BS: Be Careful Contacting Me

Subject: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:35 PM

I am in Canada. The new statute just passed by both houses of the United States Congress and about to be signed by the President, and I quote:

"permits the NSA to intercept phone calls and e-mails between the U.S. and a foreign location, without making any showing to a court and without judicial oversight, whether or not the communication has anything to do with al Qaeda -- indeed, even if there is no evidence that the communication has anything to do with terrorism, or any threat to national security."   (As quoted by Glenn Greenwald today at www.salon.com, reporting on the ACLU and various other Law Professors).

So be warned. Especially about subversive music talk.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

Ok...I'll leave a note under a rock in International Falls...by the laundromat.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Since when did legalities worry the U.S government, or any of the 'security agencies'. ....I deny I just said that, I was forced to....I...

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

The new statute just passed by both Democratically controlled houses of the United States Congress...

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Peter, if the statute said that, it wouldn't have been passed. This from FindLaw.com:

The new surveillance bill sets new rules for government eavesdropping. Some of them would tighten the reins on current government surveillance activities, and others loosen them compared with a law passed 30 years ago.

For example, it would require the government to get FISA court approval before it eavesdrops on an American overseas. Currently, the attorney general approves that electronic surveillance on his own.

But the bill also would allow the government to obtain broad, yearlong intercept orders from the FISA court that target foreign groups and people, raising the prospect that communications with innocent Americans would be swept up. The court would approve how the government chooses the targets, and how the intercepted American communications are to be protected.

The original FISA law required the government to get wiretapping warrants for each individual targeted from inside the United States. The number of needed warrants ballooned as technology changed and purely foreign communications increasingly passed through U.S. wires.

The bill would give the government a week to conduct a wiretap in an emergency before it must apply for a court order. The original law only allowed three days.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

BTW, BB, both the Dems and Reps have 49 votes in the Senate. There are two Independents.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

Peter, shall I send you a guitar with "This machine kills fascists" on it?

I think artbrooks has it right, though. I am NOT happy about it being passed, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM

re Senate-

So, the Rep. can have half the chairmanships back?


The Dems have all the chairmanships, and are in control of both House and Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

BB-
As a class, the Democrats (especially those now in office) don't give much more of a damn for the Constitution than do the Republicans. Turn ALL the rascals out!

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

Turn ALL the rascals out!

Didn't they pass a law a few years back about not being able to speak out against incumbents? Something like that I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

Turn ALL the rascals out!

THAT I can agree with.


Anyone in office should be replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:33 PM

"The new statute just passed by both Democratically controlled houses of the United States Congress..."

ain't the least interested in WHO passed it, the very fact that it was passed is bad enough. Wonder if it would be as bad if the Republicans had been the one's responsibly? Silly question really, I think I already know the answer..

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Toss all the rascals out. Put brand new rascals in.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM

Do away with those 2 political parties. That would be a good start. Then select new members of Congress by lot from a large pool of nonpartisan individuals who meet the basic requirements needed to do the job, and make sure that only 5% of them are lawyers. ;-) That would help some, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 08:00 PM

Hillary voted against it.

BB the dems have a slight majority in congress, but we all know that there are enough Rep. votes to stymie anything they try to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

Yeah and all the corporations that went along with breaking the law are forgiven for the past present and future.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:36 PM

Yeah and all the corporations that went along with breaking the law are forgiven for the past present and future.

Not to put too fine a point on things, but while a corporation can be held legally responsible for a number of things, it cannot "go along" with anything. "Going along" implies that a decision was made. Corporations are merely brainless legal entities. They don't make decisions. The people who work for them or sit on their boards make decisions. If laws were broken, they were actually broken by people, not corporations.

So lets rephrase that comment:

Yeah and all the corporations whose employees went along with breaking the law are forgiven for the past present and future.

There. Now it's a true statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:19 PM

All these ideas are useless while the USA has first past the post voting... whtever 2 large groups that end up swallowing all the little fish will behave the same way in the long run...

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:32 PM

It's already being challenged...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080710/pl_nm/usa_surveillance_dc_7

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:35 AM

great, good luck to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM

Worrisome.............Need to contact PT though................hmmmmm................

Waylon

The drake has eaten the taffeta and Eugene leaves without an oboe. Many walnuts will rise in the igloo. Need caroway soon before the satchel gives birth.

Cleigh

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

Let me see if I got this straight...

Duck out and stay in deep freeze for a few weeks while we chew on this and things blow over or until crack this nut. We need too sow the seeds of a new plan before we can present our case.

But, who the fuck is Eugene?

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

Jnlyba

Gur qenxr unf rngra gur gnssrgn naq Rhtrar yrnirf jvgubhg na bobr. Znal jnyahgf jvyy evfr va gur vtybb. Arrq pnebjnl fbba orsber gur fngpury tvirf ovegu.

Pyrvtu


(I'll bet no one in congress knows about ROT-13)

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM

Gosh, Peter T....here I was giving you the "silent treatment" for the last couple of years in order to very firmly put you in your place, and now it's not going to work properly at all because you will just imagine that I am trying to avoid US government surveillance! This is hardly fair. I intend to write a protest letter to George Bush about it forthwith.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

T'wit?

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM

Guhf vs Trbetr Ohfu ernyyl vf n zbeba ur jbhyq nofbyhgryl ab vqrn jung gur uryy jnf tbvat ba

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 03:18 PM

Loud sing cuckoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM

Bee-Dubya-Ell said, in part:

"So lets rephrase that comment:

Yeah and all the corporations whose employees went along with breaking the law are forgiven for the past present and future.

There. Now it's a true statement."

Bee-Dubya-Ell, you've missed the point. A corporation can only act through its individual employees and agents; there is no action by a corporation except by those parties.

A corporation therefore is responsible for the acts of its employees and agents, assuming they are acting within their corporate-assigned roles.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

13245 21698 81453

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 03:57 PM

Orr-Qholn-Ryy fnvq, va cneg:

"Fb yrgf ercuenfr gung pbzzrag:

Lrnu naq nyy gur pbecbengvbaf jubfr rzcyblrrf jrag nybat jvgu oernxvat gur ynj ner sbetvira sbe gur cnfg cerfrag naq shgher.

Gurer. Abj vg'f n gehr fgngrzrag."

Orr-Qholn-Ryy, lbh'ir zvffrq gur cbvag. N pbecbengvba pna bayl npg guebhtu vgf vaqvivqhny rzcyblrrf naq ntragf; gurer vf ab npgvba ol n pbecbengvba rkprcg ol gubfr cnegvrf.

N pbecbengvba gurersber vf erfcbafvoyr sbe gur npgf bs vgf rzcyblrrf naq ntragf, nffhzvat gurl ner npgvat jvguva gurve pbecbengr-nffvtarq ebyrf.

Qnir Brfgreervpu

And having repeated that simply because I can, it should be noted that the solution to the ROT-13 coding can be found

HERE

(I'll bet no one in congress knows about ROT-13)

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 08:40 PM

Little Hawk quoth:

Do away with those 2 political parties. That would be a good start.

I agree.

Then select new members of Congress by lot from a large pool of nonpartisan individuals who meet the basic requirements needed to do the job...

I agree. And it should be by a draft. Anyone who wants political office is psychologically unfit to hold it.

...and make sure that only 5% of them are lawyers. ;-) That would help some, I think.

Wrong, IMO. Having law made by people who don't know how law works is a recipe for disaster. Lawmakers should be trained in the law. Which does NOT mean that they need to be practicing lawyers. Practicing lawyers, especially trial lawyers, have their own agenda, which involves keeping the law too complex for lay people so that lawyers can continue to make money. But if the legislators start making laws without any knowledge of the existing body of the law or the machinery for putting it into effect, they'll make things worse.

Another thought would be to require that for every individual word added to the total word count of the General Statutes, two words must be deleted by repeal of some other law.

A third would be to greatly limit the administrative rulemaking power of non-elected bureaucrats, which power grows constantly.

Peter. (A lawyer, in semiretirement)

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:08 PM

That's a well thought position on the matter, Peter. Okay then, drop the part about the lawyers, I guess. I agree heartily that the selection by lot should be by draft...and I think it would come to be seen as an honored position of responsibility by those who were selected.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:09 PM

Genius is 98% . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM

... luck and knowing enough to take the credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:22 PM

Consider the tree -
"Growth creates Structure - Structure inhibits Growth"

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: semi-submersible
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

"Growth creates Structure - Structure inhibits Growth"
... would mature into a steady state. But what we see in the world are structures that:
(a) set seed, reproducing themselves,
(b) are attacked by other growths using their materials or place for their own purposes, and/or
(c) lose the ability to maintain the structure (since repair or regeneration, as growth processes, are inhibited) leading to breakdown.
Add:
"Structure when mature generates new Growth"
- and you'll have a forest. Add some defense and repair subroutines to the growth pattern and it can support an ecosystem.

By the way, LK'sB, why should either level of "gummint" care what goes on if their living doesn't depend on things going well?

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Cleigh,

The winter drives a hard bargain, but in the spring the blackbirds make Tuesdays special.   Let me know if the second cousin has arrived.

yours ever,

Waylon

P.S. The Al-Qaeda Book Club membership was a real disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:56 PM

Herons All:

The flock chatters madly as sunrise approaches. In this new day, let the light cast long shadows, and may you all find much to eat.


Red Heron Two

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 12:27 AM

To he that waits:

The piebald wastrel perches elegantly upon the bent pine. Surely as sunset precedes darkness does the vacant miser retain his place upon the unencumbered hearth.

Drunkards Nine

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:30 AM

85647 91922 00634

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:45 AM

"Growth creates Structure - Structure inhibits Growth"
Was originally meant to apply to a single entity.

Once set in motion, the existing structure means that certain future possibilites are extinguished and unable to be reached - which is why the US 2 party first past the post political game has reached the limits of growth stymied by its current sructure. It never CAN get any beter now.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM

One if by land, two if by sea,
Three if by electric underground.

The Gold Bug

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: dwditty
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

The code word is "swordfish."

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:30 AM

Waylon,

The Hansel departs at dawn from a deep bayou dock. The fiery kestrel will light your way.

Cleigh

P.S. Sorry about the book club. I have enrolled you instead in the Afghani Fruit of the Month Club.

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 10:19 AM

Dear Cleigh, having a good day, I wish you were here*



*to read secret message, spray computer screen with lemon juice, bring candle up close to screen, rotate screen to prevent scalding, and voila!!

yours,

Gold Bug

Subject: RE: BS: Be Careful Contacting Me
From: semi-submersible
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

Foolestroupe: "It never can get any better now."

In its current growth cycle, true. But (the curse of living in "interesting times") the maturity stage seems as dynamic as the growth phase has been. All three end-game processes are well represented in the current situation:

(c) Breakdown: "There nedeth make of this none argument." (Chaucer)

(a) Starting over: Diverse groups within this society are trying to build better, more sane or adaptable communities since this one so obviously isn't. (As we don't know what better societies would look like and how they work, unfortunately we're having trouble working together toward shared visions.)

(b) Attack: Minor as yet, aside from internal decay processes, but opportunists grow bold as our shell starts to totter.

Details of choosing delegates are but a part of the system. Do you think forming a government from representatives chosen every few years is the best way to govern ourselves, and if not, how? How should we communicate with our delegates (if any) and how (and by whom) do you want your news shaped so you as a citizen can direct your government intelligently? How much time each day do we each need to spend on civic duties?

(If you suggest another thread or forum for this sort of discussion, I'd be happy to adjourn thence.)