BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

I'm not entirely sure that there IS a truly fair way of voting. Proportional voting may come closest, but even that has its injustices.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:06 PM

JiK, isn't that divorced from reality, when in the real world most political elections are two-horse races?


Azizi, while the study you cite provides argument, I do not see it as refutation. I also think it focusses on the wrong thing. IMHO the rejection of "acting white" and the associated labels (coconut, bounty bar, etc) are not related to success, but to the acceptance or rejection of authority. Academic failure may follow, but it is cause, not effect.

A similar phenomonon is present in less favoured white populations, too, and is (IMHO) responsible for the reduced social mobility being seen and criticised in the UK. The analysis blaming lack of opportunity is IMHO faulty. Previous mobility came about because those wishing to "succeed" were prepared to emulate the behaviour patterns of the more successful. Now that is rejected, as is seen by the social rejection n less favoured groups of those perceived to be "snobs", and the slumcult spread of esturine English, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:10 PM

JiK, don't you mean "fewest"?

No. If you allowed each voter to vote to remove one unacceptable candidate the one who would get the most "votes" in that form of "unelection" will be the most likely winner in any conventional three-way contest between credible candidates, at least according to the multiple different analyses prevented in the articles.

In fact, a "blackball vote" was one method proposed for getting the candidate not UNacceptable to the largest fraction of the voters. Each person would vote against one candidate, and the one with the least votes would win. While it would be entirely possible that almost everybody would like someone else a bit more, the winner here would be more likely to be "intolerable for the fewest."

Believe it or not, there were some pretty good arguments for this being a better method than our current confusion, although there wasn't much comment on the possible ways to "beat the system" if someone tried it out. And since our leaders all know how to manipulate the present system (which looked good in theory once), they'd be unlikely to give it up for the experiment.

The math gets complex, and of course the results are only statistical predictions; but the simple "majority gets to pick one" has certain elements of unfairness likely (with high probability) to be expressed in the real world.

But of course fairness has nothing much to do with politics.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

pdq, you are right- I think that was Charles Barkley who said he can't jump. (Never noticed it slowing him down too much.)

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:42 PM

Gee, Crazyhourse...I always believed that binary thinking would get you in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM

Here's an excerpt from Ralph Nader's Wikipedia page:

"Nader was born in Winsted, Connecticut. His parents, Nathra and Rose Nader, were Maronite Catholic immigrants from Lebanon. Rose and Nathra Nader's native language is Arabic, and Ralph has spoken it along with English since childhood."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:41 PM

pdq, there're 10 types of people; those that understand the basis of computers and those that don't

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

Crazyhorse...remember, never take Mudcat too seriously. It is here for people to have fun. I was playing with font color. Kinda cool, eh? I think it relates to Nader who can't really be White or Black since he insists he is a Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:20 PM

mg, I believe that some Black students equate "acting White" with succeeding academically in school. However, I think that if those Black students were to attend schools with White students, and if they had more opportunities interacting with White students after school, then they wouldn't continue to have this belief in inherent White superiority [academic, or otherwise].

Unfortunately, for various reasons, many public schools in the United States are still largely segregated, even in cities that have sizable numbers of non-White people. Consequently, many of these Black students who equate "acting White" with academic achievement have had little to no experience going to school with non-Black students.

Thank goodness, my experiences in integrated public schools and college showed me that I was wrong to think that White people-as a group and not as individuals-were smarter than non-Black people as a group and not as individuals.

Here's an article on this subject that you and others may be interested in:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/100/100_cover_acting_white.htmlActing White? African American Students and Education by Thomas Rhymes, Ph.D.

The African American author of this article refutes the commonly held belief that African American students connect "acting White" with academic success.

Here is an excerpt from that article:
"Somehow many African Americans (usually the affluent, disconnected ones) have swallowed this misconception about African-American youth being anti-intellectual and anti-education. This ideology concerning nerds and geeks did not originate in the African-American community, but in predominantly white, middle-class, suburban communities. In our schools, being smart just doesn't matter much. Kids don't admire it or despise it. All other things being equal, they would prefer to be on the smart side of average rather than the dumb side, but intelligence counts for far less than, say, physical appearance, charisma, or athletic ability. Think about it, high school athletes get more press and recognition than those on the debate teams. As a matter of fact, how many academic competitions do we have in our public schools? It seems like sheer hypocrisy, to me, for anyone to suggest that African Americans place less value on education than the rest of the population."

-snip-

Here's another excerpt:

"Let's say for a moment, that I actually bought into this misconception about African-American youths' aversion to education; when the curriculum is viewed from our social studies, history and English classes across the country; it's easy to see how education and "whiteness" becomes inseparable. No, I do not believe that education in and of itself should be viewed as white, but I am saying that I can understand why it may be viewed that way by some.

For example, most of the history classes (World & U.S.) focus mostly on people of European descent. Curriculum in our public schools continues to be either opposed to or indifferent about a more multi-cultural emphasis. Only a handful of our public school students know more than the customary African-American figures (Frederick Douglass, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Harriet Tubman etc.) displayed in our curriculum. The study of world history usually begins with the Roman Empire (untouched is the study of the ancient Egyptian, Nubian or Ethiopian civilizations) and ends with modern Europe. Secondary U.S. History curriculum similarly omits any significant study of the institution of slavery or Reconstruction and their role in this country's history. These omissions become even more glaring when classes such as African-American studies are not required courses. English Literature courses may devote a few weeks a year (usually around February) to authors such as Langston Hughes, Alice Walker, James Baldwin or Toni Morrison; hardly enough time for the average student to become familiar with African-American history or culture".

-snip-

Dr. Rhymes also makes the point that entrance to honors programs in schools are often biased against African Americans. And he makes other points refuting the belief that African Americans students equate acting White with excelling in school.

**

After reading that article I still believe that some Black students equate "acting White" with succeeding in school. And I still maintain that if those Black students went to school with White students they wouldn't have that belief for long {because they would see that some White students don't do well academically and they'd see that some Black students do better than some White students.

My bottom line? I believe that we should be talking about improving the education system, the curriculum, teacher training, and the over-all learning environment in public schools so that students-regardless of race and ethnicity-learn to value learning and not just learn to value getting good grades.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:16 PM

IBM, mm yes, but big blue didn't invent the pc. A lot happened before they got involved, try googling zilog and digital research; some of us worked on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

There's an echo in this room ;P

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:04 PM

In July of 1980, IBM representatives met for the first time with Microsoft's Bill Gates to talk about writing an operating system for IBM's new hush-hush "personal" computer. IBM had been observing the growing personal computer market for some time. They had already made one dismal attempt to crack the market with their IBM 5100. At one point, IBM considered buying the fledgling game company Atari to commandeer Atari's early line of personal computers. However, IBM decided to stick with making their own personal computer line and developed a brand new operating system to go with. The secret plans were referred to as "Project Chess". The code name for the new computer was "Acorn". Twelve engineers, led by William C. Lowe, assembled in Boca Raton, Florida, to design and build the "Acorn". On August 12, 1981, IBM released their new computer, re-named the IBM PC. The "PC" stood for "personal computer" making IBM responsible for popularizing the term "PC".

The first IBM PC ran on a 4.77 MHz Intel 8088 microprocessor. The PC came equipped with 16 kilobytes of memory, expandable to 256k. The PC came with one or two 160k floppy disk drives and an optional color monitor. The price tag started at $1,565, which would be nearly $4,000 today. What really made the IBM PC different from previous IBM computers was that it was the first one built from off the shelf parts (called open architecture) and marketed by outside distributors (Sears & Roebucks and Computerland). The Intel chip was chosen because IBM had already obtained the rights to manufacture the Intel chips. IBM had used the Intel 8086 for use in its Displaywriter Intelligent Typewriter in exchange for giving Intel the rights to IBM's bubble memory technology.

Less than four months after IBM introduced the PC, Time Magazine named the computer "man of the year"

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

There's an echo in this room

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Personal computers did not get going in any substantial sense till the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

Way back in the 60s, when personal computers were just creeping into the colleges

Not in the 60s they weren't! Maybe a (very) few in the 70s, though not many, it didn't really start until the 80s

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance!" LH

Hey! I can dance!! But I can't jump - bad knees. 'Course, I'm not white - sorta a light pinky-beige where the sun don't hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

Isn't Nadar of mixed cultural (I don't believe mixed ethnically, but I could be wrong) heritage? Wasn't he the first Arab-American (I believe of Christian heritage) to run for president? Don't know. I do not know,b ecause I have not followd him carefully, if he practices what he preaches and addresses issues particularly of concern to other Arab (or Lebanese) Americans.

When we get around to the "race dialog" we..meaning someone else..must talk, more than any other topic I think..about "acting white." This fear of being labeled as doing that has kept so many students from succeeding..has put pressure on them to act sometimes in not so great ways....it is a nut that has to be cracked sooner or later..that "acting white" and acting all sorts of other ways can be respectful, responsible, and leave room for cultural differences...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Well, I ain't gonna jump on Ralph Nader none on this one even if he was being a tad insensitive... Okay, more than a tad... Hey, the man is like 74 years old and is a tad on the cranky side these days... Okay, maybe more than just a tad... And Ralph is prolly a tad paranoid of the Dems wnatin' to blast him for 2000... Okay, more than a tad paranoid... So Ralph tired to nmake a point that got outta hand and ended up soundin' like a jerk...

I can forgive him 'cause I like Ralph... I really do and I've voted for him alot and I know that he must be frustarted because alot of his old supporters are on the Obama bandwagon and like Ralph says when Dems jump on him for 2000, I'd say this to my ol' bud, "Get over it, Ralph" and I'd add, "...and chill..."

Ralph Nader isn't the enemy... He juts a somewhat burned out ol'
revoltionary and I just ain't gonna get into this any further 'cause like I said, "I like Ralph"... I really do...

And I like Obama and that's the way it is...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

I can jump. I jumped off a 10 foot high overhang once. Sprained my ankle pretty darned bad, too. I also jumped out of an airplane (with a parachute, from about 5,000 feet); that taught me not to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

Sounds like Charles Barkley.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance!" LH

They mostly can't jump, though. :) I don't remember which Black player it was who said, I have White Man's disease- can't jump worth a hoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:45 PM

" Well, he (man) worships at the altar of a stagnant pool, and when he sees his reflection, he's fulfilled. All he believes are his eyes, and his eyes they just tell him lies, but there's a woman on my block, she just sits there while the night grows still, she says 'Who's gonna take away his license to kill?' "

- Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

JiK, don't you mean "fewest"?

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

Obama talks sense. No wonder Nader can't understand him. People like Obama, Tiger Woods, and dozens of other public figures of mixed cultural heritage fight this every day. They try to be proud and aware of their heritage while struggling to NOT be required to 'sound' or 'act' like ANY particular stereotype!

Try this test...listen to the news on TV with your eyes closed,...pretend you are blind... and ask yourself whether the man sounds reasonable when you can't TELL his color or heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

The rest of Nader's little rant is equally disappointing. He seems to believe that Obama, being an African American, should be focusing on what he is going to do for the African American community. Nader doesn't seem to get the point that he's running for President of the United States, not President of the African American people of the United States. I'm sure that Obama does have personal views of the situation as he sees it, but Nader is fooling no one with his assesment of Obama. Is Nader focusing only on the problems occuring in whatever race, creed, color, religious sector that spawned him? I don't see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

Bob Barr's site.

His voting record is available to view.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

The siphoning off effect is the reason we can be thankful for Bob Barr's candidacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

'Way back in the 60s, when personal computers were just creeping into the colleges, there was a real spurt in the analysis of social issues using the new calculating power that was being unleashed.

Scientific American ran a series - about three months worth - of articles describing studies of "elections."

While there were lots of variations in approaches, statistical models, and wishful thinking in the various studies reported, the single irrefutable conclusion of them all was:

In a three candidate election in which all three candidates have at least sufficient attraction to make a blip in the results, the candidate who will nearly always win is the one UNACCEPTABLE to the most people.

(Most of the debate in the articles was about whether there's anything that could be done about it.)

Mr Nader's ego continues to prove the point - if only by showing that he can (maybe still) siphon off his handful of "protest votes." Whether he can draw enough to seriously harm those nearest to agreeing with him is - perhaps - arguable, but that he provides a major assist to the side he most despises can't be disputed with any convincing arguments I can think of.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

I don't give a fart in a windstorm how you talk or what your accent is. I want to hear your ideas and then I want you to act upon them. A presidential candidate cannot be one-issue, single faceted, because the problems facing the country are extremely complex and will require complex solutions. Just communicate.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

I agree with Azizi 100% on this.

I, too, use different forms of English when I am addressing specific groups of people.

I am now retired and the first thing I noticed was that my speech was more relaxed. As a teacher, I had to monitor the use of my own language on a daily basis because I worked with children and because I had to use standard English as a professional. Now I can talk any way I want to and the more I speak my own language, the more I feel more like my own self. Language is the expression of who you are and when you come from a mixed cultural background, you learn to monitor your speech according to your audience.

There is standard English (the Queen's variety) and then there are all the variations. The variety of English you use depends more on educational influence (and your audience) than on the colour of your skin.

Nader was way off base. That kind of thinking will (hopefully) go the way of the dinosaur. Obama gives us hope that we can now move forward and leave the stereotypes behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance! ;-)"

I ain't one of 'em, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

There surely seem to be a few times when Barack Obama has made a play of a black word or gesture - the bump, the shoulder brushing. So why does he not address the particular issues that more affect black Americans than whie ones? He might be accused of playing up the black when it suits him, but ducking the heavy hitters in the money system.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

Barack Obama speaks human-being, and no other language. He can put on jive in any color, but when he says what is really on his mind, it's human that comes out.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Skivee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

IMHO Ralph's reasoning is difficult to understand because his larnyx is constricted by the muscular band of his own anus around his throat.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

Seems like Obama is talking normally to me. He doesn't sound like a stereotypical Black man on some popular TV show. Great!

I knew a Black man in the 60's and he talked normally too. His name was Reynolds Winslow. He talked and dressed like Sydney Poitier, who also talks normally. He gave the impression of being himself, not a stereotype of a media-driven racial profile.

You do not have to go on in some exaggerated ghetto patios and "cool" expressions of that sort in order to be "Black"...and it's a relief to see someone like Obama who is not pandering to that particular kind of mannerism in order to create some kind of self-conscious image of himself as a Black person.

And you know what else? There are white people who can dance! ;-)

I get the impression that Obama is running as a human being rather than as a race stereotype. What a refreshing thing that is. But he's living in a society that is so hung up on race stereotypes that they are not willing to let him just BE a human being. That is not Barack Obama's error, it is the error of the society around him.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

Nader lost the plot years ago. Anti-business is his business.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

I notice he makes some fairly offensive generalizations about White people as well. Ah, well. We can be thankful for Bob Barr's candidacy this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

"Is it because he wants to talk white?"

Wow. Speaks loudly of Nader. What absolute balderdash.

Subject: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

Ralph Nader's got some nerve.

"In an interview with the Rocky Mountain News, independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader says he's disappointed with Barack Obama:

"There's only one thing different about Barack Obama when it comes to being a Democratic presidential candidate. He's half African-American. Whether that will make any difference, I don't know. I haven't heard him have a strong crackdown on economic exploitation in the ghettos. Payday loans, predatory lending, asbestos, lead. What's keeping him from doing that? Is it because he wants to talk white? He doesn't want to appear like Jesse Jackson? We'll see all that play out in next few months and if he gets elected afterwards."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/25/nader-obama-trying-to-tal_n_109085.html

-snip-

This dailykos diary addresses the points that Nader tried to make about Obama's positions:

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/25/9353/55952/443/541628
Educating Ralph Nader on Obama's "Blackness"
by Muzikal203
Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 06:48:51 AM PDT

But, like the African American writer of that diary, "I take exception to the term "talk white" Black people are dealing with the SAME issues as White people, maybe on different levels, but we are all dealing with them nonetheless." However, I get the sense that Ralph Nader wasn't only commenting about what issues Barack Obama addresses. I think that Nader was also talking about how Obama speaks.

By now, most people know that Senator Barack Obama has an equal amount of White ancestry as he does Black ancestry. Yet, he identifies himself as an African American. So does Nader really think that all African Americans talk one certain way? I believe that Nader is attempting to play into the racism in the USA by labeling Obama as a "Black candidate" who is "tryin to act White". At least that's how I interprete his statements, including the one that Obama is "half-African American". Maybe times really are changing, but in the United States, if not elsewhere, saying that a person is half-African American is like saying that a woman is somewhat pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

And what in the world is "acting White?!". It's been my experience that all White people don't think, act and talk alike. It's also been my experience that all Black people don't think, act, and talk alike. In my not at all humble opinion, it's racist to assume that all members of a racial group are alike.

Several years ago on Mudcat, I was asked on a public thread whether I "talked like I write on Mudcat". I admit to being surprised and offended by that question. But because I believed {and still believe} that the person's intent was well meaning, I responded to that poster-on that public thread-that yes, I do talk like I write. I said that sometimes I write and speak more formally than other times. And sometimes my informal writing and speech includes African American vernacular words and phrases, including slang. I also "explained" that like everybody else, I write and talk in formal and informal modes. My "formal modes" of writing and speaking are the way that they are because that's the way I was educated to write & talk when I'm being formal. I further explained that I write & talk in my "relaxed modes" the way I do because that how I roll when I'm not being formal. And-as this post demonstrates-on Mudcat, I'm usually semi-formal/semi-relaxed.

Far be it for me to dare to speak for Senator Barack Obama, but I think it's safe to say that Obama has formal and informal modes of communication just like everyone else. And it also seems to me that Barack Obama's brushing the dirt off his shoulder in one of his campaign speeches lately shows that he is quite familiar with and isn't afraid of using Black cultural references with audiences that aren't entirely African American [not that African Americans are the only ones who would have "gotten" that brush your dirt off your shoulder gesture and saying]. Far be it for me to speak for Senator Barack Obama, but it seems to me that he is at least as bicultural a person as I am. And it sure seems to me that Barack Obama is comfortable with being bicultural, just like I am.

So, here's a message to Ralph Nader, if you wanna make the news, and get some sliver of respect-if not votes-from potential voters, you gotta raise your game a lot. That weak bs you just ran with won't even get you out your front door.

So who's really frontin [pretending to be] a Presidential candidate? Seems like it's Ralph Nader and not Barack Obama.


Okay. Vent over.