BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

Went looking for more info on Gary Farmer and found him and his band doing some great blues HERE! Great stuff, thanks, again, Bankley.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

bankley, we just watched Dead Man. Gary Farmer was GREAT...made the movie, imo. The whole thing was "different" definitely quirky, but well done. We were surprised to learn it wasn't filmed in Canada as it just *seemed* to have been and we're usually pretty good at guessing on that. Anyway, thanks for mentioning it.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

Stigweard, I was able to open that site on Peltier. He seems to be/have been a real "pain -in-the-ass"....for the US Government that is.
Is there any indication that Mr Obama , once elected (?) might take an interest in this apalling case ?? or Mr McCain ?

From what has been posted so far one sees that the ever popular policy of "Divide and Conquer" has been well utilised among Native Americans, with the usual confluent propaganda by right-wing media also much in use. The mass of US citizens are and have been, just like those of us in other countries, guided, in their thinking on delicate matters such as this.It requires people like the posters to this thread to publicise the alternative viewpoint.
Well done all.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:30 AM

"And if you want major evidence...of carnage and brutality, look at Mexico, Central America, and the Andes mountain cultures."

I made the same point at least twice, but thanks for making it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:07 AM

Some remarks picked up while scanning through the thread:

Again, I am trying to broaden the view and put things in a more proper perspective.

and

Oh blimey - this was a generalisation to illustrate a point, I don't really think every American defends the treatment of the Native Americans any more than I think all Aussies are . . . oh sod it.

and

On balance though I suspect (although I certainly can't prove) that warfare between tribes was probably endemic before Europeans arived.

Barry Finn asked I'd like to see back up & proof that before the white man came that many tribes were more war-like than after the arrivial of the white man.

PDQ is an arguer, no doubt about it. He gets his proper perspective through the lens of an agitator. Though the subject of the thread is a film and the book that spawned it, he must go far afield to dismiss the first one to bring it around to something to fight about.

Barry, there is little dispute that there was a lot of tribal movement and warfare before Europeans arrived. Ironically, some of their worst carnage preceded the physical arrival of the Europeans themselves--their diseases traveled faster, from nation to nation, across the continent. By the time many European settlers came through, they were dealing with far diminished populations and radically altered landscapes. See Calvin Martin's Keepers of the Game for the ethnographic route many anthropologists have followed to document cultural attitudes pre-colonization. I don't agree with Martin's final conclusion, I think he added it up wrong, but most of it is excellent. (And if you want major evidence, via mummified bodies, art, and artifacts, of carnage and brutality, look at Mexico, Central America, and the Andes mountain cultures.)

It has been said in many ways that history is written by the victors. Whether Dee Brown took the point of view of the Dakota/Lakota tribes, or other tribes, there will always be dispute. He selected well-documented charismatic tribes to tell a portion of the story. Regardless of your agreement of the selection of that culture and their placement on the land, his book had a powerful, positive impact when it came out. It didn't right past wrongs but it served as the first vastly popular bestselling account of the point of view of nations defeated by the westward expansion of the European colonists. BTW: Peltier was a fall guy, Brown's or Mathieson's books can't overcome FBI corruption.

Indians in the U.S. are still a colonized people. Many African and Asian nations have been liberated; after centuries of occupation they aren't all doing so well on their own, but some better than others. The recent court decision regarding the billions of dollars the U.S. has supposedly held in trust for tribes was a sham--it came down saying that the Department of the Interior didn't intend to do any harm and gave a puny settlement of 500 million to the tribes. Spread that around and see how far it goes. The woman who brought the case is from Montana, an area covered in Brown's book. Clearly the arrival on the scene of such a historic tome didn't have the effect of actually reversing the congressional and mineral extraction companies' practice of raiding the tribal moneys or resources. At best it might have inspired the judge's application of an expensive band-aid.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:26 AM

Something that always puzzles me is why anybody feels the kind of personal connection with what happened in the past that makes them feel attacked and defensive when talk turns to the crimes and injustices that happpened then.

We weren't there, we didn't have anything to do with what people may have done then.

I suppose there may be a sense that our own posession of what we have today is challenged if we accept that it was taken unjustly from its rightful owners. But as has been noted, that is virtually always the case if you go back far enough into history and prehistory.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:23 AM

" But I do get annoyed when people automatically and unthinkingly seize the 'moral high ground'.

I'm not trying to seize any moral high ground for pity's sake. I read Dee Brown's book years ago and it made one hell of an impression on me; I think I actually cried at one point. My views might seem trite and shallow to you but they're mine and I will be persuaded by a well-reasoned argument, or if new facts are revealed to me that might alter my opinion.

None of my views are unthinking or automatic - how condescending can you get? I really do try to research subjects I feel passionately about but I don't live in America and I don't know any Native Americans; I'd love to hear their views on the subject as they are the people who, as Dee Brown says in her book "see the poverty, hopelessness, and the squalor of a modern Indian reservation".

If objecting to the injustices of the world is taking the moral high ground then so be it, that's me. I recognise the complexity of the situation (I've commented on it and it's relevance but that passes un-noticed) but . . . oh fuck, what am I justifying myself for?

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

I have a booklet which has the Iroquois Articles of Confederation side-by-side with the Constitution of the US. Ben Franklin studied the former before the latter was written. You may read more about it HERE.

Native Americans did not practice wholesale "genocide" on one another as has been characterised. For one, they didn't even have small pox, as well as the other things which have been noted were brought by the white man.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:00 PM

Eyewitness to a Massacre

By Philip Wells, a mixed-blood Sioux who served as an interpreter for the Army. He later recounted what he saw that Monday morning:

"I was interpreting for General Forsyth (Forsyth was actually a colonel) just before the battle of Wounded Knee, December 29, 1890. The captured Indians had been ordered to give up their arms, but Big Foot replied that his people had no arms. Forsyth said to me, 'Tell Big Foot he says the Indians have no arms, yet yesterday they were well armed when they surrendered. He is deceiving me. Tell him he need have no fear in giving up his arms, as I wish to treat him kindly.' Big Foot replied, 'They have no guns, except such as you have found.' Forsyth declared, 'You are lying to me in return for my kindness.'

During this time a medicine man, gaudily dressed and fantastically painted, executed the maneuvers of the ghost dance, raising and throwing dust into the air. He exclaimed 'Ha! Ha!' as he did so, meaning he was about to do something terrible, and said, 'I have lived long enough,' meaning he would fight until he died. Turning to the young warriors who were squatted together, he said 'Do not fear, but let your hearts be strong. Many soldiers are about us and have many bullets, but I am assured their bullets cannot penetrate us. The prairie is large, and their bullets will fly over the prairies and will not come toward us. If they do come toward us, they will float away like dust in the air.' I turned to Major Whitside and said, 'That man is making mischief,' and repeated what he had said. Whitside replied, 'Go direct to Colonel Forsyth and tell him about it,' which I did.

Forsyth and I went to the circle of warriors where he told me to tell the medicine man to sit down and keep quiet, but he paid no attention to the order. Forsyth repeated the order. Big Foot's brother-in-law answered, 'He will sit down when he gets around the circle.' When the medicine man came to the end of the circle, he squatted down. A cavalry sergeant exclaimed, 'There goes an Indian with a gun under his blanket!' Forsyth ordered him to take the gun from the Indian, which he did. Whitside then said to me, 'Tell the Indians it is necessary that they be searched one at a time.' The young warriors paid no attention to what I told them. I heard someone on my left exclaim, 'Look out! Look out!' I saw five or six young warriors cast off their blankets and pull guns out from under them and brandish them in the air. One of the warriors shot into the soldiers, who were ordered to fire into the Indians. I looked in the direction of the medicine man. He or some other medicine man approached to within three or four feet of me with a long cheese knife, ground to a sharp point and raised to stab me He stabbed me during the melee and nearly cut off my nose. I held him off until I could swing my rifle to hit him, which I did. I shot and killed him in self-defense.

Troop 'K' was drawn up between the tents of the women and children and the main body of the Indians, who had been summoned to deliver their arms. The Indians began firing into 'Troop K' to gain the canyon of Wounded Knee creek. In doing so they exposed their women and children to their own fire. Captain Wallace was killed at this time while standing in front of his troops. A bullet, striking him in the forehead, plowed away the top of his head. I started to pull off my nose, which was hung by the skin, but Lieutenant Guy Preston shouted, 'My God Man! Don't do that! That can be saved.' He then led me away from the scene of the trouble."

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:48 PM

{Wavoka (Wovoka is also used) was a loner from the Paiute tribe, a peaceful group mostly in central Nevada}

Wavoka and the Ghost Dance:

"In the summer of 1890, among those who visited Wavoka were two members of the Lakota reservation at Pine Ridge, South Dakota, named Kicking Bear and Short Bull. They became enraptured by Wavoka's faith and even stated that Wavoka levitated through the air above them. Kicking Bear and Short Bull brought Ghost Dance back to Pine Ridge, but in a very different form which lead to totally unexpected results.

Wavoka's faith was based on non-violence with whites. In fact, he even urged his followers not to tell the whites what they were doing. But as interpreted by Kicking Bear and Short Bull, Ghost Dance took on a militaristic aspect. Special garments known as Ghost Shirts were to be worn to deflect bullets fired by white soldiers or settlers. Government agents were permitted to witness the Ghost Dance ceremony and were told what it meant. Kicking Bear and Short Bull added the Indian Messiah would appear to the Lakota in the Spring of 1891.

Ghost Dance came to the Lakota with a fury. All activity at the Pine Ridge Reservation was put aside and the Native peoples adopted this faith with a mania. Government agents and white settlers were terrified by this sudden and (to them) bizarre turn of events. Newspapers spread stories of savage Indians in wild pagan practices. Tensions became overpowering in this region as the Lakota people gave all their waking hours to Ghost Dance. (One government agent, Daniel F. Royer, tried to distract the Lakota by bringing his nephew to Pine Ridge to introduce baseball. It did not work. A missionary named Catherine Weldon offered to debate Kicking Bear on religion, but nothing came of it.)

Blame for Ghost Dance was placed on two people. Wavoka was traced as the father of the Ghost Dance and was interviewed by James Mooney, an ethnologist and anthropologist with the Smithsonian Institute. Wavoka passed a message to Mooney that he would control any militaristic uprising among the Native peoples in return for financial and food compensation from Washington. The offer was ignored. And blame was also put on Sitting Bull, the chief medicine man of the Lakota people. Ironically, Sitting Bull was apathetic to Ghost Dance and only allowed its introduction at Pine Ridge with great caution. His initial qualms were realized: government agents considered Sitting Bull responsible solely due to his leadership role among the Lakota. Tribal police were dispatched to arrest him, but his apprehension resulted in conflict when several Lakota fought to protect him. Sitting Bull was killed in the crossfire on December 15, 1890.

Fourteen days after Sitting Bull's fatal shooting, the U.S. Army sought to relocate and disarm the Lakota people, who failed to stop their Ghost Dance. On the frozen plains at Wounded Knee on the Pine Ridge Reservation, government troops opened fire...killing 290..."

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:09 PM

Sorry to Stigweard for 'flying off the handle'. But I do get annoyed when people automatically and unthinkingly seize the 'moral high ground'.

Another point you make:

"So what? Different societies, different moral codes."

I don't actually go along with 'cultural relativism' - go too far down that road and you can find yourself supporting infanticide, female circumcision, slavery, wife beating, human sacrifice, cannibalism etc., etc.

I think that Barry Finn makes a good point. From what I've read the influx of Europeans into North America created huge tensions within and between the various aboriginal populations. And the introduction of guns, steel edged weapons, horses etc. didn't help either - neither did setting tribe against tribe in competition for furs and other natural resources.
In addition the historian George E. Hyde describes in his book 'Indians of the High Plains' (University of Oklahoma Press, 1959)a sort of horrifying 'secret' (or forgotten) history of the Great Plains region in which certain tribes were recruited by the Spaniards as slavers. He maintained that once populous and powerful tribes, like the Padouca, were so thoroughly eradicated by this practice that only their name remains (as place names - 'Padouca Falls' etc.).

On balance though I suspect (although I certainly can't prove) that warfare between tribes was probably endemic before Europeans arived. Some parts of aboriginal North America seem to have been quite populous with quite a high level of organisation (think of the 'Mound Builders' of the Mississipi Valley or various cultures in the South West). Growing populations would have led to competition for recources and, probably inevitably, warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

I'd like to see back up & proof that before the white man came that many tribes were more war-like than after the arrivial of the white man. I know there was raiding & thieft, kidnapping to infuse new blood to a tribe to protect them from the mixing of blood lines that grew to close but I'd love to see proof showing large scale killing & wholsesale massacare & wanton bloodletting pre the white man as a norm. Of all that I've read I can't find that being an Indian trait before the white man or Spanish, maybe I missed some hidden chapter.

As far as recent history, I was given a loan of a film by some of the MicMac's I work with of a tape taken by a Souix woman of the island raid by provincial police, somewhere along the Canadian side of the St Lawerance must've been during the late 80's or very early 90's of the surrounding of an island & the blockading of a bridge perventing the native school children from returning home from school. A battle erupted with the native community trying to rescue their kids while preventint the prov's from overrunning their community & it was all over the native people signing away their fishing rights. Once they give in to the demands, giving up more of the rights they had to catching fish the battle/standoff was ended. So much for our modern treatment of the people of the 1st nations.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

"Not THIS American! Please do not generalise."

Oh blimey - this was a generalisation to illustrate a point, I don't really think every American defends the treatment of the Native Americans any more than I think all Aussies are . . . oh sod it.

It does raise a good point though. There's plenty of times I've been labelled as complicit in the actions of my country's government in Ireland simply for being British, even though I personally regard them with the same disgust as many of the accusers; we pay for the sins of our countrymen past and present.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

Histiry is a catalogue of injustice, and clean hands are pretty scarce. But there are some historic crimes which perhaps stand out from the pack.

The Holocaust is one such in recent history, the Atlantic Slave Trade is another, and the ethnic cleansing of the native population associated with the expansion of the United States is arguably another.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Americans defending the treatment of the Indians Not THIS American! Please do not generalise.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:14 PM

beachcomber: Leonard Peltier.

As Buffy St. Marie once said "The bullets don't match the gun!".

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

"Of course it was wrong!! What do you think I am - some sort of moral imbecile! I really do get tired of people who look for the slightest excuse to loudly trumpet their moral superiority to everyone else."

Not at all - I'm simply arguing the point. You have no idea of my moral outlook so best not attempt to guess.

OK, you're a saint for following the accepted 'party line' - and I'm not for having a slightly different point of view - happy now"

Good one. I was just entering into the spirit of robust debate, but time and again people take the hump when questioned over remarks they made. What's the point in debating if we're not willing to have our own viewpoints challenged or listen to the viewpoints of others? How do we learn? I'm here to be persuaded by a cogent and well-argued point.

"The point that I was trying to make is that Native Americans and European settlers were all human beings and all capable of making the same moral choices."

So what? Different societies, different moral codes. Sounds a little like a judgement call to me. Are you arguing the Sioux were partially responsible for their own downfall because of the warlike nature of Native American society? To quote a passage from the introduction of Brown's book "They (readers) may be surprised to hear words of gentle reasonableness coming from the mouths of Indians stereotyped in the American myth as ruthless savages."

"I am convinced that distorting history, to make it fit with various dubious moral agendas, won't help us achieve any of these goals."

I agree utterly, but I don't think Dee Brown's book is pushing a dubious moral agenda - what gives you this impression?

(BTW Shimrod: for what it's worth I thought your last point on the Thatcher thread was spot on, but the thread was closed before I could post. )

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

Shimrod has spoken ! I'd say.
A very succinct summation of what the telling of History should be all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM

Repeat what GUEST,Shimrod said. Great post.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:50 AM

Stigweard,

Of course it was wrong!! What do you think I am - some sort of moral imbecile! I really do get tired of people who look for the slightest excuse to loudly trumpet their moral superiority to everyone else. OK, you're a saint for following the accepted 'party line' - and I'm not for having a slightly different point of view - happy now?

The point that I was trying to make is that Native Americans and European settlers were all human beings and all capable of making the same moral choices. Some Europeans fought, lied, cheated and committed acts of genocide; whilst others fought to make a better life for themselves and their families. Many Native Americans seemed to be addicted to warfare and were not averse to committing acts of genocide themselves (often against other Native Americans) - they also did everything they could to protect and nurture their families.

A subsidiary point: in the particular case of the Sioux, it is often stated that white settlers "stole their land", but it has been forgotten that the Sioux were, themselves, recent invaders of that land and had displaced other occupiers and/or committed genocidal acts against them.

It seems to me that what we should be doing now is:

- Learning the lessons of history - in particular that we're all human beings and all capable of cruelty or kindness.

- Doing everything in our power to ensure that everyone has a full, happy and fulfilled life (including Native Americans, or the descendants of European settlers in the Americas - or even Brits like me!).

- Doing everything in our power to ensure that all humans live in harmony with the Earth and its resources.

I am convinced that distorting history, to make it fit with various dubious moral agendas, won't help us achieve any of these goals.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:27 AM

My god , as usual, it's an education to read these posts of so many well-informed mudcatters. Ashamedely I have to confess my ignorance of the "Leonard Peltier" reference ? An Indian's Rights Activist I take it ?
My first contact with American History was the "Buffalo Bill" Annual of 1952(?) and in between that and "Bury my Heart..." it seems that there is quite an amount of sifting to do still.
Little Hawk your "Cat Name" suggests that you are an American Native ?

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:24 AM

That should be `To hell or Barbados`, it must have been the stiff drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:43 AM

"You missed the point (as always) which was this: The US treatment was an order of magnitude better than the Spanish treatment of native peolpes in Mexico. We need a movie on what happened there, or are you going to show us your brilliant command of that subject and do it yourself?"

So your argument is because one group of people were treated like shit another group who were also treated like shit (but less so in your view) should count their blessings and shut up?

Nice.

"I suspect that if the Sioux had invaded Europe the fate of many of the inhabitants would have been similar to the actual fate of the Sioux - perhaps even worse."

Well that's all right then! They brought it on themselves, as their imperfect, warlike society was so corrupt it deserved to be wiped out and educated by the clever whiter man. Complex? Not initially it wasn't. When it to comes down to it the white settlers wanted the land and resources the natives lived on, so they lied. cheated them and forced them off their lands, and they're still off them today. The situation becomes more complex because now lots of people live on stolen land who had nothing to do with the original clearances so how do you reconcile those differences? Hmmm, we've been here before in recent history...

All I see is a record stuck in the groove; Americans defending the treatment of the Indians, Aussies defending the treatment of the Aborigines, British defending the treatment of the Irish etc. At the end of the day, give a white man a gun and he will forcibly take what he wants regardless, and if whoever he's confronting doesn't agree he then BAM! The same old story.

Until you admit it was wrong, no moving forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:30 AM

PDQ, On the treatment of native peoples read, `To hell or Bermuda` by Sean O`Callaghan, can be had on Amazon, when reading, make sure you have a stiff drink by your side.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:28 PM

"In 1993, the Irish began their own annual ceremony in Clifden, Co. Galway, John Riley's hometown, and in 1997, Irish President Mary Robinson traveled to Mexico City to lay a wreath at the base of the San Patricios' Memorial." From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:06 PM

bankley, thanks for the recommended movies. I loved Smoke Signals; bought the soundtrack right after I saw it. I have just ordered up Dead Men from Netflix. Sounds good. People in this country don't know poverty until they've been to a reservation, esp. the Rosebud.

I'd love to hear your song, too, bankley. What you posted scans well and tells the truth.

Some rather interesting info about the Irish in Mexico HERE.

I have not seen this and know nothing about its veracity, but i did think this was interesting, too: Captain from Castille.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM

.... I better let it go at that.... but it's a subject close to my heart.... meanwhile I'll welcome my friend and brother Splitting the Sky to the Ottawa area for a series of talks coinciding with the big war-makers trade show on Sept 30th/Oct01st..at Lansdowne Park.... "Secure Canada 2008.."    secure us from what ???

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM

hence the Metis... Scots and French.... still waiting for Canada to pardon Louis Riel for treason, a 'father of confederation' (Manitoba) .. twice elected, could not serve due to the Orange bounty on his head....

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:49 PM

The Spanish treated the native peoples badly all right. But (like the French to some extent) they didn't displace them and replace them in the way English speaking invaders did.

Latin American populations overall have a far greater proportion of native American in their ancestry than white Americans have.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:13 PM

and how many Lakota do you actually know? and what are their thoughts on this.... btw... the poorest county in the USA is Pine Ridge.... this is kinda like a bunch of white cats talkin' about slavery... I personally know warriors who have been on the wrong end of the gun... any Indians here at the Cafe ? Nah, too busy trying to get some clean drinking water, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

"The reality is much more complex."

Ain't that the truth.

Look into stories about the Comanche and Kiowa raids into the territory now called Mexico. Take everything of value including food and livestock, then kill every male and take the teenage girls home for breeding. Lovely folks, eh?

As far as territorial expansion, both the Apache and Navajo were in what is now Canada when Columbus landed in 1492, although this is being removed from text books as not correct (actually, it is because it is not PC). The Navajo wound up with the largest US reservation, the size of a small state.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM

In the 1820s fur traders, using the Missouri to get to and from their hunting grounds, were regularly attacked by the Arikaras, who lived in earth lodge villages on one section of the river.

In 1823 a US Army expeditionary force, under General Leavenworth, was sent up the river to punish them. Leavenworth's army included Sioux mercenaries. After bombarding the villages Leavenworth allowed the Arikaras to retreat under cover of darkness. The Sioux were furious - they wanted to massacre the lot!

From the end of the Eighteenth Century onwards the various tribes of the Pawnee Confederacy - who were also earth lodge dwellers - were regularly decimated by smallpox (caught from Europeans, of course). The Sioux seized on this opportunity to regularly raid the weakened Pawnees, stealing their crops and horse herds and killing them whenever they could.

Books like 'Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee' have, I am convinced, left many people believing that the Sioux were like innocent, nature-loving, deeply spiritual hippies who skipped about happily on the prairies until wicked, evil white men came along and wiped them out. Most of the other tribes, like the Arikaras and the Pawnees have been forgotten.

The reality is much more complex. Of course the European settlement of the N. American continent had a devastating effect on its native inhabitants. But those inhabitants often preferred fighting each other to repelling the invaders. And they were often at least as cruel and merciless as those invaders.

Bear in mind also that the Sioux were themselves invaders. Although they (strictly speaking the Teton Dakota) are now associated with the Great Plains region, centred on the Black Hills, they didn't move there until the end of the Eighteenth Century (actually they were driven westward by the Ojibwa). They then found themselves at war with the real natives of the region - earth lodge dwelling farmers like the Arikaras, Mandan, Hidatsas and Pawnees.

I suspect that if the Sioux had invaded Europe the fate of many of the inhabitants would have been similar to the actual fate of the Sioux - perhaps even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM

PDQ...there was also no love lost between Geronimo and the Spanish.. a couple of more recent films were made about him...

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM

there's some good documentaries out that deal with some of these things... "Ballad of Crowfoot" by Willie Dunn is an older Canadian standard and the 1st music video in this country... also, 'The Other Side of the Ledger'... a Native look at the Hudson's Bay Co. (which was actually banned for awhile here and finally released after garnering acclaim in the UK... something about not upsetting the HBC on the occasion of their 300th anniversary)... 'The Voice of Our Land is in our Language'... another good one dealing with elders and the disappearance of native languages.... all films by Dunn...

Also .."Smoke Signals" an all aboriginal production with Adam Beach (Windtalkers, The Rez) and "Dead Man" with Johnny Depp and my buddy Gary Farmer whose 1st line in the film is spoken to a gunshot greenhorn (Depp) dying in the wilderness... "Stupid fucking white man!".... he goes on to save his life and takes him an an extraordinary odessy...

so it's good to see what Natives are doing and saying for themselves within the film-making industry.... the humour helps a lot... Shelly Niro's "Honey Mocassin" is an off the wall comical B-movie, part of an arts tour called 'Reservation X'

and 'Rabbit Proof Fence' is a must.... based on a true story with Australian residential schools as a backdrop.....

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM

Again, I am trying to broaden the view and put things in a more proper perspective.

At the start of the French & Indian War, the continent of North America (for argument sake, let's start at the current location of the Panama Canal and go north to the pole) was claimed by three European countries: France, England and Spain.

By far, the lion share was by Spain. The least, the area we call New England and a part of the Hudson Bay, was claimed by England. France claimed a huge area in the middle of the future US.

The US people drove England out by force. We bought the Louisiana Purchase, and, joined by natives, pushed the Spanish back south. The final border was not established until the Gadsden Purchase from Mexico, after Spain abandoned Mexico in 1821 when they realized that the great promise of gold and wealth was never going to happen. In fact, Mexico was costing Spain more than it returned.

The borders of Canada and the US were determined by the people of those countries. The native people were always involved in important decisions. As far as Mexico, it is an abritrary counrty, an area that was imposed by a foriegn (European) country: Spain. They did not involve the natives, they subjugated them and killed anyone who posed a problem.

The California missions may be fun to visit, but the violent and oppressive nature (and forced Catholic conversion) by father Junipero Sera was brutile. Most of the Anglo population in California were peacefully coexisting with the Indians, the Spanish were not. The 250-strong group that accepted the formal resignation of Pio Pico was led by John C. Fremont, but 3/4 of the men were American Indian in full cerimonial dress, who were more than happy to see the Spanish era end.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

Yes, that was the first one that came to my mind too.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: TIA
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:18 PM

pdq - watch "The Mission" with Robert DeNiro.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

I can't think of any nation that has treated others fairly. Not one, and it continues today.

Perhaps we need a movie about humanity's inhumanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

pdq - There already have been a few such movies about the extreme Spanish mistreatment of the Indians. I'd be glad to see a few more of them anytime. We have no argument on that score.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM

The friggin' Conquistadors didn't treat the Gypsies too well either, but I doubt if we'll see a movie about Roma galley slaves... too bad, but it might not go over in Italy at this time...(Arrivederchi Roma !)

I wish that those days were all behind us.... but, 'fraid not

so I'd like to leave you with a verse from a song I wrote called 'Promised Land '... it's about as close as your going to get today about movie I'd also like to see,,,, Mel Gibson's bullshit aside

"Columbo sailed for the Indies, he got lost along the way,
Never made it past Turtle Island, he had nowhere else to stay
And the Natives there were much too generous to his syphillus-ridden band
So Christos exclaimed 'For Dios and Spain, I claim the promised land !' "

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

I said there should be another movie about the Spanish treatment of American native people. If you want to start your inevitable argument, argue with yourself. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

pdq - You're quite right that the Spanish (and the Portuguese) behaved even worse toward the Indians in their conquered areas than did the Americans (while in Canada the British authorities behaved a fair bit better to their Indian tribes...but still not very nicely, I wouldn't say).

So? So what?

What's that got to do with this particular movie? It is not a case here of drawing comparisons with who is better or worse is it? It's a case of telling a specific historical tale about something that happened in the USA. Injustices occurred, and that's what the movie is about, correct?

It seems to make you feel uncomfortable for some reason...

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

It depends on which tribe. Some maintained their culture almost intact, other not, and all steps in between. There are about 500 recognized Indian tribes in the US, how many in Mexico? How much better is the treatment of native peoples in Canada than it is in the US or Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

it's all sordid.... sure the folks that brought us the Inquisition were a particularly psychopathic bunch... but "los gringos" also murdered their way west with inpunity...

in reference to my last posting... I feel that this 29th paragraph in the document dated July 04th, 1776 set the tone for the displacement and ethnic cleansing that continued with new fervor

The 'he' being referred to is King George 111...

   "He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."


so much for Osama bin Pontiac...

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

The "old ways" were forbidden for long enough to break the generational teaching/learning which really does kind of mean that the old ways were taken by breaking the chain.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

Stigweird,

You missed the point (as always) which was this: The US treatment was an order of magnitude better than the Spanish treatment of native peolpes in Mexico. We need a movie on what happened there, or are you going to show us your brilliant command of that subject and do it yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: Stu
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:07 PM

"Most American Indians can practise the old ways if they want, not if they don't. Reservations are considered autonomous separate nations but the people are US citizens and can vote."

Er, not on their land they can't as they were lied to and cheated and forced off it. And if there are valuable mineral deposits there: Uranium for example, or the Black Hills of Dakota etc etc.

Stupid white men again.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Perhaps the same people could do an unbiased show about the treatment of native people by the Spanish conquistadors in Mexico (and points south). They killed all the leaders, medical people, political leaders, teachers and historians. The natives had to convert to Roman Catholicism, give up their history and culture, and become good little workers bees in the new Euro-centric society. They even had to learn to like bull fighting, cock fighting, dog fighting and other Spanish blood sports.

As bad as some think the American Indians were treated, the Mexican natives were treated an order of magnitude worse. Most American Indians can practise the old ways if they want, not if they don't. Reservations are considered autonomous separate nations but the people are US citizens and can vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: bankley
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM

he was railroaded..and kangarooed.... Clinton almost pardoned him but the FBI had a big protest... don't look for GWB for support.. he'll be busy pardoning the real criminals in Brookes Brothers suits.. so not only was Wounded Knee a study in US history... it's a look at the continuing polices of the gov't toward the original inhabitants of this land....the first 'terrorists', as so mentioned in the Declaration of Independence....

Subject: RE: BS: Film; Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

Leonard Peltier

I take issue with the requirements that Canada used to extradite him!

An extradition judge must order committal if there is any evidence, whether direct or circumstantial, upon which a jury could convict. In making this determination, the extradition judge cannot test the quality or reliability of the evidence, weigh the evidence, or consider the credibility of witnesses. These are matters reserved for the judge or jury at trial in the requesting state.

We would like him back please!