Earning a living in Folk

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

Ruth and Amy Notman and their mother have been stalwart supporters of the folkscene, like for ages round here. Yes they have been in folk clubs! Grrrr! be nice to people!

Tony - you disappoint me. No Agadoo! Like the rest of the folkscene you are going to leave these old folksongs just to the ordinary folk. That can't be right.

That is no way for qualify for an honorary degree in Folk Music and Moral Superiority.

The reason of course that the combined might of the middle classes can't get the folkscene out of the shit is that no one is capable of producing a song a tenth as catchy as Agadoo. The last time I saw people literally queuing round the block to get in a folk club was when Jasper Carrot was doing a gig the week Funky Moped was at number One.

Part of the reason folkclubs in the 1960's were so popular was that there were people like Dylan, Jansch, Donovan, the Spinners, the Corries etc. were producing memorable and commercially successful music. Joe Public felt that they were in touch with folkmusic. If you could get your collective heads above the idea that the tradition (good or bad) has to be protected and concentrate on finding the talent that would entertain your audiences - perhaps there would be interstices for more esoteric artists to work in.

A great starting place would be Una Walsh's voice in No Fixed Abode. Possibly technically the best voice on the folkscene. I've seen that voice unaccompanied stop a noisy pub full of drinkers dead in their tracks. And then get a standing ovation. No need for Agadoo - or any pandering to public foolishness. Carthy or Garbutt couldn't do that.

Why ain't they playing your club? Could it be your guestlist is a bit well....predictable!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

Can you not accept at least that my reality is as valid as yours?

Certainly as long as you can return the favour without accusing me of "folk Stalinism" simply for relating my own experience. It would help if you didn't condemn the entire "UK folk world" on the basis of your dismal experiences in Mudcaster.

As a matter of interest, are you saying that there are no folk clubs in Mudcaster or that the ones that there are are crap? If it's the latter, it's not surprising that you don't want to identify it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

Erm, I'm not Alex Petradis, Dave. Merely quoting him.

His words struck a recognisable chord with me that yours, for example, don't particularly. Instead I see the same old knee jerk defensiveness that Petradis points out. Which is a shame, because I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree on.

In any case, I don't think folk has a narrow viewpoint in terms of styles that can be taken on board by the folk club scene: in fact there's an argument that any old bollocks can be accepted as long as it has come up through the folk clubs (and some stuff that hasn't will sometimes get grudgingly accepted when people have no choice but to acknowledge that it is after all very good - like some of those young Newcastle graduates who some UK Mudcatters seem to think haven't paid their dues because they haven't spent four decades touting their wares round the backrooms of grimy pubs). I think - and this was the point Petradis was making - that the rot sets in when the wider world starts to take notice - hence the virulant attacks on forums like Mudcat that people like Kate Rusby, Rachel Unthank and Seth Lakeman have been subject to, that you yourself have rightly condemned: often these attacks are not about the pros and cons of the music but a simple case of shooting anyone with the audacity to stick their head over the parapet. But with the folk club world being as it is, these people need to stick their necks out because it seems there's not enough in folk world to sustain them. I suspect that's equally true for a lot of musicians who have yet to scale the dizzy (and in some quarters apparently unforgivable) heights of having names some members of the general public might recognise.

My generation largely turned its back on folk music and particularly folk clubs. Some of us have come back to folk music but much fewer to folk clubs. Why is that? Do you think its inevitably because there's something wrong with us? Or do you think it's largely because that's not where we find what we want? That we might actually prefer festivals, concerts and sometimes (as long as its a spade calling itself a spade) informal singarounds? And how come so many of the performers in the generation down from mine are happy to play festivals and concerts, but at best and with a few clubs as notable exceptions, largely ambivalent about folk clubs? That was the point I was making with my list... if there was a healthy club scene surely a fair few of the people on my list would be gigging at these clubs several nights a week? Its all very well to tell me that that you can have a better time than me over in Sheffield (I'm happy for you, I really am) but that still doesn't alter the reality of what its like where I live. Fancy a house swap for a month? Didn't think so...

Finally, I'm a bit disappointed that you take such a "whatever" attitude to the fact that some of us who love and support this music feel like outsiders to the folk club world. If the folk club world is analogeous to golf clubs, we have gone a very long way down a wrong turning, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not happy with the idea of it being ok that this music remains the preserve of cosy, inward looking elites. At best it's far, far too good for that.

I'd like to be able to persuade my friends to listen to folk music without them dismissing it out of hand before they've even heard it because of what they believe about its image. My contention is that though the media may have given that image a helping hand, the folk scene created it and perpetuates it for themselves.

At least you, Dave, are disc jockeying folk to an audience that might sometimes contain non-folkies. That's a good thing.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM

The problem is of course that this music comes from grimey pubs.

Extract the grime, or try and bypass it in some phoney way - and something is quite identifiably missing.

You will have your supporters in the music industry. But I warn you - from thirty years experience - they aren't really very nice people in the music industry. Martin Carthy in a recent interview accused them of 'acting like pack animals' - and for once I agree with the great man.

The only nice thing about the music business is the music.

still I bet you look good on the dancefloor.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

Erm... Where's Mudcaster?

Snail, I'm not identifying the town I'm from or the clubs I'm talking about on a public forum, because the people I've met who run them are decent enough people and I wouldn't want to publically humilate them. Let's just say what they believe is a good thing is to my way of thinking a pretty miserable, dismal thing. I believe I could travel to other towns in the region for slightly better clubs, but lets face it, I wouldn't do that for rock or jazz or cinema or theatre, so why for folk? Are we saying it's such a specialist genre that I have to drive twenty to forty miles to listen to it in a halfway decent club? The last truly decent club I went to (though the venue that housed it was a bit bobbins) was an hour and a quarter's drive away. Now there may be something else ok that's closer, but an hour and a quarter's drive there and an hour and a quarter's drive back really is too much. On a school night too.

Meanwhile, Snail I absolutely accept your version of reality being right for you. What I don't accept is that you seem to think we're all bonkers for saying "It's not like that where we come from".

Having said that, "Folk Stalinism" was a little harsh. So I will withdraw the term with a small but perfectly formed apology and retire to my withdrawing room to come up with a more apt turn of phrase.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:23 PM

Hmmm. WLD. There's grimy pubs and then there's grimy pubs though, aren't there?

For the record, as far as I know I have no friends in the music industry.

Unless you count musicians who also have to do waitering and bum wiping and guitar lessons and so forth to pay the rent.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

Its a personal choice if you wipe bums rather than set to work finding out some place you can play music for a living. For some people that's the right choice.

But you don't become a folksinger in a vacuum. Even people who seem artless and ethnic generally have some sort of feel for the audience. And you develop that in front of sentient beings. Call it performance skills, or what you will.

But these songs gain their power from an audiece following the story or identifying with the feeling in the lyric. One of the most overlooked skills is the way a good folksinger will punctuate the lyric thoughtfully.

you can learn some of these sklll singing Engelbert Humperdink songs in a pub. you won't learn them at home wiping bums.

Similarly - folksingers frequently dismay me with the dumbass things they say about recording and PA settings. Then you see these same people whingeing and making faces as though the PA man is a fool when they don't realise they are standing half a mile from a unidirectional microphone - the sound man turns the volume up trying to get some of their offering to the audience and the whole system starts feeding back. Instead of gettting out and finding out practical knowledge for themselves, they read some trash in a magazine about the way Martin or Ry Cooder sets up his guitar.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: oggie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

In my non-folkie life I am a craftworker, I cut wood into shapes. I am also (like the folk world) one of a small number who does it full time and earn my living from it. I do it the same way as full-time folk professionals do it, I follow the money. I have a permanent pitch in York where I cut kid's names. I can do a lot more than that, in fact I get offered lots of other work. Bottom line is I do that because I can earn a living doing it.

Now I would love to take my high value stuff round festivals and boutique craft fairs, I don't baecause I can't earn a living that way, cutting names ona street in York I can.

I am also (like professional folk musicians) good at what I do, I have a fund of stories to keep my queue happy and I have my public persona (which has taken a lot of years to perfect).

How does this apply to making a living out of folk? It's the same set of skills and the same hard headed realism. The money's in Haven Holiday Camps? Good luck to you and well done for finding an opening! Old Peoples Homes, school's workshops? Ditto. No one is owed a living and being a freelance anything is hard work and those who make it succeed deserve their wages.

If the clubs can't afford what they need to make a wage then either they have to find other venues or they cease to make their living from the clubs. If they can do that, then again I say good luck to them. They'll have done the work and found a way that works for them but please don't whinge and say "our club can't afford them" the truth is also that they may not be able to afford your club! (Any club organisers here make a living out of their club? Of course not, you don't have to, it's not your living)

Steve

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Does't Nigel 'hurdy-gurdy' Eaton have a Daytime Job ?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

Oggie,

I'm certainly not complaining that we can't afford certain acts....as I say above, good luck to them. If they have found a way to make it pay then all due respect. I'm merely facing a reality that we can't put on everyone that people would like to see.....the maths don't add up.

If folk club organisers tried to make a living out of their folk clubs, there would be no money for the acts!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: oggie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:06 PM

Paul

I wasn't having a go at you or any other organiser (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). As you say "the maths don't add up", it cuts both ways.

Be well and good luck

Steve

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

Erm... Where's Mudcaster?

Mudcaster is a fictional conurbation of my own invention intended to stand in as a humorous substitute for your own anonymous home metropolis.
Mudcaster - Mudcaters. Geddit?

If the folk club organisers in Mudcaster are decent folk, why not approach them with some useful suggestions? Recommendations of people you'd like them to book could hardly cause offence. I'm sure they'd be grateful for the benefit of your wisdom. On the other hand, they might say "Are you that Ewan Spawned a Monster wot's been slagging us off on Mudcat? Get stuffed."

If they are still in business, it suggests that they are attracting audiences. Everyone's out of step except you?

What I don't accept is that you seem to think we're all bonkers for saying "It's not like that where we come from".

Since you know perfectly well I've never said anything of the sort, you don't need to accept it. Unlike you, John Kelly and Tom Bliss do get out and about in the country. They have both made some sweeping, damning and unsupported statements about the folk scene that I felt obliged to challenge. From what I have heard, both are excellent performers but I can't help feeling that some of the opinions they express are damaging to their own interests. Fortunately, I know of no other professional performers (and in my time, I have met a great many) who have expressed similar views.

Thank you for your "small but perfectly formed apology". Would you like to acknowledge my right to reply to attacks made on the whole folk club scene made on an open forum?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

" From what I have heard, both are excellent performers but I can't help feeling that some of the opinions they express are damaging to their own interests."

Both men offer sincere and coherent opinions about a subject they care deeply about, have given a large part of their lives to, and have earned the right by dint of sheer creative effort to speak their mind.

If you dismiss what people like this have to say on the grounds that it is tactless. You are missing a trick. In fact the bloody movement has missed so many tricks - its a wonder it exists at all!

At what point can they speak their mind - there won't be any point after they've retired. To refuse to book Tom or John because they've had the temerity to mention on mudcat that they need and deserve a few breaks - well its like not playing having Georgie Best in your team cos he had long hair. Its that stupid.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

I lost the first part of my reply and it is getting late - I'll come back to that tomorrow.

I'm not happy with the idea of it being ok that this music remains the preserve of cosy, inward looking elites. At best it's far, far too good for that.

Neither am I - my point is that it isn't the preserve of a cosy inward looking elite. If it was then the numbers of festivals would not have grown over the last ten years and the number of people attending them would not have grown either. If it was the preserve etc.....then there would not be loads of people buying melodeons (rarely seen in the sixties); more fiddle players than you can shake a stick at; two brass players in a sesssion this weekend and a large mix of other instruments. Bass clarinet x two at one festival I was at. Anyone see this in the sixties? I doubt it.

How come the number of festivals keeps growing - and that many of them have large percentage rises in numbers - where are these people coming from? Clearly this cosy inward looking elite are not being very succesful at keeping things to themselves.

I'd like to be able to persuade my friends to listen to folk music without them dismissing it out of hand before they've even heard it because of what they believe about its image. My contention is that though the media may have given that image a helping hand, the folk scene created it and perpetuates it for themselves.

You do actually say it all there. They dismiss it even though they have never heard it. The folk scene does not give out this message the media do - they are wrong generally since so few of them know what they are talking about. And it is why I spend so long contradicting them whenever I get the chance.

At least you, Dave, are disc jockeying folk to an audience that might sometimes contain non-folkies. That's a good thing.

Thank you and that is true in part. But I am lucky someone gives me two hours a week to play music I love. Occasionally others seem to like it too. And for that I am grateful. This coming Friday I shall be looking at the Anniversary of the Radio Ballads.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:11 PM

yeh, really sets your mind on fire......

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:29 AM

So to recapitulate:-

1) no we aren't a cosy inward looking gang of bores

2) there are unfortunately no positions vacant at the moment. The jobs where audiences fall about at your quaint Geordie accent, and the other one where audiences listen patiently to your long convoluted and odd sounding folk ballads are filled quite competently already. No we arn't looking for a replacement.

3)As you find non folk audiences a bit stupid (Agado-do-do!) and the places they congregate rather grimy - looks like its back to the arse wiping!

PS the slots on the radio station are filled this year - its forty years since the Radio Ballads, and frankly you're probably some hairy arsed meember of the lower classes - you wouldn't know about these things, and anyway you wouldn't be comfortable amongst people who so obviously are your superior - mentally, spiritually, aesthetically and intellectually.

Real ale anyone.....

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:32 AM

"They have both made some sweeping, damning and unsupported statements about the folk scene that I felt obliged to challenge. From what I have heard, both are excellent performers but I can't help feeling that some of the opinions they express are damaging to their own interests. Fortunately, I know of no other professional performers (and in my time, I have met a great many) who have expressed similar views."

My views are indeed sweeping - because I've been actively trying to get a handle on the national situation in folk clubs, as part of a larger effort which, if successful, might eventually provide some benefits to the whole movement. My comments have not been damning, though (perhaps they might feel so to a few if they touched a raw nerve, in which case my apologies, but maybe it needed saying). They have been balanced, I hope - but forthright. And they are not unsupported - they are based on observations and discussions with club organisers and other touring artists over a number of years (many of whom, in both camps, have been desperately worried for the future of the club scene). I'm not sure who is a stronger position to do this. There are those who've been on the scene longer, but I'm hoping that my fresh eyes are helping me to see the actual situation today more clearly - and that my years in corporate communications and consultancy may bring a few insights as well.

That said, at the end of the day they are just my opinions, though I do try to express them tactfully and a non-confrontational manner.

I have only occasionally encountered serious 'silo mentality' among organisers. Most people are keen (even desperate if they have problems) to share and learn and build. The vast majority are brilliant at what they do - fantastic people who I really admire and who I'm proud to call friends. The only real problems occur when people believe that what happens in their patch is universal, and so judge other situations from a flawed standpoint. This can be very damaging - specially if they have closed minds, and/or are uncomfortable about 'constructive feedback.'

I am aware that it looks like I'm biting the hand that feeds me - but I'm not getting lots of stick from my club-running chums. I don't see my bookings going down, and if they do - well, unlike some, I'm not intending to tour for the rest of my life, so I can probably take the hit better than some of my mates, who are very reasonably nervous about upsetting ANY potential booker. Many have also got used to things which if they encountered them fresh might give them pause for thought.

I'm also aware that there is sometimes a big gap between what touring artists think privately, and what they're prepared to say at the supper table after the gig. We are house guests as well as club guests, and I realised early on in my career that not only was the folk scene a silo, but that there were silos within it - and there was little going on to break down those walls.

Honest, open talking is a good thing. Criticism (tactfully put, hopefully) is to be welcomed (that goes for artists too - I wish I had more feedback from those who DON'T like what I do)! Change is not to be feared, and we can all learn from each other.

I think we should all listen to Ewan. It may be too late for his generation (sorry Ewan), but his views are honestly put, and though he presents the club movement with a big challenge his speaks for a large groups of potential audients and participators (and organisers) out there. If there's any way to bring him inside the glass, or better still take out the pane, well - it's worth a go.

Isn't it?

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:43 AM

Thanks Tom. I really appreciate what you've just written.

ESAM

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:02 AM

Some brief factual corrections to statements made a few posts above: the majority of guests at the Lewes Arms do not do a workshop.

We run every Saturday night as a folk club with a guest almost every week and put on an average of fifteen all-day workshops a year. With very few exceptions, such as New Roots finalists travelling from a long way away, we book people for the amount taken on the door. Our room is licensed for a maxiumum of fifty people. Advertising costs are covered by a raffle.

We have a committee of ten and decisions are made by a majority, not an individual. Organising work is shared between members of the committee.

Valmai (Lewes)

P.S. Will Duke's workshop on the tunes of Scan Tester for any instrument next Saturday (5th. July) is sold out, but we are keeping a waiting list in case of cancellations. Will is donating all workshop fees after expenses to the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House. He performs at the club in the evening.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:09 AM

My apologies Valmai - thank you for your correction. Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:13 AM

"odd sounding folk ballads"....

There goes that double standard again. The ones who don't do or like folk expect, nay demand, that those who do do and like folk should accept the sound and presentation of non-folk material (for example Agadoo) while the non-folkies are justified (they say) in rejecting folk because it sounds "odd".

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:31 AM

lighten up Richard, the sun is shining....

I admit I prefer the way Joan Baez used to sing Geordie over the way Martin does it. Martin has his reasons and his perspective and a brilliant work rate, and he's a superlative musician.

But yeh, it sounds a bit odd to most people.

Would that be the original version of Agadoo that you don't think belongs in the tradition, or the 10 inch re-mix?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

As club organisers I do think we should listen to the constructive points that Tom and Ewan are trying to make. There are certainly things I can learn from their opinions.......anyone else?

WLD, I understand the point you are making, but let's face it Agadoo is crap (and so are SOME presentations of long traditional ballads)!

Beautiful day here in North Yorks!

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

We're souding like an old married couple Richard. I'm expecting, nay demanding unreasonable things of you.....

People will say we're in love.......

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:34 AM

I'm going back to mother.....!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:48 AM

Hi Tom

And we can talk about this more tomorrow evening - I'll get there early!!

It seems that Ewan is saying there are no decent folk clubs where he lives, so he has stopped going to folk clubs where he lives.

He and others seem happy to conflate folk music and folk clubs.

They assume that because one aspect of folk music is struggling - moribund even - the other sections are similar.

And please take account of the fact that I am of the generation that didn't want your folk clubs and apparently, judging fom what you all seem to be saying about folk music skipping a generation, still, on the whole, doesn't.

Ewan seems to be able to speak for a whole generation (!!) who didn't like the folk clubs and because they don't like them don't go to them. The conclusion he seems to draw is that his generation has missed out on folk music. Ewan - they go to sessions if they play and they go to festivals and often they do both. I was at a festival this last weekend - anyone who was there will tell you there was a huge age range including plenty of 40 somethings as far as I could gather. And that applies to all the festivals I have been to this year.

When I go to a folk club I do see (mostly) an older generation. I don't see anyone stopping people coming in - in fact as far as I can see most folk clubs seem to welcome visitors. But that doesn't apply to all of them. But those who don't go to folk clubs get their folk music in other ways, so it isn't the music that is dying.

As for people being shot at when they poke their noses over the parapet, let's examine these. The criticism of Rachel UnthankATW that provoked rows was (as I remember) was along the lines that they were a manufactured group based on floaty dresses and looks, a created band been made up by a folk svengali. And sold out to EMI.

It was nonsense so when people who feel it is nonsense reply - a row ensues and Alex Petridis (it is "Petridis") and his ilk write "Row over new folk stars who have broken the mould of beer -willing tankard-carrying sandal-wearing bearded folkies".

The row over Seth Lakeman was NEVER about his music but about the fact that one of his self-penned songs was entered in the "traditional" category of the BBC Folk Awards. I know this because I appeared on Radio 4's Feedback about it and started off by saying precisely that it was not about his music.

Again this became ""Row over new folk stars who have broken the mould of beer -willing tankard-carrying sandal-wearing bearded folkies".

The row about Kate Rusby (as far as I know) once again was never about her music but about the amount of publicity Mike Harding gave her.

And have you noticed how they are invariably described as "young folk stars". Seems like no-one can be bothered to check their ages.

Alex Petridis as far as I can see is saying "Every time I go the the video store there are fewer and fewer videos and nobody is watching them. I can't buy a video machine anymore. There is a row about the quality of programmes on TV. The conclusion I draw is that no-one is watching TV and no-one is watching recorded TV".

And when someone points out people are watching on-line TV, satellite TV and DVD's, the headline is written "Row over TV watching".

And by the way I did a house swap in 2002 for a month.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:49 AM

Re Tom Bliss's post of 2.32 above.

I really believe that "removing the pane" is a far better solution than heaving me, as one individual, in through the window. In the second scenario the rest of the "potential audients and participators (and organisers)" remain outside. In truth, though I might sometimes come across like a whinger with nothing good to say about folk clubs, I'd much rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. If I just accepted what I'm currently offered locally unconditionally, I'd merely be contributing to the perpetuation of the current situation. Maybe that's what I should do, some of you? Just shut up and put up? Would that be better? Respect the status quo, don't rock the boat?

Folkie Dave makes a good point about the festival scene being proof that the folk world has the potential to be more inclusive and outward looking than its danker corners would lead you to believe was possible. However, I don't necessarily think that the younger people attending these festivals are largely folk club stalwarts - they simply like folk festivals (and in some cases maybe concerts and singarounds and sessions). I also suspect that the festival circuit would not be enough for most performers to earn them a living (to briefly return to the original post).

However, if there is a range of folk clubs scattered across the country that consistently attract, say, 50% of their audiences from the under 40s, I'd genuinely love to hear about them. In fact, it would be the best (folk related) news I'd have heard in a long time. I think our differing perspectives on this probably stem from our differing starting points - the posters here are largely on the inside (although unlike some in that position, at least Dave and Tom appear to understand and appreciate the value of looking out of the window whilst beckoning in a comely manner) whilst I'm not part of the folk scene (as far as I know), I'm just a "paying customer" who came to folk via recorded music and hoped to follow this up by attending live performances at folk clubs and have found the experience unsatisfactory on many levels due largely, it would appear, to an accident of geography.

Finally, Snail, my comments are not meant as an attack on "the whole folk club scene" and to continue to misrepresent them as such comes across as essentially an attempt to stifle what to my mind is a perfectly valid discussion. Why would you want to do that? My words on this forum are not exactly going to cause - say - the Lewes Arms to implode. What they might do, and what I hope they do, is to contribute to a longer term process of opening out the folk club scene to a newer audience who may carry it on in some form. After all none of us would like them to die out with the generation that currently dominates them, would we? Snail, you have two great clubs in your small town. You can afford to be complacent. Some of us aren't so lucky. Please don't piss on our fireworks when all we want to do is make things as good for ourselves as they are for you. Is that not a reasonable and decent thing to hope for?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:09 AM

Dave, you seem to be conflating my comments about folk clubs with my beliefs about folk music. I think folk music and the festivals and to some extent the singarounds and sessions are in a pretty healthy state. As with anything, there's always room for improvement - there has to be, in order to avoid atrophy... and there's really no point arguing with Alex P, because he isn't contributing to this thread. I quoted ONE SENTENCE from an article he wrote to illustrate a point I was making about something Snail had said... phew!

I really don't claim to 'speak for a generation' - my initial thoughts on this were semi-facitious responses to earlier comments about my generation 'abandoning' folk music in general and clubs in particular. I'm not really grandiose enough to speak for anyone but myself, honest! Although I do know I'm far from alone in my opinions...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:47 AM

Folkiedave,

Just to pick up on one or two points that you have made. I don't think all of the criticisms leveled at RU & TW are about how they have become popular, it is to do with the music as well. They have piano for goodness sake ...... they didn't set me alight at Dent. I'm not saying they are not good, just not my cup of tea. KR and SL I do really enjoy. (just thought it is worth saying that as context for my RU & TW comment i.e. I have no problem with people being succesful.)

I don't think Ewan is trying to speak for the whole of his (my) generation....... he does very eloquently make some useful contributions that all folk club organisers who are concerned with bringing in new blood (both artists and audience) should pay heed to. We should be trying to provide an offering that folk friendly folk like Ewan can buy into...... he is the potential audience that we currently miss.

I have to agree with your point about the age range at Dent Folk Festival. It is very well organised to appeal right across the spectrum. Both baby Banjimen (aged 7 & 8) had a really great time, they met a lot of friends both from previous years and new .... and there are a lot of organised activities for kids..... which meant that Mr & Mrs Banjiman were able to really enjoy both the informal music making and the acts on both stages. Baby Banjiman 1 also really enjoyed singing on the Black Sheep stage as part of Mrs Banjiman's set. Lots & lots of families present and no one turning up their noses at kids "spoiling" their sessions. There were also lots of teenagers present who seemed to be really getting into the music, there was a real mosh pit for Shooglenifty on Saturday night.

With the main festival site being level (if soggy), I also noticed that wheelchair access was pretty good to all of the events.

Something for everyone really.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

weelittledrummer

Real ale anyone.....

Thanks very much WLD. Pint of Harvey's Best please. I think I'm going to need it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:08 AM

I was in HMV store last week and they previewing SL's new album.

I thought he seems like a decent young man. He's no Engelbert and he hasn't come the 'Agadoo' moment in his career yet, but I think he shows definite promise.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM

Sorry to start on a partly negative note, but the thread has got a bit towards treating Seth Lakeman as a watershed, and liking for him as a litmus test, and I don't think that that is wholly appropriate. Personally, I don't much like Seth Lakeman's take on the folk music he plays - I don't mind the bass heavy arrangements in fact I quite like them, what I don't like is that I simply don't recognise the tunes of folk songs he does (for example "The Setting of the Sun") and I don't see them put forward as new tunes to old songs. I would accept that if it were stated (like John Loomes version of "All for me Grog") - and then it would be a matter simply of whether that would become an accepted new (or alternative) tune for the song (as happened, I think to "Willie of Windsbury" by accident, or maybe it was the tune for that used for something else or like John Barden's tune for "The trees they do grow high"), but I will support his absolute right to do r-arrange (and re-melody, and re-word) folk songs and he does what he does very well. I'd prefer more "rock" timing than "disco", but that is a matter of personal preference. He seems a nice chap and once even nodded to me in a corridor in passing. Good luck to him, so long as he does not pretend that stuff that is not folk is folk.


I don't however see "constructive criticism" in Mr Monster. I don't read all his posts but what I perceive is him saying that the problem with folk clubs is folk music and they should get rid of it and put in modern "folkalike" music. A severe case of baby and bathwater.

Al, of course, is a big wind-up merchant, determined to exclude the middle classes and richer from true proletarian folk (as he defines it) and I am amused by the parallel with Lloyd's concept of "industrial folk" but the fact of the matter in the places I go to is that there are a range of people all happily folking away, from senior career diplomats, HNW persons, others making their fortunes in IT, lawyers, accountants etc, through teachers, social workers, various types of clerical and manual workers, transport workers, stress victims in early retirement, persons with mental health and psychological issues, quite a lot on minimum wage, and a range of claimants and "black economy" workers. Some even drink lager, and are only mildly ribbed for it. A middle class ghetto? I don't think so.

Incidentally, a lot of classical and rock musicians too struggle to live off their music, which is why the MU strives to restrict the entry of non-union labour wherever possible - so that those once in can earn more.

I'm more worried, I think, about the lack of strong singers amongst the young, particularly the women, although there have been some great ones at the late lamented Miskin festival, perhaps drawing on the Welsh habit of song, than I am about the difficulty musicians find in earning. There is a long tail in sports, too: a few high earners and many less well off and then the amateurs and semi-pros.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:46 AM

" Jackie Oates, Jim Causley, Jon Loomes, Spiers and Boden, the Askew Sisters, Bella Hardy, James Raynard, Mawkin, Ruth Notman, John Dipper "

........Richard, this was Ewan's list of wants for a folk club, unless you are getting all 1954 on us I'd hardly call them all "modern "folkalike" music", would you?

Must be a southern thing, lots of very good (and some brilliant) female singers in the north.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:52 AM

"what I perceive is him saying that the problem with folk clubs is folk music and they should get rid of it and put in modern "folkalike" music"

Wrong, wrong and so deeply wrong, it's almost beyond wrong!

In fact, wrong!

The folk music is often, and sometimes by the skin of its teeth and the seat of its pants, the the only good thing about folk clubs.

If I wanted to listen to non-traditional acoustic music, let's call it (which I often do), the last place I'd look for it is a folk club. Plurality of taste (if that's okay with you, sir) leads to plurality of venues.

There are plenty of venues catering to this sort of non-traditional acoustic music in my area. And in some cases doing a fine job of it, too, I might add.

I don't read all his posts

I'm deeply hurt.

No, not really, but it does allow me to take your comments with a pinch of salt...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:09 AM

'there are a range of people all happily folking away, from senior career diplomats, HNW persons, others making their fortunes in IT, lawyers, accountants etc, through teachers, social workers, various types of clerical and manual workers, transport workers, stress victims in early retirement, persons with mental health and psychological issues, quite a lot on minimum wage, and a range of claimants and "black economy" workers'.

y'see, this is the problem - none of yer actual musicians.

Oh folkmusic, that's something I do between being brilliant at social security fraud and getting Kirsty and Phil to help with the old property portfolio........

You know i was playing The Dorset four Hand reel on my trumpet when everyone else was segueing into Harvest Home and drops o Brandy. Lucky its all in D and no one noticed! what larks!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

Ooh dear, where do I start?

Tom Bliss

My comments have not been damning, though (perhaps they might feel so to a few if they touched a raw nerve, in which case my apologies, but maybe it needed saying).

Was the comment in parantheses aimed at me? If you've got anything specific you wish to accuse me of, please do so rather than resorting to innuendo.

From previous threads -

I just get so weary of reading posts here which not only fail to recognise, or seek to minimise, or deny, the influence of 'trade' music on the stuff we all enjoy hearing and doing, but worse, seek to present hard-working low-earning artists as harlots - often in terms can can wind up making folk enthusiasts, as a tribe, seem mean-spirited, 'hsibbons' (that's snobbish inverted, by the way), and frankly just ill-informed about what it takes - and means - to be 'successful.'

There are however a significant number of people (a group well-represented on internet forums) who delight in a 'hsibbons' view of trade music. They suggest, for example, that the influence of commerce is damaging to the tradition, that professionalism is a kind of prostitution, that the registration of arrangements is a kind of theft, that anyone wanting to make a living at music is only in it for the money (rather than a committed artist), that doing it well is bad, that being innovative is bad, that concerts are a betrayal of the song-handing ethos, and so on and on and on.

Sounds pretty damning to me.

I am aware that it looks like I'm biting the hand that feeds me - but I'm not getting lots of stick from my club-running chums.

So how do they respond to your accusations? Do they nod sagely and say "Oh yes. Not us of course, it's all those other clubs."

You have said elsewhere that there are (or possibly were) 400 clubs in the country. You have played 201 of them, there are another 30 that only book big names and 75 that used to book guests but no longer do for whatever reason but I doubt if they suddenly developed a deep loathing for paid performers; it was probably more a matter of finacial risk.

That's 306 leaving 94 some of which probably do book guests but just haven't booked you yet and some of which have never booked guests, perhaps because they are really glorified singarounds or, just maybe, because they think that anyone who wants to be paid for singing is scum.

I'm finding it hard to see any evidence for a widespread negative attitude to professional performers and yet "This has caused me more disappointment than anything else I've encountered in the folk world over the past 10 years".

I'm also aware that there is sometimes a big gap between what touring artists think privately, and what they're prepared to say at the supper table after the gig.

Are you saying that you know that other artists agree with you but are just too polite/scared to say so? That's quite a claim.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

Snail,

Do you not think that there is even a grain of reality in what Tom is saying?

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:00 AM

'Are you saying that you know that other artists agree with you but are just too polite/scared to say so? That's quite a claim.'

yep, and its true! but surely that's true about any business. You don't tell your clients what you think about them. Well you think so, but when you get some particularly cavalier treatment from a tradesman - you can't help thinking I wish I had that sort of business where you could just afford to tell people to get stuffed.

But Tom has natural good manners, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't say anything anyway however atrociously he was being treated. Most folksingers are used to accepting graciously hospitality(in whatever form it comes).

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Banjiman

As club organisers I do think we should listen to the constructive points that Tom and Ewan are trying to make. There are certainly things I can learn from their opinions.......anyone else?

Apart from what I've covered above, Tom also says -

Some even argue that all the non-trade system has done is encourage songs to fall into disrepair, and that it was always the working chaps (or those with a 'trade' attitude) who did the making, the mending and the significant disseminating.

I love that "Some even argue". Who does? It seems we are required to abandon the idea that the "folk process" is a creative one and that all "song makers" are, by definition, trade. I can't see that going down too well in the traditional clubs.

As far as I can see, Ewan's objection to folk clubs is that they aren't concerts -

As things stand, I've all; but given up, because those of us who "just want to listen" are second class citizens compared with those who enjoy the celebratory love-in that is participatory folk.

It's not so much clubs or even club organisers that he objects to but their current audiences who probably do annoying things like tapping their feet and joining in the choruses.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

Banjiman

Do you not think that there is even a grain of reality in what Tom is saying?

Quite possibly but Tom is not talking about "a grain of reality", he is claiming that it is an all pervading malaise that needs urgent action to fix it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:47 AM

Oh, I'm so glad nobody but folkies read this, when you have finished tearing chunks out of each other maybe you can make it to the real world occasionally.

Tom Bliss - you are amazing please keep singing and though it will never make you a million you will always make many, many people happy.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

I shall not be responding to Bryan's posts. I have explained to him privately that I find it impossible to debate with him because he interprets my words in ways that I never intended, and then does the same to my clarifications, and to my further explanations, until communication becomes impossible.

I will assure him, however, that I have not been addressing any of my very general comments to him personally.

I see no malaise, only some general confusions and misunderstandings, that might benefit from more open and honest debate, and the sharing of ideas an experiences.

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

It's not so much clubs or even club organisers that he objects to but their current audiences who probably do annoying things like tapping their feet and joining in the choruses

Oooh, snidey Snail! Is that really the best you can do?

Come on, man! You're losing your touch...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

Jackie Oates - lovely material, delivery a bit fey.
Jim Causley - some lovely material, some lovely sounding material, alas sadly affected by the tendency to sneer at "folk" (according to the words out of his own mouth on the wireless)
Jon Loomes - quite simply, great (although friends told me he forgot the words four or five times at a folk club the othe week).
Spiers and Boden - not to my personal taste but I recognise their ability. Very un-folk arrangements to my ear.
Mawkin - I like the sound of what I've heard.
Bella Hardy - I bought the CD on spec, having been told she was a new powerful female singer and I find every time it comes on the CD changer in the car I turn it off
Mawkin -I've liked the sound of the few bits I've heard

The rest, my jury is still out - but surely with the exception of Spiers and Boden who I think go as superstars these days all of that list can be seen in many concert clubs and the only hardcore traddy is Jackie Oates would you not agree?

Bellowhead through size are a special case and suited for big stage big rig (and I don't like all that brass), and I don't think Mr Monster wants them in his local club does he? Rachel Unthank I have listened to a bit and do not dislike - but for whatever reason they are now big time and surely beyond the budget of small venues.

But if it isn't the music (and surely that is the most important thing although bad ambience and bad beer can make it harder to appreciate) now I am lost what it is that Mr Monster doesn't want. I can see he is very annoyed about something maybe just the prescence and continued survival of people older than him, but if not that what then is it?

Moreover, even if I can get a handle on what he doesn't like - what is it he actually wants? Is it that he wants only concerts, and no floor singers? If it cannot be understood, how is his criticism constructive?



Al, you are still a wind-up! All or almost all of them were musicians. You don't have to be a full-time pro to be a musician, and if you say you do then two things follow: -

1. You are the one putting yourself in a ghetto, and
2. You'd better live up to the billing you give yourself. I'm sure you personally do, but it is the load you shouldered.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:36 AM

It seems that attempting to stand up for the folk scene that I love against attacks by people who ought to know better doesn't go down too well.

I'm sorry that Tom feels unable to debate the points he raises. It seems that even quoting him directly constitutes interpreting his words in a way he never intended.

I shall simply settle back into helping out with a successful and enjoyable folk club which gives me access to a great many talented and delightful performers, professional, semi-professional and downright amateur all of whom are united by a love of the music.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

Look Richard, you suggested I didn't want 'proper folk music' in clubs. I've disagreed with you. You've tried and failed to pick apart my 'off the top of my head' list and now you're moving the goalposts. I said that if there was a folk club locally putting on these sorts of acts I would happily go. In fact I would go even if the place was a flea pit with rubbish beer and all the charm of a pubic toilet.

I don't have a problem with old people. My dad's one. So are some of my friends.

Of course I don't expect Bellowhead to play folk clubs. Erm, I may be a few things but I'm not stupid.

I'm even prepared to concede that every single club in the country is a guaranteed brilliant night out (except the ones I've been to that weren't) and I've just been incredibly unlucky. Except I know from what others have said to me that this simply isn't true.

Maybe after years of going to see non folk music, often in small venues where the gigs have been organised by enthusiastic amateur promoters, by comparison the folk clubs I've been to seem a bit shoddy, tawdry, dreary. I don't usually measure the pleasure I'm experiencing by the number of times I look at my watch, for example.

I think I'll just have to admit that I've not really enjoyed my local folk clubs, put it down to experience and leave it at that. If the people who go there all like things exactly as they are, good luck to them. I'll just have to stick to CDs and the odd festival and concert and get my initimate, small scale, live music experiences outside of the confines of the folk world. It's a shame, but I haven't got enough spare time to sit through not very good nights out on the off chance that one day I might not be disappointed. I don't think that's unreasonable.

And like the atheist jealous of the believer, I want to like folk clubs.

I liked The Bothy in Southport when I visited. Bit far away to be my 'local', though...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

Oooh, snidey Snail! Is that really the best you can do?

Come on, man! You're losing your touch...

OK, Ewan, I'll take you as a role model from now on.

But watch your step or I'll tell the good people of Mudcaster who you really are and the folk vigilantes will be after you.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

I liked The Bothy in Southport when I visited. Bit far away to be my 'local', though...

...unless you give yourself away first.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

"But watch your step or I'll tell the good people of Mudcaster who you really are and the folk vigilantes will be after you."

Not entirely sure how to take this. I'm hoping it's humour...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

Snail....

That's Tom Bliss and John Kelly you've issued veiled "you'll never work again (or not in my club)" threats too and now you're threatening ESAM with the folk vigilantes (and I understand the serious intent behind that veiled threat too).

This is a "discussion" board where people throw around ideas & opinions ....... you really need to lighten up and let others express an opinion, even if it differs from your own. You are in danger of appearing to be a bully.

The folk "scene" is not above criticism, there are some good points being made here (and some not such good ones) that we should consider carefully before dismissing out of hand.

Paul