BS: Why We're Liberals

Subject: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:27 AM

A very interesting talk by Eric Alterman

He's also written a book by that name. The talk is and hour and five minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:07 AM

I haven't watched this yet - but this FORA looks like a very interesting site and I hadn't come across it. Thanks.

Browsed around a few minutes and up came this Oliver Sacks talking about his book Musicophilia One of my very favourite people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:39 AM

To be liberal, in the strong sense of the word, means to care about the reciprocal granting of freedom that is the core equation of the social contract.

See this thread on the origins of liberal thought.

In my view there is a deep assumption in the liberal philosophy that states that the fundamental building block of a society is the mutually tolerant contract to respect rights, freedoms, and inidvidual dignities as a first priority.

In contrast, I sometimes get the impression that the neocon's fundamental assumption is that the basic building block of society is the deployment of force, pain and fear in establishing a rigid and preferential set of rules; a hierarchy of power.

Of course, these two assumptions lead in very different directions.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:42 AM

SOme definitions of the word "liberal":

person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

having political or social views favoring reform and progress
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM

Liberal can mean just about anything according to where and when its being used. Far left, far right, libertarian, authoritarian - you can find varieties of "liberalism" that match any of those. In some case even at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: kendall
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM

I tried to watch that video but the guy put me to sleep. Very poor speaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Well, as a word, I suggest it has been dragged into service in black PR, and its innovcence taken away and its definition forcibly changed to mean something like "pinko-faggot-communist-bleedingheart-hippie-bastard-treehugging punk".

But that is not the meaning of the word amongst eddicated folk, only amongst barbaric rabblerousers like Ann Coulter.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

That's true Kendall, and he talks about himself and his habits a bit too much early on. But it gets more interesting further in.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

Politically speaking, 'Liberal' means a liberal interpretation of the constitution, as opposed to a 'conservative' interpretation of the constitution. It's difficult to be liberal on one PART of the constitution, and not another. As an example, to be against the second and fourth amendments, and be for the first(freedom of speech, among other rights).

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

What I had in mind wasn't so much that the term gets used as an all purpose insult by mainstream right wing extremists in the US, but rather stuff like the way that, in Russia, a far right nationalist, analogous party, akin to Le Pen in France. trades under the name "the Liberal Democratic Party", while the Liberal Party in Australia is more or less analogous to the Conservative Party in the UK, and Margaret Thatcher's politics/economics were essentially old fashioned Manchester School 19th century Liberalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Politically speaking, the US constitution could be described as a liberal document.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

For its time...exceedingly liberal! And still quite reasonably liberal today.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

I think that most "liberals" have no problem with guns as a part of a well regulated militia.

Why do the people against the regulation of gun ownership hate the constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:22 PM

So liberals believe in using guns conservatively ...

While conservatives use them liberally ...


Hmmmm ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

George Lakoff, John Dean and others have discussed the different world view of the authoritarian so-called conservative and the nurturing view of the liberal.

In the US, liberal has its roots in the term "generous" as Studs Terkel has pointed out.

Generosity of nature is an attribute of the liberal position as contrasted to the rigid and doctrinaire authoritarian posture of the Neo-Con which is in lock-step with a simple-minded solution to the world's problems. You can fix it by beating it up. In the case of a social contract, you slash it. If a country doesn't agree with your ideology, you bomb it.

There are very few true conservatives any more.

Liberals because they are more compassionate in their nurturing behavior tend to question and seek answers to the dilemmas presented by world issues more than their opposite reactionary Neo-Cons.

Liberalism is a tradition that informs the development of America by Liberal Deists
such as Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, Franklin, Washington and Tom Paine.
Liberals all!

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: chazkratz
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

What bugs me is the term Neo Liberal, used to identify those Chicago Boy followers of Milton Friedman dedicated to a return to 19th/early 20th Century unbridled capitalism, as used to liberate the resources of the world from the peoples of the world.

Charles (a bit to the left of the average liberal and on a different planet from Neo Liberals)

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:54 PM

Ah, Lucky Monsieur Kratz!! Always in the middle!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM

Surely something like "Retro-Liberal" would be a more appropriate term for the back to the future crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Well, Liberal once meant a person who subscribed to the free-market philosophy of Adam Smith.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM

Well it's nice to sit around and discuss the meanings of the word that you associate yourself with but I've yet to see anyone give any plausible reasons as to why you're a liberal.

Once you've all agreed on what you want it to mean, let me know. I'm interested to see what you say.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:12 AM

I agree, the constitution is a wonderfully 'liberal' document,....makes me wonder who really is bent on changing it and why??...We all need to think that through...Love ya'........

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:18 AM

C-yes

An intelligent discussion of that topic is contained in the video I posted at the start of this thread.

Why don't you watch it an unburden yourself from some of your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:56 AM

At the basic level, and examining the root words within the terms, a Conservative would be someone who is interested in "conserving" the existing ethical, political, and legal paradigms within a given social construct. A Liberal would endorse "liberating" or freeing said construct from a significant number of those paradigms.
Hence, a Conservative might, in the US, endorse the death penalty, utilization of resources over their preservation, the sanctity of the second amendment to the Constitution, while the Liberal who is interested in freeing society of such traditional strictures would take an opposing view.
In Cuba, one who endorsed laissez faire capitalism and the right to bear arms would likely be a Liberal.
That is why these terms can be so misleading. Most of the people in my country are neither Liberal nor Conservative, but hold views friendly to both camps. Call us Consiberals. We may elect a President this year that actually represents us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

In Russia conservatives are people who'd want to get back to the good old days of the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:32 AM

JTS,

Thank you for your concern of my ignorance but I'm really interested in what you guys think.

I've heard that liberals are free and independent thinkers. So watching a video to find out from someone else about what you think?

No wonder you guys can't make up your mind about who to vote for.

I'm serious, when you guys figure it out, let me know. I'm still interested in knowing how you guys define yourself.

YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

I'm sort of partial to Gladstone's interpretation:

"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence; Conservatism is distrust of the people, tempered by fear"- Wm. Gladstone

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

If you want things to stay the way they are, you're conservative.
The dream of everyone trying to change things is to reach a situation in the world where they can be conservative in that sense, because things are the way they should be.

As William Morris put it, in the subtitle to News From Nowhere - "an epoch of rest".

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:13 PM

Some liberals are free and independent thinkers, CY, just as some conservatives are intelligent and some not so much.

Some liberals are just buying a cartoon position because it saves them a lot of trouble.

I am a liberal because I believe in moving forward and finding better ways to live life on planet earth.

I am a liberal because I believe that individual freedom should never be compromised by expediency or imagined necessity.

I am a liberal because I believe that people who are in affinity with their fellow man get along better and have richer lives than those who are not.

I am a liberal because I believe that even enemies can be forgiven once they are disarmed.

I am a liberal because I believe real communication, rather than shallow and hollow political rhetoric, will resolve almost any human problem.

I am a liberal because I believe in the final analysis, the nation will survive as well as all of its people survive, and that the rewards of success belong to he who suceeds, and the compassion of the many should be extended, voluntarily, to those in strife.

I am a liberal because I believe in intelligence and communication being far, far senior to force and bullying.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

Can a person who is 'liberal' to an ISSUE, be that way, because he is 'conservative' to upholding the CONSTITUTION?
Likewise...Has the 'issues' been used as a tool, to strip us from the constitution, to move us further away from having the government leaving us alone..to be free?
Need to think these questions through, objectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

The opposite of liberal isn't conservative, it's illiberal. There's no reason on earth why someone can't be conservative and liberal at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

Yes,

You really need releasing there.

try this

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

I don't get it. When we give a decent definition of why we are liberals, conservatives here
refuse to accept it.

Being a liberal is about American values such as freedom, democracy, honoring the "law of the commons", helping those in need, supporting government programs that aid the public,caring for others less fortunate than ourselves, rejecting the "me-first" attitude of Libertarians and those that call themselves Conservatives, supporting social justice, ending racial discrimination (very abundant during Obama's campaign), respecting religious freedom without having religion forced upon us, being able to criticize our government when it is warranted, allowing freedom of speech and fighting against bigotry and oppression, opposing the undue exercise of power by corporate monopolies, supporting and maintaining a viable middle class with allowance for poorer people to do better by leveling the economic playing field (through jobs and training and education), insisting thateducation be available to all (Thomas Jefferson), making sure that voting is not vetted or that elections are not fraudulent, honoring the Constitution and not trashing it (like Bush)...

These are ideas that make me a liberal. What don't you so-called Conservatives
understand about this?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

I don't consider myself a liberal, but I'm enjoying the talk. I think it's a good talk, and Eric Alterman reminds me a little of Bugs Bunny, so that makes it even better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM

Amos,

Thank you for the post.

Here's what I'd change about it.


Some conservatives are just buying a cartoon position because it saves them a lot of trouble.

I am a conservative because I believe in moving forward and finding better ways to live life on planet earth.

I am a conservative because I believe that individual freedom should never be compromised by expediency or imagined necessity.

I am a conservative because I believe that people who are in affinity with their fellow man get along better and have richer lives than those who are not.

I am a conservative because I believe that even enemies can be forgiven once they are disarmed.

I am a conservative because I believe real communication, rather than shallow and hollow political rhetoric, will resolve almost any human problem.

I am a conservative because I believe in the final analysis, the nation will survive as well as all of its people survive, and that the rewards of success belong to he who suceeds, and the compassion of the many should be extended, voluntarily, to those in strife.

I am a conservative because I believe in intelligence and communication being far, far senior to force and bullying.


With the change of that one word, we can both agree on a lot of things. Or is this one of those tomato/tomotto things?

Where do we go from here?

Speaking from the nation's pov, we've got the ideas and we've got
the technology and the intelligence to make this thing work.

I don't pretend to be so one-sided as to think that only one group has the right answers but together, I believe, the right answer can be found in there somewhere.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

C-Yes,

Its a shame you haven't watched the video. You and Alterman aren't all that far apart.

Perhaps you should stop trying to show how smart you are with your clever "find and replace" and you should invest some time trying to gain new knowledge to show off.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

Liberals are liberals because they think they know better than the rest of us how folks should act, speak, play, eat, work, spend money, exercise rights guaranteed in the Constitution, protect themselves, and myriad other activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Define a liberal for me, John.

Thanks,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

John,

You lectured me a little while ago about being open minded enough to listen to the other side.

This guy actually calls himself a liberal and he makes a good case.

Watch the video.

You will find that what he wants is for everyone to have the freedom they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

"Perhaps you should stop trying to show how smart you are with your clever "find and replace" and you should invest some time trying to gain new knowledge to show off."


And it's a reply like that that gives "liberal" it's negative connotation.

Thanks, JTS.



YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

One of the things he's saying that I think is interesting is that while a minority of people self identify as liberals, a majority of people actually support things that are commonly considered to be liberal. Maybe some of the people self identifying as conservatives in this thread are in fact liberals as defined in the talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

Mick, I just did. see at 3:50pm

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

CarolC, I think maybe you're on to something there. Many (maybe most) Liberals and many (maybe most) conservatives share a lot in common. Its the journey towards the goal that's different.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM

Stringsinger, I did not refuse to accept anything..I merely asked a question..nor am I a Conservative, based on what conservatism has presently been defined as. For instance, president Bush, stands up, and defines himself as a conservative, yet at the same time, radically alters the constitutional limits of presidential powers, to suit the needs of 'his' agenda. This, by definition, is quite 'liberal' in interpreting the constitution, is it not?? Obama, on the other hand, wishes to change the constitution, by some of what he is proposing(2nd amendment for one, but others as well). The constitution does NOT guarantee, that the government provide anything to the people, other that to limit is powers, to get OUT OF THE WAY, and that the rights the people have are given by God, as unalienable. The government doesn't GIVE us our rights, but today's interpretation of being 'liberal' seems to want to push that idea..and force those ideas on everyone. Conservatives, seem to get away with thinking whatever this administration is doing, is conservative, when in fact, it is NOT!
Like to get feedback about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:17 PM

John, I would certainly agree with that statement. All we're trying to do is get to the same point while living life to the fullest.

That "same point" in my eyes is getting to the point to where you live life in such a manner to just not leave behind a legacy for others to see but to live your life in a manner in which other people will strive to be like the person that they have witnessed.

That's probably as clear as mud but it makes sense to me.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

He also said that until some people invested millions of dollars into a campaign to make the word "liberal" a dirty word, most people self identified as liberals, including Eisenhower and Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

"Keep them doggies rollin', RAWHIDE!!!!!!!!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

I should correct that... he said they self identified as liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

GfS:

The notion that the Government grants rights is anathema to me and most liberals I know.

I don't hold with the God-given aspect except in the loosest possible sense.

One of my biggest complaints about the Federal government, especially over the last eight years, is the degree to which it has intruded on issues that it should have absolutely no business meddling in. Terry Schiavo, marriage laws, and gawd-knows-what-all else.

So I really don't understand your notion that liberals thing government is the source of rights. By gum, this one don't.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why We're Liberals
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

Amos, An example of what I said, is sharing 'wealth' according to redistribution of money earned, to fund government programs of 'entitlements'. On the other hand, I personally think, that when large corporations are given tax breaks, that those might be conditional, as to the hiring, and expansion of new jobs. The way it is now, that money is being used to make 'lawmakers', employees of the corporations!(So I guess on could say they are expanding with new employees....). Also, there are impeachment hearings going on now, in the judiciary committees. One thing that was brought out, during the hearings, is that with all the unconstitutional powers the current president, unconstitutionally heaped upon himself, that this be wrapped up, and undone,...before the next president took office. The war powers, is one topic that is really 'under the gun' so to speak. If the next president, let's say Obama, if he should win, for example, wishes to impose his views on the 2nd amendment on the people, and moves to implement those..has anyone considered the national bloodbath that would ensue?? ...Just things to consider..