BS: Good Ole Harry Truman

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:33 AM

I read one chapter and it pissed me off.
Truman lost China? When did we HAVE China?
The great Douglas MacArthur? the prima Donna who swore to Truman that China would not enter the war? The "Old soldier" who failed to get the nomination for president from his own party?
What do these assholes do to destroy their memories like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:12 PM

I haven't read this article yet, but I have a feeling it will piss me off:

A Truman for Our Times from "Prospect Magazine" [UK] (no connection to "The American Prospect" apparently).

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:23 AM

Jo, it's called thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

Jo in Oz - if you had posted to that thread, it would have reappeared. It's not appropriate in this thread, unless we think that President Truman had a frozen shoulder. I've restarted the old thread for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:22 AM

Right on Teribus. How many of us know who started the French and Indian wars? That is, America and the French.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:58 AM

Another good read for you Kendall is Niall Ferguson's, "EMPIRE How Britain Made The Modern World".

The Seven Years War that Les in Hull referred to, which is known in American History as the Wilderness or Frontier War ended in victory for the British, who had allied themselves with some Indian Tribes to defeat the French and their Indian allies. The treaty that was signed granted security to Indian lands in the Ohio and Wabash basins.

One of the "hoped for" by-products of the American War of Independence of 1776 was the breaking of that treaty, read Ferguson's book, it most certainly had nothing to do with taxation, oppression, representation or tea. Unfortunately for the colonists the British remained in Canada and the treaty held. Nobody ever wonder why Indiana is so named? In 1776 there were only two "white settlements", old French trading posts in the whole territory.

The Americans tweny-nine years after the Treaty of Paris once again tried to complete their take-over of Indian land in 1812 when they declared war on Britain and allied themselves with Napoleonic France. The war was indecisive, Canada remained British, but in 1813 Tecumseh was killed and the Indian lands were lost to westward expansion by American settlers.

Subject: Message for Les from Hull
From: GUEST,Jo in Oz
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Hi
I just found your posting from 2005 re frozen shoulders, am keen to find out more, do you know the name of the machine or the practitione? I am in Australia bt would love to find out what it was that they used. - not sure how to use these forums either? Hope you can fill me in.
Cheers Jo

"A chiropractor fastened on a sort of suction/vibration machine and that fixed my frozen shoulder over about 4/5 visits. After the visits it looked like my shoulder had been attacked by an alien octopus, but I got full movement back for just over a hundred of our English pounds.''

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

'How did they justify the Boer War?' Actually the real reasons seemed to be you've got gold and diamonds and we want them. But the justification was that they refused to give voting and other rights to non-Boer inhabitants. I seem to remember something similar happening there until comparatively recently. It was called apartheid.

On the subject of smallpox infected blankets, it was actually just two blankets and a handkerchief, not like one blanket each. Despicable nonetheless.

I've just finished an excellent book 'Crucible of War' - the Seven Years War and the fate of Empire in British North America 1754-1766 by Fred Anderson. Heartily recommended reading. Oh and apart from the religion, the French encouraged the 'indians' to raid farms and other outposts, and massacre and enslave white people. Nobody comes out clean in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM

America needs you
Harry truman
Harry could you please come home
Things are looking bad
I know you would be mad
To see your favorite men
Prevail upon the land you love

Americas wondering
How we got here
Harry all we get is lies
Were gettin safer cars
Rocket ships to mars
From men whod sell us out
To get themselves a piece of power

Wed love to hear you speak your mind
In plain and simple ways
Call a spade a spade
Like you did back in the days
You would play piano
Each morning walk a mile
Speak of what was going down
With honesty and style

Americas calling
Harry truman
Harry you know what to do
The world is turnin round and losin lots of ground
Oh harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Oh woah woah woah

Americas calling
Harry truman
Harry you know what to do
The world is turnin round
And losin lots of ground
Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Oh
Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Harry
Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love



         Words and Music: Robert Lamm
         Recorded by Chicago

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:03 AM

One must judge a man by HIS time, not ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Janie
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:35 AM

I'm one of those people who enjoy reading biographies, have read a number of biographies about presidents, and two biographies about Truman. He wasn't perfect and didn't pretend to be. But I think it was clear that he was man of good integrity as defined by taking responsibility for one's choices. The buck really did stop with him. He stood by his decisions to drop the bombs on Japan, and I don't think ever seriously doubted they were, for him, and for his times, the right decisions.   One may disagree about the correctness of his choices, but one can never say he tied himself up in knots trying to justify his choices, or to deflect responsibility onto others. When he made choices that he later considered bad choices, he readily owned up to them.

Today, he would be unelectable for his plain-spokeness. He enjoyed power, but was not about power for the sake of power.

Having said that, the world appeared to be a simpler place back then, most people had simpler views of themselves and their countries, and it was easier to see things as black or white, though the perspective on what was black and what was white varied by nationality.

The world was probably just as complex, but until the 1960's, that complexity was not as transparent as it is in the age of globalization. Truman was very effective within the context of his time. I don't know that he would be effective today. "Effective" in our own current time, is difficult to conceptualize, much less define.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM

"...a lot of thought by a lot of people was put to it..."

But as Truman himself said "The buck stops here."

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

Ascribing the decision to A-Bomb Japan to a 'narrow-minded' President Truman is simply to be unaware of the facts, as well as unacquanted with Harry Truman.

Whether or not one agrees with the decision, it was thoroughly vetted, and a lot of thought by a lot of people was put to it. An entire aircraft wing (wing as in multiple planes) was developed to carry it. Japan was being bombed to rubble by thousand plane raids; the only cities not being bombed were those reserved for the A-Bomb.

The first bomb was the Uranium bomb. This did not need to be tested in New Mexico because the physicists knew it would work.

This is the 63rd anniversary of the second bomb, which was the Plutonium implosion bomb. It was a more-or-less identical copy of the Trinity device with the addition of a bomb casing around it.

There were the makings for a third bomb, but after the effects of the first two explosions were determined, the US Government took civil control of the nuclear core back from the military and had it returned.

It should be emphasized that these atomic weapons were the explosive equivalent each of a two-thousand bomber raid over a city. What was just over the time horizon, fortunately after the War, was the development of new weapons that were a thousand times yet more powerful.

They were horrible horrible devices. They ended the war and there has never been another war like it since.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:26 AM

Teribus, I chose not to go into the abuses of the British Empire. Anyone who can read knows that story.How did they justify the Boer War for instance? In North America, they gave the Indians small pox infected blankets while the French gave them religion.

All I'm saying is, Japan was not the first, or the last to run roughshod over weaker nations. Broken treaties are only one of the nasty things we did to the Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the desire of the British Government to retain Indian land to the west of the 13 colonies. It was also one of the proposals for the peace to end the 1812 War.

We were on pretty shaky ground with the Opium Wars with China, though.

There were some Japanese proposals to surrender before Hiroshima, though not from the majority of Tojo's ruling junta. These were made though the Soviet Union as intermediary, but the Soviets had their own agenda, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:23 AM

"just for the record After the first bomb was dropped Tojo was given the warning to surrender or another bomb would be dropped he chose to ignore this advice so the next one was dropped on Nagasaki with the warning the next would be dropped in down town Tokyo"

"Just for the record that I have uncovered, the Emperor traditionally did not interfere in the day to day running of life, including the war.

It was the Military leaders in the Govt who refused to surrender - not wanting to lose face - in musch the same way the a certain German - dammn! there goes Godwin's Law again - would rather have the entire country reduced to ashes than surrender." - Foolestroupe

Eh Foolestroupe, just for the record Tojo was the leader of the Miltary Junta ruling Japan at that time - The Emperor was Hirohito.

"It's not like Japan was the only country that ever acted like that. We declared war on Spain to get her bases around the world. We destroyed the native Americans to get their land, and I'm sure you know how Great Britain has operated all those years." - Kendall

I certainly am aware of how Great Britain operated throughout all those years Kendall - I don't think that you do. The Government of the UK as a rule generally abided by whatever treaty obligations were agreed - That Kendall is in marked contrast to the Government of the United States of America during the same period - Example, you broke every single treaty ever made with the native American Indians to get their land. The American Government falsified and fabricated causes for war with Spain in order to dispossess her of foreign possessions that the USA wanted for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:49 AM

"it kept the Russians out of the main islands of Japan.They had already invaded the northernmost islands"

Taking into account what had been heard about the way the Russians treated POWs, this was also a strong driver to surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:12 PM

It's not like Japan was the only country that ever acted like that. We declared war on Spain to get her bases around the world. We destroyed the native Americans to get their land, and I'm sure you know how Great Britain has operated all those years.

There is another aspect to dropping the bomb; it kept the Russians out of the main islands of Japan.They had already invaded the northernmost islands and were preparing to move south. They decided against it when the big ones hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

"just for the record After the first bomb was dropped Tojo was given the warning to surrender or another bomb would be dropped he chose to ignore this advice so the next one was dropped on Nagasaki with the warning the next would be dropped in down town Tokyo"

Just for the record that I have uncovered, the Emperor traditionally did not interfere in the day to day running of life, including the war.

It was the Military leaders in the Govt who refused to surrender - not wanting to lose face - in musch the same way the a certain German - dammn! there goes Godwin's Law again - would rather have the entire country reduced to ashes than surrender. The Emperor made his first ever direct radio broadcast to the public - and surprised many by declaring unconditional surrender (which is why he did not tell the Govt what he was going to do - there was some talk of him being assassinated and overthrown if he publicly expressed such 'weakness'), because he felt that further civilian suffering was pointless.


"We ordered them out of China, we ordered them out of Indo China, we ordered them out of the islands of the South Pacific, we stopped all shipments to Japan,and the last straw was when FDR froze their assets in this country." thus "Japan did not start the war. We did, as usual."

Hmm, the Japanese were pretty bloody minded about wanting to secure resources across the whole region by riding roughshod over anybody who stood in their way - when some countries stopped the resource flow to them or otherwise obstructed them, they felt that they had no choice but to destroy them.

Hmmm, Korea, Vietnam, South America, Iraq, Iran....


[Don't mention the war, I did, but I think got away with it!]

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

On the other hand the Yamamoto did a lot of sneaky things. They hid their approach to the islands and they tried to time the attacks so that they occurred simultaneously with the declaration of war. I'm thinking he knew he was being sneaky because it was his best strategy. The element of surprise protected his ships and men.

That's just good military (or naval) work. To be "sneaky" can be a high military virtue.

Now the political strategy expressed in the attacks being simultaneous with a declaration of war MAY be criticizable, if not culpable, but the admirals et al., having their orders to attack, had a duty to hide their approach, to attack at the hour in morning on a day when watchfulness might be expected to be low, thus "sneaky". Nothing wrong with that.

In any case, this has nothing to do with Truman, who was merely a lightly-regarded Senator at the time.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

When we're talking about incinerating and maiming tens of thousands of civilians of all ages we owe it to ourselves and to those involved, not to use language that distances us and makes it sound like a game, such as "ya gotta punch a guy twice so he knows the first one wasn't a lucky punch".

That applies even if we think what happened was right or inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

>>Anyone who thinks the Japanese just got out of bed one morning and said, "I'm bored, let's bomb Pearl Harbor, is living in a fantasy world.We gave them good reason to hit us, and they did.

That's a good point Kendall. Its a very good point. On the other hand the Yamamoto did a lot of sneaky things. They hid their approach to the islands and they tried to time the attacks so that they occurred simultaneously with the declaration of war. I'm thinking he knew he was being sneaky because it was his best strategy. The element of surprise protected his ships and men.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

I didn't mean to refight World War II yet again. I think it is interesting that, for instance, people like Eisenhower and Nimitz were dubious about the need to drop the bomb(s).   Not that anyone's hands were clean before that, apart from the misery the Japanese were inflicting, the firebombing of Japan's cities was pretty hairy.   It seems to me that, given the success of the blockade (cf. the Strategic Bombing Survey) that Japan would have surrendered without an invasion by December, but only because massive numbers of the population would have starved to death.   Not that that would have been great either!!!



yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

The people of Oahu were citizens of the USA and were supposed to be under the protection of the US government. That government failed, and they were the victims.
Anyone who thinks the Japanese just got out of bed one morning and said, "I'm bored, let's bomb Pearl Harbor, is living in a fantasy world.We gave them good reason to hit us, and they did.

Bush did the same thing in Iraq without a declaration of war.That's some precedent he set for the world.
We like to think we are Mr. Clean, a paragon of virtue and a role model for the world, but when we remove the rose colored glasses, we see a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

Sometimes, ya gotta punch a guy twice so he knows the first one wasn't a lucky punch. Simplification, but that's what I was taught.

As for sneak attack, there's a lot of wax in that ball. Can you Lusitania that?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Kendall,

From what I read the people on Oahu were not on a war footing and thus the damage to the Navy an civilian deaths were higher than they would have been. It was a sneak attack as far as they were concerned. I think that's what counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

Louie, I agree that Truman was an outstanding president, especially when compared to that lying, draft dodging vacuous dummy we have now. However, Japan did not start the war. We did, as usual.
We ordered them out of China, we ordered them out of Indo China, we ordered them out of the islands of the South Pacific, we stopped all shipments to Japan,and the last straw was when FDR froze their assets in this country. They lost face, and they knew they could not beat us but they would rather die than lose face. Something we have never understood.
Our own people were largely responsible for the so called "Sneak attack". Yamamoto did not know that the declaration of war had not been delivered, and in his mind he was not making a sneak attack.

They say that history is written by the winners, but, sometimes the truth survives the pen of the revisionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Louie Roy
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

Peter T just for the record After the first bomb was dropped Tojo was given the warning to surrender or another bomb would be dropped he chose to ignore this advice so the next one was dropped on Nagasiki with the warning the next would be dropped in down town Tokio.This finally got his attenttion.Truman was one of the best presidents that we've ever had in my opinion barring none Louie

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:46 PM

The second bomb (imo) was dropped to inform Russia who the biggest dog on the block really was. (I do not think this was Truman's decision all on his own.) He had advisors who had been working with the Manhattan Project. Recall that the US had no mmore bombs left at that time--after Nagasaki that is. Russia was really close to 'the secret'. So, you keep one or gamble for the time to make more.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

You are kidding right? Was he asleep through the war and did not know the implications of ending it sooner? Do you think he flipped a coin because he couldn't be bothered to consider the consequences?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:32 PM

I think a fair reading of the complex history of the runup to Hiroshima, and the subsequent, quite unnecessary bombing of Nagasaki, suggests that Truman was out of his depth on the issue, and responded without much thought.



yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:35 PM

Dropping the Bomb was a very complicated decision. I've heard a lot of good debate on both sides. But Louie Roy, of your generation, I don't know of anyone who was of fighting age at the time who doesn't totally agree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Louie Roy
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:15 PM

Harry Truman is the first person I had the privledge to vote for and help elect him President.I disagree with Peter T about Hary Truman's his decicion to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima.I know it was a hard decision for anyone to make but by doing so it stopped the war and saved probably 300 to 400 thousand american service men and women lives.I spent 4 years of my life in WW2 from the time I was 17 until I was 21 and most of it in the South Pacific. We didn't start the war the Japs did with their cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor Louie Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:45 PM

I remember meeting that, like many politicians, he had a great facility for remembering names.

I'm enjoying this thread. I didn't know all of these other things and the quotes here are great!

But isn't Truman the guy who lost to President Dewey? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

Whether all these stories are true hardly matters. He did have serious flaws: his decisions about Hiroshima and the American part in the origins of the Cold War are the decisions of a narrow minded man.

I met Harry Truman when I was a boy. I was a Scout marshalling a parade he was in on a bitter cold day in Missouri, and he complimented me on my foresight in wearing earmuffs. I told him I was a Canadian and we were good at that sort of thing. He laughed, and we chatted about this and that for a couple of minutes. So I retain a fondness for the guy.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

You have to admire a man wo was willing to straight-out call someone a bastard and let the chips fall where they might. The man had grit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

How about the time he walked into a room full of KKK members and chided them for buying sheets from Jews then trying to intimidate them?

There is a story about him and McArthur when they met at Guam and McArthur was late. Harry told him, "You can keep Harry Truman waiting all day, but you do not keep the president of the United States waiting Mr."

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:38 AM

"Health Care
We should resolve now that the health of
this nation is a national concern; that
financial barriers in the way of attaining health
shall be removed; that the health of all it's [sic.]
citizens deserves the help of all the nation.
Harry S. Truman"

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

"I have found the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it.
Harry S. Truman"

"Richard Nixon is a no good, lying bastard. He can lie out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and if he ever caught himself telling the truth, he'd lie just to keep his hand in.
Harry S. Truman"

"When even one American - who has done nothing wrong - is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth - then all Americans are in peril.
Harry S. Truman"

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:29 AM

Harry Truman is one of my heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:25 AM

I knew a guy who served in HST's artillery unit in WW1. He knew him and said that he was a "damned good fella." Coming from this old codger this was equivalent to deification, since he considered Jesus Christ to be "an okay kinda guy." (Those are actual quotes -- I'd never heard JC called that before.)

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

'After he left the White House, Truman was invited to visit San Francisco shipping mogul George Killion. When his driver got lost, Truman rang the doorbell of a nearby house and asked for directions. The homeowner couldn't help him. "I hope I'm not hurting your feelings," he did say, "but you look exactly like that old s.o.b. Harry Truman."

"I hope I'm not hurting your feelings either," responded Truman, "but I am that s.o.b."'

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM

He was a great "down to earth man" with no pretensions. When he was returning to Independence as Mr. Citizen, the chauffeur started to carry his bags toward the Truman house. Truman said he'd carry them himself - he was just a regular citizen now.

That kind of self-effacement is unknown now.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:01 AM

Or a saxaphone player.

Subject: BS: Good Ole Harry Truman
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:58 AM

I just got what's below. Food for thought/discussion!

"Good Ole Harry Truman"

When President Truman retired from office in 1952,
his income was substantially a U.S. Army pension
reported to have been $13,507.72 a year. Congress,
noting that he was paying for his stamps and
personally licking them, granted him an 'allowance'
and, later, a retroactive pension of $25,000 per year.

When offered corporate positions at large salaries,
he declined, stating, 'You don't want me. You want
the office of the president, and that doesn't belong
to me. It belongs to the American people and it's
not for sale!'

Even later, on May 6, 1971, when Congress was
preparing to award him the Medal of Honor on his
87th birthday, he refused to accept it, writing, 'I
don't consider that I have done anything which
should be the reason for any award, Congressional
or otherwise.'

Today, many in Congress also have found a way to
become quite wealthy while enjoying the fruits of
their offices. Political offices are now for sale.

Good old Harry Truman was correct when he
observed, 'My choice early in life was either to be
a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician. And
to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference!'