BS: Political Correctness creates tension

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Harmony Sovereign
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:20 PM

"Evidently it is still commonly used by African-Americans but it is considered in very bad taste for a white person to use it."

Very true. This is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM

The problem with ostracizing a word like that is, when the wrong person doesn't use it, he gets to feel good about it, and he might not have earned the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:17 PM

Yes, Doug, I was putting you on. We all know what the famous "n" word is. It's the only world left now in the English language that white people are so terrified of that they can't even speak it aloud or even print it out fully EVEN when they're explaining to other white people how bad it is...!

I find that kind of intriguing, that level of fear, because it's not a behaviour much due to respect, it's mainly due to abject fear. There were some great standup humorists back in the 70's who know how to confront this kind of thing directly and show how ultimately silly it is for us all to live in fear and trembling of a word...any word. They did this by using the various most dreadful words of the day (including the N word, the F word, etc) in such a ridiculously repetitive and obviously satirical fashion as to completely demystify the word and reduce its emotional impact down to zilch. There's a way of doing that, but it takes courage and finesse, combined with a measure of real compassion and understanding.

Such courage has become rarer of late. So have the finesse, compassion, and understanding. Fear rules the dialogue now.

People are content now to only look at the cover of the book (as with the recent issue of the New Yorker), and skip reading the contents altogether. They form a snap judgement on the cover alone, because it spares them exerting mental effort. This is not so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM

Just on the ITV news there a man was killed at a busy railway station as he had a piss on the track. The 41-year-old Polish man got off the busy platform and was electrocuted as he pissed on live wires. The incident occurred at Vauxhall station in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

'Tourist killed after urinating on railway line'

'According to The Sun, the Polish tourist went to find somewhere discreet to go to the toilet and his urine splashed on to the live rail.

According to Network Rail, more than 60 people are killed on railway lines each year.'
- from The Scotsman

NB it is also reported that there are no public toilets at the station!

your point guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM

Re the N word, an interesting case in point is the opening chorus of the musical "Showboat", by Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein.

The original chorus went something like:-

"N****** all work on the Mississipi."

This went through various stages such as:-

"Darkies all work on the Mississipi."

"Colured Folks Work on the Mississipi"

to "We all work on the Mississipi"

until finally, no one worked on the Mississipi and the opening chorus was omitted completely. The accompanying article is quite enlightening on OH's original intentions:-


New Statesman article

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: TIA
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

If I remember correctly when I first heard this term used in the late 1980s, it was referring to the phenomenon of calling a group of people what *they* wanted to be called...e.g. Native Americans rather than Indians, or Disabled (Differently-Abled?) instead of Crippled. Anyone who objects to Political Correctness by this definition (perhaps my personal definition?) is Etiquette-Challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

My point is Emma, "Don't piss on railway lines". You said there are toilets in Vauxhall Station ? Please tell us when they were removed, I used a week ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

Well Peter it's sound advice not to urinate near an electric railway line but I fail to see what at all that has to do with any discussion about 'political correctness' except, of course, once more offering someone, however inappropiately, the opportunity of commenting negatively on a foreign (Polish being the 'flavour of the month) visitor to the UK.

Not even a legal economic immigrant mind you but a school teacher on vacation to improve his English!

and btw - I don't know just where you went but the official list of facilities for the station is as follows -

Station Facilities ^ TopService Details
First Class Lounge No
Seating Area Yes
Waiting Rooms Yes
Women-Only Waiting Room No
Trolleys No
Refreshment Facilities No
Toilets No
Baby Changing No
Pay Phone Yes -
Public WiFi No
Public WiFi - Note Find WiFi Hotspots around Vauxhall station
Web Kiosk No
Post Box No
Tourist Information Office No
ATM Machine Yes
Bureau de Change No
Shops Yes

From The National Rail Enquiries webpage.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

"the phenomenon of calling a group of people what *they* wanted to be called"

Ah...but who is "they"? It's true that some "Native Americans" (primarily some in the USA and Canada) now wish to be called by the term "Native Americans" only and they refer to themselves as such...while others, however, still prefer to be called "Indians" and they refer to themselves as such, while others are more fond of the term "First Nations", etc...still others like to be called "Amerindians", Inuit, Abenaki, Indios, Chippewas, whatever....

So who is the "they" who has the final word on the matter? There is no such "they", and there isn't going to be, because there is no final word on the matter. There never will be, because we don't all have the same cultural habits and we never will, and neither will Amerindians. They are not homogeneous, any more than White poeple are...they are many nations and indiduals with many different ideas. They do not agree among each other...no more than us White people do. ;-) They never have agreed among each other, and neither have the Europeans. Just look back at history.

Of course we should call people what they wish to be called (if we can figure out what that is), but they simply don't all have the same wishes in that regard, and how the hell are we to determine what their specific wishes ALL are in each individual case and in every region if we are not telepathic, and why should we be taken to task for innocently referring to someone somewhere as an Indian when he doesn't mind being referred to as an Indian and refers to himself as an Indian? Why should we be taken to task for that just because someone somewhere else has decided that their preference is the only preference that counts in regards to this, and that everyone in the world should now bow to their preference (including other Indians), and only use the term "Native American"??? Who made that person God over all the rest of us people?

There is no reason to automatically assume an offence where none was ever intended, and no one intends an offence when they call someone else an "Indian".

There is also no reason to try to force your particular preference on everyone else in the world...and that is what is at the heart of what is so wrong with this kind of political correctness we're seeing now. It is an attempt to emotionally blackmail all other people in the world into doing something your way, when your way may be nothing more than a very temporary, and probably arbitrary convention...a style that has caught on with somebody...a passing fad of language that has caught on with some quite vocal advocacy group who have decided that, by golly, they are going to convert everyone else to their preference.

For instance, most people call guide dogs, "guide dogs". Okay? But there is a blind girl (Oh, dear! I should have said "a vision-impaired female citizen") here in this town, a friend of us musicians...and she's a fine person to know, and a good singer too...however, she has one particular bee in her bonnet. She regards the term "guide dog" as being archaic and incorrect. She says it's not "guide dog" anymore, it's "dog guide". She never ceases correcting people about this and firmly drawing their attention to it, despite the fact that everywhere I go in this world I see the term "guide dog" being used in printed matter of every sort. So she doesn't seem to be having much effect on the official status quo about it. No matter. She won't be satisfied until she has managed to somehow convert everyone to saying "dog guide" instead.

Well, gee, does it really matter whether you say "dog guide" or "guide dog"? No, it doesn't, because everyone knows what you mean. I am fine with saying "dog guide" in her presence if it makes her happy, but it simply doesn't matter about something like that, and it's a waste of time arguing with the whole world endlessly about it and trying to make them all do it YOUR way. Who cares???? The same applies to whether or not various people say "Indian", "Amerindian", or "Native American" or some other such term. It simply doesn't matter. No offence is intended regardless of which of those terms a person uses.

(My above comments are not in regards to the term "n!gger", by the way. That term is clearly derogatory in today's culture. "Indian", however, is not the least bit derogatory, never has been, and never will be. It is usally quite clear from the context of the conversation whether someone means a descendant of the Amerindians or a person from India.)

What I'm saying here is, sure...you have your speech preferences and habits...and we all do...but don't try to badger everyone else in the world into sharing your speech preferences and habits. It's not your business to do that, and it won't win you any friends or improve anyone's lot in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

Thank you, Acorn4, for the link to the "Showboat" article.

My view of this is that if the song is being sung within the performance of the play, which is set in a period when the word had currency and it should be performed as written.

On the other hand, if it is being sung apart from the show, then the word should probably be euphemistically replaced.

As to Hammerstein's purposeful use of the word, it was not the only time he used his pen to point out racial injustice. "The King and I", and "South Pacific" both had race as a background.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

Of course nobody can be expected to be telepathic, but if someone really feels strongly about having guide dog called a dog guide, it might be polite to do so (as it seems you do LH). Of course there is no universal "they", and that is just the point. Some Roberts prefer Bob,others Robbie, others Rob, others Bobbo. Why do we need to refer (often somewhat pejoratively) to simple courtesy as "political correctness"? And I am not talking about innocent first mistakes (like calling a "Bobbie" "Rob"). We all do that. But once a preference is stated, I see nothing wrong with a bit of effort to honor it (even if I don't quite get the distinction meself).

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM

TIA,

Your post of 22 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM is informative and helpful in assisting to find a more authentic definition of the term PC.

I agree with it as a bottom line, but the problem encountered when you try to apply it to ever changing reality is that of context.

I believe in honesty


... hang on ...


I don't equate honesty with narrow mindedness or rudeness I equate it with truthful expression of oneself and, as much as possible, unbiased reflection on ones strengths and weaknesses.

One thing all people honetly have in common in my opinion is their sense of curiosity about each other and about their differences.

This manifests in many ways, sometimes a desire to ask questions, sometimes to make jokes, sometimes to form opinions.

It is important to be honest with oneself above all about ones own humanity.

It is equaly important to have consideration for the humanity of others.

I enjoy finding humour in peoples differences and also in the common ground we share. The latter of these requires an ability to laugh at oneself.

In my mind any person is fair game to be ribbed ... as long as they are enjoying the joke.

It is easy to see if others are enjoying themselves or not.

If they aren't I change the subject.

If they are upset I apologize and I take note of how I upset them so I won't do it the same way in future.

Ultimately, the bottom line is that it it not for me to define another human nor to prescribe appropriate feelings to them.

My responsibility is myself and how I honestly feel in each and every different and aver changing context.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM

L.H., TIA, lox - you kind of guys are the main reason I stay here.

Thank you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM

And when exactly do you apply these hidden qualities of yours lox ?
Certainly not to other members when your attacking their viewpoint and insulting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

Read back ... the answers are all above.

By the way, attacking someones viewpoint does not equate to insulting them.

It constitutes intelligent scrutiny and it is the cornerstone of justice.

It must be a very frustrating obstacle.

I recommend more fruit.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:54 PM

Or bran. Bran is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Sovereign
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM

Some of the biggest BS I have ever seen defends political correctness on this thread.

Peace, love, dove. Light up another joint, why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM

Thanks, I would love to but my husband is a copper, makes it just a tad more difficult, ya know?

You are making me tired, so I'm going away now. Nite, Guest, whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:50 PM

The very concept of consciously contrived 'political correctness' is grossly offensive (to me) in that it implies the superiority of the perpetrator, thus by default the inferiority of the other party. However, offense has to be taken as well as given in order to exist in any real sense, otherwise it is no more than a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

This is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

I can't see anything in the least hypocritical in it. I can think of plenty of occasions where friends will say thing to each other that they would, quite correctly, take as offensive insults when used by an outsider.

"How are you doing you old bastard?" can be a perfectly friendly greeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

Personally I wouldn't equate the word 'nigger' with the word 'bastard', but, each to his own..

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

One for you Lox, Look like twisted carrots, warped leeks and bent cucumbers may soon appear on EU shop shelves as Europe's farm chief overrides opposition from leading producer countries to her marketing simplification plan.

One of the most popular jibes about EU over-regulation, where zealous Brussels bureaucrats are portrayed as wanting to set permitted sizes, lengths -- and "bendiness" -- for household fruit and vegetables, has come back to haunt the European Union.

More PC ! Peas & Carrots.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:21 PM

"Light up another joint, why don't you?"

I don't smoke. Why don't you have one for me, Sovereign?