BS: Foreign-Farce Football

Subject: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:26 AM

Not that long ago, club-football in England, and other nations, was mostly-locals in meaningful competition, but deregualtion has turned it into a greedy meaningless foreign-farce...

Poem 98 of 230: REREGULATE

One Premier world-eleven v.
    Another such company,
Or wage-caps and say half each-club's squad
    From the local-junior pod?
And, perhaps, heed the cricket-fan's call
    To convert to county-football..?

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM

Well yes; but I've been following the cricket on and off quite a bit recently and it appears the county game is going the same way- teams packed with foreign mercenaries uninterested in playing for anything except the greatest financial reward. What it does is to make sport meaningless as a shared cultural experience because teams have absolutely no connection with the counties or towns whose names they bear other than occasionally playing there. And the need to attract international players to stay competitive of course increasingly makes ticket prices unaffordable for ordinary people.

All that said, I think the choice of thread title is a little unfortunate because it's liable to attract opprobrium from all the predictable sources- perhaps a passing elf would consider changing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:43 AM

I have no interest in either Thugbrawl, or Thugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:11 AM

Why a 'foreign' farce? Why not just farce, pure and simple?

Subject: RE: BS: Farce Football
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:20 AM

Bear with me, lets just try something...if I delete the word "Foreign" in the Subject field, does the title actually change in the forum homepage?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:20 AM

OK, so it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:46 PM

With many of the best, most-expensive, players from other nations in the most-wealthy English competition, the quality IS very good now - but, not that long ago, there was quality AND meaning; nowadays, players might just as well swap shirts BEFORE kick-off.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Glasgoal
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

Quality of football maybe, quality of intelligence questionable. At the weekend David Healy MBE Fulham and Northern Ireland pretended to play a flute in front of the travelling Celtic fans during a pre-season match. Healy is a life long Rangers fan and the gesture was done to antagonise Celtic supporters as this is the high of the Sectarian Orange Order marching season in the North of Ireland.


The football authorities have made efforts to stamp out this type of behaviour.

Sectarian bigot Healy was handed an MBE by in the Queen's birthday honours earlier this year for 'services to football and the community in Northern Ireland'. Well we now see why she gave it !


I see The Daily Record reported that anti-sectarianism charity Nil By Mouth are calling for swift action against Healy. Citing the Battle of the Boyne anniversary Orange victory over Catholic King James as the basis of the exchange with fans clearly showed were Healy stands on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:26 PM

Dearie me. Will "they" now object to the English being proud of Trafalgar or Waterloo, or Americans singing "Battle of New Orleans"?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

players might just as well swap shirts BEFORE kick-off

But such, indeed, are the realities of international pro football. You want the other thing, as with folk music, you've got to dig just that little bit deeper - go out and support the small clubs & leagues that do consist of locals in meaningful competition. When we lived in Waterhouses in rural Country Durham, it was a joy to go and watch Esh Winning FC of a cold winters day, flask of Bovril in hand. And let's not forget West Auckland Town AFC who once brought home the World Cup. If it wasn't for the Folk Party, I'd love to go and watch their fixture with Marske United on Saturday. So - don't despair, human level local football is alive and well and not about to go away; so get out there and enjoy it!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,stu sans cookie
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

How long before this xenophobic thread is closed?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:37 AM

I disagree SSC - if someone prefers English club-football the way it was not that long ago, they are NOT automatically "xenophobic"; and I think it's wrong that those who take such threads off-thread, and repeatedly make personal attacks, should NOT keep succeeding in having them closed (I, for one, would have continued adding any news to the Green/Godly Gardening thread - if it had not been closed).
To IB - I agree but add/reaffirm that ALL our club-football was largely like that before deregulation, which I think occurred just over a decade ago. I think it was only 2 foreign players on the field then, and I think FIFA are discussing making it only 5 (perhaps someone can confirm this).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM

Relax! It's only a game - the football, as well as the provocation...

Regards

p.s. Did Xenophobia get through to the UEFA Cup this year?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

"But such, indeed, are the realities of international pro football. You want the other thing, as with folk music,"

Ah - for those inexperienced with WAV - a heads up.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:17 AM

I am experienced with WAV & am under no illusions about his ideas and agendas, hidden or otherwise. I think he's being surprisingly frank on this one actually, tying his colours to the mast in the name of something else he has no evident understanding of, his only interest in the matter being, as ever, one of ethnic & cultural purity. Or maybe I'm misreading his argument here, in the face of his usual outpourings?

Either way, I'm absolutely disgusted with the Higher Moral Mudcat Authorities who feel the need to close threads down in the midst of such important debate. Yesterday I started two threads concerning this nannying interference; both were deleted, and neither garnered any support from other Mudcatters, which is, in itself, somewhat puzzling.

No doubt this will be deleted too, or else the thread closed, in which case it's back to discussing cheese & Child Ballads...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:09 AM

Whatever about Child ballads, I would have thought cheese was a particularly appropriate topic in this context.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:41 AM

IB - as you sometimes do, you've accused me of your own fault: I have been (and would be again if it was reregulated) very keen on English club-football; in my blank-verse poem #1, I detailed my 7 years of junior football in Sydney - during which, as with many youngsters around the world, I keenly followed football here (The Big Match, magazines that promoted Alf Ramsey-like calm and discipline, rather than modern passion and tolerance, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,stu still sans cookie
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:24 AM

WAV The thread seems to me xenophobic. You may or may not be. I really don't know whether these repeated threads are intended to wind people up, or whether they have a serious intent

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

I just just explained, Stu, that I am genuinely interested in football (and the topics of all the other threads I've started or have posted on); and don't you think it's a bit rich to post on a DISCUSSION forum that you don't want this topic discussed at all, because it's so stongly against what you think? Football here WAS regulated - only a decade ago...was that "xenophobic"?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Glasgoal
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM

"Dearie me. Will "they" now object to the English being proud of Trafalgar or Waterloo" ?

Why Waterloo or Trafalgar Richard ? why not Dresden or Bloemfontein, events the English are famous for ! lol

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Master Baiter
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:11 PM

All English football is a farce. In the U.S. we play real football! Walksabout seems to think that there was ever some kind of English football which was the best. This proves he knows nothing. All they play there is that silly game we call soccer which isn't real football.

Soccer is just a bunch of candy-ass guys in short pants kicking a ball around and not even coordinated enough to be able to pick it up or throw it. Its a real wimpy game and barely a game at that.

American football is played by real men who beat the living hell out of each other while they execute brilliant strategies worthy of a chess master in their complexity and intelligence. In Soccer they are so busy running around like the idiots they are that they have no time for grand strategies and could not formulate one if they tried.

No physicality either in Soccer. Its just isn't a real man's game. I remember awhile back when some guy knocked another guy down there was some big stink over it. Hell, that happens every play in real football, American style!   Wimpy soccer players retire in overall good health while American footballers suffer the rest of their lives from assorted skeletal/muscular problems and some are even crippled. Just proves that Soccer isn't a real man's game.

The best thing for you to do Walksabout is to lobby your town to get a real American style football league started and then maybe getting people to attend on a local level would be no trick. I doubt though that you would have the balls to play the game yourself but surely somewhere in England there are enough real men to play.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

WAV, it seems that you are objecting, yet again, to FOREIGNERS in England and in daily life there. I think that the problem has more to do with top-league footballers being morre interested in how to make money and party, than in actually playing.

What do you mean by passion and tolerance?

Richard, nothing wrong in being proud of Waterloo, but let's not forget the major role played by the Dutch and Belgian troops, despite them being downplayed and denigrated by Wellington.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

Master Baiter, that's a bit rich, considering all the padding and stuff that American footballers wear. Ever hear of rugby? Trust me, in comparison, American Footballers are wimpy and namby-pambies.

And for the record, I don't think that WAV's threads should be closed. Just isn't right.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

Yes WAV's right, so by that token, I'm starting a kick David Beckham out of the US campaign right now. We don't need his English style and celebrity sullying the great traditions of US soccer. US soccer for US soccer players only!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Master Baiter
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM

I don't care who plays Soccer in America. From the beginnings its always been about the same sissy stuff. American kids play some but the real repect goes to football. Hell, they even let girls play in the kid's leagues which shows just what a goofy game it is!

And as for Rugby, it still isn't real football. Yeah, its better than Sissysoccer but still a long ways from being the true sport that football is! You really have to question a game where all of them get into some kind of wad they call a scrum. Looks like they are sniffing each other's sweaty buttcracks. What is that anyway? Are there some kind of points awarded for scrums?   "Best Ass Sniffer" gets a bonus point or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:55 PM

Heck, Master Baiter, while I am no fan of rugby, at least we don't need body armour over here when we do play a body contact sport. Who's teh panty-waist now?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

In some parts of the US you need body armor to be a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:16 PM

Do you have an MA in your art, MB? (but Catspaw may have a bone to pick with you)...last time I watched American football Joe Montana was playing! I'll second what RB and Volgadon said (yes, we do agree - once in a blue moon), but it does have it's moments, a bit like this forum. However, you don't really want England to be Americanis/zed anymore do you - don't you want to experience THE DIFFERENCE when you visit the Old Dart? And, yes, IE, DB should be earning a living here.

Here's my thoughts on Rugby (Union/League)...

Poem 99 of 230: ONE RUGBY?

With sixth-tackle, knock-on and touch-line hand-over -
    No scrums, line-outs, rucks or mauls;
The rest (the best of both codes) would hardly alter -
    And no splits, due to two calls.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Master Baiter
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

Why wouldn't I want England to Americanized? Seems like a good thing for you over there. When I visit places I'd prefer they were American. When you have the best, go with it. That's why you all need some help like American football.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Good choice of name.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

Um....sarcasm WAV...that's all my post was. I don't give a toss about him playing here.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

"Do you have an MA in your art, MB? (but Catspaw may have a bone to pick with you)..."

Finally - a sense of humor! Well done,WAV.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:34 PM

"Yesterday I started two threads concerning this nannying interference; both were deleted, and neither garnered any support from other Mudcatters, which is, in itself, somewhat puzzling"

Sorry, musta been deleted before I saw them....

"American football is played by real men who beat the living hell out of each other"

Yes but those sissies wear padding and armour! Real Aussie Footbrawlers don't wear that sissy stuff! Of course they only play the ball rather than the man... not legal to tackle anyone without the ball :-p

"have no time for grand strategies"

Ha! Yanks have to have half hour breaks every time the ball moves a few feet, have sissy sport drinks, massages and ad breaks before they can work out the next big strategy - Aussie Footbrawlers have to do all that on the run without stopping! And we only stop to take the broken bodies off the field! :-P




"US soccer for US soccer players"

And we'll have to stop those Yanks from trying to play Cricket....

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:46 AM

I played one season of Aussie Rules Football, before 7 years of soccer (poem 1); I think it's a good game, overall, and still watch bits of it via the Eurosport I get in England.
Back to Association Football/soccer - another problem of deregulation is that nowadays English players do not get as much big-match experience as they used to (because the top "English" clubs are full of other nationals), and this has been bad for our national team, which, in desperation, has recently been mangaged by Swedes and Italians, when all we really need to do is go back to our OWN good values and ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:56 AM

WAV

"Aussie Rules" - allegedly a traditional aboriginal activity taught to the Europeans (there's quite a bit of documentation to suppor that btw!) is not what I was talking about, but both "Rugby Union & Rugby League" - one is called "Thugby" and the other "Thugbrawl" - not sure which is which.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

Apart from PE, I never played either rugby code, FT, but, living in Sydney, where it was/is the most popular team spectator-sport, for 22 years, I've certainly watched a lot of rugby league...and, although it's still a tough game, as you say, I think it's been cleaned up a fair bit the last few years, with less head-high tackles, etc., yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:26 AM

As has union, although the new maul collapsing rules may lead to a few sore limbs in the future. A lot of the technique, use of strength, pain etc in Union occurs in the scrum, ruck and maul. Far too subtle to be noticed by our friend from across the pond.

Apparently Aussie rules is the toughest team game, and any contact sport played on what the aussies call grass is going to hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:47 AM

"I think it's been cleaned up a fair bit the last few years, with less head-high tackles, etc., yes"

Probably, but definitely more punch ups, and more suspensions for same... :-)


"any contact sport played on what the Aussies call grass is going to hurt"


... only during the decades long drought periods.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

Only an American would cite his game as being the best because it's the most violent.

We love real football because when played well it's as sublime a display of individual skill, teamwork, drama and sporting endeavour as you're likely to find - anyone remember this?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Master Baiter
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM

Walksabout doesn't care that American football is so much better. He's just wishing that his locals were all locals I think.

Walksabout-If you happen to have any real men you can send them over here but you can believe me that no real American will come to your local. Is that agreeable?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

"you can believe me that no real American will come to your local"

How can you tell if an American is real?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:18 AM

"Walksabout-If you happen to have any real men you can send them over here but you can believe me that no real American will come to your local. Is that agreeable? "

Does that make any sense at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

WAV, what do you mean by passion and tolerance?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

That's the trend here, at least, Volgadon - whereas we English were once thought of as the stiff-upper-lipped, calm, disciplined folks of the world, now the media and even politicians encourage us to take a passionate attitude toward everything, and then say tut-tut-tut at the results. And, to relate it back to football, this poem refers to a quote from the late great Alf Ramsey: "It will all end in tears"...

Poem 150 of 230: TEARS

Watching a documentary
    Of the '66 World Cup,
And the way of England's Ramsey,
    I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up."

It voiced and showed his calm way -
    He playing things down a touch;
And, as his home team won the day,
    They showed care but not too much.

Analytical Englishmen -
    Cool over the tasks that lay;
We see some of it in Henman,
    But it's not the modern way.

Sadly, passion and youthful thought
    Have become the status quo,
And social-standards and sport
    Have sunk relatively low.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:34 PM

WAV, you've showed me that poem ad nauseum. What does passion mean to you and what did you mean by tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:40 PM

To masterbater football means kicking the ball you throw it more than you kick it get in the real world and see aussie rules we dont wear all the crap you wear we play on a field twice as big as yours and we only stop 3 times a game you stop every 10 seconds

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

"WAV, you've showed me that poem ad nauseum. What does passion mean to you and what did you mean by tolerance." (Volgadon)...I mean the sort of meanings you'd find in your dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:53 AM

Strong sexual desire? Yes, I don't think we want that sort of thing on the field.

Flippancy aside, my point is that there are a lot of definitions in the dictionary. They often have different meanings. I still don't understand what tolerance has to do with playing footie.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:58 AM

Yes Volgadon, people can take a passionate (stong emotion/desire) or calm attitude toward anything...they can calmly wait for a bus or they can smash the perspex, they can calmly cue and wait for a football match or they can crush, etc; Alf Ramsey was largely an old-school English winner who encouraged calm and discipline NOT passion and tolerence. In England, instead of employing more-and-more foreigners to effectively compete for us, we should be going back to such old-school values and REGULATIONS.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:51 AM

Ah, so you mean flying into a frenzy of temper tantrums, yes we don't need that kind of passion, but what do you think about caring deeply and strongly about something, or do we all have to look bored.
You still haven't explained where tolerance fits in.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Johnny Foreigner
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

So once again it all comes down to ethnic / cultural stereotyping...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-14.html Here is some foreign-farcical influence that any team could do with.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

The foreign free-market football farce has kicked off again, an Italian is still being payed a fortune to tell our national team how to play/compete for us, and I still like it the meaningful REGULATED way it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

wav,australian fooball, is GAA Irish Football,a good example, of lack of football purity.
however, football did have more meaning,when Huddersfield Town,really did mean players from that area.
from am aesthetic point of view,if I want to watch skilful football,I would watch Arsenal,and their foreign players.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:12 AM

Yes, CB, the quality now is very good, as it's a very free market and the English league is rich with punters' money for the top most-highly-payed players from around the world. But, before deregulation, the quality was good and their was a LOT more meaning. In the 60s, my parents knew the area of Manchester where most (not all) of the players grew up in. So when Manchester played Liverpool or Sunderland, e.g., there was real meaning - fans were supporting men schooled in their own town/city. To me, that was a far better way, and I've lost interest in who's winning these free-market days.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:39 AM

walkabout,that is one of the great things about watching hurling and gaelic football,they are all local people playing.Iam sure youdont mind that its Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:00 AM

As I said somewhere above, WAV, local football still thrives, much as does local music, in exactly the way you say it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM

In Aus. there was/is a programme called Wide World of Sports, which, occasionally would show some of those two - it seems to me, hurling requires a very stong nerve indeed, and how more don't get injured from ball or stick baffles me; also enjoyed a bit of gaelic football, and a combo. game when the Irish take on Australian rules footballers...I presume it still happens..? However, see even less of these sports now that I'm back in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: kendall
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:18 AM

Football. A game in which a gang of glandular cases engage seriously in some sort of silly ball kicking thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM

I think it's perhaps the best team-sport (and tennis the best individual-sport), Kendall - it's the new "system" (at the game's highest level here, IB) that I'm peeved about.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

Don't be peeved; rejoice in the human level of things that still exist, and still thrive, heartily & with gusto! This is where the real meat of the thing lies, surely? As with music, then so with sport; a matter of culture & love rather than money & status...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:33 AM

Im manufacturing mess-rooms, I've heard folks say similar to you, IB - if you want to see a good game of football, go and watch the local-juniors; but, not that long ago, those kids had much more hope of one day playing for their nearest professional club, for a living - now they see those posts (if you'll pardon the pun!) filled, almost wall-to-wall, with foreigners, and they read flyers saying that, if they complain, they'll be shown "the red card" for racism. A ridiculous state of affairs, in my opinion, that is NOT good for our national team, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:20 AM

I'm not talking about junior football - rather small / local (human?) league football, which is to say the original thing, played on grey days & watched by grey people. Whatever the aspirations of juniors might be in any field of life, it is only realistic that the wealth & celebrity status of big league & international professional football exists only for a tiny minority of especially talented players, with most of them going to play for local sides, of which we are particularly well served.

Like it or not big league football exists on an international level, as does most big league culture in general; this is an inevitable process of cultural internationalism, rather than globalisation per se, and does not reflect local interests other than what locals want to see as consumers, rather than active participants. It's also about big money & the best players, regardless of where they're from.

Two video clips by way of illustration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D5AfX4YUag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8TbX8zrYI

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:34 AM

"with most of them going to play for local sides, of which we are particularly well served" (IB)...that's how it was before deregualion...and when fans say to me "it won't go back - there's too much money in it now", I say "vote with your feet" (if you'll pardon antother pun), and force the FA to REREGLULATE.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:43 AM

E.g: Arsenal just beat Newcastle convincingly (3:0), but whether men trained around Arsenal are better at football than men trained around Newcastle WE KNOW NOT - because deregulation HAS turned out game into a greedy meaningless foreign farce...REREGULATE (as above)!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

"Our club football competition should be regulated back to the way it was - mostly-locals in MEANINGFUL competition; and clubs, including Newcastle United, should be owned by local councils." (This, from me, was read out, last night, on the interactive segment of our local ITV news, regarding the troubles at NU.)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:47 AM

Let's hope all this overdue talk of regulationism, due to the credit crunch, spreads to our league football as well - then we will again have MEANING as well as quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:53 AM

See the new English season off to the ususal start with referees handing goals to Manchester United, why is this allowed year after year ?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

The name itself is something of a misnomer now, JU: as I suggested above, not that long ago the majority of the team would have been from thereabouts - now, sadly, players might just as well change shirts BERORE kick-off, whatever the refereeing which I (put off by deregulation) can't really comment on.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:04 PM

Well call me old fashioned, but I think its high time the results of football matches were decided in the good old English fashioned way.

There should be a panel of judges including Andrew Lloyd Webber, Len Goodman and Simon Cowell. the teams should each get ten minutes and be judged strictly on their entertainment value, star quality and and sex appeal.

As for front of goal celebrations - no one minds a manly squeeze of the bottom, and kiss on both cheeks and discreet fondling - but I agree with WAV and Alf Ramsey on this one - no French kissing and appliances that use batteries are right out.

A big mistake, in my opinion, was the introduction of running water in the toilets and the closure of pie stall with really disgusting cups of tea inside football grounds. Also things were much better when just one policeman policed the whole match - mostly looking the other way.

The footballers themselves get away with murder. When was the last time you saw a footballer wearing a pair of boots with a big shiney toe cap and a lethal set of studs. You could do some real damage with those buggers and it kept all these bloody foreigners out.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:48 AM

...frankly, I don't know whose eaten all the pies (WLD) but it's not all over as far as proper meaningful toe-capless competition goes...more-and-more will be talking, over a pie a tea or an ale, of the reregulation of football, along with other elements of the "free-market economy." (And may I refer you back to the opening post/poem - "REREGULATE".)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

You are correct WLD. I just looked it up on the web. Not that I didn't believe you. That policeman was called Tarique Ghaffur.Check yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM

well that's what we need! vicious sliding tackles, great big boots with huge lethal studs, blind referees and shin guards, woolly socks, and goalkeepers that wear caps, and above all spectators that stand up and cheer, wear caps and drink a lot before the match and wee on each other.

if that doesn't keep the continentals out - nowt will.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:05 AM

Hey, did the manager of Manchester United ever get charged when a highway patrol found him on the hard shoulder with his trousers undone ?

It was a few years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:46 AM

Sir Alex Ferguson ......?

Justin, I can't recollect the incident. Could happen to anyone though.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Found it. It occurred in 1999, I recall in was on the television news. I was in London at the time. He was driving on a motorway hard shoulder, he had his trousers undone. He said he had severe diarrhoea and needed to reach a toilet. The let him off, it didn't stick ! Advised to carry Bisto in the car.

WLD, not so sure it could happen to anyone. I keep my pants up while driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

Typical Manchester Bloody United - always getting the decisions going their way.

If that had been Our Lord Martin O'Neill (Praise be his name) he would have got 100 hours community service at St. Andrews teaching Blues fans how not to dribble (Bov down their fronts).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

...will he ever manage Scotland..?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,stigweard with cookie trouble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

That last guest was me!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:35 AM

To Stigweard with cookie trouble - me too, maybe...the newly amended myspace keeps crumbling on me...and oh for olde regulated English club football, to boot...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Stu
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 AM

My post was deleted - was that really necessary seeing as I pointed out it was me with cookie problems (due to a system update)?

What I said was Martin O'Neill is Irish, and as long as he sticks with Aston Villa and doesn't go to manage anyone else then that's fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

...will he ever manage Ireland..?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:52 PM

I just heard how, Sven, the Swede, planned on getting foreign players, playing in the newly deregulated English premier league, to play for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:43 AM

...and I just heard Sepp Blatter, head of FIFA, questioning all the foreign ownership of football clubs now, and how competitions are becoming more-and-more about money and less-and-less about culture, society, spirit, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:55 AM

An example of another foreign farce (or is it a farcical foreigner), from your favourite source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Mussabini

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Master Baiter
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:58 AM

I found the following article, a letter to a parliamentary official, about "Sir Alf R." who I assume to be ?????? Perhaps catspaw49 wasn't kidding about the dog molesting as you see. Locations and date make it probable. Surprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time.



Dear Lord Richland:

        I am a board certified criminal prosecutor In Ipswich with over 12 years experience and approximately 150 trials to my credit. I write in support of Rule of Law #744 and in order to advocate for the necessity of this new law, I will start briefly by explaining one such case I have handled recently in this jurisdiction.

        In late 1964, I prosecuted the case of QB v. Sir Alf R., Circuit Case Number 2005-CF-3027. Sir R. had been charged by law enforcement with Felony Animal Cruelty, though the charge if available should have been Bestiality or Sexual Activity Involving an Animal. I will not go into the disgusting facts of the case other than to say Sir Alf R. was having sexual relations with his male dog, an English Cocker Spaniel. The complainant in the case called the police when she observed Sir R. fondling the dog. I will leave off further discussion by simply stating that in subsequent discussions with law enforcement, Sir Alf R. spoke freely about his regular sexual activities with his dog and said he would take the dog for a walk prior to sex to "prevent fecal impact." I have attached a copy of the probable cause (with the complainant's name omitted) so the facts can speak for themselves. As you can see, law enforcement incorrectly advised Sir Alf R. that they were investigating bestiality and that "it was a felony crime."

        We did our best to pursue the case on the charge of Animal Cruelty but this charge was not the best vehicle to properly address the crimes of nature committed by this Defendant. On the charge of Felony Animal Cruelty, the prosecution is required to prove a defendant intentionally committed an act against an animal which resulted in the cruel death or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering. For Misdemeanor Animal Cruelty, the prosecution must show the person has caused the animal to be overworked, deprived of sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, kills or carries any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner. I can easily envision such a case of Bestiality being charged as Animal Cruelty before the trier of fact, be it a judge or a jury, and the Defense expert veterinarian testifying that although he finds "the Defendant's behavior shocking and disgusting, the animal was unharmed and otherwise well cared for." If such a case ever made it to trial, the resulting acquittal would be an easy lesson for the prosecutor to learn.

        Other than the tenuous charge of Animal Cruelty, the only other means of addressing this crime of nature would be as a questionable misdemeanor offense under Stat. Section 755.01 which adopts the Common Law of England. Like most civilized nations, our legal forbearers understandably saw fit to address bestiality in the criminal courts. If this theory of the law were pursued, prosecutors would be left to attempt to utilize ancient English Law to address this criminal conduct. Such a prosecutor would clearly have an uphill battle. Although case law provides for application of the Common Law of England in some situations, I can envision much mention of our Declaration of Independence and the fact that "we make our own laws here" during pretrial motion arguments. A resulting dismissal of the charges would be understandable under this scenario.

        What we often hear in the legal realm is that "if the Parliament wanted something to be a crime then they would have passed a law against it." Litigants can rarely argue that the failure to pass a law was merely a timing or funding issue or that it would have been passed if we did not have financial troubles. If the Parliament does anything, it should use a small portion of its time to pass one of the most unanimously uncontested laws in recent history. There cannot possibly be any rational opponent of this bill.

        It is unseemly that a person can knowingly sexually violate any animal of their choice and this does not, by itself, seem to be against the law without some type of creative and possibly tenuous prosecution. The most important consideration for the Committee to address, however, is the impact this crime of nature could have on humans.

        The clear status of our law at this point is that Parliament has not prohibited bestiality. Bestiality is currently legal. As shocking as this is for the public to learn when such cases come to light, it would be even more shocking for the public to discover that a proposed bill was actually before this PArliamentary Justice Committee and the Committee failed to take any action to move this forward.   Acting on such an uncontested issue should use minimal time and resources compared to the many other issues that remain contested or debatable before you.

                                                                Respectfully,

                                                                Michael J. Bauer
       Ipswich Solicitor
       December, 1966

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Justin U
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM

Do you think it would be possible for European football officals to just present Manchester United with the cup now ?

They played tonight and their first TWO GOALS were clearly offside and the referee and linesman allowed them !

This seems to be the norm for united, we see it every weekend, so why not Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:04 AM

I agree the two Berbatov goals were off side, and Rooney`s disallowed effort was onside, in all cases the Belgian officials were wrong, it is time TV evidence was used, there has been far too many mistakes,
it works well in Rugby Union

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM

I can't comment on that as I didn't watch - I used to be very keen on our club-football before deregulation, when it was mostly-locals against mostly-locals in MEANINGFUL competion; so, mind if I ask, how many players on the field were ex-local-juniors? Or could they have just as well swapped shirts BEFORE the "match"?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:01 AM

This is, of course, just more racist bollocks, Wavy. Though, of course, other more astute commentators have picked up on it, such as Here.

Otherwise, you want local football, go support your local club.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:51 PM

It's meaningful regulated football verses deregulated football NOT "racist bullocks" (IB - who on the "England's National Musical-Instrument" thread repeatedly referred to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute").

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Insane Beard,Call it whatever you like but I laughed my head off, very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

Here is a traditional English folk song, meant to be accompanied on Engrish Frute.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nebe1zuEtbc&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

You are dead right Insane Beard. I agree with you. Two sectarian remarks in six months and still no action has been been taken.

Hear it for yourself.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEoj6qJZ7w

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:40 PM

Hey Wavyracistasshole......What the hell is "meaningful" ferchrissakes? Its a fuckin' game numbnuts! Regulated or not, its a game and your hero is just another player......although I understand he paid your Mumsy twice the going rate for a b-j!   Contrary to what you may have heard, sport is not always a paradigm for life.

In all seriousness....You're a flat-out racist of the worst type who hides behind little structured speeches which only show how far gone you really are. You need to wake up and smell the toast burning. I know that for you that may not be easy, but remember, your mother is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:14 AM

It's meaningful regulated football verses deregulated football NOT "racist bullocks" (IB - who on the "England's National Musical-Instrument" thread repeatedly referred to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute").

The word is bollocks, Wavy - racist bullocks would imply something very different indeed (consider this an essential lesson in vernacular English usage that'll get you far with your repatriation). Otherwise wind in your neck, and enjoy yourself for once in your life - so sit back & enjoy the inspirational antics of The Amazing Mr Woo then, if really is meaningful football you're looking for, check out This.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM

Sorry for the spelling IB - who once had a long argument on Mudcat with someone else about such pedantics - but I genuinely prefer our club football the way it was before deregualtion: mostly locals competing against mostly locals (the way our county cricket still is, touch wood!).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

Sorry for the spelling IB - who once had a long argument on Mudcat with someone else about such pedantics

Not pedantry in this case, Wavy - more a matter of disambiguation arising from cultural usage. Being a naturalised Australian it's natural for you to use bullock, as you do from time to time when you allow your native vernacular to shine through in all its glory.

but I genuinely prefer our club football the way it was before deregualtion: mostly locals competing against mostly locals (the way our county cricket still is, touch wood!).

Proper football, like proper music, exists at a more human level; hence the link to the Northern League where you find teams such as West Allotment in the first division. Instead of wasting time ranting on about stuff you'll never change, get out there and support your local side which will be made up of locals. And whilst you're on, join your local morris side, which will be made up of locals too. Life's too short for whinging, Wavy - especially when there's so much out there to be enjoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

IB - It is true that I was "naturalised" in a formal ceremony in Aus. - but, as said in verse , I was too young to declare allegiance to the monarchy - fittingly, because, as an adult, I'm very much against monarchism and pleased that the Nepalese saw the light this year and ended theirs.
And, remember, the Northern League way that we both seem to like was, not that long ago, pretty much the national way also - in terms of mostly locals, i.e.
I think I'll continue to enjoy watching, rather than participating, in our folk dancing, for the time being..?...I think you said you've played for dance, do you dance also?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:54 PM

Er Wav; you refer to an era when our football was not deregulated. As far as I know, prior to a brief period in the eighties when EUFA attempted to impose quotas on foreign players playing for clubs (in European competitions only) there have never been regulations about the number of foreign players in English teams. The EUFA rule was sailing very close to the wind in terms of EU legislation on restraint of trade, and was quietly dropped. Which era are you referring to as 'before deregulation'?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

Wav, it is you who have said that when people lose their own good culture, society suffers. Society is suffering, you refuse to participate in your own good culture by dancing, yet dictate to others how to dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

Oh, and another thing, you haven't the foggiest about Nepal. It isn't that they 'saw the light' per se, but mostly due to the oppressive and dictatorial reign of the last king. People got sick of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Tim - thanks...I found a table showing how the percentage of English players was far higher in the early 90s than now, which I thought was due to a quota not choice, but, as you suggest, I can't find any such thing, and may have to change the title of my above poem to "Regulate" - which, as it turns out, suggests similar to what FIFA are now proposing (here
).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM

...although there was a salary-cap regulation until the early 60s.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:27 PM

You really don't understand much about football, do you WAV? FIFA as a body have proposed nothing of the sort you suggest; perhaps you should read the article you cite more carefully and critically. Sepp Blatter, the President of FIFA has suggested a form of quota, but in order for this to come into effect it would have to be voted for and passed the the FIFA council, made up of representatives from all over the world. Can you suggest why, for example, the many African, Eastern European and South/Central American countries who make up the majority of council seats would vote for a proposal that denies their poorly paid players full access to the most lucrative league in world football? Blatter is well known for mischievously floating this kind of idea, usually for his own political ends. (Such ends currently involve trying to bring the powerful clubs of Europe to heel under the FIFA banner). He has no authority to change anything without the approval of the FIFA council; and in the old phrase, turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Any such rule change would also have to be endorsed by UEFA for European competitions, and they can't because of EU law on mobility of labour and restraint of trade. (See above)Please try to confine your inane spoutings to things you know something about. Aussie Rules, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

Why Tim, don't you know he's a born expert? I mean he keeps boasting that he was born on the day Ramsey did some damn thing which I think he sees as being born with a golden turd up his ass or something.

Remember too that Sir Alf Ramsey had his hat blown by Wavy's Mommy on tha day as well.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

"You really don't understand much about football, do you WAV? FIFA as a body have proposed nothing of the sort you suggest; perhaps you should read the article you cite more carefully and critically. Sepp Blatter, the President of FIFA has suggested a form of quota, but in order for this to come into effect it would have to be voted for and passed the the FIFA council, made up of representatives from all over the world. Can you suggest why, for example, the many African, Eastern European and South/Central American countries who make up the majority of council seats would vote for a proposal that denies their poorly paid players full access to the most lucrative league in world football? Blatter is well known for mischievously floating this kind of idea, usually for his own political ends. (Such ends currently involve trying to bring the powerful clubs of Europe to heel under the FIFA banner). He has no authority to change anything without the approval of the FIFA council; and in the old phrase, turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Any such rule change would also have to be endorsed by UEFA for European competitions, and they can't because of EU law on mobility of labour and restraint of trade. (See above)Please try to confine your inane spoutings to things you know something about. Aussie Rules, perhaps?" (Tim)...in other words, I typed FIFA instead of Sepp Blatter. And what if more-and-more fans turn against free-market-football, are you sure things can't change?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

No, not in other words, you dipstick. The levels of authority between a full decision of the FIFA council and a casual and possibly malicious remark from a known agitator like Blatter differ so widely as to be alsmost unrelated. Once again; your alleged academic background is letting you down; you should really be able to distinguish between different sources of information in terms of reliability and validity. We seem to have discovered yet another of your areas of monumental ignorance, this time football.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

I typed "proposal", above, not "full decision", Tim; but I certainly do hope it goes that way, as I have little interest in one wealthy world eleven playing against another.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

as I have little interest in one wealthy world eleven playing against another.

And yet you continue to obsess over it. Wavy - wind in your fecking neck & check out The Northern League and start enjoying life for what it is instead of mithering on about how you want it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

Alright; a proposal by the FIFA council. Now, dipstick; your point is? You're still an ignoramus when it comes to football. It's part of my culture, but clearly not part of yours.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

Well lads to add further fuel to this Thread I can well remember when I was in England from 1957 until 1968, I was told on numerous occasions that foreign footballers would last no time in English football.
I was informed that they would not be able to stand up to the rough and tumble of the English game that the heavy grounds would find them out, the just "wouldn`t like it up them".

Along came a little Argentine wizard around the early 1970s, a footballer supreme, Ossie Ardiles, he made a complete mockery of all of those forecasts, he is still revered to this day by the Spurs fans and of course he was followed by others from sunny Spain and Italy, and great players from Holland, they all certainly brightened up the English game and are still doing so.

I enjoy`skillful football, long may the foreign footballers continue to to brighten up a long cold winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM

WAV says 'I have little interest in one wealthy world eleven playing against another.'
Fine; if you have no interest, don't watch. The problem with you, WAV, is you believe all your preferences and obsessions are the one true path for the rest of us, and that we should immediately do as you say. That, my strange little friend, is not a rational view of the world.
ard mhacha; hear, hear; and don't forget Ricky Villa, as well!
WAV; you won't understand this, as you weren't here in the 70s as you were busy being Australian at the time. Incidentally, it's a myth that all foreign footballers earn huge amounts of money; there are lots of them playing in the lower leagues, including at the club I have supported for nearly 50 years. They earn a living, but not huge sums. Earn a living...there's something you could try, WAV, before you start telling us working stiffs how to live our lives!
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

"as I have little interest in one wealthy world eleven playing against another." (me)..."And yet you continue to obsess over it. Wavy - wind in your fecking neck & check out The Northern League and start enjoying life for what it is instead of mithering on about how you want it to be." (IB - no need for IBy!)...If you disagree with say New Labour on something, e.g., you do do something!, here on Mudcat, e.g.; and so, too, many other posts are in disagreement with some matter.

"Along came a little Argentine wizard around the early 1970s, a footballer supreme, Ossie Ardiles, he made a complete mockery of all of those forecasts, he is still revered to this day by the Spurs fans and of course he was followed by others from sunny Spain and Italy, and great players from Holland, they all certainly brightened up the English game and are still doing so.
I enjoy`skillful football, long may the foreign footballers continue to to brighten up a long cold winter." (Ard)...I too remember that, despite Tim's remarks, and his fellow countryman, Ricky Villa - two of only a few foreign players at that time. And I agree that the quality now is high - but before we had quality AND the meaning that comes with mostly locals playing mostly locals (and, in those days Tim, I was a keen follower, whilst playing juniors in Aus., of English football.)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

Australians playing an English game; surely you were ashamed to take part WAV? Oh, and WAV; you were a small boy at the time, in a country that knows shit about Association Football, so I think what we are talking about here might be a 'recovered memory' (look it up), i.e. you have convinced yourself you remember watching Ardiles and Villa.
You really don't have a clue about what being English is nowadays, do you WAV? The average supporter of an English club today doesn't give two hoots whether the players were from England, Scotland, France or bleedin' Timbuktu as long as they play for the team and the team does well. It's only the out-and-out racists who think that nationality matters; oh, I forgot, you are one, aren't you?
Instead of spending time spouting crap on here, why not go out and get a job like most other immigrants do?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

More hot-headed false and defamatory rubbish - calm down and think again about Associatin Football international competitions, terminology, etc., Tim.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Well if its not racism, all I can say is - why don't you start another thread explaining what all these idiotic threads are about?

Englands national instrument, English footballers, English folkmusic not having chords.....

just what is the zeitgeist behind all this bollocks?

I've always lived in England. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

At what point are we attacking the fabric of the English way of life.....eating French onion soup, singing Irish rebel ballads, singing along with an Elvis impersonator, drinking Scotch whisky, ....?

Seriously, in your heart of hearts, isn't this just one daft load of cobblers after another?

England does mean a lot to those of us, who consider ourselves patriots. Its the nation our fathers fought for. Being English is visceral - its there in your guts. Even the debased version of patriotism like Thatcher promulgated couldn't shake our pride in our nation.

The sort of patriotism you seem to advocate is a shallow thing - tokens, 'cultural' practices, traditions that leave most of us cold.....we can take 'em or leave 'em. And mostly we leave 'em to the terminally 'short of something to think about'.

Meantime let me assure you, no one feels threatened by the presence of foreign football players. We are more secure in our sense of belonging than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

Fair play to you WLD, I don`t want to be accused of racialism so my apologies to the many Africans and all of the European mainland footballers, some great players in this lot.
In Ireland, from our Rugby became professional, we also have numerous foreign players who have also added greatly to our rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

WAV; you don't know me at all; how dare you accuse me of being hotheaded? I've tried reasoned argument, logic, support, persuasion, academic critique, humour, guidance and the offer of knowledge. None of these produce any sort of sensible response from you, as many others on this list have told you. Don't you dare patronise me by telling me that what I have posted is false and defamatory (a form of words you repeat constantly, but are wholly unable to justify.) By any reasonable definition you are both a racist and a sexist, based on your own writing here and elsewhere. Judging by your seeming inability to learn from observation, reflection, active experimentation or abstract conceptualisation you are also stupid, in the true, non-perjorative sense of the word. You have no concept of what being English is, as evidenced by WLD's excellent post above, and have no real interest in learning about England and its real culture. You have been asked on numerous occasions to define clearly what you mean by 'English' and Good English Culture', and you have ducked the question every single time. This also makes you an intellectual and moral coward, willing to spout provocative rubbish without a shred of evidence or academic credibility to back it up. This is neither false nor defamatory, and can all be evidenced by reading your posts here and your utterly discredited websites.
To football; I have forgotten more about 'Associatin' (sic) Football in England than you, an Australian will ever know, having been steeped in the game by a family full of professional sports players, and an active player, shareholder and supporter of football for most of my life. Don't presume to lecture me about the rules and international competitions; see my posts above which reveal to all how bereft of knowledge you really are about how the game is run.
Finally; the truth about you WAV, the truth you can't handle; by your own accounts, you're a failure as a sportsman, you're a failure in relationships, you're a failure in your career, you're a failure in your attempts to integrate yourself into an alien culture (English), you're a failure as a musician, you're a failure as a singer, you're a failure as a poet. You're angry at the world for giving you these hard knocks, and lash out at anything that looks like an easy target; for example, immigrants who make a better life than you have, singers and players of songs that are too difficult for you to play, employers who give jobs to foreigners and not to you, people who earn a good living by being better than you at sports, women who play sports better than you. All of this to deflect from the fact that you can't accept that your record of multiple and abject failure might be at least partly your fault.
My country is important to me, WAV; I have lived in England all of my life, absorbing its many cultural messages, and revelling in the many wonderful influences that our mongrel race absorbs. I have never met anyone English with as narrow a view of England as you have. Most English people take a balanced and objective view of what it is to be English; you, WAV, are about as unbalanced as it gets. You have no respect on this board, and are unlikely to get any until you start responding to fair questions with proper, reasoned answers.
Grow up. Learn. Become good at something, preferably something you enjoy. Maybe then the world (and particularly modern England) won't seem like such a hostile place.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:48 PM

very personal attack mandotim. In truth what do we know about this guy's relationships. i don't know if he's a failure or a success, and I wouldn't claim to be a howling success myself at anything.

I just wish, he'd stop involving one's love of one's country with some sort of aggressive cultural imperialism. And constantly picking the speck out of his neighbours eye. the whole point about being English is that we're a fairly inclusive gang.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM

All completely based on his previous posts, WLD. I've tried reasoning with this idiot ad nauseam, it doesn't work; he doesn't recognise reason, help when offered, logical reasoning or any other form of rational discourse. I'm fed up, and felt it was time someone said what lots of people (catspaw aside, who says it publicly all the time) have been saying in PMs for months. Personal attack yes, and not normally in my nature to do it;but I don't want a fool like WAV having an influence on the culture and music I care about; evil happens when good men do nothing, and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

"pride in our nation" (WLD)...do you mean when the tennis or fooball is on - GB or England?...

"...A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union forEngland/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for England/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!" (here).

"in a country that knows shit about Association Football" (Tim)...do you, "fed up" or not, stand by that - given all the criticisms you made of me?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:04 PM

Stand by what? Try to write intelligibly, or not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM

Lets put it this way. I wouldn't stop being proud of my nation just because we lose a penalty shoot out, or cos of Tim Henman's imperfect lobs.

malc Stent, a Brummy folksinger probably got nearer to it than most - when he said about the folkscene ....most people involved are 'good eggs.'

I think you could extend that to most streets in England. Most of the people are 'good eggs'. Yes we produce the odd Yorkshire Ripper and Harold Shipman and Fred West, but by and large we make the best of this overcrowded little corner of the world, and do our best with what comes our way.

There are some plumb ugly parts of England, but the nice bits make up for them.

I wouldn't presume to speak for Irish, Scots or Welsh people. but yes I feel good when I see or hear of one of them doing well. They aren't us, but they're from down our street - our closest neighbours, and we understand each other better than anyone else.

Notice I'm not saying that to understand all is to forgive all. In the past we've behaved abominably to each other - at other times like in WW2 - we've pulled together and achieved together.

No confusion WAV. But its not simplistic. The people I was descended from were Irish catholics from Dublin on one side and Irish gypsies on the other. Yet I am English - so were my parents, and two of my grandparents. If you're English you don't need to keep coming up with credentials, and proofs of purchase that you've bought in to us lot.

It reminds me a little of American born poet, TS Eliot; who fancied himself as an Englishman and went about doing stuff no English person would ever think of - raising his hat to the soldiers changing the guard outside Buckingham Palace, going to a fancy dress party dressed as DR Crippen, who had recently been hanged (...imagine if you went as Peter Sutcliff!); at the time of Thompson Bywaters case, he wrote to the papers insisting that poor Mrs Thompson should be hanged (which of course she was) in the event.

Stop defining....just go with the flow.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

No, WLD - as "the flow" is yet more Americansiation/globalisation, and I love the world being multicultural and England's part therein.
A lot of the nicknames of our clubs derive from what was LOCAL, yes?...A bit like a lot of our E. trads, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 03:50 PM

And there IS, I've just learned, more meaning in the Scilly Isles league: there are only 2 teams in it - but at least it's still locals against locals.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 03:54 PM

Just watch the programme, WAV - Top Gear's up next, featuring that great Welsh singer Tom Jones... Cornish lobsters eh? Been a while...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: s&r
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM

Most people here most of the time don't criticize you WAV.

They just don't accept that your half baked ideas about anything have any merit

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:51 AM

A lot of his ideas are just completely baked, nothing halfway about them. Bigotry is like that............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

I haven't posted any "bigotry" Spaw - it's the likes of you, hiding behind your nickname, who's posted the likes of "white boy".

IB – great Welsh singers such as Harry Seacombe never sung in phoney American accents. And, again, I must stress the difference here between being anti-American and anti-Americanistion - we should all love our world being multicultural.

And there has been one small step in a positive direction on the matter of this thread - I heard last night on the news that the FA here are trying to insist that at least 4 of the fielded players spent at least 3 years at the club, before turning 21. Sepp Blatter would go further, and I would go much further, of course, but it's better than nothing - although the "Premier Leaugue" clubs are expexted to fight it in court.

As I've said here, to have reasonably fair competition, we need stong REGULATIONS – NOT free markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:45 AM

Congratulations to Whitley Bay for winning the F.A. Vase - which DOES mean something as it's still men trained here playing men trained there.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:36 AM

harry secombe,is the correct spelling.
I will watch Barcelona and Manchester United because I am likely to see good skill.
That is why I enjoy the music of John Kirkpatrick because he is a skilled performer,not because he is English.
WAv,I detest all the histrionics in soccer.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:17 AM

True that the skill-level is high, CB; but, not that long ago, there was also a high level of meaning in premier-league football.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Stu
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:09 AM

There would have been a higher level of meaning if the Villa would have qualified for the Champions League this year, but in the end we just got burnt out.

Roll on next season.

Up the Villa! Right up the Blues!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:36 AM

There is still a high level of meaning in Premier League football WAV. Hundreds of thousands of people turn up to celebrate that meaning every week of the season. Because you don't see the meaning, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Try getting down from your usual xenophobic hobby-horse and touring around the various fan message boards for Premier League clubs. Read the passionate outpourings in support of their clubs, and then revisit your argument about lack of meaning.
Tim
P.S. Please note that I managed to write eight lines and only used a single (appropriate) hyphen. Try it, you might enjoy it!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:26 AM

"Read the passionate outpourings" (MT)...

Poem 150 of 230: TEARS

Watching a documentary
    Of the '66 World Cup,
And the way of England's Ramsey,
    I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up."

It voiced and showed his calm way -
    He playing things down a touch;
And, as his home team won the day,
    They showed care but not too much.

Analytical Englishmen -
    Cool over the tasks that lay;
We see some of it in Henman,
    But it's not the modern way.

Sadly, passion and youthful thought
    Have become the status quo,
And social-standards and sport
    Have sunk relatively low.

From http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
Or http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:34 AM

Let me get this clear; you claim that sport has lost meaning, and your solution is taking the passion out of sport, Sport?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:56 AM

Take, e.g., Bobby Charlton, Bjorn Borg or Roger Federer, Tim: most of the time they were/are in a calm calculating mood - a mood much more common in England, e.g., over the centuries...stiff upper lip, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:16 AM

George Best, John MacEnroe, Muhammad Ali, Fred Trueman, Ian Botham, Mike Hailwood, Bryan Robson, Jack Charlton, Alan Ball, Nobby Stiles... I could come up with a list of thousands, given time. None of them especially calm characters, but all highly successful. Your point is?
Evidence please for your ridiculous statement 'a calm calculating mood - a mood much more common in England, e.g., over the centuries...stiff upper lip, etc. '. Chapter and verse, a full analysis of the alleged national psyche over the centuries, reputable sources only, not the usual BNP inspired rubbish. Otherwise we'll just have to assume you're off on one of your fantasies about some kind of identifiable English temperament.
Grammar corner; what is the 'e.g.' for? What is the phrase 'over the centuries' an example of?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:00 PM

I'm an English nationalist - I don't like imperialism, Tim; and, with that, we do need to re-stiffen our upper lips.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: s&r
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:08 PM

While you stick to your verse WAV you are harmless enough. Your tendency to write xenophobic little Englander posts is sadly rearing its head again

in sadness

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:23 AM

Please answer the question; where is your evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:44 AM

I'm an English nationalist

An English Nationalist and Naturalised Australian who resolutely refuses to assimilate himself into the wondrous realities our Good Own English Culture...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 09 - 04:32 AM

While we're at it; what did 'Imperialism' have to do with my request for evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:08 AM

S. - I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I keep fit with lawn tennis, I enjoy pottages, I attend folk clubs and festivals (as you know, first hand), my own repertoire of songs and hymns is English or, at least, leans very much that way...
T. - try and watch that documentary of the '66 world cup.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:18 AM

I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I keep fit with lawn tennis, I enjoy pottages, I attend folk clubs and festivals (as you know, first hand), my own repertoire of songs and hymns is English or, at least, leans very much that way...

I've never read from the anthology of English Verse, never played lawn tennis, don't even know what a pottage is, and my repertoire of songs is drawn as much from the English speaking folk song traditions of America, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, Northumberland etc. as it is from England. I only sing hymns when I attend Roman Catholic Mass with my Welsh-born English wife, where I might also sing Gelineau Psalm Tones and Plain Song if I'm lucky. And to what extent are Folk Clubs and Folk Festivals (as American imports) uniquely English I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:26 AM

Still waiting for the evidence of this alleged heterogenous, phlegmatic national attitude WAV. Cat got your tongue?
Why should I watch the documentary WAV? I watched three games of that World Cup live (as in 'at the ground'), including England v Mexico at Wembley, and I saw every other game on TV at the time. In academic terms, this is called a 'Primary Source', unfiltered by a documentary maker or a producer trying to make some sort of point.
Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to support your ridiculous assertion about national attitude with some equally high-quality evidence.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:54 AM

Frankly, Tim, I can't even say I was in nappies then - I was born about 2 hours before the kick-off of the final but, as suggested, I have watched a documentory on the event.

"Now...evidence" (Tim)...

From O Jesus I have promised (in my repertoire of English hymns, above link)

"O let me hear thee speaking
In accents clear and still,
Above the storms of passion,
The murmurs of self-will;" (words by Bode; music by Mann)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:07 AM

So let me get this straight; you are citing a hymn author (Bode) as evidence to support a sociological/psychological/geopolitical assertion about national psyche? Now you got that bit of silliness out of your system, how about going to your local library and doing some proper research? I assume you're still not working, so you have the time. I'll engage with you again when you produce something credible, but not before.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:15 AM

I missed Northumberland's secession from England. When did it happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:44 AM

It's a Northumbrian thing, Terry - but only part of an increasingly diverse British identity. Though going HERE I notice to my delight that even though I now live in windswept wilds of the Lancastrian Fylde, back in 800 this was part of Northumbria too...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:50 AM

I knew that, of course, but am always perplexed as to why people in some parts of the country like to deny a long established geo-political 'fact.' I suspect its to wash their hands of what they believe to be English misdemeanors in the past. In other words, I'm not English, I'm (insert pseudo nationality), so don't plame me, guv.

But let's not pursue it - I don't want to be accused of thread drift..........

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 May 09 - 03:34 AM

Geo-political facts are forever mutable, Terry. For instance, I'm rather proud of the fact of my Northumbrian birth as back in 1961 North Shields was indeed part of Northumberland, rather than North Tyneside or wherever it is these days. As an Irish-Northumbrian-Jew brought up with closer links to Scotland (as is invariably the case in Northumberland) I've never been too sold on the idea of Englishness, let alone WAV's entirely idiosyncratic take on it. His (self-published) message is one of rank & ill-informed stupidity that bears no relation to the reality which he steadfastly refuses to acknowledge, persisting as he does with his dangerously racist beliefs. Stuff like this:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

and...

England was a more English place 50 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 May 09 - 06:18 AM

I keep questioning economic-immigration, capitalism, etc., S. But I never knock any particular culture or race - not even light-heartedly - as you have done on Mudcat, by repeatedly referring to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish Frute" (back when you were Sedayne, I think).

And this is the very message I just emailed to my local ITV and BBC news:

"Instead of having 'experts' question Newcastle United, please please question the SYSTEM: not that long ago it was mostly-locals in MEANINGFUL competition; nowadays it is a greedy meaningless free-market foreign-farce that MUST be regulated."

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign-Farce Football
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:15 PM

WAV - get a life.