BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes

Subject: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:15 AM

From the Washingtom Post. Again, it seems a reasonable summary that I agree with.



Tax the Rich? We Already Do

Dear Stumped,

We are constantly told the rich don't pay any taxes, but my father-in-law claims that the top 5 percent pay 50 percent of the income tax, while the bottom 45 percent pay none. How is this possible? It contradicts everything I've been told since I was 12 years old.

-- Larry Anderson

Dear Larry,

Well, clearly you haven't been reading the Wall Street Journal editorial page since you were 12 years old. If so, you might believe that only the rich pay taxes in this country. It's silly, really, how polarized we can get not just about differences of opinion, but also about underlying facts.

Your father-in-law is in the ballpark. According to the Congressional Budget Office, in 2005 the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes. You can find all the charts and graphs you'd ever want about this issue at the CBO's page on the distribution of taxes and income. (But don't all click at once. Wouldn't want to crash the site.)

That's a fact. What spin you put on it depends on your political leanings. Of course these households pay the lion's share of income taxes because they make a large share of income in this country -- 29 percent of all pre-tax income, to be precise. If you lean left, you could bemoan this income inequality. Or, if you lean right, you could bemoan the fact that this entrepreneurial minority is taxed well beyond its proportional share of income. To which those of you on the left can strike back with the observation that the effective income tax rates paid by these top 5 percent of earners is a relatively modest 17.6 percent, down from 20.3 percent in 1995.

The bottom line, which is a good term to use when we're talking about this stuff, is that the rich are still getting richer -- even as they pay an increasing share of the Treasury's tax revenues.

Some historic perspective is in order. In 1980, the top 5 percent of wage earners contributed 36.9 percent of all income tax revenue, a considerably smaller percentage than they do today, even though they faced higher individual rates. In 1995, the richest 5 percent of taxpayers contributed 45 percent of all income tax revenue. So as the rich have gotten richer, their collective contribution to the Treasury has gone up, even as their individual burdens, as measured by marginal tax rates, have declined. So any individual rich person may be paying less in taxes than he did a few decades ago, but as a group, rich people are paying more taxes than ever before.

Got that? Dizzy yet?

My own view is that the rich in this country are not undertaxed, and that they may have once been overtaxed. (Call me a reactionary, but once the government starts taking more than half of any additional dollar earned, that strikes me as confiscatory). There are plenty of oddities and injustices about our tax code, including the regressive nature of the politically sacrosant mortgage interest deduction, but the rich do pay their fare share of income taxes in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

Well, they oughtta be payin' More than that seein' as they have corraled all the wealth and the working class can't make ends meet anymore... Not to mention that it is the working class whop does all the work... Rich people, by in large, produce absolutely nothing... They are rich because the picked rich parents...

This is more of the same old election cycle BS that the rich drag out every 4 years or any time it looks as if a Repub ain't gonna win the presidency... There will be alot more of Dear Stumped, who obviously is nothing but a shill for the rich...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

"in 2005 the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes.
...
Of course these households pay the lion's share of income taxes because they make a large share of income in this country -- 29 percent of all pre-tax income, to be precise."




60.7 % of all income taxes on 29 % of all income- And Bobert thinks they should be paying more.....


That translates to 39.3 % of total income taxes being paid by the other 95% of the population on 71% of the total income. What do we ant to say THEIR fair share is????


IMO, there should be a modified flat tax- a single rate that takes effect at some fixed point, say $25,000. Everything below that is not taxed, everything above it is taxed at a fixed rate of say 12%.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

As I've said here, "within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work compared with others is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support."

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:39 AM

Just goes to show what an awful lot of money the rich rich do take as income.

Even though that's just a small fraction of the money they actually get hold of, since there are so many ways of fiddling things so that money can avoid being classed as income, and of dodging tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

OK. then give me a number:

What percentage of total income taxes should be paid by the top 20% of the population?


80%?

90%?

Please let me know what you think is fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:50 AM

Seeing as rich people don't actually, ahhhhh, produce anything then I'd say 100% would be their fair share...

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

Fine. Give me back all the taxes I pay. I suspect YOU are up there abover $120K, I'm not.


But I disagree with your assertion that the "rich" don't produce anything. They seem good at making Congressmen and Senators ( Both parties: ALL of whom are in the top 20%)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Warren Buffett says he doesn't pay enough taxes, and gives good reasons for it.

He's had a standing offer out for a couple of years now to give a million dollar check to any CEO of a Fortune 500 company who will show that he (the CEO) paid more in income taxes than his (the CEO's) secretary.

No takers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:08 AM

So then, bb... What exactly do they ***produce***???

Taxes should be for those who do work and add to the general wealth of the nation... If you can't or won't do that then there is no reason why you should feel entitled to the spoils...

The rich are nothing but America's true "welfare class"... All they do is consume...

Just how much do you, bb, think we should pay folks who won't work other than figuring ways around paying taxes (if that is work)???

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5746&type=0&sequence=1



It is not a matter of PAYING them, it is a matter of what is THEIR fair share of the taxes to be paid. How much of what they EARN ( INCOME) should be taken from them? YOU seem to be saying that they should pay all the taxes, because they do not contribute "work"


"for those who do work and add to the general wealth of the nation"

So I should presume YOU will also support taxing all those on welfare at high rates? What are THEY adding?

And if the rich are contributing nothing, you would have no problem with them all taking their money and going to other countries? After all, we certainly do not need any money for investment, or to have anyone own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

So, according to Bobert the "rich" should pay 25% more than they do presently ( They pay 80%, he thinks they should pay 100% of the total income tax collected) in income taxes, and the rest of us should pay nothing- ie, only those making above $120,000 should pay any income tax.


Any other numbers?


Come on, what should be the "fair share" for each 20% group???

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

BB-
Well, one could start off by considering investment income as ordinary income and taxing it at the same rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:01 AM

First, the rich do not pay 80% of their adjusted gross income. Nowhere near.

Second, the rich are quite deft at tax avoidance bordering on tax-evasion. Some cases are outrageous. ANd really, you have to look at the individuals case. Gates is extraordinarily rich, buit he worled hard throughout his life until he retired. H ebuilt the company from nothing. I despise some of his practices in doing so, but even they count in this country as honest work.

If an unavoidable uniform flat tax of fifteen per cent were put in place instead of the sliding scale now in use, it would probably do wonders to simplify the tax code. If at the same time the tax were made uniform across all organizations, including schools, churches and foundations, it would probably (I imagine) balance the budget in three years.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:08 AM

"First, the rich do not pay 80% of their adjusted gross income. Nowhere near."


NOT what was said!

The first post states: "that the effective income tax rates paid by these top 5 percent of earners is a relatively modest 17.6 percent,"

WAKE UP, AMOS!


The top 20% of income pay 80% OF THE TOTAL INCOME TAXES PAID.


see the clicky.

I did not look at what they pay that on, just that they DO pay it. WITH all the various tax schemes that Congress ( all of whom are in that 20%) have given them.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

What really nails working people, those who make adequate income, but are by no means rolling in it, is not the income tax, it's the Social Security tax. And that goes double - literally - for the self-employed. And that tax CUTS OFF ENTIRELY for the most affluent levels.

Of course, _I_ shouldn't bitch and moan, I just started collecting a year ago, and I like it. But I'll have to live to a great old age to collect back what I've paid in since 1958 or so, plus the interest that would have accrued had it been in the bank. (Not as great an old age as I would have had to if I'd made the money that everyone knows all lawyers make, though.)

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

A whole other arguement ( which I probably agree with you on)

But SS and Medicare are NOT taxes: They are "insurance" programs.

And I expect to get nothing, unless I get rid of all my savings and pensions before I retire.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:25 AM

bb - Don't be so pessimistic. John McCain drew over $22,000.00 in Social Security last year, and his wife earned over 6 million dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

Ayup. If you wait until "full retirement age" (about 66 now, although I think it's still going up) to start taking it, you get your full payout based on your lifetime earnings, no matter how much you're making at the time.

Half of it becomes taxable income, though. BFD.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

67 and 4 months...


And I thought I had paid taxes when I earned it. They certainly do not allow me to deduct it on my 1040...


And all I hear is how they will be changing it ( as they have already changed it) before I can retire, to stop payments to people who have other income ( such as pensions). Can't have anyoe who plans ahead and saves ( instead of spending it all) getting any more money ( after taxes).

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

And there was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle a year or so back that talked about people coming from Asia, establishing residency in the US, then having their aged parents give them all their money, and then have the parents come to the US to live with them. After that they put the parents on SSI.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:48 AM

I am not going to debate the predicate you lay out, Bruce. The percentage of total taxes paid by the top 5 - 10 - 20% is not the relevant question. It is the percentage of taxes paid on their total income contrasted against the percentage average folks pay that is relevant. And in the grand scheme of things, the amount that they dodge as they take their businesses overseas, and use overseas banks to hide, that is not in the mix here either.

I reject absolutely any attempt to make the richest, most over compensated, and in many cases, the poorest managers, into any kind of object of pity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

Since the top 20% are those over $120,000 per year, I think one can safely say that a large number of them are those who have significant years of experiance, and are the mid-level managers and senior union workers that actually keep this country running.

Now, if you want to claim that the percentage making as much and more than Congress makes are all over-compensated and poor managers I would havce little cause to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

That is classic obfuscation, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

Good point, Mick...

Rich people have perfected the art of tax avoidence so by the time you get to their adjusted taxable income you are only seeing the tip of the iceburg...

I know of an tax accountant in Loudoun Co., Va, which BTW is the wealthiest per capita county in the country, who asks his clients "How much do you wnat to pay in taxes this year?" and then goes about cookin' the books until he justifies that amount...

So, inspite of bb's hand wringing for the rich, they have never had is so good so if anyone was a bout to loose any sleep over these oppressed people, you can sleep tight...

As for bb's stats... Well, there is more more money by far that rich people hide in the Cayment Islands than is paid out in all Social Service welfare programs... And this is just lefally hidden tax exempt money... But we know how the Repub's love their little stories about Welfare Cadillacs and all...

BTW, bb... Do you even have a clue what the elegibility requirements are to recieve either AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) of ADC (Aid to Dependent Children)??? Do you know the makeups of those families??? Do you know the time limits for assistence??? Or are you just blowing alot of hot air in trying to equate a mom and her three kids who get a little assistence now while working or trying to work with the rich people whoes only job is hiding money from the taxman???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:28 PM

Bobert,

YOU were the one who says that those who do not work have to pay all the taxes, not me.


I figured out that you don't have a clue about a lot of things outside of Blues ( There I will concede your knowledge and competance to be far above mine)

The point I keep trying to make is that, regardless of what percentage OF THEIR INCOME they are paying, that 20% IS paying 80% of the TOTAL income taxes being collected.

So I guess we should get rid of them, and their taxes- I am sure you would be happier with only 20% of the present TOTAL income taxes collected, as long as those "rich" folks were not around to bother you.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM

I think it would be interesting to compute all these numbers in terms of basic life requirements, instead of just gross dollars.

Does it take, say, 40,000 after tax dollars in a year to live a basic life, without catastrophe? Then the person who earns less is, accordingly, living only a partial life, the degree to which they are chained down by inadequate revenue.

A person who earns 400,000/yr is taking in enough to live ten lives in parallel.

Four million, 100 lives.

Or you could compute it all in loaves of bread. Point is it would give you a stronger picture of the imbalance of wealth versus production attributable to the many kinds of legal but dysfunctional leverage that distort our economy, ranging from strange interest values to out and out white collar crime.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

Why shouldn't the the top-earning 5 percent of U.S. households paid 60.7 percent of all income taxes ~ if, as I've been told, the top-"earning" TWO percent control well MORE than 2/3 of the nation's wealth?

Even if those numbers aren't precisely "on the money," I would still contend that those who can most easily afford to pay taxes manage to survive pretty nicely on their after-tax income.

And, yes, I know that the "control" of wealth includes more in the way of assets than of current-fiscal-year income, but still...

There are way too many people in this country having trouble making ends meet who carry a difficult tax burden ~ and I'm not talking about the "welfare class," at least not exclusively: I'm talking about working folks, incuding white-collar wage slaves, who like to consider themselves "middle class."

There are a lot of factors going into this:

~ As Midchuck pointed out, the working poor and the middle-to-lower-middle classes pay a significantly high percentage of their income as FICA (payroll) taxes, while the highest earners pay no more than folks just scraping by on a very modest income. Note that I'm not saying the rich pay no higher a percentage than the average Joe ~ they pay no higher an amount, which means they pay a much lower percentage. You can say all you want about SS being "insurance, not a tax," but only the cluelessly overprivileged would find that fine distinction the least bit comforting. If the government is confisicating a hefty chuck of your paycheck, that sure smells like texation to me.

(I might note than in the early 80s, when Reagan was bragging about his "tax cuts," I actually began paying MORE in tax than ever before. The big jump in payroll taxes didn't come close to making up for the measly little break I got on my income tax.)

~ I would hesitate to go along with the assertion that all rich folks are parasites, but I do not believe that ANYONE's time is worth 50, 100, 500 times that of any other working person.

Could we agree, at least, that the typical Fortune 500 CEO is a bit of a parasite, "earning" millions with NO accountrability and NO penalty for poor performance? The current drastically-out-of-balance compensation schemes at typical large corporations only serve to encourage the most bitter and extreme kinds of class hatred, because it has become common practice to use up workers and throw them away while at the same time the privileged elite serve on each other's boards of directors and vote each other gargantuan salaries, loads of perks, and "golden parachutes" for when they finally get caught srewing up.

Keep in mind not only that most of those who can afford legal/accounting advice make use of it to minimize their exposure to taxpaying, but also that the most privileged, the biggest insiders, get millions back from the government in the form of cost-plus contracts and other such brother-in-law deals. (Think Dick Cheney.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:03 PM

Well, bb... Think back to the 90's... I didn't hear rich people complaining about how much a larger share of the pie they were getting than in previous decades... No, you never hear them complain about all the money they get that at one time would have been beyond their wildeset dreams... The rich have rigged the game so that they get more and more and more of the pie while crying poor-mouth...

What a joke...

Heck, if the rich could have it their way they would get 100% of the income... Then what, bb... Who would pay the texes then??? The fact that the lower 80% wage earners don't pay any more tax is simple... You can't get blood from a turnip... This ain't rocket surgery, bruce...

The working class has lost purchasing power every year since 1982...

What many of are saying is that it is time to let the sunset on the Bush tax cuts for the rich... No, make that way past time.... The finacial crisis we are now facing ahouldn't surprise anyone... Our Euopean trading partners warned US as far back as 5 years ago that we needed to get our federal deficts down or we would face what is now accyring... We didn't... We just went merrily anlong thinking that this day wouldn't come... This is of our doing...

The argument was that if we cu the taxes on the rich that they would invest that money back into jobs... Problem is that this class of fat ctas don't give a rats ass about the economy or much of anything else... They didn't reinvest their money... They lent it to the working class who in turn financed thier kids educations, paid off medical bills or used it to keep a roof over ut's head... That is not reinvesting in America, bruce... That is "usary"... Usary used to be illegal but the fat cats got them laws off the books...

Ya' see, bruce, this is what is knew as when the chickens come home to roost... And now we do have a financial crisis... I just heard on NPR that the only folks who are consuming these days are the rich and that they are consuming with great gusto...

Maybe this is your idea of a fair country but it isn't mine or the 95% of folks who ain't part of the monied class...

I say, "Let the sun set on Bush's biggest finacial failure"... Lets return to sane econimic policies and lets spread some of the wealth around...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:20 PM

beardedbruce: arguing with Bobert about "rich folks", who he believes should pay all the money they earn in taxes is like arguing with a fence post. Don't you know "rich folks" are the bane of the earth? They are just "takers" never "givers." Of course I don't think a check of non-profit organizations who depend upon a lot of "rich folks" to contribute to their efforts would agree with Bobert.

I'm for ANYBODY in America who has the talent, ambition, and fortitude to make as much money as they can if they earn it legally. That's one of the many things that makes this country great!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

News for Bruce, there are many taxes on income that the government doesn't call income tax.   
The lower and middle classes pay the lion's share of all taxes, especially consumption taxes.
The upper classes get much more benefit from taxes paid.

News for Bruce, Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher RATE of tax than Buffett.

News for Bruce. That's the problem with using opinion pieces as a source of "information". You only get the "information" that supports the opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:18 PM

And nobody has said that anymore $120,000 is NOT 'rich'. Given the inflation rate, $120K is now middle class. Our (my husband and I) combined GROSS income last year was just under $60,000 and we are just scraping by. MINIMAL savings, and he works TWO full time jobs to make ends meet.

Me, I just make pizza for Minimum Wage (I have a BA degree for this?) which as of July 24 will be the incredible sum of $6.55/hr. I'm too OLD to have to work this hard.

And the 'stimulus' payment? Pure D idiocy! Prez Idiot borrowed money from China to pay nearly all taxpayers @$600 per person. An additional $600 per eligible dependant. However, if you didn't MAKE enough money to file taxes, you didn't even GET the stupid 'stimulus' payment! THEY are the ones who NEED it!

My government is full of idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Dougie, Dougie, Dougie...

It ain't about legally making money... It's about morally making money... Huh, you ask???

That's right... First of all, most rich people aren't rich because they went out and legally or morally earned it... No, they just picked rich parents... Good choice...

But just as importantly, we have a class of people who have so much money that they can buy off the folks who makes the laws... Now that ain'y good when the laws tend to make them richer... That ain't hard work... That is corruption... Our tax codes are so screwed up that we allow rich people an almost endless menu of ways not to pay taxes if they don't want to...

We allow rich people to set up off-shore corporations in the Camen Islands which robs our Treasury of tens of billions of dollars a year... We allow rich people to make deals with foreign countries to build out infastructure and entire manufacturing plants under the guise of "corporate taxes" which is exempt from US taxes...

If I hade to guess at how much wealth the rich hide legally I would venture it would be in the tens of trillions of dollars... And guess what??? It's all, ahhhhhhhh, friggin' legal???

Yet we gotta keep hearing "poor mouth" from these folks and their shills, think bb here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:31 AM

"(I might note than in the early 80s, when Reagan was bragging about his "tax cuts," I actually began paying MORE in tax than ever before. The big jump in payroll taxes didn't come close to making up for the measly little break I got on my income tax.)"


                   Yeah, PoppaGator, I think almost everybody did, but then they went to the polls in 1984 and voted the idiot in for another term under the illusion that he'd cut taxes.

                   But the bigger picture, I think, was "supply side economics" and the deregulation of banking that came with it. Capital was everything after that. Hard work and ingenuity had very little value. So fewer and fewer people had higher and higher stacks of chips to play with. Avoiding US taxes was easy for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

Yeah, Rigs and we're all still waitin' for the "trickle down" to begin...

What we need is "trickle up" economics where the working class is compensated at the very least '82 wages (idexed) and make the rich have to get off their lazy consumin' butts and work on a level playing field...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:32 PM

Regarding the idea that the rich are unproductive:

It may have been true in Europe, in 1848, that the rich produced nothing. Is it true,in the U.S.A., in 2008? Does anyone consider Bill Gates to be unproductive? Is Oprah Winfrey unproductive? What about Steve Jobs? Sergey Brin? Michael Bloomberg? Michael Dell? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Will Smith? Bill Cosby? Katie Kouric? Ted Turner? "Papa John" Schnatter?
Kirk Kerkorian works hard. Martha Stewart, whether you like her or not, works hard. Ditto Al Gore. In this country, even those who married into money or inherited it often keep right on working (consider John Kerry and Jay Rockerfeller).
A slight acquaintance of mine recently sold his coal mines for $600 million. He worked hard for 40 years to build that business from nothing. A good friend has property worth several million. He was raised poor, worked hard and smart, was blessed with a strong body and a strong mind, and made good investments in rental properties. He is 76 and, in keeping up those properties, does more physical labor on an average day than I do in a week. Your friendly neighborhood neurosurgeon is probably rich, and, if he's well-established, so is your local orthopedic surgeon. Do you consider them unproductive? In our town, the rich work hard at their businesses, businesses that, in many cases, they built from scratch.
Look around and see if the same isn't true in your town.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:45 PM

No one should pay taxes on their income ... poor or rich.

and that's my middle class 2 cents worth ... and I worked for every one of those 2 penny.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:07 PM

"Look around and see if the same isn't true in your town."


                  In my town it works like this: there are a number of people who have inherited wealth, and took what they had and worked with it and did well. There are a number of people who inherited wealth, or married it, and engage in sideline events like improving a piece of property, from time to time, and they seem to do all right if they don't get reckless.
                  There are a whole lot of people who work their collective asses off every day of the week, and don't have anything and probably never will because they never had anything to start with.
                  And there are a few lottery winners like the folks you describe above.


                  I think you can divide modern American history into two parts: before Ronald Reagan and after Ronald Reagan. Before Ronald Reagan you had a lot better chance of making something of yourself through hard work and ingenuity. After Ronald Reagan, the only thing that mattered was money.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

So, your accountant does a good job for you huh, Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

Kent,

Bill Gates, retired before 60, literally has a million times more money than the average policeman or teacher.

Are you saying that he has worked a million times harder?

Are you implying that it is fair that he pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes?

Does he not he enjoy the opportunities this country offers in proportion to his wealth?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:00 AM

No one should pay taxes on their income ... poor or rich.

and that's my middle class 2 cents worth ... and I worked for every one of those 2 penny.

biLL

______________

How do you propose that government services are paid for?

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:01 AM

Hey Jack .... sales Tax, VAT, tax liquor, tax drugs (dicirminalize pot, smack), tax gambling etc.

Taxing income is not much different than mob (gang) protection mentality.

But then again we wouldn't have to be taxed so much if we had a much, much, and much smaller government who managed it's affairs effciently.

Actually I'm not a big fan at all of governments (countries), religion or any organization that wants to rule your life and take a considerable chunk of change out of one's pocket.

but ...

"You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

... biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

As a new member, this is my first post. I arrived here via a Google search and followed this thread which I found engaging. My perspective is that of a retired, NCO,Navy navigator turned Artist/Crafter. I'm single, never married and somehow get by on my retirement and the modest proceeds of my art with less than 20K income. I live for my work. I bust my ass daily trying to manipulate exotic wood boards into novel hollow forms. What matters to me is that I advance my knowledge and enhance my creativity, not make a stack of lettuce that would no doubt lead me away from what I enjoy. That said:
   This Nation, to my understanding was founded on the premise of meritocracy. It's inception stemmed from a deep revulsion of the arbitrary dictates of an oligarchy.
   We are seeing, most plainly, an orchestrated transference of wealth from the middle class to the upper crust. I wouldn;t mind that if I could somehow equate that with a concomittant improvement in the condition of mankind in general. What I'm saying is, and Carnegie, said it well, "Wealth is responsibility." What I'm seeing here, on a grand scale, is the contrary. If it were not so, we would not be so near the precipice of inveterate aristocracy. The trend is to privatize wealth and socialize debt. On top of that cake is the icing of continued usorial interest rates on credit cards.

"New things do not come out of high places." (who said that?)
   
You can point to many entrepeneurs who have made their fortunes from invention, talent, and good businessmanship. To them I say fine, and what did you do for your country today? And how can you utilize the fruits of you labor to sustain our way of life. Rome build aqueducts. The last major pan-American project was the Interstate highway system. How do we project our influence if we continue to rely upon 19th Century ideas?
   
   Anyway, I really could care less about how much is taxed or how much is not. I'm more concerned with attitude. I'm more concerned with what and what not the wealth could do. Globalization is a cop-out. It's another laissez-faire disinformation ploy and if you look close enough, most of the Right side of the aisle in Congress stand next to a 5 gallon can of whitewash. A great political machine that cannot stand government and hence will not govern.
    A survey was taken a few months ago. It asked a bunch of wealthy people their level of

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

A survey was taken a few months ago. It asked a bunch of wealthy people how secure they felt with the wealth they had. Most replied that they would feel much better if they had more money. In other words the more they have the less secure they feel

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

Number6

You would only tax consumption or activities you disapprove of.

The problem there is twofold. It drives an underground economy and it it brutally regressive. As rich as someone might be they may not consume proportionally to the burden that their lifestyle places on the economy.

The people with higher incomes benefit more from the infrastructure of society. They should pay in proportion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:23 PM

But Jack ... in regards to the underground economy .... of course there will be ... but look as it stands now in regards to income tax ... the extremely large beauracracy to manage it, plus the brutality of the government's collection of it ... and the income loop holes which everyone poor, middle class and rich will try their best at.

OK ... as I mentioned let's apply the sin tax, who could argue against that ... but in regards to what we apply sales tax to, let's stay away from the detail here in this thread (ok, no tax on food, heating oil etc).

Now .. in regards to what the poor vs rich pay ... the poor if they can will buy a used Sunbird, the rich will buy multiple expensive (personal) cars ... Mercedes, BMW and all that ... proportionately the rich would pay their fair share in taxes.

Pay tax on what you buy ... not on what $$ you earn.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:00 PM

Number six, Bill Gates makes way more than a million times more money than me. Does he spend a million time more on transportation? By your system, if he wanted a yacht or a private plane he could just buy it where the taxes are less.

Is our trillion dollar military protecting my little 50 x 100 lot and 1000 sq ft home, or are they protecting Gates' interests over seas?

The rich gets the gravy. They need to pay their share,

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

Mike789,

Great 1st post... This ol' hillbuilly likes you allready...

Yeah, we have lost our way... We've seen a 30 year profit-taking binge and it way past time for the monied class to sober up and get back to being good, yes, patriotic Americans rather than terrorists...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

I dunno Jack .... I wouldn't condemn all of the 'economic rich' for all the ills in today's society, many of the less economic wealthy are beating the drums of war, and many of the economic fortunate are praying for peace and humanity ... we cannot just stand there and point the finger at the 'rich' for not paying their share ... what is needed is accessible healthcare for all, quality education for all, affordable housing for the less fortunate ... this can be achieved not by taxing income ... but other ways of taxation and most important a smaller government, better management of government funds and to be applied to those elements what I previously mentioned, not funneling $$trillions$$ to the war machine, or corporations or beauracrats.

To be honest I can't give a rat's ass if someone is filthy rich ... I just would like opportunities for all ... and I believe this could be acheved with a better taxation system ... not just grabbing at one's paycheck.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rich pay fair share of taxes
From: Mike789
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:43 PM

biLL
A good start is a living wage for all. That does not seem to be a component of "Capitalism" where maximum bottom line is the motivating force.

If we are going to compete with the numbers in China and India, we must cultivate all our assets. Our brain trust has to grow expotentially.

When companies are expected to grow at better than 10% by their share-holders, a shift in the labor force overseas is inevitable. Soon, with growing competition for limited resources, that paradigm will be tested. The era of zero growth may be soon upon us.

Our country thrives on the idea of Manifest Destiny. The Earth's limits have been attenuated. How about some major projects at home to set us in good stead for the 21st Century? If my taxes go for something that will pay off, I'd send in my nickel without complaint.

Wasting time nation building. What a misguided goose chase fostered by highly educated guess-meisters who, for their compensation, should have known,(and they knew and ignored) better.

I believe that a new value system is needed. Someone above mantioned that notion. The idea that having more money and the stuff it can buy, as a determinatn of one's social status seems to ignore whether one's actions getting there are advancing civilization. Right now the ends justify the means. A teacher is paid less than what they are worth because what they produce, i.e., minds that reason, are not in demand.

Maybe one day we'll have had enough of this soul-less, superfluous, foreign made, hocum. The purveyors of all these supposed "goods" would have us dumbed down. A grab-ass society is their fertile plain. They've lead us to suburbia and now we may be over extended.

All the little guys, in their shops and garages, busting their butts, trying to invent our way out of this mess, have got to figure a way not to get ridden out by the bohemoths of corporate greed.