverness who sang (roughly) the same type of Folks songs as me, but he couldn't bear singing in a Folk club in front of a quiet audience. Horses for courses, as is the question of door charges – a good club knows best.
When you're in the position like (say) Christy Moore able to demand that the bar is shut during his performance, don't forget , he, like the other two guys I mentioned have been through the mill via +/- 40 Year Apprenticeships and they won't, and they don't have to put up with (complete) drunks, hooray Henrys and other unwanted elements which they feel might distract them, or the audience, during their performances.
Consequently Vin insists on a minimum door charge to avoid arseholes and drunks gaining entry for a quid and disrupting proceedings.
All the aforementioned have seen loads of very very good performers come and go, but they are still "there", and importantly doing "it" well, so, I don't begrudge them a penny. A folksinger is no different to any other trade or craftsman - they will seek to be paid what they think they are worth - dare I say it – in this market place. Then we have to consider the product, and whether we would like to purchase, and so far, the "market" has dictated that these guys are worth their fees – playing to full houses isn't an accident – it's taken them years to build up the different following(s) which they all have.
John, let me wish you success and loads of good gigs.
      
Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:38 AM

Betsy: "Truro tonight and Carlisle tomorrow"

Yes - that happens far too often in spite of best endeavours to keep the mileage sensible. And the reason is that clubs operate not only on different nights of the week, but different weeks of the month. Extreme for example: If you've recently (in the past three years) played all the (remaining) Monday clubs between Truro (Sun) and Newcastle (Tue) - or have bookings in the future - you may indeed have to take Carlisle (Mon), when you'd have preferred Birmingham. Time was when this was just a pain (and a danger - because the more miles the more risk), and fuel was not much of an issue. But costs have doubled, along with concerns about carbon tyre-prints. I'm now having serious doubts about the very idea of trying to fill a diary with club dates.

John: "There isn't a fortune to be made, and I think artists should have a reasonable and realistic idea of how much they really ought to expect to earn from folk music."

Indeed, which is why I post so often on this subject. Many people think touring folkies make much more than we do - and resent it. That needs to be debunked. And there is much misunderstanding about how 'other' clubs operate, when sharing of good ideas might help (hence my efforts in that direction). Clubs come in many shapes and sizes with a variety of 'business models' (including none). But the economics are universal and it does no harm for people to understand the issues from both sides. When I started 6 years ago, a well known life-long pro told me 'you can make a living in the clubs - it's hard work, but it can be done." He was right then - just - but he'd not give me the same advice today. And I'd not say the same to a new starter now - unless they had some leg up from somewhere.

Tony: "No one seems to be trying to take the music out of back room clubs and into the bars from where it came."

Hi matey - actually I don't think that's quite true. There are quite a lot of 'folky' bar venues around, and bar-based open mic nights are flourishing. But note the 'mic' in that. The bars from which the music came were largely quiet. The bars into which you'd return are not. Now, you and Una have a robust style which works really well in a bar, which grabs most of the audience and can safely cope with any minority who don't get it. But that doesn't work for me. Even one person nattering at the back spoils the 'grip' and breaks the mood. My songs/stories often turn on a single word. Miss that, and the whole point is gone - and a lot of other artists, specially those who do trad unaccompanied are the same. I did a bar last week in Birmingham. They mostly shut up for the songs, but they yakked all through the stories - because they didn't realise they were as important as the songs, and were used to chatting between numbers. I don't think there's many people on the story side of the folk scene who are happy in free-entry bars. I've tried a good few times now and resolved Never Again, no matter how badly I need a gig that night. A decent door charge is the only reliable method I know of to get people to buy-in (literally) to the 'folk-song-story' listening/singing along experience.

Betsy: "A folksinger is no different to any other trade or craftsman"

This cannot be said often enough - along with a reminder that the tradition has been bolstered in diverse ways down the ages by trade activity of one kind or another, so the modern 'trade' musician does in fact spring from a decent, honest and important lineage. That said, the folk world is pro-am yin and yang, so you have to take what comes and make what you can of it. And if that's nothing - so be it.

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

Hi Betsy, John, Tom and others,

I don't know if I can add much to this discussion, but it won't stop me trying.

We both run a club (KFFC), and my other half is an aspiring act (sometimes hindered by my banjo!) so I at least get a view of both sides of the equation.

The club is a monthly "concert" type club but with a singaround beforehand. We don't really have a booking policy but it is easier to get bums on seats if booking an established artist (though we wouldn't be able to afford/ I'm not prepared to take the personal financial risk of booking some of the big names mentioned above, at least not for a club night). I have been prepared to take some risks and book people who aren't established because I like what they do and think the audience will as well. This has just become a whole lot harder as our pub venue has shut and we now need to find additional money to pay village hall rental. I will have to be more conservative in the future with main guests. I'm exploring several alternative money raising schemes at present (on-line folk club is one, B & B for traveling audience provided by club regulars with a donation to club funds is another).

I do book (and usually pay expenses/ small fee [£20-£50 to anyone who travels any distance] to) either 1 or 2 support acts each month as well, which hopefully gives a "ladder" which aspiring acts can climb. But this level of fee certainly does not provide a living income to anyone.... it seems to me that, unfortunately, you have to be prepared/ able to heavily subsidise your attempts to establish yourself. We will be re-booking as main guests a number of the acts who have initially appeared as supports, where the audience reaction has been really positive.

Main act fees have varied between £50 (a special from a very nice established artist who was helping us get the club off the ground) and £200 (also a special from an extremely well known artist who was also helping us build up club funds). Usual fees paid are between £80 and £130 often done as a minimum guarantee against a door percentage.

Which leads me to the other side of the discussion. My other half's attempts to establish herself really started early last year with a round of finding as many opportunities to play in front of people as possible. Floorspots, singarounds, open mics.......whatever, with a few paid pub gigs (which actually we enjoy, the banjo is a great weapon for cutting through background noise!) and others which began to offset the cost. This has led to around 40 paid gigs (half in folk clubs, half festivals/ pubs/ others) this year with fees varying between £20 (towards the beginning of the year and booked last) & £200+. The bookings are fairly regional, with the majority (not all though) being in the Yorks/ Northeast. CD sales top this up as well.

It is tough though, we find if people have seen her they will book her (clearly not all, the world never works like that!) but get a very poor return if just a CD is sent.... if you can persuade bookers to look at YouTube, the chance of a booking goes up many fold. We do at least have empathy with the bookers (see KFFC rant above!), though it can be frustrating to say the least! So outside the north of England we will continue to look for any performance opportunity, paid or not and have faith that this investment will pay off (and if not at least it is all good fun!). We couldn't do this though, if I did not have a reasonable day job so that we can afford the petrol and the babysitters.

There you go, my input for what it is worth!

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:22 AM

Hi Tom,
             I take the point you so eloquently make......I guess what I meant was if you are trying to earn a living from just performing folk in folk clubs and festivals then you really are going to have an uphill struggle to earn a living. I guess that is why we have found other ways of adapting our version of folk so that we can survive financially and the advice we would give anyone is if you are able to, look beyond just folk clubs and festivals

We understand John's comment about ending up "hating it" but for us part of the fun is going into the lions den and seeing if you can survive. Sometimes we lose but the rewards of someone coming up to us at the end of the night who had no interest in folk music before and then coming up to us and asking questions about the songs and buying a cd……… well there is no better feeling.

I guess we like missionary work!!

So please think of us this weekend when we are taking folk music into Haven Holiday caravan parks (We kid you not!)

Once more into the breach……………………………….

Una and Tony

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Brakn
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:33 AM

"Haven Holiday caravan parks"? Good for you! We're taking the kids to one in August.(Filey)

Sorry it's off topic.
Best of luck.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

To No Fixed Abode:-

Are you actually going to do all that :-

"Ag-a- doo-doo -doo , wave your knickers in the air" stuff.

Have plenty of Johnny Cash up your sleeve!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

Yep Acorn4

Admittedly Una is Irish so the Whisky in the Jar and Wild rover will be deployed if needed....give and take.....we will do some of our original songs and some songs like ready for the storm (Dougie McLain) I know why it is she goes walking (Jack Hudson) Fiddlers green (John Connolly) as we did say we are at the common folk end the folk family! (Ops! having just read this no offence meant to any of the above great song writers!)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM

Harmonium Hero

And I know that the folk clubs can't afford this sort of money, and it's probably one of the factors contributing to so many clubs giving up booking guests; perhaps some club organisers would like to comment on this.

Well, taking a deep breath, -

We pay our guests from the money we take on the door. That equation has to balance.

We have a duty to our audience (of which we are part) as well as to our booked guests. The criterion is the same for both of them; we need to offer a package that makes them one to come back.

We make no distinction between full time professionals or "moonlighters". What you do in the day is no concern of ours; we book you for what you do on the evening.

I have strong feelings about what's wrong with the clubs, which I have already spouted on other threads, but they seem to fall on deaf ears.

We are always open to constructive criticism and positive suggestions so please feel free to tell us what you think.

Bryan Creer Lewes Arms Folk Club

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

"We pay our guests from the money we take on the door. That equation has to balance."

Of course. The danger is that a club can easily slide into a vicous circle. "We don't take much on the door so we can't afford to book the top performers. The audience won't pay much because we're not booking the top performers, so we don't take much on the door."

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

GUEST,Howard Jones

The danger is that a club can easily slide into a vicous circle.

Generally speaking, each event is self-financing and we vary the door price according to the status (and expectations) of the guest. Seems to have worked so far.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

I think Betsy's post above is very insightful and I would endorse her views. However, with someone on tonight's news saying petrol could hit £2.00 a litre by the end of the year I think all arguements will become academic. There will be no clubs left for pro artists to work as the audience won't travel any distance or be able to afford the entrance fee. All costs of living will rocket through the roof. Cds will become a luxury item.The one night stand gig 200 miles from home becomes impossibly expensive for all but the concert artists, and even they will have to try to arrange tours that use the least petrol between gigs. I fear the world we knew is ending and the new world is circumscribed, chilly and well nigh unaffordable.
Wassail!