Earning a living in Folk

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

I don't really believe the price of petrol will kill the music scene. It'll just raise the price ... I still drive long distances. It just costs me more, so I expect to earn more ...

I do see it as my responsibility, or at least my shared responsibility to get a crowd out to any club I am playing. So I am OK with setting fees based on he door. In the US most clubs have a guaranteed fee as a base, with a percentage over the minimum. That works for me. If the club earned at least that break even number, then the show is in the black and I feel like I've earned my keep - that means I'll likely be asked back too.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM

But your petrol costs a lot less than ours in the UK Jed. The predicted figure I quoted is about 18 dollars a gallon. Also, you might raise your price, but wallets are only able to stretch so far. Unfortunately music is not a necessity and already over here people are travelling less and cutting back on non essentials. I too work on a guarantee against a percentage but I'm sure fewer people will be coming to my gigs with fuel and food prices constantly increasing. Also cd sales are bound to fall. Hate to be a prophet of doom, but i've worked through economic cycles before and this is by far the worst one for travelling musicians since the folk revival began back in the 60's.
However, good luck over there!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

"It would be nice to hear what some of you think about folk club guest lists, door charges, etc. Are you bored with predictable guest lists or a constant diet of 'big names' or would you be happy with a more mixed programme, including some unknowns, or even the odd 'frst booking'? Somebody, back in the mists of time, must have given Martin Carthy, Vin Garbutt et al their first dates. They wouldn't get a look in at some clubs now. Would you rather see people in the intimate setting of a club, or on the concert platform? Tell us - I think it's relevant to this thread, and would be helpful."

Are you bored with predictable guest lists? - Yes
Would you rather see people in the intimate setting of a club? - Yes
Would you be happy with a mixed program? - Yes
Martin Carthy, Vin Garbutt ... wouldn't get a look in at some clubs now - I wonder why

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:00 PM

Hi Lowden - can you provide any info about your venue which might put your £450 quotes in context? I'm not being nosey or point scoring - it's part of my job to know how these things work (specially wearing my folkWISE hat). Thanks.

And picking up on John's points that you've commented upon: I think the number of clubs that ONLY book safe big names is fairly few (less than 30? - though these perhaps do have a higher profile, for obvious reasons). I think a majority of those clubs who book do guests regularly (about 300) do go for a mixed programme, and do go out of their way to offer first bookings to new starters - sometimes using featured supports, or two-act guest nights to spread the risk and build up audience support before a first full booking. And thank goodness they do! Or none of us would ever have got off the ground. I owe my career to 201 clubs that have taken a flier on me, for which I'll remain eternally grateful, (and most of them invite me back regularly too - bless em/you all xx)!

Tom

(Incidentally, while I'm interrogating the database - of that 201, 33 have since closed - about a third of 101 clubs which I've recorded as closed since 2001, and there are about another 75 which did to book guests now but no longer do)*

*I've provided these figures in one form or another before, and it's somehow been interpreted as me demanding that clubs owe pros a living. So I'll just stress, for anyone who's determined to misunderstand my motives, that I'm merely quoting figures to help us all grope towards a sketchy understanding of the state of the UK folk nation in 2008.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Betsy
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

Hi Lowden,
Martin Carthy, Vin Garbutt .??? check their gig lists - No problems there.
I think your list was a little bit "cosy", maybe you should have added,(bearing in mind the financial aspects which have been raised recently in this thread) would you pay a fiver entrance for someone you've never heard of before?.
Clubs are all different, different economic catchment areas, ideals , values etc.etc., and the ones who for example arrange a "special" at the Village Hall 'cos their club room is too small, usually manage to attract either of those two gentlemen or equivalent and also cater for other local clubs wishing to see the "bigger" names. Jeez when I first started to go our tiny folk club,we could see at least 2 times a year Barbara Dickson, Christy Moore, Maddy Prior/Tim Hart, any or all the High level Ranters, Carrott, Harding, Capstick, Finbar and Eddie Furey,Garbutt, Carthy,the Yetties,the Fettlers,Alex Campbell, Derek and Dorothy Elliot, Dave and Tony Arthur , the Matthews Brothers,Diz Dizley Martin Wyndham Read etc etc and lots of others readers will tell the same story about their formative years.
They were all fucking brilliant - not learning their skills , but honing them, and eventually a wider audience wanted to experience them.
Strangely THAT wider audience generally wouldn't be seen dead at a folk club but that's another story !.
Maybe a sad part is the highly talented young people of today /in recent years who only dipped their toes in the folk club scene, and were instantly whisked away to the Concert and Festival circuit without us truly seeing them in a folk club setting for any extended period. Our loss - their gain.what would you rather do ,(say) one £300
gig a week, or five gigs in five days x £60.
One of those obviously attracts at lot of expense of being away from home an dthe financial equation becomes in congruous.
Earning a living in Folk is in many ways the same as earning an living in any job.
It depends on how dedicated you are, family connections, how good you actually are,what lucky breaks you get,who you upset, a MUST is to be a good politician and diplomat, recognise lying bastards, ability to sell yourself, whether your face "fits" in certain circumstances but most of all , have you got that bit of "magic" which performers need - just to name but a few essential attributes.
It certainly isn't easy . If you think it's about doing 2 x 45 mins sets and picking up the money - think again - and forget it.
Must go and set my alarm clock for work tomorrow - TFIF !!!!
Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM

GUEST,Tom Bliss

(Incidentally, while I'm interrogating the database - of that 201, 33 have since closed - about a third of 101 clubs which I've recorded as closed since 2001, and there are about another 75 which did to book guests now but no longer do)

The bare facts aren't very informative without knowing the reasons behind them. Why did those clubs close? Loss of audience? Loss of venue? Loss of organisers? Inability to attract performers? Why did those clubs stop booking guests? Were the participants more interested in performing to each other or were the organisers scared of the financial risk of giving guarrantees to performers?

Lowden Jameswright

Are you bored with predictable guest lists? - Yes

Would you care to elaborate on that? Difficult without naming names, I know. Tom talks of long return times between bookings (we generally reckon 18 months to 2 years) so it doesn't sound as if clubs are just cycling through the same old safe names.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Must have seen Vin Garbutt a hundred times always brilliant, never predictable.
Earns a living but never made it 'Big' except in our eyes

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 09:38 AM

Just been catching up on some good posts here; I haven't time to write much now, and I'll be out dancing all day tomrrow (Abram). So I'll pick up on a few points on Sunday. However, I'll just respond on Bryan's last comment: Lowden was responding to a question I posed a couple of posts back. There are quite a few clubs whose guest list is simply a rotation of the same 15 or so names - not necessarily all top names, but all established artists. I've heard the comment from people connected with some of these clubs, that "you don't need to know who's on - you just need to know the dates". Not just clubs either; the festival scene has been bedevilled by the same phenomenon for a long time. A lady punter I was talking to at Chester folk festival around 1980 made the comment: "we get fed up seeing the same half dozen big names all the time". When the punters get bored with it, the are likely to vote with their feet.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

I know that the petrol prices are causing problems to even the 'big names', one I know leaves hours earlier to drive at the most economic speed. So I hate to think what it's doing to up and coming or less well paid acts. It's already causing big problems.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

Is it out of the question that you have less guest nights and more residents ones?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: folktheatre
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM

Very interesting thread for a newbie interested in playing more. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

I've been following this thread with interest and thought I'd put a club organiser's point of view.

Our folk club is primarily a singers club and we have a lot of performers amongst our regulars. Until quite recently, quite a few of these didn't come on guest nights, but we seem to have brought them round. We expect 25 - 40 in the audience for a guest night (can't fit any more in) and expect to make up the artists fee from other revenue. We keep our prices down, but pay the artist what they as for rather than a percentage. We can't book big names or bands (but we do run special nights in a different venue with these.) Our club guest nights are always with artists requested by our members and we hardly ever have the same artist twice. I would hate to see the same roster coming round year after year. I think we would lose our audience if we did that.
This way of working is hard on unknown performers - I think I've only taken a risk twice - but overall I think it is fair.
BTW as an occasionally paid performer, I admit to being one of those who only wants gigs in school holidays (but not for much longer as I retire in three weeks time!)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Graham and Jo
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

Behind an awful lot of 'professional' musicians is a boyfriend or girlfriend who has to work hard in a job to pay all the bills and who is constantly being nagged for money.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

Hi Tom - the venue in question is one you've played - the George IV

Hi Betsy - I have no problems with Vin or any other top performer (I've paid to see him on many occasions, and been privileged to catch some of his unpaid impromptu spots in his local pubs). I have, over many years, also paid many times to see other top performers - and many, many repeats too. I'm well aware of the laws of supply and demand, and can accept that the likes of Vin and Martin can easily justify fees of around £450+. I was posting from a personal perspective only (and in response to a question posed by HH).

When I first started going to folk clubs I hadn't heard of any of the guest names, and didn't care. I was delighted and amazed by the quality and talent of these musicians. My record/CD collection is now dominated by names from the folk scene - I have spend God knows how much on this music I love. The "supply" of talent is growing fast, so the "demand" inevitably is affected. These top performers have inspired thousands of people to make their own music, and the demand for venues to play may have detracted from the demand for places to listen. I will never stop being a listener and a learner - but I do know there are many on the folk scene who only want to listen to themselves; I think they're sad, but I respect freedom of choice.

Some clubs do go for safety, and the endless repeats. I tend to avoid those now. Happily for me there are several places I can go and still be surprised and delighted by new names and great new talents. I'm pretty objective when it comes to assessing quality and entertainment. I'm a bit long in the tooth now to be too impressed with poise, polish and practice. It's tough out on the folk circuit and the top earners have my respect, but endless hours of practice on a limited number of songs and a well-rehearsed database of humorous and informative chat lines does bring it's rewards, both for them and their audiences.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Betsy
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 04:09 PM

To the last 6 or 7 replies James,Graham and Jo,and Sooz, Blue and H H, i have to agree with you all and would only possibly add "Mums and Dads " to G&J's reply. Blue and Lowden have said nice things about VG and Lowden bears out the human(ity) side in knowing that VG is always good for an impromptu spot in addition to the professional side of his art and I'm sure some other pro's are the same .
To all,it has been a good interesting thread ,sensitively thought out replies especially when we are giving our opinion on a subject which Tom and others are sticking the heads above there trench and giving it their best shot.
Best of luck to Tom and all travelling to their gigs , the one thing I hope which might be "driving" them is ,I don't want to get get to my old age and say to myself " I wish I had given "it" (full time performing) a go."
Good luck all.

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 02:47 AM

ah, yes I'm at the George IV (Sheffield) this very wednesday! (and yes if I hadn't paid off my mortgage, leant myself some money, and had a supportive well-paid wife I'd never have given up the day job!) Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

Harmonium Hero

There are quite a few clubs whose guest list is simply a rotation of the same 15 or so names - not necessarily all top names, but all established artists.

I must say that comes as something of a surprise. If you are talking about a weekly club, that's each guest appearing three times a year. Even for a monthly club that would be every year and a quarter. That's certainly not what we do nor does it fit Tom's experience.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: olddude
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

Me I am working on my second million ... yup I have completely abandoned the hope of ever making my first million so why not just start at the second. And if I fail at that like I did the first ... well I am going to try for 3 million then.

sounds logical right

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: oggie
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

As a perforner (in the UK), very few. As someone who has used their experience and knowledge to gain other work, a few more. Most full-time "folkies" I can think of play in several incarnations, do school's work, sessions work, produce or write music or act. Or in some cases now have a pension to provide backup (and good luck to them).

Making a living solely as a gigging musician, on their own? Vin, er?

Steve

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 12:07 PM

Sounds like I'm better off in the US. I am determined to make my entire living from performance, since that is my motivation for working in music. So I do work at playing anywhere I can, as often as I can and I hope to steadily improve the gigs over time.

I really can sing the music I love in any situation, though each situation has a different set requirements. I'd give up puns in a heartbeat, if I could - but they keep me honest, and humble! I do not make a living in only folk concert environments. And playing a mix of festival, pub and concert environments means I have to play 3 sort of separate "looks" at my music. They are not all that different to me - but I have to say, there are some songs I never play outside the pubs. I guess I try to make pub audiences hear and appreciate songs they are not expecting, and I use those times to learn about the basic qualities of a song's appeal, "how do I get this song across to a busy, packed pub?" is the sort of thing I look to learn. Because answering that helps me even more with the "listening" audiences.

Music is a tough way to make a living - but I love it and I'll find a way to keep it going. It does sound like things are easier for me here in the US, though from this thread.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

oh - I chaffed a little at the comment about "folk musicians must be supported by a supportive spouse."

I have some advantages because of my wife's work - and she has some from mine. In a two income household, that is the norm. I earn about what she does and the household we support requires both incomes. If I wasn't married, and did have the second income of a spouse, I would have half the living costs too. Don't assume that because a musician has a working spouse that that means he/she is not pulling a fair share.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM

Damn those typos!!


I'd give up pubs in a heartbeat

is what I meant to say above ...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 12:16 PM

It also helps to be Jed Marum. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 01:54 PM

Well, there's a lot to comment on here, and it gets a bit complicated trying to respond to so many posts individually, so I'll keeep it more general.
Predictable guest lists: I have noticed this myself, and it is backed up by comments from others. Many clubs do book a varied list of guests, including some lesser-known performers, but there are certainly some who book only 'safe' acts. Look at a few club websites, and in quite a few cases, you will find that you know every name on the list, and in some, all of these will be in the top range. And I have been told by some clubs that they have their regular list of club favourites; you might think this fair enough, but how do they know who's likely to become a club favourite if that list is exclusive? And as for the frequency of return dates, many clubs are now only booking guests once a month, or even less frequently, so return dates are going to be at lest 15 months ahead. The frequency of return dates varies from club to club. Clubs run on many different models.
Floor singers: There have been a couple of comments about singers who don't come on guest nights, or who only want to listen to themselves. Floor singers were always an important part of the folk club, and it was always the way to get started. However, I have noticed a shift in the attitude of SOME singers in rscent times. There have, for many years, been those who would say "There should be no such thing as professional folk singers". Who says so, and on what authority? Some recent threads here have been about this attitude, and I don't wish to continue the argument here, but comments on such threads reveal a proprietorial attitude on the part of SOME amateurs, and an accusation that those involved in the professional side are 'money-driven'. They should try it. I wonder how many of these people do their jobs for washers. There is also a sneering attitude towards those who pay to listen. I have already mentioned that some clubs have stopped booking guests because they found that they were getting more people in on singers' nights, but what they don't seem to have noticed is that they were not getting more punters, just a room full of floor singers, who were not prepared to support the club on guest nights. These 'career floor singers' have thus taken over some clubs. I know from my own experience that some of them visit singarounds over a 15 -20 mile radius, and so are not faithful to any particular club.
Young Folk: One problem with the folk world in th UK (I don't know how this affects the US or elsewhere), is that we have a missing generation. So the much-needed young generation is not a direct continuation; they have come into a scene which has been changed for the worse by - amongst other things, no doubt - problems arising from this lack of continuity. Most of them didn't know the folk clubs as they were, and the performers among them are now arriving via the route of degree course~CD~'Young Folk Award' and expect to have a ready-made career in concerts and festivals, bypassing the taditional club apprenticeship. They do get bookings in the clubs, but I don't see them attending clubs in significant numbers as punters, and there don't seem to be too many running clubs themselves. So they are competing with us old 'uns for the work, but not making a significant contribution to keeping the clubs alive. Maybe - I hope! - this will improve.
Gawd! - I've just noticed the time. I've got to go and grab something to eat and then go somewhere. I'll be back!. This is a worthwhile thread, and so far has been civilised. I hold rather forthright views, and sometimes people can take me the wrong way; I hope nobody is offended by anything I've said here (as some have elsewhere!). I'm just trying to help a useful discussion along.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

It is possible to make a sort of living out of Folk music - but I doubt not from live gigs any more. Should be possible to earn from sales of CD's etc but probably best not to give up the day job! I can say for sure, be VERY careful before signing any record or publishing deal. If you do go that route take your own legal advice - do not rely on any goodwill from "inhouse" lawyers. Mudcat is littered with dire stories of a certain UK team - be warned.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: oggie
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

"Most of them didn't know the folk clubs as they were, and the performers among them are now arriving via the route of degree course~CD~'Young Folk Award' and expect to have a ready-made career in concerts and festivals, bypassing the taditional club apprenticeship."

They don't know the Folk Clubs as they were because those clubs don't exist anymore. You can't do an apprenticeship in something that isn't there. Given the comments made elsewhere about the problems of getting FC gigs why go down that route?

The graduates from a degree course can expect to have £20,000 of student debt (as can any graduate). I wouldn't want to try and pay that off on folk club fees.

Steve

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:29 AM

Harmonium Hero

Hi John. I hope you had a good weekend.

Predictable guest lists:... Many clubs do book a varied list of guests, including some lesser-known performers, but there are certainly some who book only 'safe' acts. Look at a few club websites, and in quite a few cases, you will find that you know every name on the list, and in some, all of these will be in the top range.

"some", "quite a few" yet you are putting this across as a major problem. I've had a browse and can't find any. Have a look through this - Brighton Listings for instance and from another Mudcat thread - Midway Folk Club. Scroll down for their Past Performers. There's at least one name you can't complain about.

That strikes me as more typical. Over to you to produce your evidence.

I'll come back to the difficult paragraph later.

Young Folk:

Here, I agree with you. The new wave are in their twenties and getting into their thirties with some very talented teenagers hard on their heels. A lot of us are fifty and upwards but there is a void around forty. It's probably due to the doldrums on the scene in the eighties and nineties (decades, not ages). I blame Maggie Thatcher (for most things). Not sure what there is to be done about that.

OK. Now for the difficult one.

Floor singers: .... There have, for many years, been those who would say "There should be no such thing as professional folk singers". Who says so, and on what authority?

"Who says so?" I've no idea. In 35+ years on the folk scene and around 12 on a folk club committee, I've never heard anyone say it. "On what authority?" Assuming these people do exist and they are running a folk club then, in that club, their own authority. If they are prepared to put in the work, then they have the absolute right to make whatever policy decisions they wish. Outside their club, no-one is under any obligation to take the slightest notice.

There is also a sneering attitude towards those who pay to listen.

Never in my hearing.

I have already mentioned that some clubs have stopped booking guests because they found that they were getting more people in on singers' nights, but what they don't seem to have noticed is that they were not getting more punters, just a room full of floor singers, who were not prepared to support the club on guest nights.

I'm not sure in what sense floor singers aren't punters but if people get more enjoyment from singing than from sitting in polite rows listening to someone else I don't see how you can force them. Surely it is the job of folk clubs to fulfill the perceived demand.

These 'career floor singers' have thus taken over some clubs.

Who do you see the clubs belonging to in the first place apart from those who run them and those who pay on the door?

I know from my own experience that some of them visit singarounds over a 15 -20 mile radius, and so are not faithful to any particular club.

Are you complaining that some people go to more than one club?

I'm sorry if all that comes over a bit aggressive but you have chosen to try and earn a living in an environment that you seem to consider to be totally hostile. It is not the folk scene that I know. You may well have encountered all the things you describe and your own situation may make you a little sensitive to them but do they really represent the mainstream?

Sorry I missed you at Seaford; band practice night. I've heard good reports. A pity that the Lewes Arms had a Music Hall night with no unbooked floor spots or we could have got you on. Get in touch next time you're down this way.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

I wish the whole of folk club world was like the one you describe, the Snail. No-one would ever have any cause to complain about anything if it was.

As things stand, as soon as someone starts raising concerned based on their perception of how things are, you come down of them like a ton of bricks, as you have done with John Kelly. You've been similarly harsh with Tom Bliss in the past, I recall. I suspect for all your protestations to the contrary, you really don't like professional folk singers very much. Or if you do, you don't exactly advertise the fact.

I'm really glad all your experiences of the folk world have been so positive for you (having to deal sternly with whinging folksingers notwithstanding). In fact it makes me quite jealous.

Howevah, your seeming belief that your version of reality is the only tolerable one is starting to smell suspiciously like, shall we say, folk club Stalinism.

Sorry and all that.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM

Ewan, anyone who knows me, including the many professional folk singers I have had the honour of working with over the years will find you suspicions preposterous.

Please excuse me for speaking up for the folk scene that I commit a great deal of my time to.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

Sorry I have joined this a little late and it is a subject about which I (naturally enough) have opinions.

A lady punter I was talking to at Chester folk festival around 1980 made the comment: "we get fed up seeing the same half dozen big names all the time". When the punters get bored with it, the are likely to vote with their feet.

Unfortunately this does not seem to have happened in that people have not voted with their feet. If that were true then festivals would have shrunk since the 1980's. Instead they have expanded and are expanding. Though some have closed like Cleethorpes, others have expanded and many new festival started since then. In other words she was wrong.

Dent where I was last weekend, was a total sell out with a variety of guests. Gate to Southwell - a few weeks ago massive increase in ticket sales. Shepley - a week or two before that - the same. Moniaive a week earlier total sellout. The piping competition had an entry of 72 there. Loughborough a few weeks earlier - the same. And three of them started in the last two years and the other two are five years old. And these are all different types of festivals.

Looking over the guests lists quickly the only constants seem to be Bellowhead (who appeared at two of those festivals). Bellowhead are clearly not a folk club band - but their charges reflect that they have to divide the money by 11 and their fuel costs have rocketed as well.

I have been talking to a couple of artists this past week or so and all of them have commented upon the fact that fuel costs have rocketed.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

I don't doubt you're right. I certainly don't doubt your love of this music. I love it too. Just that I'm not so enamoured with the trappings.

Then again, as I don't know you, I can only respond to i) what I read of your opinions on Mudcat and ii) the manner in which you express them. It works the same the other way, too.

Please consider my opinions as an observation not an attack. And please take account of the fact that I am of the generation that didn't want your folk clubs and apparently, judging fom what you all seem to be saying about folk music skipping a generation, still, on the whole, doesn't.

Finally, to paraphrase Alex Petridis in Friday's Guardian, and I do so because I think he hits the nail right on the head: "Has there ever been a musical genre as prickly and suspicious ... as English folk? Battered by decades of public mockery, folkies ... pulled up the drawbridge and developed a fiercely protective siege mentality long ago."

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

Last post a response to Snail not Folkie Dave, btw.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

So the discussion is not "Earning a living in Folk" as it Earning a living in UK Folk Clubs?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:28 AM

ALex Petridis talks round spherical objects.

This is the genre that absorbed the diverse sounds of the Watersons, Louis Killen, Anne Briggs, Peter Bellamy, Dave Burland, Copper Family, Sam Larner, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Sandy Denny, Fairport Convention, Seth Lakeman, Steeleye Span, Bert Jansch, Davey Graham, Gordon Hall, Shirley Collins, Christy Moore, Kate Rusby, Duncan McFarlane and Craig Morgan Robson, Boys of the Lough, Dick Miles, Bella HArdy, Mawkin, Altan, Mike McGoldrick, Last Night's Fun, Bellevue Rendezvous, Simon Mayor and Hillary James, Salsa Celtica, Lau, Bellowhead, Chumbawamba, Tim Edey, Mike Harding, Eddie and Finbar Fury, Vin Garbutt, etc. etc. etc.

Clearly a load of closed minds and only liking the same thing.

What a shame people can't get rid of the stereotypes they have, and get out more.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

I list what I call 'Big Name' folk clubs separately in my database. These are the people who have explained that they only book acts who are 100% guaranteed to fill their venue (how many acts would that be, I wonder)? I only trouble these 'clubs' (actually these are more like promoters than clubs, though they still have some elements of clubbery, such as a a committee maybe and perhaps a raffle) once in a while, to check that I'm still not big enough yet :-) There are - as I said earlier - fewer then 30 in this category in my personal database. As to the charge that some clubs stick with guests they know and like - well, it's their club and that's their very reasonable choice - so I don't complain about it. Sometimes it works in my favour if they like me, sometimes not if they haven't tried me yet, but when not there are usually ways in via the back door if you try hard enough. I have heard people suggest that in a small and shrinking 'market,' clubs effectively 'occupy' their territory, because if a rival club starts nearby they might both fail through splitting the available audience. The thinking goes that therefore clubs could be said to have a responsibility to try to represent the tastes of the wider 'folk market' in their patch, rather than just the preferences of the committee or members. But I'm not convinced this is sound thinking in business terms. That said, many clubs do tell me they feel they do have some responsibility in terms of bringing on new acts, offering a spread of styles, trying to interest younger punters etc - and many work INCREDIBLY hard at this aspect - and often loose money as a result. So fair play to them as well.

As for John's suggestion that there are people who resent there being such an animal as a professional folk musician - he is undoubtedly right. There have been dozens of threads on this very forum (no, I'm not going to go looking for them, I'm supposed to be writing a song about a lady from Bristol) where that view has been expressed at length and with some vehemence, and there is a strong undercurrent that is easily discernible in many, many posts - on all manner of topics.

This has caused me more disappointment than anything else I've encountered in the folk world over the past 10 years, and I'm at a loss to explain it. It's all too easy to write it off as inverse snobbery or sour grapes, but it seems to go much deeper than that - into what people believe folk music actually IS. But if so, then that belief is at odds with my own best understanding of where it all came from, and how it got to be where it is today. I feel passionately - though instinctively - that somehow some massive misunderstadings have arrisen about the tradition and its relationship with the rest of society.

If this was cleared up, I think a lot of other things which are currently dysfunctional would start to work much better.

Apologies if I'm rambling. I played in Leigh on Sea AND Derbyshire, yesterday and was up before 6 this morning.

Now...

"In Bristol lived a Lady, long past seventeen
Courted she was by many but no wedding had she seen
For with her famous fortune, no lover would she trust
To covet her just for beauty and all suitors she rebuffed..."

(Yes it's a new variant on the Discharged Drummer - but with an actual STORY)!

So shoot me :-)

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM

Bother

Before I'm jumped on again I'll stress (golly it's tedious having to second guess everything you write here!)...

In confirming that there are a lot of people who think there should be no such thing an PFMs I'm not saying they should not do so. They can think what they like, and if every one did and we died out as a breed so be it. We are all entitled to our opinions and to act accordingly. I have no beef with people who would like us to quietly disappear, but are nice about it, and who's opinions are based on solid facts. The two strands that I would like to unravel, if possible, are a) the underlying resentment we witness over this topic, (and the damaging unpleasantness which occasionally seeps out onto the public face of folk music as a result), together with b) a steady correction of any misconceptions that may have arisen in the past about the tradition and the revival - for example, about the actual role and influence of trade players and writers etc. from the distant past to just yesterday.

Now, hmm

If I my hero is a 'tyro proud and gay' will people get the wrong idea, and misconstrue his motives re courting the rich lady from Bristol, I wonder?

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM

Fair point, Folkie Dave - in a way.

Although it's actually quite a narrow list: traditional singers; singers of traditional songs, a few "folk club approved" singer songwriters and a couple of folk rock bands. Not entirely complaining, though: I'm hugely enthusiastic about some of the names you've listed.

The festival and concert scene side of the folk world is indeed far more open minded than the UK folk world as manifested, for example, on Mudcat could ever be. It also doesn't bear much resemblence to the folk clubs I've had the misfortune to attend, but that's probably another discussion (though not entirely unrelated to the one that John Kelly was trying to initiate before the Snail put him in detention).

Here's another list: Jackie Oates, Jim Causley, Jon Loomes, Spiers and Boden, the Askew Sisters, Bella Hardy, James Raynard, Mawkin, Ruth Notman, John Dipper. Off the top of my head. All excellent singers and players from the younger generations of folk performers. Not a one of them has played at any of the folk clubs in the major city where I live, as far as I know.

We've had Rachel Unthank and we've had Bellowhead and we've had 'em at non-folk venues. This, I think, is on reflection probably for the best. Non folk club types like me are more likely to attend.

It could be argued that the answer is for me to start a better club than those around me. This is the standard answer, after all. I can't due to not having time, what with the full time job, the young kids and the pre-existing extra-curricular commitments. This doesn't mean I shouldn't have an opinion though, nor does the fact that I'm one of those 40somethings who allegedly destroyed folk by not going to folk clubs in the 80s. Well, I did go to one...

But that's another story.

In summary, Alex Petradis's comments do reflect how it often feels to those of us who are on the outside, faces squashed against the glass, looking in. A bit like interlopers in a world that isn't theirs. And maybe that's one of the reasons why there's not enough guest-based clubs to sustain the careers of more than just a few professional folk singers, and to go back to the point of the thread, its so hard for them to earn a living. As Tom Bliss has said, nationally, there simply aren't enough decent guest nights to go around. And we can't keep citing the same handful of examples that buck the trend in an attempt to keep our heads valiantly buried in the sand.

Certainly, if there was a club locally regularly booking quality guests I would make a point of attending. As things stand, I've all; but given up, because those of us who "just want to listen" are second class citizens compared with those who enjoy the celebratory love-in that is participatory folk. And whilst there's nothing wrong with that, per se, can you see why us "punters" wouldn't want to stand on the periphery watching your private party?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

ESAM....where are you based?

By the way, not all 40 somethings hate folk clubs.....I run one, very much concert based. We have had on in the last year:

Duncan McFarlane Electric Band
Rod Baxter
Wendy Arrowsmith
Brother crow
Anna Shannon
Keepers Fold
2 Black Sheep & A Stallion
Jez Lowe
Stan Graham
Pillowfish
Zoox
Zeke Deighton
Diad
Acoustica
Chris Milner
Hamish Currie
Tony Levy
Hall Bros
Hut People
Young uns
Tom Bliss + Robin Bailey + Franana
Gerry McNiece + Bill Lloyd
Jeff Warner + Kathryn Davidson & Dan Walsh + Tinkercuss
John Conolly + Doghouse Roses
Richard Grainger + Nick Brooker + Joolz Cavell
Kim Guy
Ian McKone
Bill Evans & Megan Lloyd (American Bluegrass legends)

+ a couple I've forgotten!

Booked:
Roger Davies + Blind Summat
Dave Gibb + Sue & Dave Swales + Pearson Clan
Brother Crow
Vicky Swan & Johnny Dyer

.........and I have 2 w/e events on hold (due to venue challenges) with a host of other well known and not so well known acts.

I also have 2 young children, a full time job and lots of other stuff going on. But some things are too important not to do!

Having said that, I think you are quite right to state your opinion about what you want from a venue.....someone might pick up on it and make it a reality.

Looking at your list of "youngsters" you would like to see booked in your town.....I would have trouble booking most of them as their fee expectations would probably outstrip their "pull" with the local folk community. I don't mean to slag them off by saying this (good luck to them, honestly) it's just a reality I have to face. They are really in the "festival" price bracket as far as I can see.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:04 PM

it is interesting to read about earning a living in music in the UK.

What i want to know is:

1) Is smoking allowed in folk clubs?
2) Are the people making a living connected to the popular music field?
3) Are audiences sophisticated enough to amass a support?
4) Is there any educational conduit through which the uninitiated public can
learn to appreciate folk music?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:07 PM

I would have trouble booking most of them as their fee expectations would probably outstrip their "pull" with the local folk community

Please, please, please let me get what I want... to quote, erm, Morrissey (sorry!). Maybe I just have unrealistic expectations.

I also know that I've (from a distance) followed the progress of your club and if I lived closer would be there like a shot. You've certainly put on enough stuff that interests me! However, what with keepin' it local, sustainable livin' and all that, you're a bit far for me unless it can be combined with a couple of days away in the old campervan and sold to la famile as a bit of an 'oliday...

I also know that there aren't any folk clubs to compare with yours (or Subcomandante Snail's for that matter) in my locality. Gawd knows I've looked.

I also suspect you might be a man of superhuman energy levels. Or conversely (and apologies here to Brian) I might be merely half-man half-slug.

Anyway it must be true: our generation really did ruin folk for everyone. We went off inventing punk and listening to reggae and so on, finally limping sheepishly back to the folk fold in later life, only to find a bunch of the true believers blocking the door, merschaum pipes gritted, tankards in full throttle 'fight' mode, beards all wet with slobber and a-jut, saying "don't you think you're getting in here now..."

Note to the concerned: that last paragraph deeply exaggerates my position for 'comic' effect.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

ESAM.........I'm working on ways to get some Punk & Reggae on at the club without anyone noticing........We also demand that beards are shaved and tankards left at the door prior to entry. We have also recently begun searching anyone wanting to get in for copies of the "1954" definition, as we find it upsets normal people who thought they knew what "folk" was. We also have a sense of humour..........

I think I might have worked out who you are now..... I thought you were leaving this mad Mudcat world? No? I must be mistaken.

It is very pretty around here.......I'm sure you could find enough going on to keep the rest of the family happy for a weekend........ still nothing happening now until September clubwise.


"superhuman energy levels" ......hardly, I do have a low boredom threshold though!

Meanwhile, making a living in folk music.......tough to do in the clubs, you really need to make it up to the next rung of the ladder (see ESAM's "youngsters" list) i.e. main stages at festivals and arts centres, discuss!


Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:01 PM

"To No Fixed Abode:-

Are you actually going to do all that :-

"Ag-a- doo-doo -doo , wave your knickers in the air" stuff.

Have plenty of Johnny Cash up your sleeve!"


What a world of contempt some people live in! For Black Lace, on whose sessions the cream of Yorkshire's musicians played - folk and otherwise. Some of the people regularly genuflected to, on Mudcat.

And Johnny Cash. snce his death, known to aficionados as John Cash. Money for the toilet, rather than contraceptives. Easy to remember.

Try and remember though before sneering your way to an early slip jig - more English people related way with a song - songwriting and performing than man Martin, Vin, etc.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

Should read:-

Try and remember though before sneering your way to an early slip jig - more English people related way his way with a song - songwriting and performing than Martin, Vin, etc.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

If we're going into a Supporting Yoof competition, can I boast that we gave Jon Boden, The Askew Sisters and Lisa Knapp their first ever bookings. We had Carly Blain just after Christmas as part of her award as a New Roots competition winner and The Park Bench Social Club, with Peter Tickell substituting for Ross Couper, earlier this year. We've got Sam Lee sometime next year.

As for Ewan's city not being able to support any decent folk clubs, Lewes (pop. 16,000) has the Lewes Arms Folk Club and the Royal Oak about 100yds apart, both thriving as weekly clubs. When Bellowhead played the Town Hall on the same night as we had Martin Carthy in April, both shows sold out.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

It's not about the size of the conurbation but the will to make something happen, publicity and a group of like minded people. Oh, and finding a viable venue and a big slice of luck.

............Kirkby Fleetham has a population of 250!

We specialise in importing audiences from elsewhere though.....B & B with the the club regulars anyone? Plenty of van space too.

Snail, I salute your promotion of youth.....do you have many youngsters (under 45 (well I am 43!)) as audience? We are starting to get a few but I'm looking for tips to attract more.

Top "youngster" tip for today.....Kathryn Davidson & Dan Walsh, stunning singing from Kat and virtuoso banjo and guitar playing from Dan......they are on at Broadstairs Folk Week if you are going, definitely worth catching. Still on KFFC Myspace as well if you want a listen.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

Having now "done" the two caravan parks I can report that we did not need to resort to "ag a do" in fact the reception we got to our songs surprised and has inspired us.
We have two more caravan parks to perform at this coming weekend and if they go as well as last weekends gigs we will be more than happy.
Why do we feel like the kid who has been told nasty stories about the big bad world outside the safe folk house only to find that mommy and daddy were telling us lies?

WLD thanks for the support……those nasty people who go to caravan parks actually turned out to be receptive, fun and they even bought cd's by the 10's

We are sorry to disappoint but all we can say is normal people love folk music…perhaps we are doing it wrong?

Una and Tony

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

The situation in Lewes is all very well, Snail, and if I lived there I'd doubtless be stuck to the Lewes Arms like a limpet, but the fact is I don't live there.

I have to contend with the reality of my own neck of the woods. Can you not accept at least that my reality is as valid as yours? I know we should all constantly be painting a rosy picture to persuade the outside world into believing that all is well on the chance that some of them may venture in, but to be honest, I think we'd be better off painting some of those grimy back rooms.

(Incidently, my partner did get offered a job in Brighton a few years ago, but as we were just back from a year and a half blowing our savings on a round the world trip, we couldn't afford the deposit for a flat - bloomin' extortionate, it was - and had to limp back to the relatively affordable north, tails bitwixt our legs. Not strictly relevant...).

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM

Fair point, Folkie Dave - in a way.

Although it's actually quite a narrow list: traditional singers; singers of traditional songs, a few "folk club approved" singer songwriters and a couple of folk rock bands. Not entirely complaining, though: I'm hugely enthusiastic about some of the names you've listed.

So how much broader could it have been? Who in the broad genre of folk is an example which I have not listed?

It was not my intention to do a list of folk singers you and I might like - but to point out that those names have hugely different styles and repertoires. So to accuse "folk" of having a narrow viewpoint is simply round spherical objects. It isn't the first time Alex Petridis has propagated this view in the Guardian - though it looks as if he hasn't been out since the last time he wrote it.

The festival and concert scene side of the folk world is indeed far more open minded than the UK folk world as manifested, for example, on Mudcat could ever be.

Hang on a bit - I belong to both (and folk clubs as well) - where the hell do I and many like me fit in? At Warwick Festival a couple of years ago I compiled a mudcat attenders list that was about two pages long. This weekend at Dent it was a page long - though that did inlcude three from one family!! Most people do at least two out of three as far as I can see.

Here's another list: Jackie Oates, Jim Causley, Jon Loomes, Spiers and Boden, the Askew Sisters, Bella Hardy, James Raynard, Mawkin, Ruth Notman, John Dipper. Off the top of my head. All excellent singers and players from the younger generations of folk performers. Not a one of them has played at any of the folk clubs in the major city where I live, as far as I know.

I live in Sheffield which is a hot bed of folk though not folk clubs, most of which apart from one tend to be on the lesser or greater outskirts. But in the last week I have seen Craig Morgan Robson - this week I shall see Tom Bliss and Martyn Wyndham-Read. I was at Dent Festival this weekend. Both Jackie Oates and the Askew Sisters have been to a local pub to play - the idea that their fees were high for the Rivelin which is really a singaround club with occasional guests is ludicrous.

Mawkin now appear as a five piece with Jim Causely,how much do you think they should be paid? James Raynard no longer sings, Jon Boden is on at the singaround club in Sheffield Town Centre with his partner Fay Hield next week. I doubt Ruth Notman has done much in the way of folk clubs much anway but she seems to have a full gig list. John Dipper spends more time teaching and doing things "violin" than anything - he also plays with the Methera String Quartet. Unlikely to come cheap at a club.

It could be argued that the answer is for me to start a better club than those around me.

That depends whether you have a load of money to start one up. I have been to some really poorly run clubs run by enthusiasts and have been to some great ones run by people who know little about folk. I know people who do similar things to you full time and run large scale festivals.

A better idea is not to go down that road.

In summary, Alex Petradis's comments do reflect how it often feels to those of us who are on the outside, faces squashed against the glass, looking in.

In summary Alex Petradis has a view point of folk music which in no way relects the reality as I see it. Whether you want to agree with him is up to you. I happen to believe the future of the folk club is with either small sing-around clubs into which people build up a fund to pay an artist - or concert style clubs.

When I go to festivals I see lots of good quality artists, and there are a variety of festivals to suit all tastes and pockets. I see loads of young people of all ages at most and even more at some festivals (last weekend in Dent was virtually all families as far as I could see!)

A bit like interlopers in a world that isn't theirs.

That applies to all things - golf clubs - classical music etc etc.....

And maybe that's one of the reasons why there's not enough guest-based clubs to sustain the careers of more than just a few professional folk singers, and to go back to the point of the thread, its so hard for them to earn a living.

As Tom Bliss has said, nationally, there simply aren't enough decent guest nights to go around. And we can't keep citing the same handful of examples that buck the trend in an attempt to keep our heads valiantly buried in the sand.

The folk scene is as it is - not how you or I would like it to be.

And whilst there's nothing wrong with that, per se, can you see why us "punters" wouldn't want to stand on the periphery watching your private party?The festival and concert scene side of the folk world is indeed far more open minded than the UK folk world as manifested, for example, on Mudcat could ever be.

I see them much as the same people.

One thing for certain it would be interesting to see how much folk music Alex Petradis actually goes to. Very little as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

Banjiman

It's not about the size of the conurbation but the will to make something happen, publicity and a group of like minded people. Oh, and finding a viable venue and a big slice of luck.

Indeed it is, but there are some people who don't seem to realise that. I'm surprised that, let's call it Mudcaster, can't come up with the necessary.

...do you have many youngsters (under 45 (well I am 43!)) as audience? We are starting to get a few but I'm looking for tips to attract more.

Alas, no. I forgot to mention local heroes Too Many Strings (booked twice) who brought in a younger following but they did not return.

It could be that the days of folk clubs are passing. After all, they are a product of the revival not of ancient tradition. Perhaps today's yoof will find their own way. For me, the intimacy and immediacy of a small venue offers a magic that the concert (which has its own appeal) can't match. Maybe it's something that only appeals to the middle-aged. Of course, the yoof will be middle-aged one day. I hope I'm still around to see what happens.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

For the sake of accuracy and understanding, I think it's important that everyone should be aware that the Lewes Arms is actually an extremely unusual club - of a type of which there are only a handful in England, and with a number of other unique features too. The majority of artists who play there (for no guarantee, just door take) also conduct a well-paid workshop on the same day, which does have a significant impact on the whole deal. The workshops are very well established and very well respected and attended, and although there are other clubs in England who do this, I suspect the Lewes Arms is at the forefront in terms of numbers, and perhaps reputation. This makes it something of a UK hub - and sets it well apart from the other 95% of clubs in England. Also, there are TWO very successful clubs in Lewes, making the town something of a local hot-spot as well. That puts the Lewes Arms into a unique position - or very rare anyway. I understand that both clubs have been going for a long time - since the days when having two clubs in one town was quite common. This survival is down to the skill, hard work and dedication of both club teams (specially Vic and Valmai, who make the key decisions), both of whom know exactly what they are doing.

They also benefit each other with a synergy in marketing and promotion - which is again not unique, but unusual.

There IS a lot that other clubs can learn from the Lewes situation, but only if the full story is understood and taken into consideration - because without that understanding we could get a lopsided view of what might work or not in a 21st Century club. For example it's probably unlikely that setting up a new club today, next to an existing long-standing club, would produce a similar result, though I guess it might work (and even work very well) if there was co-operation between the teams, and a clearly defined strategy - going for different markets and/or putting on different types of event, for example.

Certainly many clubs promote their friend/rival clubs in their newsletters (Roland Walls' York club is a superb example) and ideas for twinning clubs in various ways have been raised in various places too.

By the way - if you run a club and would like to join the closed Folk Club Organisers forum, please mail:

[e-mail]

but you MUST say who you are, which club or venue you're involved with, and why you'd like to join up. I can't go letting any old riff-raff in, now can I! :-)

Tom