BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?

Subject: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:29 AM

June 16, 2008, 8:33 am

Meet the Democratic VP Prospect: Wesley Clark

Louise Radnofsky reports on the presidential contest.

Washington Wire offers profiles of those who may be considered as Democratic vice presidential candidates. See our earlier profiles of Joe Biden | Kathleen Sebelius | Jim Webb.

* * *

Wesley Clark

If it's a military name he wants, Barack Obama probably can't do much better than Gen. Wesley Clark.

Clark, 63 years old, has spent more than half his life in the army, including three years as a four-star general as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO forces in Europe, leading the Operation Allied Force in Kosovo.

His resume also includes impressive academic achievements, as a student at West Point and at Oxford and in subsequent teaching roles.

And as a white, southern Catholic — with a Jewish father and Southern Baptist upbringing — he could spearhead the ticket's outreach to valuable constituencies.

He would be a late convert to Obama's cause, after endorsing Hillary Clinton early in the race, but could help bring some of her supporters over to the general-election ticket.

Also, Clark hasn't held office, and is relatively new to the Democratic Party, though through his political action committee, WESpac, he's been active for its candidates across the U.S. in recent years.

Bio Brief:
*        Age: 63
*        Current job: Author, nonprofit board member, senior fellow at UCLA's Burkle Center for International Relations
*        From: Arkansas
*        Education: U.S. Military Academy at West Point, graduated first in his class in 1966; Oxford University Rhodes Scholar 1968; General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kan. 1974-75
*        Experience: 1969-2000 U.S. Army, including service in Vietnam, as a West Point professor, commanding general of the National Training Center, 1st Cavalry Division and U.S. Southern Command; investment banker in Arkansas
*        Political interests: Military, national security, foreign policy
*        Brings: Would-be Democratic voters who aren't convinced by Obama's commander in chief potential
*        Endorsed: Clinton in 2007. Now says he looks forward "to doing everything I can" to help Obama win.
*        Pros: Outstanding credentials as military leader
*        Cons: Has never held elected office

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:37 AM

The operative part of this threads title is the "?" at the end of it...

Wesley Clark would indeed be a good choice but I'm still hoping for either Bill Richardson or Jim Webb... No Sam Nunn, thank you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

Clark also has a reputation for being a "loose cannon," not an unusual characterization for military people attempting to function in a political environment. I was not positively impressed with the campaign he ran in 2004.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

Something about Clark as VP just doesn't seem quite right to me. For some reason, I keep thinking of Richardson.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

Well, if being intelligent is your main criterion for a public office holder, this is your man. Very smart, articulate and a great academic. Also performed well in the military.

Personally, I prefer leaders who have "horse sense" to ones who have book learning. Perhaps that is something I inherited from my western pioneer ancestors.

I will be voting for McNormal and that is a fact. BTW, I looked at a website by a group called Irish In America, and they say he is 3/4 Irish, even tell what counties, including Cork, his ancestors came from. McNormal for McPresident and it doesn't matter who he chooses as VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:51 AM

Ooooooh! Barf!

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

It has been brought to my attention that my "Barf" wasn't clear as to whom it was directed. Let me be clear on that...it refers to Wesley Clark.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

PDQ:

O'Bama is a perfectly good Irish name. Whassa madda you?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,wayne monroe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

"Obama-Biden" just rolls off your tongue!

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

I'd like like Rendell or Strickland.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:06 PM

They've all got Irish ancestors, including Obama. Isn't that an essential qualification for a US President now?

I can't quite see why McCain is any more "normal" than Obama. Unless being a bit whiter counts as more "normal", in the USA, if not in humanity in general.

After all, no normal person would want to be President.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:12 PM

It's not normal to complain about the price of arugula at Whole Foods, that's what he means. Not a racist thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

"Arugula" - that's just "rocket" isn't it? On sale in ordinary supermarkets here, and not regarded as the least bit exotic. But then over here and over there aren't quite the same...

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:28 PM

Whole Foods prices would knock your socks off, though, too. One might complain about the prices paid there but it looks prissy.


Back to square one though - You're right no Presidential contender is normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM

Well, I didn't catch Wesley Clark yesterday on Meet the Press so I first heard of the statement that he made about John McCain on the nightly news this evening... Not sure why it didn't make the W. Post but that's another story...

What Clark said, and I am paraphrasing, "John McCain got shot down over Hanoi in Vietnam and was a POW. Why does this qulify him to be president?"

Well, I've asked the same thing here in Mudville...

Of course, Obama did his best to distance himself but me??? I'm glad that Clark said what he said... He's right... McCain thinks he gets an automatic pass... Sound familiar??? Remember Bush in 2000 not being asked one time by the press about his alcoholism???

Deja vu...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:03 PM

Now that Clark has stepped in shit by saying that McCain's Vietnam combat/POW experience does nothing to qualify him as Commander in Chief, and Obama has distanced himself from that comment, I think the idea of Clark as VP is pretty much dead in the water.

Ironically, I also think Clark is right. I don't think lower echelon military service really adds much to someone's resume as Commander in Chief. Only a high-ranking career officer is going to bring enough military knowledge to the job to have it really mean anything. Someone who just served his hitch and then moved back into civilian life is no more nor less qualified than someone who never served at all. They're both going to depend entirely on military advisors when it comes to making military decisions.

I do appreciate that someone who served in a war may have a better idea of what going to war entails than a chickenhawk like Bush or Cheney, but I don't think it necessarily makes him more qualified. Potentially a bit more cautious, perhaps, but not more qualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:09 PM

"a bit more cautious" would have come in handy in 2003. Our experience under Chickenhawk #1, ably assisted by his fellow chickenhawks, has been instructive.

It is smearing McCain to call him "McWar. He knows what war is--and would not enter into it for any of the flimsy "reasons" trumped up by GWB.   I would love to vote for him--he is a true national hero--but he has put himself on the wrong side of too many issues--starting with the Iraq war, which he ironically would probably not have started. And his supporters--even including some Mudcatters--are a particularly unsavory lot.

I think Webb would be a far better choice than Clark.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:31 PM

Rendell: A Smoke-Filled Back Room You Can Believe In.

Not ezzackly in line with Obama's platform, though he can get things done the "old-fashioned" way. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:42 AM

It would seem opinions differ on the man of whom General Mike Jackson said when refusing to obey one of his orders:

"I'm not going to start the third world war for you,"

http://www.zpub.com/un/clark.html

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Here's some old stuff. I don't see much difference between what Clark said and this, from the 2000 campaign (sorry for the long C&P):

FACT SHEET:

Bush Waged Nasty Smear Campaign Against McCain in 2000
Bush Supporters Called McCain "The Fag Candidate." In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain "the fag candidate." Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed "even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn't hire openly gay people for his administration."

McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife.
Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict."

Bush Campaign Used Code Words to Question McCain's Temper.
"A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word "temper," a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable. The subtext, also suggested in this whispering campaign, is that he returned from 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam with a loose screw. And it is bruited about that he shouldn't be entrusted with nuclear weapons."

Bush Supporters Questioned McCain's Sanity.
"Some of George W. Bush's supporters have questioned Republican presidential candidate John McCain's fitness for the White House, suggesting that his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam drove him insane at the time."

Bush Supporters Spread Racist Rumors About McCain's Daughter.
Bush supporters in South Carolina made race-baiting phone calls saying that McCain had a "black child." The McCains' daughter, Bridget, was adopted from Mother Teresa's orphanage in Bangladesh. In August 2000, columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that the McCains "are still seething about Bush supporters in South Carolina spreading word of their dark-skinned adopted daughter."

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute.
In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker.

After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It.
A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower's involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that "McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam." (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, "nose to nose" according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had "harmed his reputation," Slater later noted. But according to one witness, "What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain."

Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold's Chief Opponent.
Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell's effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, "sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines."

Bush Campaign Accused of Using Push Polls Against McCain.
College of Charleston student Suzette Latsko said she received a telephone call from a woman who identified herself as an employee of Voter/Consumer Research, and that the caller misrepresented McCain's positions and asked if Latsko knew McCain had been reprimanded for interfering with federal regulators in the savings and loan scandal. Voter/Consumer Research is listed as a polling contractor on Bush's Federal Election Commission filings; the Bush campaign has paid Voter/Consumer Research $93,000 through December 31, 1999. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer denied the call was a push poll, but said it was important that the Republican Party remember McCain's role in the S&L crisis.

Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls.
Tucker Eskew, Bush's South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not "push polls." Eskew added, "Show me a baseless comment in those questions."

Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as "Manchurian Candidate."
"In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with 'the Manchurian Candidate.'"

Sampley Called McCain a "Coward" and a Traitor.
"Sampley… accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets."

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:43 AM

Rapaire, that post is an absolute disgrace. Shame on you for repeating it. One of the worst piles of professionally-written anti-Bush crap ever, and there have been thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:40 AM

pdq, I'm glad you saw Rapaire's post before I did. My comment wouldn't have been so nice.

That post is not, however, anti-Bush...it is directly anti-McCain! They accuse McCain of this; they say McCain did that; they acted against McCain in this manner; ergo even the heads of the Republican Party know that McCain is no good--that is the real assassination Rapaire is doing here.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:48 AM

I am pretty sure I posted to the beginning of this thread, as I watched Clark's interview on Face the Nation Sunday morning when he made his statement about McCain. (It was not on Meet the Press)
Why was my message deleted?

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:05 AM

Alice, I've had that feeling a time or two...even for the least controversial things. But I think it actually might have been my fault, being, as I often am, careless with the Submit button. The other answer is that Joe doesn't like you. LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

Vietnam was a long time ago, and I'm sure McCain is no expert on the strategy and mathematics of modern warfare. His experience in that would come from whatever involvement he had in relevant Senate responsibilities.

Being shot down and imprisoned during an air strike would give a person far greater understanding of warfare than conducting a successful aristrike.

If the story is true (and I have no reason to think it's not), that, after being tortured, he refused a preferential release on the basis of his father's Admiral (of some kind) status, to be torured further, then that is an extraordinary qualification for Commander In Chief. Requesting a young person to go to war has to be much better for morale, coming from a man who has done that, than a similar request from Cheney/Bush, Bill Clinton, or Barack Obama.

Belittling that experience is base, and snide, coming from a TV star General.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

ALice:

I've had a number of instances where I hit the submit button, correctly, and didf not verify the post wasa dded to a thread, only to find later that it never made it. This is not a case of deletion, but of a glitch in the posting software routine.

PDQ--while I agree the antics of "Karl Bush" when he was trying to stop McCain were shameful, I think it is interesting to have his mechanisms in that field exposed, because he uses them in every fight--needfully or not--he ever gets into. He is, by nature, an underhanded guttersnipe.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

Heck, McCain had to be corrected, not once, but twice by his buddy, Joe Lieberman on afalse statement that alQeada was being trained in Iran...

War hero??? Maybe... Presidential material??? Not...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

Well, what I did try to post, is that Clark seems to sometimes say things that are easily misunderstood. He did so in his presidential campaign, too. When I heard his statement Sunday, I thought, uh oh, that will come back to bite him. He was trying to say that his own record had more diplomatic experience than McCain's, but it sure did not come out that way. It sounded like an attack on McCain just trying to be a politician based on his pilot and pow record. Anyone following politics knows that McCain has had so much experience in Congress that his record includes far more than what happened in Viet Nam.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

And what has that to do with your previous post, Bobert? Have the good grace to keep within your original argument...actually regurgitation of other people's comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

Oddly enough, nobody seems to notice that CLark's comment were in direct reponse to an interviewer asking him if Obama had ever flown a fighter plane and been shot down over enemy territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Perhaps what Bobert was trying to say in his 11:36 post was that one of the principal qualifications for being Commander in Chief is to have one's facts straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

As you seem to know Bobert's posts,what was the point of the post before that, Bee-dubya-ell?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

Oh. I haven't seen or read the precise exchange and probably shouldn't have stepped in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:21 PM

(That in response to Dick Greenhaus)

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

No. It is not anti-Bush or anti-McCain. It simply shows to what depths members of a candidates entourage will sink to.

I picked this one because it was Republican insulting Republicans. And I found the lies told about McCain in 2000 to be as nauseating as the lies told about Kerry in 2004.

Why veterans, such as Wesley Clark, go out of their way to insult other veterans such as John McCain, is beyond me. Both demonstrated that they were willing to die for their country if need be, both endured the hell of combat.

And the whole thing was orchestrated by a man who was last rated as 1-H ("Not For Induction At This Time") by the Selective Service -- Karl Rove.

I think it despicable when anyone will questions another's patriotism, whether or not that person is a former POW or someone who has never served in the military (as I have). I don't care if the lies are expressed as "opinions" (keep them to yourself or discuss them in private) or as "fact."

I'm sick of lists of lies like those told in 2000 about McCain, and that's the sole point I want to get across.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

He is a good man for the long list.

The short list might not include the General, however to gain the support of all the generals and admirals that have been scewered by the Bush Rumsfeld war machine a man like clark might be the ticket to reorganize the Pentagon in such a way as to bring this country to a more sane defense policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Skivee
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:42 PM

General Clack's comment was strange.
The idea that he should belittle actions of a man who volunteered for duty, flew dangerous missions and got shot down and was tortured in the service of his country is just odd.
I won't be voting for McCain, but he didn't deserve that cheap shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:58 PM

In any event, it sounds like Obama has thrown Weasley under the bus along with Reverend Wright and his white grandmother.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:36 PM

Heric (and others)-
while I don't like posting the same thing twice (to two different threads), this seems appropriate:

re. Clark-
Here's the whole thing
BOB SCHIEFFER: How can you say that John McCain is untested and untried, General?

CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents and it's a matter of being held accountable.

John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces, as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world.

But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded—that wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle this publicly? He hasn't made that calls, Bob.

SCHIEFFER: Well, General, maybe—could I just interrupt you?

CLARK: Sure.

SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences, either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean...

CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.


Swiftboating? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:37 PM

Actually it seems Gen. Clark dove under the "bus" himself--as in fact did Rev. Wright.   With no assistance from anybody.

And the bus metaphor is more than a bit tired. Realizing of course that some people have a problem coming up with any creative language.    Unless of course it's time to attack religion or Mexicans. Or revel in the latest smear.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:04 PM

Thanks Dick I did get a chance to read it today, and I was pondering whetrher and what to say about it. I am embarrassed and annoyed to have been victimized by the media manufacturing false intrigue to make us jump and scream like little monkeys in a tree. (Can I say that?)

The media polls say today that Obama and McCain are tied. This is important and we are subjected to never-ending nonsense, and you can't believe even the simplest reporting.

I am inclined to believe that Obama should not have distanced Clark over this, but now I have to go find out what he REALLY said, about such a stupid little cavil.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:29 PM

As an irrelevant aside I don't know where to put, I also happened to scare myself on youtube today, watching the P-270 Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) cruise missile Iran owns. Mach 3.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

Thanks, Dick. I don't see anything wrong with what Clark said, in context.

IMO, it would be wonderful if everyone took a day of from the news media, in protest. They are NOT reporting the news, all they are doing is offering the latest fluff crap about who said/they said which has no substance in relation to our country and where it is heading. Most of what they air is op/ed crap and premature.

The Dems haven't even convened to name Obama the candidate AND have not voted on the party platform. Likewise the GOP. Wouldn't it be something if a huge movement of folks refused to accept either of them AND moved for reform? Just told the media to stuff it, quit assuming and get back to reporting!? THEN choose the candidates at the actual conventions!

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:38 AM

Presidents and Military Service (a brief survey)

From George Washington through Theodore Roosevelt only four Presidents did not have any form of military service. None of those four are rated highly for their time in office.

The seven Presidents between TR and Harry Truman had no military service. Five of those are ranked low. Then, until Bill Clinton all of the Presidents had military service, and GW Bush served in the National Guard, but had no active service save summer camps. Except for four presidents, Lincoln being one, all who had military service attained the rank of major (and its Naval equivalent) or higher.

Not counting Clinton, the second Bush, and WH Harrison who died 1 mo. into office, and ill with pneumonia the whole time, here's the success breakdown (roughly the top 25%):

No Service—12; considered good or successful—3; 25% success rate.
Service—28; considered good or successful—10; 36% success rate.

So, more than twice as many Presidents have had military service as haven't, and those Presidents were slightly more likely to be successful, by historic perspective. I would not be so bold as to say that his military service will make John McCain a better President than Barack Obama, but it can be used as a predictor of their relative chance for success, all other things being equal--and they never are.

FDR who had no military service, is generally considered the greatest President (my choice would be Washington or Lincoln), and Andrew Johnson who did, is considered near the bottom. Make of that what you will.

I used charts from Wikipedia and other sources to get the rankings, with a little bit of my own judgment thrown in. If anyone cares to discuss that aspect, PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

Unfortunately--or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it--rankings of past presidents change as time goes forward. It also depends on who is doing the ranking.

                   For instance, when Reagan first mustered out, he was ranked near the bottom. In recent years, his fortunes have improved. As time goes by, I think he will sink again, especially as the holes in his economic theories become more exposed. So it's all kind of a "snap shot in time" exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

It wasn't so much a cheap shot but rather abject candor.
...something which is a punishable offense by those who desire to enhance legends and not the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

I remember while watching the interview of Clark, that Schieffer was setting him up, and Clark stepped right into it in his response. If he had not shot right back with the wording as he did, his point would have been better understood. You can see a more seasoned politician usually take a pause and weigh their words before responding and make a response a more positive point for their own cause, rather than a negative. If Clark had responded with restating his respect for McCain's service and then said that we have had great presidents who did not have active military service, he would have deflected what Shieffer was trying to do. I remember the expression on Shieffer's face, like "bingo, I got him" when Clark responded as he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:00 AM

Rigenslinger is absolutely correct; polls do change with time and source. But at the extremes the top 5 or 6, and the bottom 5 or 6 are pretty consistent. That is why I took a sort of consensus from polls over time. I did not do regressions, confidence limits and standard deviations to make my conclusions, I just sort of eyeballed the rankings down the line. Also all the participants in the polls chosen were were historians...I eschewed the use of popularity polls, and polls that seemed to be overtly partisan from either party.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

Here is the you tube video of the interview so you can see and hear it yourself. You can see that Clark was saying Obama has good judgment, has the ability to communicate, has the power to persuade, has the ability to pull people together, and then got shot off course because Clark had previously said McCain was "untested and untried".
It was that phrase of "untested and untried" that Clark had said about McCain that got Shieffer defending McCain. As the interviewer, I thought Shieffer overstepped by not remaining more objective.
Look at his facial expression and tone in response to Clark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kag0bBJVkIw

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

I miss Tim Russert.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:05 PM

It is absolutely appalling how much of the reporting of this campaign is being conducted by microscopic analysis of sound-bytes and pundits trolling for controversial quips to provide fodder for MORE irrelevant phrasing, rather than examining policy and competence.

Wesley Clark did NOT impugn McCain OR McCain's basic competence, he merely put the **QUESTION** into perspective! But in doing so, he provided a great quote/sound-byte for those who don't care to consider context>.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:28 PM

"...the reporting of this campaign is being conducted by microscopic analysis of sound-bytes..."

BillD--where you have been? This has been going on for at least the two or three election cycles. And it is going to get worse yet. If a quote interests me these day, I try to find the original context online. I listen to two--among others--talk shows wherein the host plays plays much of or the whole context of the speech or writing, but alas they don't play the whole thing at once; they interrupt frequently with their interpretation and comment before continuing on. I hate that, but I guess it makes for good radio, and I will have (eventually) the clip in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:43 PM

I heard what Clark said on MSNBC. He in no way impugned McSame's war record.
This is utter bullshit by the pundits on MSNBC.

The only thing he said was that McCain's imprisonment in the Hanoi Hilton is
not a qualification for president and Clark was right.

Clark went out of his way to refer to McCain as one of his "heros".

It just shows you how twisted the Corporate News is.

Personally, I don't give a damn about McCain's war record. He was in Vietnam
and the US shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

Amos needs to start up an Impeach Clark thread.

EXCLUSIVE: DEMOCRACY NOW! Confronts Wesley Clark Over His Bombing Of Civilians, Use Of Cluster Bombs And Depleted Uranium And The Bombing Of Serb Television

In a Democracy Now! exclusive, General Wesley Clark responds for the first time to in-depth questions about his targeting of civilian infrastructure in Yugoslavia, his bombing of Radio Television Serbia, the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium, the speeding-up of the cockpit video of a bombing of a passenger train to make it appear as though it was an accident and other decisions he made and orders he gave as NATO's Supreme Allied Commander.

In January, Clark told CNN, "He [Hussein] does have weapons of mass destruction." When asked, "And you could say that categorically?" Clark responded: "Absolutely."

In February, Clark told CNN, "The credibility of the United States is on the line, and Saddam Hussein has these weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this and the rest of the world's got to get with us…The U.N. has got to come in and belly up to the bar on this. But the president of the United States has put his credibility on the line, too. And so this is the time that these nations around the world, and the United Nations, are going to have to look at this evidence and decide who they line up with."

Immediately following the fall of Baghdad to US forces, Clark responded to a question about finding the alleged weapons of mass destruction, saying: "I think they will be found. There's so much intelligence on this."

But as Clark speaks out about the war in Iraq, his own record in a different war is almost never examined. That is his role as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the 78 day bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. Sure, the Clark campaign promotes this in its TV ads–but they say that he liberated a nation and ended a genocide. Clark mentions it often in his stump speeches and the debates. But as a qualification to be commander-in-chief.

What is not discussed is what Clark actually did when he was running a war....

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

In that indictment, GUESTsawsall, perhaps you could include Madeleine Korbel Albright (born Marie Jana Korbelová). She was Clinton's pseudo-Secretary Of State and was responsible for giving Weasley Clark those orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Clark is not the only military general to bomb countries and advocate military solutions.

I think that Clark would have the military expertise if that was required that McCain doesn't have. McCain has never offered much in the way of foreign policy if anything.

As to the "weapons of mass destruction" all of the military people believed that garbage.
It was such an easy solution.

Anyone that claims the idea that a military leader does not ultimately have "soft targets" bombing innocent women, children is living in a bubble.

I agree with Smedley Butler. "War is a racket".

You can count the people who didn't follow the lie of WMD's on one hand.

Barbara Lee was the only congressperson that voted against the Iraq Occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:23 PM

"Clark is not the only military general to bomb countries and advocate military solutions." Well, that's what military generals do. When the only tool you know of is a hammer...

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:25 PM

Well, Stringsinger, I believe war is a racket too, and President Eisenhower made that same point very emphatically. But I believe John McCain when he says, "I hate war."

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:54 PM

People who do not understand war make stupid mistakes when engaging in it. Both Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter used our military against our allies!

John McCain is unlikely to be a great president, but he is unlikely to be a bad one. McNormal for McPresident. Then let's start talking about issues and solutions and stop clubbing others with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:19 PM

The problem with what Clark said is not whether it's true or not--obviously it is true that McCain has not commanded a large force, on the scale of say, Clark's commands.

The problem is that an election campaign is a political animal, to say the least. McCain's military service is obviously his strongest point. So you don't want to give him any more excuses than necessary to point out his selfless service to country.

Clark has played right into McCain's hands--and taken the focus off issues which would benefit Obama.

That qualifies Clark as a loose cannon to Obama--not what you want in a VP. No "bus" involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

Sidetracking a lot - I was about to ask if anyone know the specifics of McCain's refusal to leave the POW camp. I was having a hard time understanding how it is, when your captors say you are leaving, you get the right to say, no, I'm staying right here.

But I looked it up. Below is a an excerpt from a lengthier article that is very harrowing. It will be on my mind tomorrow.

article

Excerpt:

An offer to go home
In June 1968, McCain was taken to an interrogation room, where "The Cat" awaited him. He was joined by another man, "The Rabbit," who spoke very good English.

The Cat spent two hours in seemingly aimless conversation, telling McCain about how he had run French prison camps in the early 1950s. He said that he had released some prisoners early and that they had thanked him later. He also mentioned that Norris Overly had gone home "with honor."

All of a sudden, The Cat blurted out: "Do you want to go home?"

McCain told him he'd have to think about it. He'd been hit by a bout of dysentery and was in poor shape. He was losing weight.

But McCain knew the real reason the North Vietnamese wanted to release him. Adm. Jack McCain, his father, was an important U.S. military figure. In July he would assume command of all U.S. forces in the Pacific. McCain's release would help the North Vietnamese propaganda machine.

McCain realized that the Code of Conduct gave him no choice. Alvarez, who was being held elsewhere, was supposed to be the first man released.

"I just knew it wasn't the right thing to do," he said. "I knew that they wouldn't have offered it to me if I hadn't been the son of an admiral.

"I just didn't think it was the honorable thing to do."

Three days later, McCain met with The Cat again. The North Vietnamese turned the screws. The Cat told McCain that President Johnson had ordered McCain home. McCain asked to see the orders. The Cat didn't have any.

Then the North Vietnamese commander produced a letter from McCain's wife, Carol, saying, "I wished that you had been one of those three who got to come home."

McCain calmly told The Cat that the prisoners must be released in the order they were captured, starting with Alvarez.

On the Fourth of July, McCain had a final sit-down with The Cat and The Rabbit.

"Our senior officer wants to know your final answer," The Rabbit said.

"My final answer is the same," McCain said. "It's no."

"That is your final answer?"

"That is my final answer."

The Cat, who had been seated behind a pile of papers, grabbed a pen and snapped it in half. Ink spurted all over the desk. He rose and kicked the chair over behind him.

"They taught you too well," he said, then left, slamming the door.

Before long, McCain would find himself tied to a stool, and the guards would literally beat him into confessing that he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate."

McCain's account was corroborated by a cable from Averell Harriman, who was President Johnson's envoy to the Paris peace talks. Harriman had tea with a Vietnamese official, who mentioned that McCain had refused early release.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

I knew the basics of this story and I realize it is very old. But it is now my opinion we have two good men running for President this year. I regret my earlier conclusion that we had to vote for "New Coke" versus "milk that had passed its expiration date."

I also understand that they are both politicians saying what they have to say.

From this point forward I will be immune to mudslinging and media manipulation. I learn slowly but I learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

GUEST,heric - thanks for the last two posts.

What John McCain told the Vietcong guards was yes, he would like to go home, but he had to wait until all the other US military prisoners were gone and safe. He told them it was his duty, as the highest ranking officer in the camp, and he instructed them to release the lowest ranking enlisted man first, that being Alvarez. They did not like his "by the book" response but respected him for giving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

As quite a few people, including me, have said: McCain is an authentic national hero. No rational person--which admittedly might leave a few people on the Left out--can doubt it.

But it's a real shame that he is on the wrong side of so many issues--starting with a war he probably would not have started.   And that so many of his supporters are so seamy.

For those reasons, many of us, including me, cannot support him.   And I am a registered Republican.

Obama's promise of a post-racial, post-partisan society is what the US needs.   McCain has all sorts of excuses for not dealing with important issues--like putting off a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants until the border is "secured"---i.e. sometime in the next millennium. Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:43 PM

"Obama's promise of a post-racial, post-partisan society is what the US needs."


                And he might be right about that, but he's certainly abandoned any and all efforts to bring it about.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:06 PM

More fact-free and evidence-free bile-----from the usual source. What a surprise.

And wonderfully free from any intellectual appeal.

Just ran across a quote apropos of said poster: " The dull and the bigoted are rarely witty."

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:20 AM

"And wonderfully free from any intellectual appeal..."


                     It's not, actually, Ron. It merely seems like you just don't get it; dull and bigoted, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:59 AM

All one need do is read the postings.   No question who is bigoted against most blacks and seemingly all Mexicans--as well as demonstrating that bigotry is easily as possible for somebody who is dead set against all religion as it is for Jerry Falwell and his ilk.

Not an Obama supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

A little editing might add some clarity to the above posting. But in the end, I think it's the "religion" thing that really rankles with you, Ron, and I think I know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

Actually it's the 100% certified fact- and evidence- free nature of the posts--but what can you expect from the CEO of Smears R Us?

Still waiting for any facts or evidence backing up the allegation that Obama has abandoned any striving for a post-racial and post-partisan approach.

Just one bit of evidence in favor of Obama is the fact that he has stated point blank that he feels his own children should not benefit from affirmative action programs. He feels that ethnic origin should only be one determinant of a preferential program--and not necessarily the dominant one.

A very reasonable stance--and a breath of fresh air.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:59 PM

I think he needs someone who will not embarass him, speak for him out of turn. No loose cannons..which I think would include Webb, Clark and Biden. Richardson is OK. I think the two left standing are Edwards and Sebelius..but she has some pretty strong stands on abortion etc. Edwards would be the safest but I do like Sebelius and would like a woman and Edwards for AG. She reminds me of a university basketball coach..or maybe a Centrum Silver commercial. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:58 PM

Why do you think Webb is a loose cannon? Because of what he said or wrote 30 years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: mg
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:31 AM

Because he looks like someone ready to blow at any moment. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:18 AM

Why would you condemn somebody based on appearance?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

"Why would you condemn somebody based on appearance?"

RonDavies, that is most effective argument some folks here at the 'Cat can muster. I refer you to the screeds about Ann Coulter some months back; among others it is the most blatent.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

Yeah, but I mean, Ann Coulter looks like the Grim Reaper!

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

Actually, Jim Webb isn't a loose cannon... He is blunt at times but he has shown with to ba an effective freshman Senator... That says alot... Much of the recent military appropriations bill had Webb's dinger prints all over it... Loose cannons cannot pull that off... Yes, he is highly principled... So what??? That ain't a bad thing...

My 1st choice is still Bill Richardson but Jim Webb ain't far behind... And, fir the record, Joe Biden ain't a loose cannon either...

Bill Clinton??? Now there is a loose cannon... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

"Loose Cannon"? "Clark has played right into McCain's hands-"?
The exchange went:

SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences, either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean...

CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

How would you have responded?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

Don't let the interview get to that point. In fact, when it comes to McCain, just praise his military service--and quickly change the subject---to the economy for instance.

It does no opponent of McCain any good whatsoever to let anybody bring up McCain's military service.    If it happens, get off that topic ASAP.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:03 PM

If Clark did any more praising of McCain's military service, he'd have to make an appointment to have him sanctified. Didn't do no good, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:14 PM

Failing to vote for someone based on appearance is not the same as condemning them. And intuitive factors are huge in peoples' minds, and should be respected as important. If you think, as I think, that someone looks ready to explode, as I do about Webb, that is a huge factor. We don't want exploding VPs. We don't want one who takes time away from the campaign or the conducting of the nation's business with the president have to mop up behind him or her. You want someone who will work well with the president. Edwards seems to be best on that score, and from what I have seen of Sebelius, she seems to too. You want someone who looks like part of a matched set..some sort of physical compatability. Obama is well-pressed and preppy looking. Someone sort of rumpled wouldn't be a matched set..someone very strident wouldn't be a matched set. Two alpha males would probably not be a good idea. One has to be somewhat subservient, and hopefully it would be the VP. An alpha male and the equivalent type of female no good...

If Hillary were the nominee, I would say probably Richardson. I can't see him as VP for Obama but it would be fine with me if he is chosen.

I want the irrigation guy in the cabinet somewhere...one of the most important considerations in US and worldwide is water..irrigation, allocation, wise use etc...we need experts. I want fewer lawyers and more irrigation experts. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:23 PM

"I want the irrigation guy in the cabinet somewhere..."

Serious question: to whom do refer with that statement.?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:24 PM

I could live with Sebelius... Not Edwards... He couldn't deliver his home state in '04 plus he would compete with Obama... You don't want the 2nd fiddle steppin' on the main man's toes... That is the problem with Hillary, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:44 AM

Schweitzer of Montana. his name comes up pretty often. He is not preppy though. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:19 AM

"looks ready to explode" --that's still judging--and condemning--based on appearance.

We're trying to get beyond that.




And the problem with Clark's response is that he criticized McCain--at all--in the context of a military issue. It makes absolutely no difference that Clark was dead right--being shot down, captured, and tortured does not qualify you to command the US armed forces. The point is:   any question having to do with personal military service of the candidates is a loser for Obama.

So you want to leave that topic ASAP. Don't give the interviewer any excuses to ask another question about it.

If the question has to do with the military, say immediately that you honor and respect all service in the military--that's why the lives of people in the military should not be squandered and they should be honored when they return--and talk about how you or your candidate will improve the GI Bill, improve VA care, and make sure that any war is in fact justified, in contrast to the trumped-up travesty that was Bush's argument for the Iraq war.

Then point out how the money wasted in Iraq would be much better used for the urgent needs of all people in the US.

And segue into a general discussion of the US economy--over and over--til the interviewer gives up trying to draw you out about McCain's personal service.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

"And segue into a general discussion of the US economy--over and over--til the interviewer gives up trying to draw you out about McCain's personal service."


                     Is that from the Daily.Kos play book? And isn't that what Obama has been doing? And as he continues to do things like that, isn't that why he loses support after people see him more than a few times.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM

Seems to me that McCain's military record was introduced into the campaign by somebody named McCain.

And Rig-
Maybe some people do get bored with issues, but that's no reason not to have them openly discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

Well if you are going to vote for someone you have to judge them. Why would we want to get beyond that, when there is possible behavior of concern in the future. You shouldn't judge people because they ahve a cleft palate, but if there is something behavioral, not bad, just not what a vp should have...then you should make a judgement. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:05 PM

So far nothing behavioral has been pointed out about Webb--unless you want to nail him to the wall for writings from 30 years ago.   Perhaps you do.

"looking like he is going to explode" is-- yet again-- appearance related, not behavior-related.


And regarding McCain:   the point is:   don't discuss his military service at all. If the interviewer wants to, drag him off the topic--over and over---a well-known political skill.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:09 PM

And as for Obama losing support recently---proof please--even if it means resigning as CEO of Smears R Us.

Unless the poster, as usual, does not plan to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:28 PM

NEWKERALA.COM News Section:



Home > News > world-news



Black pastors wary of Obama

Washington, July 4 : Democratic Party presidential nominee Barack Obama is apparently losing the support of black pastors, most of whom are of the view that black Christians are voting for him on emotional grounds, rather than on his stand on issues affecting American life in the short and long term.



                      From SF Gate:

Last week, Obama expressly came out against using "mental distress" as a justification for late-term abortions, a position widely seen as the latest in a string of moves toward the political center but one aimed specifically at Christian conservatives.
Such statements may run the risk of alienating Obama's liberal activist supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

Thanks for the source. Too bad "Home News--World News" is not the sort of source that would carry any kind of clout with a thinking person--though it's a step up from Rush. Congratulations.

And as for the other citation--did you notice the word "may"? Are you aware that's one of the best weasel-words in existence--and tends to discount heavily what comes after?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:57 PM

Unless you want to tell us exactly who publishes NEWKERA.COM.   I would think you would know by now how reliable the a citation from the Net is--not very--unless backed by a group known to be reliable.


And if you don't know this, it's time to learn it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:03 PM

"how reliable a citation..."

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:07 AM

Ron - If you go through life relying on the Wall Street Journal for all of your information, there's probably a number of things you're going to miss out on.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

Bobert: What would be the point in questioning an alcoholic about his alcoholism? Everyone knows he had a problem with alcohol at one point in his life. He doesn't drink it now.

Your comment about McCain: does his being shot down over Vietnam and becoming a prisoner of war for five years DISQUALIFY him to be Commander in Chief in your view?

What's Obama's qualification to be Commander in Chief? The fact that he has NOT served in the military?

Ron Davies: "Unsavory?" Who? Why? Because McCain supporters do not subscribe to your point of view? Please clarify.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Aw, c'mon. Clark outranks him. And has more leadership experience in the service. Just possibly, might he know whatof he speaks?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: mg
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM

Well, I saw Sebelius on TV last night. I still think she would be a good VP..hard working, middle of the road on most things I think..she did veto a clean coal bill in her state..you know how they say some people can read the phone book and make it thrilling..well, she could read Shakespeare and make it sound like the phone book. But I am fascinated by people who always manage to look tidy..not a look I have ever been able to pull off.

And she would get all ..most..of the Gilligan's Island voters as her maiden name was Gilligan..Kate Gilligan..nice ring to it.

But there are two aspects: campaigning and governing once elected. I think she would do fine with the latter and so so with the former and she would be soundly resisted because of late-term abortion votes or beliefs or whatever..but I think she would be a excellent functioning VP and one who would work well, probably almost flawlessly, with Obama. Except for views on abortion, particularly late-term, I think she would pull in the Catholic vote, which they say overlaps (NO NO NO I AM NOT EVER GOING TO PROVIDE SOURCES. THEY ARE SECRET) the older women vote, as men die earlier etc. and older Catholic women are over-represented in the Catholic demographics.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

"Kate Gilligan..nice ring to it."


               Yeah, she ought to go back to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: heric
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:57 PM

it'd be a fantastic name for a President

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:22 PM

Well, Dougie... if you asked most folks if they knew that Bush was an alcoholic they wouldn't have a clue... They aslo wouldn't have a clue about his womanizing or his use of cocain... Hey, if I'm trying to decide who I want as president I don't think it's too much to ask to, at the very least, know about these things... Hey, I might vote for the guy anyway, but this kinda stuff should be out there for folks to at least know...

What about the night that Bush had the "pretzel incident" (wink, wink)... What if that little relapse had occured on 9/11 and here you have the Commander in Chief so drunk he can't stand up??? I mean, lets get real, Dougie... The fact that Bush was an alcoholic never made it thru the press in 2000... The DUI barely made it... Bush was given a pass...

As for McCain, no... Being shot down and being a POW doesn't disqualify McCain in any way from running for president... But, on the other hand, it hardly qualifies him... It is a non-issue... If he wants to run ads witgh pictures of him as a POW then he invites these kinds of rebuttals... There were hundreds of Navy pilots shot down in Vietnam... Are they also qyualifies to be president for being shot down??? I don't think so...

What we are seeing here is an attempt to build McCain up into a croos between Rambo and John Wayne... Fine... Good politics... But like with any campaign, if you put it out there you had better be prepared to have it shot at...


I mean, lets get real... Every thing in Obama's life is fair game to McCain and his 527's so, like thet say, what's gopod for the goose is also good for the gander...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:52 PM

Rig:

Your reference appears to be a Sri Lankan daily.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

"Bush was an alcoholic they wouldn't have a clue... They aslo wouldn't have a clue about his womanizing..."


                   Frankly, it doesn't seem to me like George W. Bush would make a very successful womanizer.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:56 PM

See, Rigs... You seem to be oblivious to his past and yer a resonably informed person so that's what I mean... Bush got a complete pass form the press on his past or you would know about it...

I rest my case...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:13 PM

Well, the Repubs seem to have a thing about nominating academic...dare I say failures?...well, dam' close. McCain wound up sixth from the bottom of his class at the Academy; Shrub graduated Yale with a gentleman's C.
Did Quayle graduate frome anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:19 PM

He also cheated on his ex-wife... Family values, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:50 PM

Bobert: Listen carefully because there obviously is something about the election this November that you are not aware of. Ready? Here goes: George W. Bush is not running.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:01 PM

Doug:   If the shoe fits....

Re the poster who commented on going through life relying on the WSJ:   All I ask is that sources be given.   And I--and others, of course---can judge the reliability of a cited source. However, if the poster refuses to give specifics on the source, the suspicion may well arise that the poster is honoring us with more drivel--from his cornucopia of same.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:18 PM

Mostly what one needs to know about the Wall Street Journal is that Rupert Murdoch owns it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:11 AM

Webster's Dictionary:"unsavory. 1. Not savory; tasteless;insipid. 2. Distastful or disagreeable. 3. Morally offensive."

Nope. Shoe doesn't fit me!

However, I do believe it might fit a certain Mudcat poster who does not appear to have the manners to reply to a reasonable post in a savory manner.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:18 AM

This is interesting.

BTW Clark is toast.

The Grunt vs. the Flyboy

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:01 PM

1) Unsavory:   most of the Swift Boat Squad for Character Assassination now support McCain.   That's enough for me. Mudcatters:   well, there seems to be one McCain supporter who told Kendall he had melted a copy of one of his records-- told him this--even though it's likely a lie-- because said Mudcatter disagreed politically with Kendall.   That also qualifies. Then as I said, McCain has arranged to be on the wrong side of most issues. That doesn't help--putting him on the side of various delightful people who want Roe v Wade defeated, want oil drilling in ANWR, etc. I find it easy to vote against McCain this time--especially with Obama as the opponent. It might well not have been so easy in 2000.

2) Murdoch: Actually the poster who commented on him --again--shows no signs of knowing anything about the WSJ---unsurprisingly. In fact said poster bears a strong resemblance to a broken record on this topic. As I've explained more than once, there is a huge difference between the editorials--which have always been Neanderthal, long before Murdoch--and the reporting. I'd like anybody to tell me where to find better reporting. So far no takers.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

"That doesn't help--putting him on the side of various delightful people who want Roe v Wade defeated..."


                  Of course, that doesn't seem as important as it once did!

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 11:35 PM

Now this is interesting. Both the poster concerned about "unsavory" and the poster concerned about Murdoch have plenty of time for their oh-so-important personal itches. But neither, it seems, has any time--even for a few words-- for Mick, who's going through some real problems, as opposed to the petty smearing and sniping that goes on here below the line. I guess that tells us all we need to know about these two posters. It sure tells me all I need to know about them--and I do not intend to waste any more time dealing on this thread with what can only be called trivial individuals.

So, congratulations--you get the last word.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:16 AM

And now, judging by his latest campaign commercial, McCain is running on his military record. Which, apparently, is too sacrosanct to be considered by anybody else. Neat trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Wesley Clark: Your new VP candidate?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:41 PM

Mr. Davies:If you wish to check with my good friend, Big Mick, you will learn that my message to him was in a personal one sent the moment I realized that a tragedy had occurred in his family. I saw no need to do so as a regular post to a thread.

As self-righteous as as your last post may sound, you still did not address the insult you directed at Mccain supporters. Cat got your tongue? :>)

DougR