BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)

Subject: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

Oops should have read TILDA!

Spain beat Germany 1-nil in the European Football Championship or whatever the name is.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

Get the Rioja out

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=111941&messages=79#2376879

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: open mike
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

~

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Mike, I know what it is, but I don't do HTML (or whatever it takes) to make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

nice tilde Laurel - I have a very nice Rioja - Salud!

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

Viva España!

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:21 PM

I still can't do a "~" over an "n".

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM

ñ- a & and a # and 241 and a semicolon, run together = n with tilde
There are a couple of lists of the this HTML stuff online

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

hold down alt key while typing 0241, then release alt key.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

Those suggestions didn't work. I have a better idea...just forget the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

ñ is produced by typing the following: Ampersand (&), then "n", the word "tilde" (tilde) and a semi-colon (;), no spaces so it looks like this, but without spaces:

& n tilde   ;


There ya go.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:16 PM

Very handy. And if you leave out the "n" in that, you get a tilde on its own. That sounds useless, since it doesn't occur in nature, so to speak - but sometimes you come across a URL which has a tilde in it.

But while we're on Spanish orthography (or whatever the appropriate term may be), does anyyone know how to do the upside down question marks and exclamation marks they stick at the beginning of sentences as a warning they are going to end with ordinary question marks or exclamation marks?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:24 PM

Espa%ntilde;a.
That looks pretty....much of a waste of time
Espanya!

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:31 PM

¿like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:33 PM

Tried emailing from Argentina once and they kept popping up all over the place! I started putting them in on purpose just to show the recipient that I was NOT using American keybord config. But try to find the @ sign!
What football BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:33 PM

Espa&ntile;a
Still a waste. Let 'em put tildes and accents on the keyboard. Cyrillic, Hebrew and Chinese, too. Maybe Finno-Ugaric, Os with slashes through them, and Linear A&B and Runic. And any others you may want.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

Hold down the ALT key and at the same time type a number on the number pad. Then release the ALT key.

ALT + 168 = ¿
ALT + 164 = ñ
ALT + 173 = ¡
ALT + 135 = ç

should work unless you're on a Mac

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:36 PM

Here's a table that shows two ways to do each special character.

ñ is done with ampersand, number sign and "241".   Same as I showed you except using a different coding system, ISO-Latin-1, as you can see on the linked table.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a dilda)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:03 PM

another table, with ALT codes

I keep a copy saved and usually open on another tab.

And, if you care to learn shortcuts, here's a little program that provides a semi-intuitive way to do most of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:41 PM

Folks, I'd rather spend my time writing things on threads that piss you off, agree with or rebut your arguments, make you smile, offer some bit of knowledge you may not have, or just share something that struck my fancy than learn artificial symbols to make tildes, the color purple or bold face, italics or accents grave. I'll find a way for you to understand me, or you can just shrug and mutter 'huh?' if I fail.

Thank you for these hints and lessons...but stop already!!!!

Love and Hugs, John

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:18 PM

A gold mine!

I've wondered how to do this: thanks guys!

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

España
Manaña
Banaña
Parsimoñous

Yo pienso que yo lo tengo. The rain in Spain and all that.....

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:52 PM

Bill D, I've always used the 'special' HMTL characters, but I will try the ALT + number characters.
ALT156, ALT 56; £

Thanks for the charts, which are better organized than the ones I have been using.
Still wish the charts had the vowels with macron on top for Japanese and Hawai'ian.

ALT0128 ALT 0128; € Let's see if I get them right-

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:53 PM

ALT 156

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 10:05 PM

£ Oh, the light dawns! ╔ ¥ ¡Got it!

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 10:35 PM

Á¤¥

Á ¤ ¦Ê¥Ê»Ê¼ÊÐÊ­ÊЭÊÏÊ ´ö¬¹ ö¿¹ÒÔ

Œ§¶ÄúÆÂÉ


½Åú÷µ²²³Ö123456789

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 10:53 PM

A new capstan chantey, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:59 AM

The ñ é &pound etc. method
(for ñ é and £ for example)
is by far the safest way if you're not sure. If it's physically possible for the browser to find the symbol in any available font it will always do the right thing.

Using Alt + various numbers enters the code using a specific character encoding that may or may not be the encoding used by somebody else's browser viewing it. When you design your own web pages, you can force the particular encoding which makes this more likely to work, but on Mudcat you don't have control over that so it's not reliable.

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM

If you're using Windows, you have the "Character Map" utility that you can use to look up - or copy and insert - most characters.

Start | Programs | Accessories | System Tools | Character Map

Right click it there and Send To|Desktop to put a shortcut on your desktop for easier use.

You have to click on a character, click the select button to put it into the "copy" box, copy all the characters in the box and paste them anyplace where you want to use them. If you copy a bunch all together, you'll have to cut and paste to move them to where you want each individual one.

If you hover over a character, you should get a description that will include the character name and the "code" for it. Early Windows versions may show only ANSI code values (Win98 has virtually NO UNICODE CAPABILITIES) but in later versions you'll see a Unicode identification.

"U+00F1" is the code for the n-tilde. The "00F1" is the Unicode charnum, and you can put it into html as ñ to get ñ.

ñ means:

& = "what comes next is a coded bit"
# = "what follows is a charnum"
x = "this charnum is in hex notation"
00F1 = " the Unicode hexadecimal number for this character is 00F1"
; = "this is the end of the code."

Whether someone reading your post will see what you intend will depend on the reader's Windows version, browser being used, and fonts installed on the reader's computer. As a secondary effect, a recent version of Office may add a lot more - and more complete - fonts to a user's machine, so accurate representation of "foreign" characters may be improved.

Most "modern" browsers can display any coded character if the glyph for it exists in any font on the reader's computer. Occasional misdrawn characters may appear in posts pasted from elsewhere, since not all fonts on all computers use "standard locations" for individual characters in the char maps used, so the "local code" for a char may be different for two different computers.

SAMPLES:

Ŕ through ŧ should show Arabic characters with a bunch of odd strokes, hashes, and other diacriticals:

Ŕ ŕ Ŗ ŗ Ř ř Ś ś Ŝ ŝ Ş ş Š š Ţ ţ

א through ס should be Hebrew characters:

א ב ג ד ה ו ז ח ט י ך כ ל ם מ ן נ ס

ﺵ through ﻀ should show a few Arabic characters.

ﺵ ﺶ ﺷ ﺸ ﺹ ﺺ ﺻ ﺼ ﺽ ﺾ ﺿ ﻀ

Most current browsers should display "real characters" for the above samples. For Win2K and later, with current browsers, if you see lots of unrecognized characters – usually an open rectangle – you may be able to install a full Unicode font and gain ability to recognize at least most of them. If you're limited on drive space OR on RAM, you should be aware that a full font can be very large and just having it on the machine can slow things down. (You can always remove it if it's a problem for your computer.)

Win98 and WinME have very limited "international character" capabilities, and you may or may not be able to get full character display capabilities. I don't have either to play with, so you're on your own.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Trevor
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:56 AM

Yeah, one nil wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

I get the online news from several newspapers. One of them, The Santa Fe New Mexican, uses a "code" that doesn't work with my Windows (XP). Still haven't figured it all out.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM

I don't see anything strange at the Santa Fe New Mexican website, but I didn't try any copy/paste activities, or other things that might show "unusual features." You might see something different in a text/regular feed, or you might benefit from downloading some the "international languages" optionals from "Microsoft Office Updates."

A few strange effects can sometimes be seen if someone used one of the 125 or so Regionalized Keyboards¹, especially if you're viewing in a text mode, perhaps, or with an encoding that doesn't pass double-byte characters. Someone at that newspaper might be using a Spanish keyboard?

¹ The drop down list lets you pick a "language" and a popup window will show you what the keyboard looks like. If you hover on a Shift, Alt, RtAlt, Ctl key you may see different characters on the keycaps, depending on which keyboard you look at.

The popup window is fixed size, so you may have to set to about 75% to see the whole keyboard, and the only way known to print (or copy/paste) a keyboard picture is Alt-PrtScn and paste into an appropriate program.

Note also that a popup doesn't close automatically if you select a new one, so you can end up with a whole bunch of little windows stacked on top of each other if you don't close them as you go. You can drag one window next to another to compare a few selections, but the screen gets really crowded if you open too many at once.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:04 PM

A Tilda

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

"A Tilda". Wasn't that Harry Belafonte's famous sing-along about a gal who went to Veñezuela?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

That was A's mother Ma...

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: open mike
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:03 PM

Atilda the Hun? Atilla's wife?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

It's nice there are various ways to skin a cat do these things, huh?

I just 'like' the alt codes better for most uses.

(and yes, JiK...I see the Hebrew & Arabic characters just fine.) Now...somewhere I have a little program which automatically writes from right to left...hmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

"Big Tilda" is an instrumental by Ralph Stanley. Similar in some ways to "Foggy Mountain Breakdown".

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Kiddies I shrunk the Hun

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM

For an acute accent, or an irish fada, hold down the Alt Gr button while you push the appropriate letter. It'll work with any vowel (except y):- éáúíó

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM

I ain't got no Gr button.

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:47 PM

No good with my Windows, McGrath.
Alt plus a brings up my 'Favorites' list, Alt plus e yields the copy and paste box, alt + i =nothing. What is Gr?

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:48 PM

It's a 'Brit' thing Q
Key to the immediate right of space bar

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:11 AM

What is it supposed to do? Translate into American?
♫ ♫쳌ô Just a second Alt key on mine ☺☺

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:21 AM

It would be nice to be in Spain now. They are probably the best party-ers in the world under normal circumstances, and with this excuse.....

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

Hé's ríght yóú knów

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:33 AM

In Win98 or WinME the original setup for character coding is limited to ANSI values, and 8-bit characters. For the few characters not on your keyboard, as several have noted, you can hold down the Alt key and type the decimal character number on the Num Pad to insert the character. (Num Lock must be on.) It was not anticipated that character numbers past 0256 (= 2⁸) would be needed.

The Alt-NumPad method retrieves character codes from font "pages" loaded according to the "language" selected by the user, and "extended fonts" have been released that allow you to use some higher (decimal) character numbers, but full Unicode character sets aren't easily used. The characters available in fonts that have been released are "spotty" in coverage, and in some cases don't present themselves correctly when viewed in non-Windows systems.

An example of a "misfit" character is the "euro" sign, which Microsoft has added to font tables as decimal character 0128. US users, who won't have a "euro" key on their keyboards, can enter it in almost any Windows program as Alt-0128 = €. (The char value, decimal 0128 or Hex 0080 is unasigned in the Unicode standard.)

(This same "font page" usage is probably responsible for the few remaining "misconversions" when Mac users try to work with Windows users in critical typesetting applications, and is presumed to be the cause of all of the funny glyphs in Amos's cut-n-past posts in the "Random Traces" thread.)

Right-to-left character strings are available to Win98/WinME users only if they have a "regionalized OS" and an appropriate "regionalized keyboard" for a language that uses right-to-left characters. According to the latest Microsoft "bible" on Internationalizing, the right-to-left feature cannot be added to a Win98/WinME version that wasn't so equipped at release.

There are, of course, utilities that will invert a string of characters and print them left-to-right-in-reverse-order-right-justified to give the appearance of right to left char strings. While these give the "correct" appearance for most users, they generally crash when viewed by people equipped for the languages where this display is appropriate (although I've seen only limited comment on this).

Win2K and later (esp including WinXP) at least theoretically have full range Unicode character capability, if appropriate fonts that contain the characters you want are loaded. For some language features you do need to install "international character extensions," but the required additions have been available only as options in Server OS packages which makes them unavailable to most users who don't work for a big company that chooses to make them available.

Recent versions of most browsers, and recent Office programs, can look for any font installed on your computer that contains an isolated coded Unicode character (in the html code in the "&#xHHHH;" format) to display "foreign" characters. The html specification of course supports full range Unicode char values; but individual servers sometimes don't accomodate full range features; and your own computer has to have a font that knows how to display the particular char that's coded.

Microsoft Word versions since Word 2002 allow you to type the hex code number for any Unicode character and with the cursor immediately to the right of the code, Alt-x will convert it to the glyph if the char is in a font you have. Similarly, any "funny character" in a Word document (or that you can copy and paste into Word) can be "read" by placing the cursor immediately to its right, hitting the same Alt-x, and the Unicode hex value for the character will be displayed in place of the glyph.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:13 AM

A little up above there was the comment:

you should be aware that a full font can be very large and just having it on the machine can slow things down

A typical "Western European" font runs about 40 to 80 KB on your computer.

"Times New Roman TrueType" is an "extended font" that includes nearly all of the common characters used in "Latin" and "Cyrillic" languages, including lots of Symbols.

The Microsoft default Unicode font, Arial Unicode MS, containing characters from hex 0021 through FFFD is shown by Windows Explorer on my machine as 22,731 KB - - (22.2 MB)!.

I can remember when my whole Windows OS was a lot smaller than 22 MB (and we thought a 30 MB hard drive was so big you'd never fill it up).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Viva Espanya (I can't do a tilda)
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:19 AM

Isn't Tilde a form of rice?

John on the SC - just keep drinking the Rioja