BS: Why is this man being extradited ?

Subject: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:02 PM

I don't frequent the BS section much so forgive me if this has already been discussed (I couldn't see any sign that it has been)

It makes me sick that the British Government don't have the balls to stand up for their citizens' rights, and are going to allow the extradition of this man to the US for an "offence" which I am sure most of us here would be only too delighted to have committed.

(And I speak as a dedicated Americanophile btw )

the GaryMcKinnon story

Officials at the Pentagon have egg on their faces and are seeking a scapegoat for their own incompetence imo

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:13 PM

Ten to one they hire him to help protect their systems. Makes one feel all cuddly and warm to know that the nation's secrets are so securely handled. WTF!

And the folks in Europe NOT telling the US to get stuffed on this one lets ya know who doesn't have any cajones.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM

So he should be able to break the law with impunity or what?

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM

So the US should make its defence secrets so easy to access? Perhaps Homeland Security should investigate the Defence Department and NASA. Sure as hell if he could do it then so could people who do not have the best interests of the US/Europe in mind have done so too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

Terrible sentence. However . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

John, I do understand where you're coming from, and I suppose I agree a bit. But there also has to be a sense of proportion. There is no doubt in my mind that Bush and Cheney should be doing hard time for the deaths of so many kids, both soldiers and civilians. However, they got a pass on that. Yet some poor bugger looking for UFO information deserves the full and undivided attentions of the USA court and penal system? Hell, the bar has been set so low that I have difficulty seeing this as the crime of the decade. That honour is presently held by the White House, and it will continue to be until such time as thoose two are prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

Then why not send him to prison here not tae some foreign country that is considering either the death penalty or sending him to gtmo

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

gosh I hate hackers, But when they have breached my servers in the past I blamed myself. I know better and I know the tricks.   He should be fined in England, or get his hands slapped, even go to jail . Not extradited here, it is over kill and a waste of tax payer dollars to drag it out. There are many classic ways to nail hackers, A server called a tar pit to grab and hold a connection, a trogan server deliberatly left open to nail a hacker. My guess he is cut into a trogan server that never had real data on it only misleading data. Most sensitive government networks are setup in such a manner. I don't believe he even go close to critical data but was a government server hence the crime. The millions it cost were millions to trace the entry point. Nothing was compromised IMO. But a waste of more taxpayer dollars ... no not for this. If he launched a virus ... damn right he should

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM

"Terrible sentence"? Has he already been tried and convicted? If not, how could anyone say he faces the death penalty?   US law forbids the extradition of US citizens - why doesn't UK law do the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

"Perhaps Homeland Security should investigate the Defence Department and NASA. Sure as hell if he could do it then so could people who do not have the best interests of the US/Europe in mind have done so too."

The grammar. That's what I meant by 'terrible sentence'.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

If he had committed an offence on American soil and scarpered back to this country, I would have no problem with his extradition.

If (and it is a big "IF") he has in fact committed any offence at all, then he should be tried and sentenced in the country wherein he committed the offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

Most of the time when you hear of a HS kid hacking a government network, they are hacking into a trogan server like I described. I repeat, they contain false and misleading data and are setup to trap hackers. The guy got nowhere close to sensitive data IMO. They are too good at protecting it. The real problems come in when an employee who is authorized and working for the DOD gets the data and sells it. They call that espionage

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

I actually think Bruce hit the nail on the head.. early in the thread... any bets that this guy will 'disappear' off the public radar and be working with his computers for the """authorities"""" whoever they happen to be.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

I'd rather we extradited Abu Hamza.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

If the US Defence Department is crap they should be grateful to people who demonstrate that to be the case, and who inform them - in this case by putting up a message to that effect.

As for the UK Government, what else would you expect from a loyal satellite? Look at the other current case where the UK has been desperately trying to avoid annoying Washington by ceasing to collude in suppressing evidence indicating that a British resident on trial in Guantanamo, facing the death sentence, was viciously tortured to produce a "confession"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

"The unemployed man could face life in jail if convicted of accessing 97 US military and Nasa computers.

It alleges that between February 2001 and March 2002, he hacked into dozens of US Army, Navy, Air Force, and Department of Defense computers, as well as 16 Nasa computers.

Prosecutors say he altered and deleted files at a naval air station not long after the 11 September attacks in 2001, rendering critical systems inoperable."

Yes of course, people who are just looking for UFO's [sic], always delete files on the systems they hack, don't they?

Sorry folks, but if it were your bank account, or your medical records, you'd be more than a little bit peeved.

Hackers are bad news.



JM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

Yes, they are. Lotsa hackers out there. But THIS guy has the US DoD on his ass and I think NASA might be a tad pissed off, although I'm sure they'll see it as an opportunity to study the weaknesses of their systems. Suppose the guy was a for-real get into the system and play games and maybe pass on the info' The info would be gone elsewhere--hell, lots of elsewheres, so other than the how and the extent their securities were breached, why else get the fellow to the US for interrogation under the HLSA. This isn't about law, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

The US is saying he altered and deleted files, but the guy himself makes a very good argument why we shouldn't believe what the US government is saying about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:45 PM

Hackers can indeed be bad news. But irresponsible organisations who don't ensure that important public data is kept securely are even worse news.

If it was my bank account or medical records I'd be angry all right - angry at the people bank or the hospital that had let me down so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

Hackers can indeed be bad news. But irresponsible organisations who don't ensure that important public data is kept securely are even worse news.

If it was my bank account or medical records I'd be angry all right - angry at the bank or the hospital that had let me down so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

He should be tried on British soil and if convicted serve his time in a British prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:42 PM

The real problem is that the UK/US extradition treaty is very one sided. Basically, the US whistle, we extradite, without even any prima facie evidence that a crime (under the laws of either jurisdiction) has been committed, and certainly without examining whether the alleged foreign crime is a crime under UK law.

But it ain't that way when the UK wants to extradite anyone in the USA. Oh no.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

How can a person be guilty of breaking laws of a country that he may never have set foot in? If he, a British citizen broke a British law deal with him in Britain! If no British law was broken and he never left British soil does he not have guaranteed rights? The Canadian government under Harper's rule is often first in line to kiss Bush's arse but our constitutional Bill of Rights give us protection. Extradition of people to the USA or elsewhere must comply with Canadian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

An Englishman can be convicted of a murder in Paris.

The "sex tourism" UK laws mean that Garry Glitter maybe charged in the UK of offences agains Thai children in Thailand.

As for extradition, the colony simply pass teh laws that the colonialists demand...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

I cannot understand why we allowed this unbalanced agreement to be passed. It is appalling. There have already been some businessmen taken to answer for something they did in this country.

Is there any chance it can be renegotiated if there is a regime change?

Or is there really some conspiracy out there?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

I agree the imbalance is iniquitous, but that doesn't ameliorate this man's crime does it?

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

Nope. But what kind of crime is it? You leave the front or back door open and someone enters. Ya leave the keys in your ignition and the car gets swiped.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:07 PM

Like I said and repeat, I DOUBT the guy got into anything but a Trogan server, one that is setup to nail hackers. I know what I am talking about. It is damn near impossible to get into their real servers. There are deliberate holes setup in the tar pit and Trogan servers with fake information. It is designed to nail someone on the outside hacking. I DOUBT seriously if he saw anything of interest to anyone. I will bet the farm on it. You can take it to the bank, YOU DO NOT GET INTO THEIR SYSTEMS. Any other access is simply a trap set to catch hackers. Like someone stated, leave the keys in the car and wait till someone steals it. However this car is set to run out of gas and lock you in.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

We can in theory denounce it any time we like, and repeal any relevant UK law. That's "Parliamentary sovereignty".

But the poodle bitch will always roll over.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

talking of poodle bitches, we may as well mention the so called European Court of Human Rights, who have just rejected his appeal.

I believe this is the same august body who decreed a number of years ago that tips paid by credit card in a hotel or restaurant could be retained by the owner and used to pay the staff wages, instead of being handed out as a bonus over and above the basic wage.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:53 PM

If it's true that he didn't get into their systems, then the US government is lying about what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

But we kinow that would never happen, Carol. This administration lie? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Bert
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

How about adding up all the financial damage that hackers cause and making the bum pay some restitution. If he is the only one caught then he can pay the lot.

I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:58 PM

Just for a little perspective, on the radio news the other day I heard this story, saying that the man being extradited was liable for up to 70 years if UAS prosecutors get their way. The following item was on a man convicted of manufacturing sub machine guns known to have been used in 8 separate murders given a life sentence defined as at least 11 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:01 AM

His solicitor Karen Todner said this had been her client's "last chance" and appealed to Home Secretary Jacqui Smith to intervene.

"He is absolutely devastated by the decision," she said. "He and his family are distraught.
"They are completely beside themselves. He is terrified by the prospect of going to America."

She added Mr McKinnon had recently been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome and would ask for the case to be tried in this country.

**************

Relevance?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Bert - PM
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

How about adding up all the financial damage that hackers cause and making the bum pay some restitution. If he is the only one caught then he can pay the lot.

I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

an uncharacteristically blinkered response, Bert. I am surprised at you ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

"Relevance?"

If this is true, it is relevant. Asperger's is not always easy to diagnose and sufferers can and do lead relatively normal lives, often un-noticed and untreated. They are often adept at very technical work requiring high analytical skills, but often they have some 'eccentricities', in the form of varying degrees of problem with social interactions. If this chap has Asperger's then the chances are however you explain the wrongs of his actions he won't see it that way.

Of course, as the US actually condones the killing of mentally ill people then actually suffering from a disorder isn't a defence.

But then extraditing an individual to any county that carries the death penalty, kidnaps, tortures and detains people without trial and without access to proper legal support is morally unacceptable in my opinion anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

PEACE said. . .

Terrible sentence. However . . . .

Peace, I don't know whether you're talking about someone's writing style or the possible penalty for the charges brought against the defendant.

If the latter, one should never take at face value such statements as "he could receive X years" or "could cost him Y" period of time. The operative word is "could".

Those statements in newspaper stories are almost invariably technically true but false as a real prospective penalty. The writer takes the maximum penalties for each charge and adds them up to a frightening total and prints it. But the Court in most cases has wide, wide latitude, both as to length of imprisonment term to be imposed for each charge and whether the sentences are to run concurrently, which is very common.

Supposing he's convicted of all charges, I'd be surprised if he received more than say 20 years (instead of ninety-some), and possibly a good deal less.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM

There seems a direct parallel to the recent Aussie 'terrorist' case - poor bastard brainwashed at Gitmo for years on little evidence except his 'confession under duress' - Little Fascist Johnny bent over for George, and the guy was bullied to plead guilty under a 'Star Chamber' (English History Reference!) system that was later discredited.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:11 PM

Oh - btw, you ever seen many Yanks given the same treatment to other countries? Especially the Military who rape women in Okinawa, spirited away in secret back home?

What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

Sandy said almost exactly what I've been thinking: If he has broken a British law, he should be tried in Britain. If he has not broken a British law he is innocent. I find it extroardinary that foreign criminals can get sanctuary in Britain if their own countries have the death penalty or use torture to gain evidence, yet we are prepared to hand this guy over to the United States, where he has never been.
If he really has made a nuisance of himself in some way, perhaps the U.S. should be grateful that this problem with their security was found by someone benign and not by terrorists.
I believe the relevance of Asperger's syndrome is that he may not be good at foreseeing the consequences of his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:36 AM

This is where the Internet is bringing up problems. The server he hacked into is in the US therefore the US authorities considered the offence to have taken place in the US whereas you or I might comsider that the offence took place in the UK. Perhaps we could avoid extraditing him by prosecuting him here under English law? Would double-jeopardy then come into effect?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

No, the Blair poodle signed a very one-sided treaty, and put it into a very one-sided UK statute, so now the UK is OBLIGED to send the innocent-until-proven-guilty to the USA where the rich go free and the poor to jail, and the UK courts are OBLIGED to make orders that will comply.

It is in short colonialist. The American legal system is imposed on an economically dependent territory.

Will this guy get a fair trial in the USA? Like hell he will.


Not that the UK is perfect (Lord Haw-Haw, the Birmingham 6 (although I'm not so sure about that one) the Dando murderer (although I'm not so sure about that one either) and so on), but it seems to me that it is not THAT bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

I wouldn't complain at all if someone were to indict and extradite the shrub et alia to the Hague or wherever to be tried for war crimes.

This seems a bit much for the hacker, but then we do not have all of the facts, do we? Regardless, I don't have much use for hackers but, from what has been said, I don't think it warrants the harsh sentences mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:58 PM

Radio 4 had a play about this this afternoon. The US prosecutor apparently said the "hope he fries" remark in the interview where he was offered a plea bargain.

What the hell are we doing sending someone to be tried in a country with the death penalty? Can we rescind this? I know Burke thought all Parliaments bound their successors, but I though Paine's argument against that had won.

According to the play, he thinks the reason he was picked on from all the hackers he saw in there (passwords set to default, computers on all night)is because he got into the place where the US keeps all the antigravity and energy secrets they got from reverse engineering UFOs, and he wanted to publish them so the oil wars wouldn't happen. I don't know how true that is.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

BBC R4b Afternoon Play - McKinnon Extradition

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:23 PM

The Helms-Burton Act was an attempt to extend USA law to other soverign nations (mainly trading with the enemy, aka Cuba). It was a piece of shit and I think that one of these bastards died a short time ago. It was soundly rejected by USA's allies but I think that it was passed into law anyway. This extradition agreement seems to follow in its footstep of bullying your friends. The good people of the UK should not stand for it! Demand a bill of rights that neither Blair nor those who succeed can overrule! If Gary McKinnon has not broken your laws tell Bush to "KISS YOUR ARSE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:41 AM

It occurs to me that I have been ambiguous about the not knowing the truth of the situation described in the play. What I don't know is how true it is that he claims to have found evidence of the US using UFO technology, as in does he so claim, or if so, does he believe his claim. (If he is AS, then he would believe his claim). Not how true it is that he actually found such evidence, or, if he found such evidence that it was true.

Penny (profound sceptic on the subject)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:57 AM

the Birmingham 6 (although I'm not so sure about that one)

No doubt at all that they were framed. Unprofessional forensics, coppers desperate for any conviction, gullible and panicking jury, appeal judges concerned more to support each other than with justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:20 AM

He does so claim, and he says it like he believes it. He says he was inspired to start investigating that sort of thing after hearing a lot of former high level US government and military people talking about it through the Disclosure Project.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:15 AM

It was a play, not a documentary, don't be misled by things that cannot be proven, but are used for dramatic effect.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:18 AM

Quite, hence my doubt. But the fries remark has been widely reported before, and not countered.

That is atrocious.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

Gary McKinnon, in his own words...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=541527296239246483&ei=h1--SOGsDY7-qwL69M3_CA&q=Gary+McKinnon&vt=lf&hl=en

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:31 AM


                   No names, no pack drill.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

According to a BBC report this chap had been "accessing 97 military and NASA computers." If I had done that, I would expect a cruise missile down the chimney. What a silly billy this man is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:12 PM

I guess olddude has grown weary of posting his wise words to no avail, seemingly, so I will repeat his earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: olddude - PM
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:07 PM

Like I said and repeat, I DOUBT the guy got into anything but a Trojan server, one that is setup to nail hackers. I know what I am talking about. It is damn near impossible to get into their real servers. There are deliberate holes setup in the tar pit and Trojan servers with fake information. It is designed to nail someone on the outside hacking. I DOUBT seriously if he saw anything of interest to anyone. I will bet the farm on it. You can take it to the bank, YOU DO NOT GET INTO THEIR SYSTEMS. Any other access is simply a trap set to catch hackers. Like someone stated, leave the keys in the car and wait till someone steals it. However this car is set to run out of gas and lock you in.

how difficult is that to understand ?

I get it, and I am no mental heavyweight ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:51 PM

Well as he said "It is designed to nail someone on the outside" hacking. This smart ass got nailed.
JM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

If that's the case, how was he able to carry on his activities for more than two years?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is this man being extradited ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:09 PM

Maybe a Joeclone would like to link the thread started today to this earlier thread, for the sake of continuity ...