BS: Reasons for being a Conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:53 PM

"...heck are we gonna do about the danged situation?"

May I sugest beer (in moderation, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

You betcha, pdq! (grin) A truce it is.

Now, what the heck are we gonna do about the danged situation? (regarding those two parties, I mean)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:32 PM

Well, Liberal Squawk, I think I agree with you on that post.

Not sure because I have a short attention span and nod-off during long posts, but I think you are correct.

At least let's declare a truce, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, it's hilarious, ain't it, pdq? ;-) Democrats can get away with enacting conservative fiscal legislation, because their partisan supporters and the media don't scream in protest when they do it.

Likewise, Republicans can get away with doing foreign policy things that the Democrats aren't allowed to do by the public and the media.

Example: Nixon could get away with opening friendly relations with Red China. No Democratic president could have done it...he'd have been accused of being "soft on Communism" and of "abandoning our allies in Taiwan".

It works exactly the same way on either side of the divide, pdq, only in the opposite fashion...mirror image...and I'll tell you why it works that way. It's designed to.

Your society is run by an elite oligarchy. That oligarchy controls your two major parties by controlling their funding. It uses them both to fool you into thinking you have a real choice when you go to the voting booth. It makes you think you still have a functioning democracy, which you do not. If the one party cannot slip some dirty piece of work by you or some radical new policy by you, then the other party can. So they switch places at strategic intervals when the oligarchy wants to push a change in policy...and the dirty work goes forward.

That's the name of the game. The controllers win. You lose. The Democratic and Republican parties are merely two phony football teams who play the game out on the field to keep you all mesmerized and entertained. The oligarchy owns the league, owns the stadium, and sells the tickets. The oligarchy makes the profit.

Now the two teams...they both want to win like hell, of course. Why? Well, winning the phony football game provides perks and glory to the winners. They get to party and live high for the next four years while the other team plans for the next playoff.

You will not get loose from it until you all see how badly you've been had by your corrupt partisan $ySStem...and you dump it once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

Stange how that works, ain't it John Hardly?

Democrat Bill Clinton enacted NAFTA, welfare reform and other "conservative" legislation because he could. The Republicans would have been excoriated by the mews media for proposing the exact same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

In an interesting wrinkle, the very things that make me conservative are making me look to the Democrat Party as a possible way to voice my conservative views (particularly if Obama has the good sense to pick Evan Bayh as his running mate). The Republican Party has nearly completely shown an unwillingness to enact conservative policies and plans. The Democrats just might be forced by history and timing to become the actual conservatives. Life's funny that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

Yeah, Jack. ;-) I know.

"Progressives" for sure. But I'm talkin' about the real hardcore ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM

There aren't any "Neo-Liberals" LH. DougR has been smoking Ann Coulter's Conservative crack.

The people you describe call themselves "progressives" now I think.

That Canadian kid with the blog calls them "white people." Stuff White people like.

I call the people you describe "Most Mudcatters" ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:40 PM

Am I talking about the right quote? If you are a Conservative when you are young you have no heart.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

A neo-liberal, Doug? ;-) Well, here's what I envision: One of those really pestiferous individuals who wears Birkenstocks and only natural weave clothing, drinks nothing but organic soya smoothies, grows wheat grass in their kitchen, is aggressively pushy about gay rights, women's issues, Native American issues, Anti-semitism issues, any and all racism issues, and affirmative action-type stuff...and just WON'T shut up about it...and lets you know by their whole contemptuous attitude to you that they are sooooo more righteous and in the know about all that kind of stuff than you are that they really can't be bothered even dealing with you at all, because you'd be better off dead anyway.

If male, the person is skinny and artistic, has a well-trimmed Van Dyke beard and glasses, speaks with a slight lisp, drinks lattes at Starbucks, and is really into modern art and jazz in a big way. He also NEVER stops talking about himself and gossiping savagely about all the other people he knows, who are clearly hopeless idiots. Most of them are neo-liberals quite similar to him, but they're still idiots.

If female, the person has a brushcut (or else she has really curly blond or brown hair in an afro) and she has round wire-rim glasses and wears clothes that look like something a trucker would wear...aside from the sandals. If she's hardcore, it's not sandals, it's old work boots or Doc Martins. She doesn't talk to people like YOU or ME at all because she doesn't even regard us as a form of life...nor does she regard most men as a form of life, in fact. She only votes for the Green Party and she may even be a charter member of Greenpeace. She is organizing a "Take Back The Night" parade for next week. Chances are about 50/50 that she is Jewish. She can spot a single molecule of antisemitism or male chauvinism in an entire acre of freshly mown grass. She makes her own bread, and lots of it. She owns three Burmese cats and lives in an apartment with a skylight.

Am I on the right track here?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

From what I remember of 1965 that was pretty spot about how the way women tended to be seen in "Movement circles", and see themselves even - "the women become mere camp-followers."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

JtS:

No, not exactly, but still in the anteumbra of chivalry and Victorian regard. I think there is something to be said for the difference in nurturing power between men and women, just as there is somethign to be said for the use of larger muscles in men.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

McGrath,

Its doubtful that he would have applied it to modern American Conservatism's definition of the words.

It would be saying that
When you are young you should appoint "activists judges who want to vacuum out babies heads and when you are old you should want to give tax breaks to people who would turn up their noses if you walked into their country clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

I think that quote was probably Churchill - describing his own political record of switching party allegiance.

I don't think it's actually all that true, if those words are used as political labels. And there are plenty of examples of it working the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:52 PM

Oh I think we can hazard a guess.

We can compare the values he talked about to what those people have done.

Doug,

You told me that Goldwater's book described your conservative philosophy. You should know what he would think about Bush and his boondoggles. That you don't shows that you are not as conservative as you claim to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:56 PM

There is an awful lot of talk about neo-conservatism. What do you liberals believe is an appropriate "handle" for neo-liberals?

JTS:Since Barry Goldwater is dead, I really don't believe anyone can hazard an accurate guess of what he might think of modern conservatism.

William F. Buckley, in his recent book about Barry Goldwater's 1964 campaign and the months leading up to it quoted a noted conservative (wish I could remember who it was) as saying, "Any person age 21 who is not a liberal has no heart. Any person age 41 who is not a conservative has no brain." Sounds good to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

Amos

The first one is satire?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:45 PM

"The conditions of American society do not encourage manly responsibility and moral courage in men, and we simply do not know how to use the tenderness and motherliness of women. The present disposition of the radical young is to treat males and females alike: in my observation, this means that the women become mere camp-followers, the opposite of the suburban situation in which they are tyrannical dolls. I do not know the answer."

~ Like a Conquered Province, 1965, chapter 2: "Counter-Forces for a Decent Society"

"It is by losing ourselves in inquiry, creation and craft that we become something. Civilization is a continual gift of spirit: inventions, discoveries, insight, art. We are citizens, as Socrates would have said, and we have it available as our own. "

Goodman (source not noted)


McGrath, thank you for reminding me of Goodman. I had clean forget in my long journey into Bobohood what a clear and poignant voice he had.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:34 PM

The late Paul Goodman - New York poet, anarchist and thinker - used to describe his politics as "Neolithic Conservatism", and I think that label fits my politics as well. These modern inventions like governments and armies and money are a real pain, never to be trusted

Paul Goodman deserves a lot more attention than he gets. He always did.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:52 AM

Doug,

From what I have read about Goldwater, he would not approve of GW Bush or the most recent Republican Congress. You have seemed to have any problem sticking up for either of them. I'd have to say that if you were to tell us where you differ with Bush, McCain and those folks who gave us that prescription drug plan, which certainly had Goldwater spinning in his grave. I'd be interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

JTS it's me that should apologise for not being aware by now that you are on the other side of the pond.

My mistake mate.

Anyone who says he likes Tories is OK with me. This side of the pond these days even Tories don't admit to THAT, unless they are stubborn old gits like me. It's just not worth the abuse you get.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:13 PM

Conservative mudcatters are NOT afraid of this thread, JTS. I think many of us here know that there is no point to posting. If Lox wants to know the conservative view, he/she would be far better off reading "Conscience of A Conservative" ghost written for Barry Goldwater by Brent Bozell, Jr. than anything he/she would find posted on the Mudcat.

Conservative mudcatters are not going to convert the liberals on this site to our philosophy, just as they are not going to convert conservatives to their view.

It's just a waste of time.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

Conservatives are fiscally so. They don't like waste in money such as the billion dollars
the US Government lost in Iraq that we taxpayers paid for.

Conservatives don't like pork such as "bridges to nowhere" in Alaska.
Conservatives believe in paying their bills when they come due and not going into
debt like the US is doing under Bush.
Conservatives want to conserve energy, not squander it.
Conservatives want freedom from becoming spied upon by government agencies.
Conservatives want larger corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and not put
smaller businesses into bankruptcy.

Remember that the root of the word is "conserve" not squander as Bush and his criminal
buddies have been doing. I think a legitimate point can be made for this true conservatism.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:59 PM

Congrats to your Dad. But that sort of misses the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM

My dad just got his economic stimulus payment -- in Canada! Bless you neocons. These checks are going all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

There's one thing I've never understood. In my personal life, if I'm careful not to spend more money than I take in, that's being "conservative" with my money. And I think I'm very conservative that way - the last time I took out a loan other than a mortgage, was 1978. I pay all my bills on time, and I pay off my credit cards in full every month. I have a good amount of money in savings, and I'm able to give generously to worthy causes. That's what I think being "conservative" should be - and I think that kind of conservatism is a virtue.

These American "neoconservatives" are a different bunch, though. They always seem to want to cut income (taxes) and increase spending and borrowing. The say they want to decrease spending, but they never seem to get around to any cuts other than cutting taxes for rich people and cutting benefits for poor people. So, we end up with a huge chunk of our taxes going to pay interest on loans. Saving money for emergencies or worthy causes, isn't on their agenda at all.

I don't get it. Who's "conservative" and who's "liberal" in this equation? In my lifetime, the only Republican Presidents who were fiscal conservatives were Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford (and George H.W. Bush wasn't half bad, either). If the Republicans had more honest conservatives like Eisenhower and Ford, and fewer cowboy conservatives like Reagan and W., I might become a Republican myself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

sorry...


...next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

Don!

That was my post you copy pasted!

It certainly was not aimed at Tories!

It was aimed at Rush Limbaugh's ditto heads and their kind in this country.

I actually like Tories.

Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to be more specific this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

"I've had a good hunt for some Tory bashing but couldn't find any"

You aren't looking very hard. I copy pasted the first one in my post that you were responding to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

LOL good one!

You can't call them "A la Carte." They hate the French!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

"Cafeteria Conservatives"?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

I get pretty upset when I see him spend money. That medicare prescription boondoggle was astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Sure thing! Why, I'm a member of that group myself!! For example, I get very conservative when W starts wanting to inject narrow-minded moral strictures into the Constitution of the United States, start wars of pre-emption, and undermine the Bill of Rights. Positively anal!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

I made up the term in another thread Amos. It means people who are ideologically conservative only when it suits them.


As far as I can see, its the fastest growing political affiliation in the country. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

I have a problem with conflating fiscal conservatism with issue like abortion. I don't think combining the two issues helps the resolution of either.

On the other hand in principal I am against abortion but I think that it is the individual's decision.

My tax money and how it is pissed away is certainly my business.

I am a strange kind of conservative for this country.
I like spending on infrastructure and many kinds of social spending because they are investments in the community and the tax money comes back as taxes through the multiplier effect and economic stimulus.

I am not in favor of subsidies and tax breaks to large international corporations or to people who own a lot of capital because that money is often taken out of our economy or invested in ways that create Real Estate or market bubbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:58 PM

You mean I should select it? Or that it is being selectively applied?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

Selective Conservatism, Amos, Selective Conservatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

It has always struck me as curious that those who claim Conservative ground on the basis of "individual responsibility for one's acts" were so ready to pursue the invasion of iraq as a consequence of 9-11, instead of targeting those actually responsible.

Is it just me? Or is that some kind of logical inversion?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:35 PM

Thanks, Frank. I was wondering who would reclaim the language as it was supposed to be used. I am sick to death of these phonies trying to paint us with cliche'd politics and revisionist language. As always, your wisdom and the miles you have travelled come shining through.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:22 PM

A true conservative would not allow those in the White House to increase the National Debt.
A true conservative would (like Eisenhower) not allow the Military Industrial Complex to
rob taxpayers.
A true conservative would question the value of foreign incursions by pre-emptive means.
A true conservative would allow for small businesses not to be buried by behemoth corporations (in a so-called "free market").
A true conservative would embrace fiscal responsibility in government.
A true conservative would protect individual freedoms by not allowing the Telecomms
to spy on American citizens.
A true conservative would embrace education to make responsible citizens.


Hence: There are no true conservatives today include Insane McCain, Bushites or the
Neo-cons.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

They all have corruption Lox. But I think that PR has been a larger cause of gridlock and all the collapsing governments in Italy.

Canada has the same system as Britain. Its not perfect. But a lot of good ideas get introduced by fringe parties and then incorporated into main party platforms as the ideas become popular. Often the main parties do this to keep the fringe parties from gaining ground. Another way fringe parties gain influence is in a minority government.

On the other hand, in the words of Van the Man!

Dont want to discuss it
I think its time for a change
You may get disgusted
And think Im strange
In that case Ill go underground
Get some heavy rest
Never have to worry
About what is worst and what is best

Oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Lord have mercy
I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Say it again
I said oh oh domino
I said oh oh domino

Theres no need for argument
Theres no argument at all
And if you never hear from him
That just means he didnt call
Or vice versa
That depends on where ever youre at
And if you never hear from me
That just means I would rather not

I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Lord have mercy
I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Say it again
Oh oh domino
I said oh oh domino.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

Hmmm ...

The domino effect eh?

The plot thickens!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

My Grandad used to go the Conservative club to play dominoes.

I see the 'game of dominoes' motive has not been touched on by anyone else

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

"Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?"

No - that would be corruption.

Otherwise the same would be true in Ireland, Germany, New Zealand ...

... Austria, Belgium, Greece, Denmark, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland ...

... etc etc etc etc ...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

"...there will be the Ins and the Outs."

Are we talking politcal parties here or belly buttons?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Whether there are formal parties or not, under pretty well any system there will be the Ins and the Outs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

LH

There's never been democracy without those with common interests or enemies banding together. Political parties are just cliques with names.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

People lived for millenia without political parties. In some cases they managed to have fully democratic systems without any political parties, and that is what I'm recommending. In my opinion, political parties are the worst thing that ever happened to democracy and they are destroying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

>> replaced by PR.

Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

I think a greater diversity of views would be more fairly represented if the first past the post electoral system were scrapped and replaced by PR.

But till then, I feel that the other parties, who should have more of a voice when their overall support base is taken into account, will continue to sit in the margins while the two big parties continue to slug it out.

And yes I should qualify my point by making it specific to England as opposed to the UK in general.