http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?

Subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI_gGnNXR
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

What hope have we?
Put the thread title into Google.
Skipy

Skipy, it was a flawed address so I took it out of the title. If anyone wants to try it, they can copy it from your posting.
el joe clone

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

Cheers
Skipy

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM

A URL that works might be helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI_gGnNXR goes nowhere.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:08 PM

It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI_gGnNXRNc
It's a TV interview in which a Mullah explains that it's wrong to kill innocents, but only Muslims can be innocent. I'm not watching the rest of it.

And it most definitely isn't music.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Toward the end he makes it clear that what he and the people he agrees with want is for the Western countries to remove their military forces from Muslim countries (not to kill all non-Muslims in the rest of the world).

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:41 AM

Idiot (the guy)

An interesting question to ask him would have been why in the last couple of years Muslim terrorists have killed so many more Muslims (innocents in his words) than non-Muslims.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

"...what he and the people he agrees with want is for the Western countries to remove their military forces from Muslim countries..."

except that there seems to be a fairly common feeling that they have some 'right'...or even obligation.. to kill any Westerners who do NOT agree & go home. ANY 'true believer' who feels justified in being judge & jury is, by my definition, flawed, dangerous & as Wolfgang suggests, something of an idiot.

Ignorance fueled by religious fervor...or vice-versa... is a major problem in the world. (and not JUST in Muslim countries.)

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

"Toward the end he makes it clear that what he and the people he agrees with want is for the Western countries to remove their military forces from Muslim countries (not to kill all non-Muslims in the rest of the world)."

Hey Carol, as I recall, that's exactly what Osama bin Laden was saying. I think that's
what the message of 911 was intended to be about. "Get US troops off Muslim soil".

They are still fanatical fundamentalists. And the US acted just like them in Iraq.

Frank

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:49 PM

Well, I don't agree with the guy in the video, but I think it's important to make the distinction between what he was saying and what people seem to think he might have been saying.

However, considering the fact that the US government thinks it has a right to kill anyone in other countries they want for whatever reason they feel warrants it (especially if they're sitting on the oil that we think should belong to us), I don't think any of us here in this country is in a position to point fingers.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM

Heartily agree with you Carol.
I should guess that more so called "christians" have been killed by other so called "christians" in the last century, than any other religeous group - and all in the name of some fella called "god".
As in "In God We Trust" "Gott mit uns" "Dieu et mon droit" etc.
Makes the muslims look like pussies, huh?

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Everybody ends up looking fairly much the same, actually. Wars are fought over land, oil, trade routes, resources, gold, money, and other material considerations like that. God/religion/race/culture is used over and over again as a set of excuses to make a lot of naive people think the killing is not being done for land, oil, trade routes, resources, gold, money, and other material considerations like that. Some are willing to kill for God. They're no worse than those who are willing to kill for money...

Anyone who wants foreign troops off his own land and foreign invaders to be kicked out of his own country is totally justified in feeling so, regardless of his religion.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

What exactly are a 'Muslim countries'?

Think about it. Even though this phrase is thrown about quite often, there's no such thing. The earth has land, ocean, people... Human beings have to live where they can. Nobody has a right to say that his group owns 'the country'.

The Middle East is a diverse place. There are many groups of people there, and all groups have the right to live in peace in dignity, whether Muslim or not.

Besides, even when a country is all one religion. those who want money and power create some new basis for conflict. (I agree with you, Little Hawk.) They split the religion or they fight on the basis of color or language. Or which end of the egg they open first...

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

That's right, they split the religion. There has been much fighting between rival sects of the Muslim faith, just as there have been terrible religious wars over the centuries between different sections of the Christian community...but it's never really about religion...it's about power and wealth, and who gets to have the power and wealth. Power-hungry leaders can always fuel a conflict by dividing people against each other, and religion is just one of several common ways in which they do it.

Ordinary people would mostly rather be left alone to live their lives quietly with their families and not have to go to war. Excuses must always be found to scare them into fearing someone else and going out and fighting him.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

The Western military forces have no right to be in the countries where the guy in the video is objecting to their presence. Suggesting that the term "Muslim countries" is not legitimate is irrelevant to the point the guy in the video was making, which is about sovereignty as opposed to subjugation by an imperialist hegemon.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 06:41 AM

As far as killing innocents goes, they believe that any Muslim who dies to further Islam has a ticket directly to heaven, whereas any non Muslim is doomed. Makes sense to any fanatic.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:24 PM

I am SO CONFUSED!!!! I went out and bought myself a copy of the Koran/Quran/Qur'an. I browsed through the table of contents and my eye lit on Surah (Chapter) 109, which I quote in toto:

1 Say: O disbelievers!
2 I worship not that which ye worship;
3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Sounds to me like a really tolerant religion! Apparently, most of these folks never got as far as 109:6

};-(

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:42 PM

If you choose the most fundamentalist and fanatical members of any religion and judge their whole culture on that basis, you will reach a similarly disturbing conclusion.

I've known a good many Muslims. I never met one yet who thought that "any Muslim who dies to further Islam has a ticket directly to heaven". Most Muslims are Muslims for the same cultural reasons that most Christians are Christians...they were brought up that way! It's their cultural inheritance which they take for granted, and they're used to it. This does not mean they walk around every day obsessed with getting into heaven by killing non-Muslims, and if you think it does then you are displaying the very sort of blind fanaticism that you fear in others.

You can read stuff in the Bible that will make your blood run cold too. Stuff about genocide and all kinds of other vicious atrocities. So what??? Do most modern Christians hold that stuff foremost in their minds and wish to practice it as they go about their daily existence? No. And neither do most Muslims.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:27 PM

Not to disagree with anyone above, and not to get shot as a messenger, and recognizing the limits of translation, and recognizing legitimate variance in interpretation, and recognizing conflicts within documents; but presented here only because it is relevant and a source of disharmony:

008.059 . . .
SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:45 PM

Surah 109 was written many years after 008, and supersedes it

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

Well, would somebody please call Osama! 011-92-64-555-1212

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM

It's interesting, though, that people use quotes from the Qur'an to support the contention that all Muslims are crazed fanatics who want to kill all non-Muslims, while ignoring equally violent and intolerant passages in both the Old and New Testaments. I agree with one of the previous posters. I think that sort of attitude shows the same kind of blind fanaticism as what they are accusing others of displaying.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

Respectfully: That's nonsense. Even if there are people who "use quotes from the Qur'an to support the contention that all Muslims are crazed fanatics who want to kill all non-Muslims," there is no way that throwing words around - any words - is the moral equivalent of flying civilian aircraft into office buildings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBZwBQp3Utc

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 12:51 AM

If governments use that kind of rhetoric to provide cover for invading and occupying countries that are largely populated by Muslims, killing large numbers of people and largely destroying those countries in the process (and they do - for oil and global hegemony), the people of the countries whose governments do that really are not in a position to be pointing fingers at those who fly planes into buildings.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 01:01 AM

Osama gets to decide. He represents whom? Any old Philipino has the moral right to kill me?

Didn't you like my video?

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 01:32 AM

As far as I'm concerned, nobody has any moral right to kill anyone else. No old Philipinos have that right, and neither does the government of the US have a right to go to other countries and kill people who had nothing whatever to do with flying planes into buildings. People like these, for instance...

http://formaementis.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/civilians-killed-by-us-airstrike-in-afghanistan/

But it's a lot easier for governments of countries like the US to get people on board with these kinds of operations if people believe (and many do), that Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims. As I said before, I don't like what the guy in the video in the opening post said, and I don't agree with it. But it's important to make sure that people understand what is really being said, and not be manipulated into believing things that aren't true and that are used to justify even more killing of civilians.


Interesting video. That number nine must be some train.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:08 AM

Correct. No one has the moral right to kill anyone else.

It's my opinion that 911 was an inside job. It was a "false flag" operation. It was not an act of war at all, it was an internal act of sabotage on a grand level, intended to justify future acts of war by the USA. If Osama Bin Laden didn't even do it...or if he had high level American help stateside in doing it...then it blows all the handy propaganda about a war on "terror" right to hell, doesn't it?

You don't make up for the death of 3,000 innocent people in New York by killing 100,000 or more innocent people somewhere else, and that's all I see happening out there. Wars kill mostly innocent people. Ordinary people. Mothers, fathers, and children. People who never attacked anyone, but who just ended up being in the bullseye on the target of some greater imperial objective...like getting Saddam Hussein to stop selling Iraqi oil for Euros rather than dollars.

That is why they invaded Iraq in 2003, and that will be why they attack Iran too. Not because of WMDs, but because of oil revenues, who gets to control them, and what currency they are tied to when the oil is bought and sold.

Iraq didn't cooperate with American financial interests. Iran is not cooperating either. That is what triggers these wars. It has nothing to do with freedom, justice, democracy or anything else noble like that. It has to do with money.

Even in Rome, you couln't fight wars or maintain empires without money. Money was always the key. He with the most money calls the shots...not sometimes...every time...because money buys firepower. He with the most money can afford to field the largest and most effective and most modern military forces. That's how it works.

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:32 AM

The values which we in the West have come to accept, are viewed by the leaders of Islam as a threat.
A threat to civilised life
A threat to Islam
A threat to their power.

They are correct in all three perceptions...Ake

Subject: RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch this video?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 06:39 AM

Little Hawk, before this goes any further, let me clarify. I was not talking about ALL Muslims. I was referring to the extremists.
We have our own extremists...Pat Robertson, a Christian, advocates assassination.