BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?

Subject: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:27 PM

According to the latest McCain ad it is Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:46 PM

The Jews...and the bicycle riders.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:52 PM

The Saudis...no, OPEC...no, the Americans...no, the Venezualans...no, the British...no, the Germans...no, the Chinese...

Oh, hell...we all are, in one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:11 PM

Here it is and they are proud of the ad!

Even DougR will have to admit that this one is over the top!

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM

artbrooks...first WWII and now gas prices. Those bicycle riders are a bad lot! Thank you for the tip of the hat.

The answer is not necessarily who, but what, and there are a lot of whats.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:21 PM

News Week Fact check

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 12:11 AM

So much nonsense and misinformation on the TV and in the papers.

Who is responsible for prices? We all are. A matter of demand and supply, with speculation in the futures market to top it off.
Prices in the U. S. are well below European levels, mostly because taxes are low. Comparisons in thread 74599, 22 July: Gas prices
Prices have dropped a bit as people are learning to conserve and are demanding less, but they will never return to the levels of 10 years ago.

Rapid industrialization and urbanization in China, India, southeast Asia, South America, etc. Everybody trying to secure supplies.

1. Opening up drilling won't help for 5-10 years, the necessary lead-in time to develop new fields, logistics, transport, pipelines, personnel, etc. And oil men know that there will be disappointments as well as successes.

2. 'Pie-in-the-sky' grandiose guesstimates of billions of barrels available in the Arctic must be proven by the drill; permeable reservoirs, proper thermal regimens other factors not yet proven- even with success 5-10 years before the petroleum reaches your local filling station. The US Geological Survey estimates must be taken with a salt dome of salt. Also remember that the US and Canadian shelves are limited; Russia and several European nations also have legitimate claims to large parts of the Arctic.

3. Canada, the No. 1 supplier of oil and natural gas to the U. S., will probably be able to double tar sands production; Saudi Aramco, the No. 2 supplier, with the largest known liquid reserves, will increase production a little, but they will not mortgage their future by giving the oil away. Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates, are rapidly building an industrial base. Mexico, No. 3, has offshore possibilities that look good, but unless the Americans fully implement a free trade zone, they might sell elsewhere (this new oil also is 5 years or more in the future). Nigeria, No. 4 supplier to the U. S., seems to have pretty good reserves, but the politics are unstable (Maybe Bush should have moved on them and left Iraq alone).

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:03 AM

plus governments who tax it,right now the sensible thing for any government,who wish to control inflation is reduce the tax,say 20cents a litre.
reintroduce gambling tax,and increase taxation on non essentials like cigarettes and alcohol.
GordonBrown[england]is an idiot,if he wishes to win the next general election,instead of talking about two pence reduction,he should think about thirty pence reduction.
the problem is that if governments tax petrol on a percentage basis,as the raw material price rises,the government gets an increase in revenue,hence their reluctance.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:55 AM

the problem is that if governments tax petrol on a percentage basis

Only the VAT element is taxed pro-rata. The fuel duty is fixed, currently at 50.35p/l. In fact taxes on fuel are a lower percentage than at any time in the last 10 years at least.

The local supermarket's current price (unleaded) of 115.9p/l works out as:

17.26p VAT
50.35p duty
48.3p fuel

Or about 58.3% tax. The 2p rise in duty would translate at current fuel prices into a 2.4p rise at the pumps.

In real terms, petrol is about 24% more expensive in real terms than in 1983 , having been cheaper for much of the time, and having risen nearly 30% in the last few months- see the link for the rise since March. Total taxes have been over 50% most years since 1952 (pdf).

The fuel protestors are protesting to the wrong people- it is world oil prices, driven by economic growth in China and India, by speculation, and by the increasing cost of extracting oil, that has caused the price rises.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 07:39 AM

Didn't president George H.W. Bush sign an executive order forbidding offshore drilling?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

There ARE things that can be done NOW:

1. Carpooling.
2. Plan your driving trips so you make fewer single-purpose ones.
3. Walk or bike where/when you can.
4. Take the bus, train, or other form of mass transit.
5. Turn the thermostat down in winter and up in summer.
6. When you drive be sure that you car is in top condition and the tires properly inflated.
7. Buy the vehicle you need: if you don't NEED a Hummer, don't buy one.
8. Don't buy an ATV, snow machine, or other "recreational" toy unless you need it on the farm or ranch or whatever.
9. Don't buy an RV unless you need it, and then don't buy more than you need.
10. Support expanded rail service for both freight and passengers.

Of course, all of this was said back in the '70s, during the last "oil crisis".....

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

paul burke said,Only the VAT element is taxed pro-rata.
that still means that the government benefits as the price rises.
if governments abolished vat on petrol,and reintroduced gambling tax,and introduced tax on alcohol and cigarettes.,they could replace lost tax revenue.
the transportation of goods/ food is essential,gambling, smoking, drinking is not.
they would be able to reduce inflation, and probably win the next general election.
of course they could put greater effort in to encouraging alternative fuel,but that would not be popular with the oil companies.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

above should read extra tax on smoking and alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

"It is all because of a red wheelbarrow..."
--------William Carlos Williams

Personally, I hold the makers of "GAS-X" to be responsible for the scarcity of this commodity now. To the extent that they are the cause, their managing of supply and demand has made the sky the limit!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

I personally accept full responsibility. There, you now have a goat.

If you'd like to participate in the ensuing acts of mob violence, appropriate materials may be purchased from Uncle Beezer's Tar and Feather Emporium.

Hey, if I'm gonna take the rap I'm gonna make a buck off of it, and since tar is a petroleum distillation byproduct its price is sky high.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

The Bush Administration has done a lot to increase the price and they have done a lot to obscure the reason for the rise. Remember when the media used to point to political instability as a cause of high oil prices? The Bushies have picked fights with nearly every major producer, including Iraq, Iran, Russia, Venezuela, and to a lesser extent Canada and Mexico. They, bout oil for the strategic reserves at $130 per barrel and now they have the nerve to talk about psychological fixes, when that is the biggest psychological message at all. Thank God that the reserve is nearly full.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM

Tax portion on price (U. S. dollars/gallon)

U. S.- $0.49
Canada- 1.26
Ireland- 3.92
UK-   $5.05
Germany- 5.34
Netherlands- 5.57

Dunno what people in the U. S. are fussing about.

Figures June 2008, when price/bbl at about $140/bbl.
NY Times Sunday June 29, 2008, "Savoring Bargains at the American Pump," Bill Marsh.

For a long time, Europeans have been used to paying double what Americans do- "and live accordingly."

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:06 PM

FRODO FAILED
GEORGE BUSH GOT THE RING

that's where it started

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

The problem with the supply-demand argument is that it's very hard to see how either an increase in global demand or a decrease in present supplies could cause prices to double in two years and quadruple in four years).

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:13 PM

As I said on another thread today, the US government policy has be to insure "cheap water", "cheap food" and "cheap energy". That is what has created the world's greatest economey and kept the country revolution-free for 232 years.

Does anyone remember Al Gore's run for president in 1988? A cornerstone of his campaign was an immediate increase of $2.50 in gas taxes as soon as he became president. Had he succeeded, we would have had $4.00 per gallon gas twenty years ago. Good thing for some politicians that the public has a short attention span and an equally short memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:13 PM

The theory of the month is SHORT SELLERS in the speculation market.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:06 PM

>>A cornerstone of his campaign was an immediate increase of $2.50 in gas taxes as soon as he became president.

That's horseshit pdq. Where are you getting this crap? Fox News? Limbaugh?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:09 PM

Repeat: "...the public has a short attention span and an equally short memory."

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:27 PM

"Higher taxes on fossil fuels. . . is one of the logical first steps in changing our policies in a manner consistent with a more responsible approach to the environment." ~ Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", 1993, p. 173

And he had not changed his tune five years later as this quote shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

From a Washington Post article-
"When Clinton took office, Vice President Al Gore argued for a big gas-tas increase to promote conservation, and many administration members agreed, Panetta [Clinton budget director, Leon...] recalled. But he said, "there were also those like Treasury Secretary [Lloyd] Bentsen who said, 'Are you out of your mind?'"
"By the time Congress was done, what started out as a 50-cent a gallon proposal ended up as a 4.3-cent-a-gallon increase. Since then, just to keep up with inflation, the tax would have had to rise 6 cents, but it hasn't budged."
A 2006 article, Steven Mufson, "Talk of Raising Gas Tax Is Just That," Oct. 18, 2006.

Looks like Gore was asking for $0.50, not $2.50, but that was still too much for congressmen who wanted reelection.

Note- the gas tax for the U. S., see previous post, does not include state or city levies.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:36 PM

Ah, but that was after he became vice-president and had real power. The statements I refer to were in 1988 when Gore was a presidential candidate, with fellow travelers like Jerry Brown also running.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Who is responsible for gas prices?

The other guy. Them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:08 PM

People also forget that that barrel of petroleum also yields building blocks for many plastics.
Demand for plastics- bags, clothes, camera bodies, bathtubs- you name it- also puts petroleum in demand.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:14 PM

Not to mention dyestuffs, chemicals, medications....

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

I believe it is also a major igredient in Kraft cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:34 PM

Can you find the quote where he said 2.50 a gallon while he was running for President?

If he did say that then, He certainly did not expect to be nominated.

But if the country had heeded him we would all be much better off. The SUV era will be ridiculed buy coming generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

You didn't really believe that did you Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 08:28 PM

I would never be happy driving without my SUV. Carrying stuff to the children, all of whom live hours away, two dogs and what-have-you, the weekly trip to the mall for groceries, all with the comfort of a superior suspension, good heating in sub-zero weather and air-conditioned comfort when it gets warm.

If gasoline were $10 a gallon, I might cut back some on driving, but in a widely spread city which lacks decent public transportation, and people I want to visit many miles away, I find it indispensible. My next vehicle will also be an SUV.

I think attitudes in western Canada are different; distances travelled are large, and looking at gasoline price history, it is
just another item that has followed the upward curve of all prices.

However, $9.00 gasoline in Germany and elsewhere in western Europe has not stopped sales there of better Mercedes, BMWs and Porsches; large block European and Japanese SUVs, pick-up trucks and sports models also are doing well here in Canada.

Based on 15,000 miles driven per year, annual fuel costs-
Chevy Malibu about $2500 /year.
Chevy Equinox SUV about $3250/year
Chevy Silverado Pick-up, 4WD, about $3850/year
US government figures; this site has the estimates for nearly all vehicles sold in U. S. and Canada.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

That $1000/year more for a large, comfortable vehicle, in my view, is worth paying.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 08:52 PM

Hello, Bert. Amazing that the McCain ad is still running unabated. The Dems should be smacking it down.

The part about McCain ads I really love is where the announcer says "don't hope for change. Vote for it." Right -- vote for Obama! ...'cause McSame ain't changin' nuthin'.

Ever see the T-shirt graphic of the capital letter M as a reflection of W ?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM

Nice website there, Q!

I looked up my 1987 GMC Suburban (350 eng / Turbo 400 trans / 3/4 ton / 4WD) and compared it to the new 2008 Toyota Tundra. The latter also has a 350 cid engine, auto trans and 4WD. The Burb is rated at "13 mpg" the Tundra rated at "14 mpg".

I'm sure not trading in my $2200 wonder clunk for a shiny new Toyota costing $35,000 just to save 1 mpg. Looks like about 200 years of faithful service from the Toyota are needed to payback the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:23 PM

Kendall asked,

Didn't president George H.W. Bush sign an executive order forbidding offshore drilling?

Yes, but now he's reversed himself. Which doesn't do anything at all, because it would take Congress to actually authorize that offshore drilling, and he knows that the slim Democratic minority can't get it through by themselves, and it's a questionable proposition in any case. So he can puff himself up, that HE is doing something, and "the do-nothing Democratic Congress" won't go along with his beneficent royal will.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:32 PM

pdq, anyone who has a paid-for vehicle that is healthy should forget about a new vehicle that may be cheaper to run. Wait till 'old faithful' actually needs last rites or the repairs are substantial before thinking about a new vehicle.
That Suburban is a real hauler; here in Alberta they are fitted out and used by the Hutterites to take the women to town for shopping- hence they are called 'Hutterite taxis.'

A neighbor just bought a Tundra with all the extras, but he is replacing an old Chevy pick-up with many old vehicle diseases.
The Tundra is well-put together, but use your old vehicle as long as she still perks.

I am some envious of my younger son, he just bought a Lexus SC in almost new condition from an airlines pilot with old maid syndrome- a beautiful little car with a helluva price tag ($70,000 new?) that cruises easily at autobahn speeds- rated 16mpg city, 23mpg highway, $3400 for 15,000 miles, according to the government figures. But he has an SUV for work, and his wife has her own car for her job.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

What has all this talk about SUVs got to do with the fact that McCain is a liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:30 PM

"Who is responsible for gas prices?"


                      Michelle Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Who is responsible for gas prices?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:54 PM

George H. W. signed that EO, and George W. just revoked it. As noted, there is also a law banning offshore drilling.

Apropos of nothing, I parked my Subaru Forester SUV at the local yuppie grocery store (TJ) yesterday, and noticed that it was just about the biggest vehicle in the lot. A sign of things to come, maybe. I will admit that I can't carry full sheets of plywood inside it, and 40 concrete blocks is a pretty fully load.