BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....

Subject: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:05 AM

Well, there is a reason that the McCain camp is hammering away with the "Obama doesn't have enough experience" line of attack and that reason is that...

...it gives people who wouldn't vote for a black candidate to feel all warm and fuzzy inside and have their alibi laid out for them so they don't have to confront themselves or be confronted about their racist values...

This is the #1 codified reason to let racists off the hook...

(But, Bobert, McCain has alot more experience in the Seante than does Barak Obama...)

So??? How much experience does McCain have running an organization??? I mean, neither Obama not McCain have much experience running an orghanization other than...

...the runnuing of their campaigns and if one would compare the organization and discipline of the two campaigns objectively one would have to come to the conclusion that Obama is the better manager...

So, when I hear someone say "but he just doesn't have the experience" I hear "I won't vote for a black man"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

McCain has supervised his house keepers on occaision but the housholds are mostly Cindy's domain.
He also has hire and fire authority over his Congressional staff.

He takes orders very well which suits him well to a modern USS Presidency.

Republican racism is implicit enough to not really require code words. However I concede that words like "scary" have racist overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM

It's hard to disagree with you on that, Bobert--but let's face it, the people who say that are just looking for a reason to justify what they were going to do anyway.

I have a neighbor who looks like she is getting sick whenever Obama comes up in discussion. Up to now, her standard response to him has been "I just don't know where he stands on things." This excuse is a gift for her, because Obama tends to be pretty clear about where he stands on things--

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM

When people say he doesn't have enough experience my reply is " So how good of a job are the experienced guys doing right now ?". Also - this may be just a rumor so I need to check the facts - but I've heard that Obama has spent almost twice as much time in congress as Abe Lincoln did. Some folks think Abe was a pretty good president.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: olddude
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Wesley
from your lips to God's ears
Amen Brother !!

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

Abe was in the House from March 4, 1847 – March 3, 1849.

Obama started in the Senate in 2005. There is an interesting article in the NYTs about that and beyond HERE. I remember his keynote speech, four years ago, and thinking "I want HIM for President!"

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

There are going to be people, even some long-time Democrats, who will never be able to find it in their hearts to elect a Black man as President. This is unfortunate, but reality. This is the only reason that this race is close. All the typical issues that divide us, abortion, taxes, gay marriage etc. would have been snowed under by the shear arrogant incompetence of the last eight years. McCain, while trying to play up his reputation as a maverick, has actually moved considerably to the right even after winning the nomination against more right leaning candidates. This shows doubt as to the turnout from the right wing of his own party on election day. In some ways Barack Obama is a riskier pick for the Dems in that a middle aged white man may have been a shoe-in. In my opinion it it a risk well worth taking. Senator Obama is a vibrant intelligent leader who surrounds himself with seasoned non-sycophantic advisors. He will do everything in his power to right our ship of state. Notice I said in his power, which in our system is absolutely not limitless, so I don't expect miracles. I do expect competence, rationality and better relations with the rest of the world. I don't expect our government to suddenly be independent of the corporate influence that has made it more of an oligarchy than a republic but, I do expect a government that hasn't been gift wrapped and placed under the corporate Christmas tree.
    Hopefully enough people will put aside their fears and prejudices and do the right thing. If so then we have a chance to see the dawn of a new era in this country. If not it will be the same old same old,
and life will go on, albeit much less happily.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: olddude
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

That seems to be the biggest difference between the parties for me. You won't see a black man or woman as a candidate for the Republicans. I could never figure out why McCain would remain with that party. Remember when he ran against Bush as a candidate for the Republicans. His own Party told everyone that he fathered an illigitmate black child when the truth was he and Cindy adopted the little girl from India.

Who in the world would remain in a Party that is so bigoted ?
disturbs me to no end. I am waiting just waiting to see what kind of swift boat deal the creeps try to pull on Obama.

I also think that he is the only hope right now to correct the terrible course that was set by Bush. A complete disgrace to america and heart breaking to see what was done to this and other countries over the last 8 years under his watch. We need to vote if never before if we hope to right the ship as you so well stated

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

George W. Bush offered the VP spot to Colin Powell in 2000. He said no, he wanted to be Secretary of State, not VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: olddude
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

PDQ
I stand corrected, you are right. He did offer that to Powell. It is always a mistake to generalize but it is hard not to lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:16 PM

There are a lot of demoralised Republicans who are not going to vote because they don't like McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

P diddy
might be code

but 'uppidy' is straight up racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:41 PM

That would be a fine mantra to chant if it were true.

The way it sounds now is that you're just making excuses because you know he can't win on his ideas (or lack thereof) alone.


It's an excuse, anyway.

Nobody said it had to be a good one.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM

Inside the Republican platform commitee they don't say black or hispanic, they say "coloration".

"The coloration of Washington DC is such that we can not expect any Republican votes in the near furutre so we move to eliminate one of their electoral college votes."

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

Though I am not a Republican, and happen to think a lot of the same stuff about the Republican party that Bobert does--I take exception to the idea that Republicans are inherently racists--it isn't true. Lincoln was a Republican, and up until recently, many Republicans, particularly in the South, were strong advocates for Civil Rights.

The Bush Presidents, whatever else you make think of them, have done some surprisingly good things in pursuit of civil rights. I won't bore you with the details, but maybe pdq can find them (Susu's Hubby has an aversion to facts of any kind)

On the other hand, I certainly remember hearing greasy-haired Dixiecrats tossing around "The N Word" as casually as if it were a prounoun.

The real truth is that neither they, in their day, nor McCain, nor even the political hacks who create his political messages really believe any of that "racist" stuff--they just say it, then outright, now in code, because they want the support of people who do believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:15 PM

I think Americans are not giving other Americans enough credit. The people you know, those around you, those with whom you interact on a daily basis know in their hearts and heads what has happened to your country under the regime of Bush and Cheney. There will be sufficient voters who DO choose to see past the man's skin colour and vote for him. Because they know it will be the end of America if they don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM

Its my understanding that those greasy-haired dixiecrats, since LBJ, have been the backbone of the Republican party in the South.

Nixon, tossed Lincoln out of the party with his "southern strategy."

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:33 PM

JtS, that is crap. The Southern Democrats, thankfully, are mostly gone.

The new South is far more Christian, the backbone of the Republican Party. They are for equal opportunity for all Americans because it is the right thing to do. The Republicans were founded as a coalition of groups with varied agendas but all had one goal in common: end slavery. Period.

The allegiances were re-drawn by Franklin D. Roosevelt in the 1932 election and remain pretty much what we see today.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:18 PM

In my opinion, the democrat party has done more to keep racism in the culture rather than trying to eliminate it, when in reality, Obama is not preaching anything different than any losing candidate has preached in the numerous past elections.

In fact, if MLK Jr. was alive today, and was running for president, he'd probably be winning, in my opinion. I think he would have made an awesome president. Unlike Jesse, Al, or any other of the other so called "civil rights leaders". Those guys are just media whores and could care less about civil rights. They don't want the same rights. They already have those. They want more than what anybody else has. Or they could be just pandering to keep their names in the headlines.

They wouldn't be able to do that if "racism" didn't exist.

Now I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. From time to time it rears its ugly head and when it does, the media seems to turn it into more than what it really is.

What is it, really?

Well...IMO, it's a few stupid people out there that give the rest a bad name.

Just like Jesse and Al and a select other few do to the democrat party.

But like I said......

In My Opinion.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:39 PM

"'So, when I hear someone say "but he just doesn't have the experience" I hear "I won't vote for a black man"...'"




          Have you had your ears checked?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:45 PM

It's not the ears at fault, It's what's between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road)
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM

Of course racism is operative here. If Obama was a white guy, the candidate would be Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:48 AM

Race won't matter much, McSham can't figure out how to play the cards he's been dealt without offending some section of the public he's hoping to recruit. He's nasty enough, just not smart enough.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

"Of course racism is operative here."


I totally agree with that statement. But not for the reason that some of you may think.

How much does Obama's race really help/hurt him in this race?

If you think about it that way then some can say that you're thinking in a "racist point of view". That's not saying that you're racist though.

If you like him because of his ideas and the way that he makes you feel good and warm when you listen to him speak then fine. But if you add that....Oh...he's also black. Then you're really no different than those who try to use race as a negative.

My point...

Vote for the man if you like his ideas.

Don't vote for him if the only thing you like about him is the fact that he is african-american. You run the risk of getting something that you just didn't quite bargain for.

I live in Texas, and believe me, there are more than just a few racists found here. A lot of times, somebody will come up to me and want to talk about it and in just a few seconds I can tell where they're coming from and just what idiots they truly are.

But I guess you can find them on both sides. My grandfather was very racist. My dad had racial tendencies. They both voted staunch democrat (well...my dad did vote for Nixon.) But I'm willing to listen to at least at what the ideas are and how they're going to be implemented. I tend not to look at things in shades but that's exactly what this thread was designed to do.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

Your point is a good one, Bobert, and I agree with it. But Susu's Hubby also has a good point. It cuts both ways. One shouldn't vote either for OR against Barack Obama on account of his race. One should vote on account of his policies, his record, his character, his ideas, his performance, and his capabilities. His race should have nothing to do with it...but for a lot of people it does. Some of those people will vote for him because of race, and some will vote against him because of race. Now why the heck should anyone worry about what race he belongs to????????? But they do, don't they? It's a real problem, and it grows out of a longstanding cultural problem in America that goes right back to the days of slavery and the Civil War. People have got to somehow get past it and deal with other people just as other human beings, not as racial symbols. I wonder if they ever will? Obama strove mightily in the early days of his campaign to rise above issues of race entirely, but those divisive issues kept being raised by other people and by the media regardless. It's like some kind of chronic psychological disease in the USA.

*****

Now just consider how this kind of dynamic plays out in the Chongo campaign as well. It's even worse!

"He's too inexperienced" = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

"He's so ugly" = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

"He's a violent drunk" = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

"He has made some chauvinist remarks about women." = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

"I don't know what he really stands for..." = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

"Can I trust him to defend America against foreign enemies?" = "I won't vote for a chimp! They're poop-throwers."

Yes, the APP is well aware of the unstated specism that underlies people's superficial and largely insincere rhetoric about why they would hesitate to vote for Chongo Chimp.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

The only people who run for president with the experience of being president are first term presidents seeking re-election

Like Dubya in 2004, for example. Not such an impressive example.

Kennedy was younger than Obama when he became president. So was Clinton. So was Teddy Roosevelt. And Abraham Lincoln has been senator for a shorter period.

If people say they don't want to vote for Obama because they don't like his politics, that's one thing. But "he hasn't got the experience" - that sounds like code for something a lot nastier.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM

If you REALLY want someone with experience, there's always Dick Cheyney.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

Not too fear, Hub...

I ain't voting for McCain because he advocates policies which are not in the best interest of the vast majority of the population iof the United States and I am voting (and working for) Obama for the exact opposite reasons...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

I don't have a vote in this - not my country, thank heaven. But I can't see any reality in the statement that if Obama were a white man, the candidate would be Hillary.

I liked and respected Hillary Clinton at the beginning of her campaign, but the spite shown to Obama put me right off her.

The intellectual strength and the grace and idealism he's show has made me (cautiously) like him. Cautiously, because I don't know enough about him and his record.

After all, I liked Clinton too, the male one that is, until he refused a pardon to a brain-damaged man on Death Row when he was governor and running for the Democratic nomination.

But so far, Obama looks like a decent man.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

I think Bobert's opening message has a lot of truth to it.

But Susu's Hubby has a point, too, at least in part. It might be that Osama's race helped him during the primary process but will hurt in the general election, when voters who would never think of participating in the Democratic proimaries become a factor. And those are the very people who Bobert is describing pretty accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:22 PM

The thing I find really ironic is that some people think he's not white enough...because he's half black...while others think he's not black enough...because he's half white! The mind boggles. As if it mattered!

I could see it a lot more if they were worried about him being half-stupid or half-crazy...which he clearly is not. ;-) That would actually matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:24 AM

"Now I'm not saying that it [racism] doesn't exist. From time to time it rears its ugly head and when it does, the media seems to turn it into more than what it really is."

I take it you be a White, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:17 AM

The racismwe are talking about here isn't the overt form like hanging nooses... It's the more incidiuos form where people are so programed that they are *unaware* that they are racist and parroting codified phrases that the right wing has been carefully pedeling... That is really what this thread is about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM

The fiction that an old white guy is experienced relies on the steroeotype that an old white guy knows the score.

McCain spent 30 years to advance to the rank of Captain in the Navy. People I know make Captain in about 15 years.
He may try but he does not quite know the score.
He knows who exactly have set themselves up as the true power of the United States but unfortunatly those people have no respect for the Constitution and are only in the money power game for themselves and not the American people.

McCain graduated with 99.5% of his class above him.

The wise old grandfather image is an empty suit.

McCain has never had an executive position.

Whenever you have a political or personal weakness you ALWAYS accuse the opponent of that weakness first.

ergo they accuse;   Obama has no experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

To me, Obama's race does matter. It's a signal, a symbol if you will, to a mostly non-white world that there is change afoot. As for his being half-black, half-white and not the descendant of American slaves- hey, what better way to ease him past the immature, fearful, ethnocentric minority in this country. It just may help them grow up.

I am not voting for Obama because of his mixed race- it's just a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:01 AM

It's called the Democratic Party, Hub.

I think after last night it has been well-demonstrated that he can win on his ideas, and will probably do so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM

"I am not voting for Obama because of his mixed race-"



                  I'm not voting for Obama for that reason either...

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:58 PM

"I'm not voting for Obama for that reason either...

Meaning, it would appear that Riginslinger won't vote for Obama because you doesn't like the idea of a "mixed race" president?

Is that a genuine statement of the way Riginslinger thinks, or just an unconsidered off-the cuff joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

I think I know where you got yer handle there, Confused...

Yo, MaG... Rigs is waitin' for Cynthia McKinney to get nominated...

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:13 PM

I think Rig was poking fun at the ambiguous phrasing of the previous remark.

Bobert was on the money a few messages ago where he tried to re-emphasize that it's unconsicous racism that's the problem. Check that ~ I should say "a" problem, not "the".

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

Rig is no racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

But I sure got a way a' gettin' into trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

Yeah and no, Rigs... No to racist and yeah to trouble... *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

A caller into Cspan was racist. She outright said she didn't think ANY of us should vote for a "black muslim!" I'll bet she was terrified of Malcolm X back when.

The new generations coming up in this country are colour-blind, literally, when it comes to skin tone. My daughters have neither one made any references to skin colour even though one has twins who are biracial. I was watching a snippet of MLKJr. giving his speech on tv yesterday and crying. When Morgan asked me why I was sad, I told him way back when some people believed black people didn't have any rights as white people. His comment was to look at MLKJr. and say, "Oh! He IS black!" Bless his heart, he has never ever known that as a factor and I can only hope he forgets and forgives me for even mentioning it, at least at his tender age.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Maybe it's to do with different television systems changing the colour shows up on screens, but I keep on seeing "black" people on TV programmes from the USA who are paler than some of the "white" people.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: fumblefingers
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:01 PM

I had no idea that "not enough experience" was a code phrase for a black guy. I had a black heart surgeon do a quintuple heart bypass operation on me a couple of years ago.

Had I heard that he didn't have "enough experience," should I have demanded a white, brown, red or yellow replacement?

In Obama's case, he doesn't have enough experience and saying so isn't code, it's the truth.

--

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:07 PM

But those of us witj black hearts understand what you men.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:15 PM

Bill Clinton was a "black and white' sort of guy...













heart and liver respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:16 PM

Oh, Dr FREud . . . .

"But those of us witj black hearts understand what you men."

MEAN!

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:47 PM

The whole point of "code" is that it doesn't actually state what is meant, but does enable what is mean to be communicated.

I suppose "Obama star sign is Leo, and I could never vote for a Leo" woudl do just as well as "he lacks experience" - better now that 72 year-old McCain has chosen young Sarah Palin as his running mate and replacement if he snuffs it.

"Nudge, nudge, wink wink, say no more squire..."

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:18 PM

For most of you guys, "I am voting for McCain" or "I didn't vote for Obama" would work just as well as anything else.

I'm surprised you don't see how destructive and non-post-racial it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

"I won't vote for a.... flake"

             I'm going to put the name of my dog, Walter, into nomination for the office of president. He never lies to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:47 PM

And I'm going to vote for my pet Walter, a...













Pigeon.

Subject: RE: BS: Code phrases = I won't vote for a....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

..Except that he actually does have enough experience, compared to some of the most respected Presidents in history.

...Except that he has more than demonstrated his managerial talent.

..Except that he has demonstrated executive competence far beyond that of the current incumbent OR his current opponent's.


A