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BS: Slavery still active-

beardedbruce 18 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM
Wesley S 18 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
Peace 18 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM
CarolC 18 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM
Peace 18 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM
gnu 18 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM
Bobert 18 Sep 08 - 07:06 PM
bobad 18 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 18 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM
CarolC 18 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM
Rapparee 18 Sep 08 - 11:02 PM
meself 18 Sep 08 - 11:11 PM
mg 19 Sep 08 - 12:45 AM
Rapparee 19 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM
Rapparee 19 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM
sapper82 19 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM
Rapparee 19 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 30 Aug 11 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,999 30 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 30 Aug 11 - 06:53 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 11 - 08:13 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Aug 11 - 10:46 PM
saulgoldie 31 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Sep 11 - 03:48 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 12 Sep 11 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 11 - 04:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 11 - 05:49 AM
Mayet 12 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,999 12 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,999 12 Sep 11 - 09:50 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 10:02 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,999 12 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Sep 11 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM
sapper82 12 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 11 - 01:10 PM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 01:59 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Sep 11 - 02:06 PM
Fred McCormick 12 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 11 - 04:14 PM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 11 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,999 12 Sep 11 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 06:26 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 11 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 12 Sep 11 - 06:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 02:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 03:11 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM
Fred McCormick 13 Sep 11 - 05:46 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM
Fred McCormick 13 Sep 11 - 06:18 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Sep 11 - 06:22 AM
Fred McCormick 13 Sep 11 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 07:54 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 11 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 08:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,999 13 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 09:46 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 11 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 10:24 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Sep 11 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 11 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,999 13 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 11 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 13 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM
gnu 13 Sep 11 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Sep 11 - 08:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Sep 11 - 10:07 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 11 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Sep 11 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 14 Sep 11 - 07:07 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Sep 11 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,999 14 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 14 Sep 11 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 11 - 12:04 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Sep 11 - 12:13 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Sep 11 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM
akenaton 14 Sep 11 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 11 - 01:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 14 Sep 11 - 03:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 14 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,999 14 Sep 11 - 04:28 PM
ollaimh 14 Sep 11 - 11:19 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 02:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 02:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 02:50 AM
Penny S. 15 Sep 11 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 03:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 11 - 04:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 15 Sep 11 - 05:51 AM
Fossil 15 Sep 11 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 06:50 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Sep 11 - 07:44 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 11 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 15 Sep 11 - 11:10 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 11 - 11:11 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 15 Sep 11 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 11:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 11:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 12:36 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Sep 11 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 15 Sep 11 - 01:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,mg 15 Sep 11 - 02:13 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 11 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 15 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 11 - 03:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 11 - 07:42 PM
Fossil 16 Sep 11 - 02:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 03:06 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 11 - 03:27 AM
GUEST, Richard Bridge 16 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 11 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 05:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 05:33 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 11 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Sep 11 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 11 - 05:42 AM
GUEST, Richard Bridge 16 Sep 11 - 05:55 AM
GUEST 16 Sep 11 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 11 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Sep 11 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 06:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 07:42 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 08:11 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 11 - 08:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Sep 11 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,999 16 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

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Subject: BS: Slavary still active-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM

Human rights groups in Argentina estimate that 800 women have gone missing at the hands of human traffickers since 2007. Worldwide, about 800,000 people are trafficked across borders annually, according to the U.S. State Department.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/09/17/stolen.lives/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavary still active-
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

National Geographic had a good article about the modern slave trade a year or two ago. It makes you sick to look at a rug and think it might have been made by a 10 year old that was chained to the table.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavary still active-
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

Yeah. And our countries trade with the bastards who purvey this stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavary still active-
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Modern slavery exists and is a problem in all countries. We don't just trade with them, we are them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

True to that, Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

Sickening... truly sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:06 PM

What Carol said...

Slavery has just been redefined...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: bobad
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

"It makes you sick to look at a rug and think it might have been made by a 10 year old that was chained to the table."

You can have some assurance if you look for this label Care & Fair on a rug you are looking to purchase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM

Slavery will often hide in one form or another. In China it is often the duty of a young girl to enslave herself in sweat-box factories in order to send a bit of money home. She may work long hours and suffer much abuse, while the product that she makes will sell in the western world under a "brand name" at many times its worth because some over the hill sports star attaches his endorsement for a million bucks.
In parts of the Arab world such as Saudi Arabia women are born, live, and die in cultural slavery, always the property of the father or the husband.
In Canada young women and often underage girls are sold daily on the street by pimps that have made them slaves by addicting them and beating them. If the pimp is arrested he faces a minor charge and is back on the street doing the same the next day. The girl will welcome him back because by then she is desperate for her next fix.
Around and around it goes but you don't have to look on a cotton plantation to find slavery. In much of the southern USA though, descendants of the plantation slaves still suffer the bondage of poverty and discrimination. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson spoke eloquently about equality and freedom while owning slaves. Has their two faced attitude ever really changed?
As long as greed exists exploitation will follow. Slavery is exploitation at its worst!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

The kind of slavery that is discussed in the opening post, and that I was referring to in my previous post involves actual physical enslavement (bondage or imprisonment) against the will of the person being enslaved. This is not enslavement in a metaphorical sense. It's actual physical enslavement. All of the kinds of metaphorical enslavement are bad. But the kind in which people are literally enslaved, often after being kidnapped, is the worst, in my opinion, along with enslaved child labor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:02 PM

Be very careful from whom you buy your diamonds, chocolate, coffee, clothing, cotton, shoes, vegetables, meat, automobile, television, computer, medicines, and anything else.

And don't get me started on sexual slavery!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:11 PM

My diamonds?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: mg
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:45 AM

The poor girls in Burma and Thailand are sold by their fathers for drug money. Many are riddled with disease by the time they sometimes are freed. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM

Not to mention the young boys....


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM

Until the time comes when greed doesn't rule humanity slavery of all sorts will continue. Until the time comes when the belief that absolute power over others is good no longer holds sway slavery of all sorts will continue.

Until then, you can fight it with your pocketbook.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

Of course slavery is still active. It always has been!
Even after the end of the Atlantic Slave trade, slaves were still being traded in Africa.
Human nature being what it is, you will always get people who's greed for money and power will come before any consideration for other people.

One could say that as long as our police forces have to follow the rule of law the organised criminal will have the advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

A short rope and a long drop....

I hate slavers and slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:19 PM

It is hard to believe that in 21st century Britain that people are being kept as slaves and forced to work and starved. Well it is fact, and I am glad to say that the four members of a family of travellers who forced these poor homeless people to work like 'slaves' are behind bars.

William Connors, 50, his wife Breda, 46, their son John, 28, and son in law Miles, 22, threatened and coerced down-and-outs and street drinkers into modern day slavery.


The family forced men to work on laying driveways at addresses throughout the UK.
The 'slaves' were made to dig up driveways using only hand tools and then resurface them with tarmac or block paving.


The charges was brought under a new section introduced last year of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 creating the offence of 'holding another person in slavery or servitude or requiring them to perform forced or compulsory labour.'

Victims of the racket had been made to live in 'virtually uninhabitable' caravans without any facilities while working long hours for no more than £20 a day - and in some cases without any payment at all.

They had been 'kept in slavery and servitude' by violence, threats of violence, withholding of their National Insurance and other documents, debt bondage, and being placed in isolated locations away from contact with other people.

They were given minimal amounts of food. Movements were restricted, mobile phones are not allowed and victims are kept in fear of reprisals if they attempt to leave.

Many of the victims were homeless alcoholics, the most vulnerable in society.
Police observed 22 alleged slaves living at Beggar's Roost caravan site.
They were sent to work in Worcestershire and the West Midlands to tarmac and block paving driveways. Police videos showed that the slaves have minimal clothing, they are always dirty and dishevelled.

Again, the true facts of so called travellers are exposed to the world.

Full story here.

http://m.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370669/4-travellers-held-police-slavery-charges-Gloucestershire.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM

The Travellers have been accorded an ethnic minority status in England. Please be informed that Guest,Bluesman is an avowed racist with regard to Travellers. I would (and do) treat anything he says with great scepticism. FWIW


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:53 PM

Hard to imagine anyone could do this to another poor soul.Well this is the UK today, the facts are there to be read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

4 travellers - out of how many? Oh - "accused". That'll be innocent until proven guilty then.

Your bigotry is showing, white man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:13 PM

Heck, many immigrant workers are very much enslaved on large farms in the Southeast... They take these folks in, promise them work, then feed them and charge them for food and shelter and at the end of the week the worker "owes his soul to the company store"...

This is happening today!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:46 PM

Also happens in the UK with gang bosses of immigrant farm workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: saulgoldie
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

We don't just enslave humans to support our lifestyles. We also enslave the environment. We take far more from it than we give--animals, plants, the oceans, water.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM

24 men believed to be slaves were rescued by police from a site in Bedfordshire yesterday.
Some escapees had informed the police.
The police said that, since 2008, 28 people had previously made the same claim, "when they looked back" !
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-14878181


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM

Police have arrested five people after the discovery of 24 men being held against their will at a Bedfordshire Pikey site.

Four men and a woman were arrested on Sunday for committing slavery offences at Greenacre caravan site in Leighton Buzzard.

The men, some English and some from eastern Europe, were found in "filthy and cramped" Detectives believe some may have been there for up to 15 years.
They were told they could not leave and if they did they would be beaten up and attacked.


Those arrested on the caravan park are all so called travellers, Pikey's similar to those illegally occupying the Dale Farm green belt site.,


Police found class A drugs, illegal firearms and a large amount of cash at the site,
The raid was launched as part of a long-running investigation by Bedfordshire Police after intelligence a number of men were being held against their will in poor conditions and forced to work for no pay.

The raid on the site, which involved more than 200 police officers and representatives of various agencies including welfare charities, began at 05:3o yesterday.

The 24 men believed to be victims of slavery, were found in sheds and horse boxes, and were taken from the site to a medical centre.


The major crime unit was assisted by dog sections, helicopter and firearms support, and officers from the UK Human Trafficking Centre.

The men appeared to have been "recruited" from soup kitchens and benefits offices and included people with problems such as alcoholism. They were told if you come work for us we'll pay you £80 a day, we'll look after you give you board and lodgings.

But when they get here, their hair is cut off them, they're kept in in some were kept in horseboxes, dog kennels and old caravans, made to work for no money, given very, very small amounts of food.

They were told they could not leave and if they did they would be beaten up and attacked. But in fact some people did leave and told police what was going on and when we looked back since 2008 we were aware of 28 people who had made similar accusations.

This story involving slavery, class A drugs, illegal firearms and violence shows the world the true side of Pikey's living in the UK today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:35 AM

Come on you guys, I'm no racist and I explained to you on another tread how these encampments are easily turned into fortresses, using "special staus legislation". The one near where I live was used for drug supply, money lending and extortion, I have spoken with addicts who had been stabbed and threatened with further violence when they were unable to pay drug debts.

This is not about "bad travellers", its about bad "liberal" legislation......please grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:48 AM

White man, if you were so concerned about the English culture surely you would have learned something about the use of the apostrophe by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM

Regrettably, ake, your attitude to those who do not fit with your preconceptions as to merit do reveal you to be a racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:01 AM

Richard...There are bad people in all sections of society, given the opportunity these people would prey on others, "special status legislation" allows bad people to behave badly.

Please stop calling me a racist. Travellers are not a "race", in Scotland anyway, and most travellers are decent people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:15 AM

Come on then Vanessa Redgrave, your 'wise and gentle' Pikey's are keeping slaves, what do you reckon to that then?

I didn't think anything could surprise me about these scumbags but I admit to being amazed at this. According to the BBC website, police say they have had 28 similar allegations made going back to 2008 and that guns, drugs and cash were found at the site. This is no surprise at all, the police have allowed this to carry on for so long because they are scared to death of the Pikey's and their parasite human rights lawyers.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2036153/Bedfordshire-caravan-site-24-male-slaves-rescued-police-dawn-raid.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:34 AM

Sometimes you have to feel sorry for those representing their fellow travellers re the eviction presently going on. They say they are ordinary people trying to get on in life and the experiences of people like myself who have been victims of crime and the police saying they know who did it but they are travellers so bad luck.....

Perhaps my slightly jaundiced view of travellers, no different to M'Unlearned Friend's jaundiced view of anybody who makes a decent living out of their business (apart from himself) is sometimes justified.

Sorry, but I cannot be shocked or surprised by the slavery antics of a travellers camp near Leighton Buzzard no more than some sanctimonious idiots feel vindicated when a rich dude is caught with his fingers in the corporate till.

At the risk of giving bluesman unwarranted credence, this story is at least as descriptive of certain travellers as Jim Carroll's insistence they are all in the mould of Ewan McColl's romantic lyrics.

Let them live outside society? Once society can be assured of others' safety and it takes more than mealy mouthed equality waffle to get that far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:57 AM

Whether these people are Travellers or not - remains to be seen - it is a deliberate and blatent distortion to suggest that "slavery" is in any way connected with Travellers culture.
I assume we are now going to be treated to yet another outpouring of hatred against an ethnic community - sad to see Mudcat being allowed to slither down this shit-hole
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM

It seems strange that this comes to light, and action is taken, now, during the two weeks between the council getting the go-ahead to evict travellers at Dale Farm, and any action being taken.
An attempt to guide the public perception?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 05:20 AM

I am just waiting for the human rights brigade (the odd failed solicitor or lady of the bottle) to say - well this is just their culture and we should leave them alone to get on with how they want to live. Where do we draw the line on law breaking - it would appear that police were too afraid to take any action. Another question how was it that everyone else on this site did not know about this.

These sites are no go areas for police and the outside community. Some of the people kept under those conditions have died over the years, and their bodies quietly disposed of.

Big dilemma!!! - will Vanessa Redgrave support the slaves or the "travellers"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 05:29 AM

Nigel, I wondered if the police chose to swoop on the anniversary of 9/11 to AVOID news coverage.
Do you think they have been waiting to act all this time until the eviction?
Should they have allowed the suffering to continue until after the eviction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 05:49 AM

" Jim Carroll's insistence they are all in the mould of Ewan McColl's romantic lyrics."
Where did I ever mention MacColl's perception - my opinion of the Travellers comes entirely from thirty years of close contact with them - where did yours come from? (Don't relly expect a reply for this)
Why do people insist on distorting the opinions of others?
"it would appear that police were too afraid to take any action."
You mean they are to spineless to do their job; bit harsh.
More likely they were not being paid enough so they decided to move in!!!
As "Pikey" (the Traveller equivilent of "nigger") seems to be an inseperable part of Bluesman's limited vocabulary, can we look forward to nigger, kikey, sheen, wog, wop, kraut, Paki.... as part of these discussions?
Let's see how long the guardians of this forum will allow this one to go on in this tone, shall we, or those who think this level of racist abuse is not worthy of comment!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Mayet
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

To reiterate what Guest 999 posted at 30 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM

Gypsies and Travellers fall into four main groups – Gypsies, Irish Travellers, New Travellers and the Roma community. Some are ethnic groups, recognised by the Race Relations Act.
Gypsies have been recognised as a specific ethnic minority since 1988 for the purposes of the Race Relations Amendment Act.
Irish Travellers are a distinct and separate group and recognised as such since 2000 for the purposes of the Race Relations Amendment Act.
Who are Travellers?

From a recent article attempting to understand why racism against these ethnic groups is still 'acceptable' while any use of racist language and attacks on black or Jewish people would presumably be immediately deleted from any decent forum -

"Prejudice against gypsies and travellers is more complex to explain. Anti-gypsy racism is very deep rooted.
It is a form of racism, that is a systematic prejudice and discrimination against a distinct group of people.
It is partly that gypsies, Romany and non-Romany, have remained "unassimilated" for centuries, in those countries where they live. That is partly because of the prejudice they have faced.

Though the gypsies were victims of the extermination programme of the Nazis, this reality has never been adequately discussed in western societies. Anti-gypsy racism therefore remains a norm, a "respectable" racism.

Anti-gypsy racism is also partly the political creation of recent years.

In 1994 the Tories repealed the obligation of local councils to provide sites for travellers. It is now estimated that Britain is short of about 3,500 sites for the 300,000-odd strong Romany and travelling population (most of whom live permanently in one place). Travellers have been forced to move across the country and sometimes camp illegally."

The intentional and continual use of derogatory terms for any ethnic group is, without doubt, racist - it is despicable and not what I would expect to remain undeleted on a blues and folk forum.
As for terming someone a 'racist' - if they choose deliberately to use offensive slurs against any ethnic group then - 'if it quacks like a duck….'


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 08:00 AM

Vanessa Redgrave has been very conspicuous by her media absence today. According to this wizened B actress, "Travellers" are a wise and noble people with a long tradition. She got the last bit right a long tradition of thieving violence and criminality.

Read the Yahoo link below, it is brilliant. The comments here are a true reflection of the attitude of the hard working British taxpayer towards Pikey's.

I am so glad this latest Pikey crime has been exposed my the media. As I said before, as a law abiding taxpayer, I will continue to expose Pikey criminality at any given opportunity.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/four-arrested-slavery-probe-114424940.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

I posted this to another thread. In case you don't see it there:

Jim, this turd KNOWS you'll respond to his ravings. Look, buddy, he ain't wrapped too tight and in his own way he kinda likes you. Ignore him and he'll go away. No one anywhere else likes him so he comes here to get attention. Deny him that and he'll go away. FWIW


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM

Jim, I am with you in deploring the use of pejorative names for this or other minorities.
Bluesman, your abusive language makes decent people unwilling to offer their views.

Jim, Bluesman's nastiness aside, this is a serious issue that members will naturally want to discuss.

It is not just this case, but also the Hampshire and Gloucestershire cases since March this year.
I hesitate to use the term "over-representation" but something is going on here.
What do you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 09:50 AM

Wrong, Keith. The thread was dead for three years. It was brought back to the top by guess who? If you guessed Turd, you're right. Because he's a Guest, he cannot start threads by himself, so he finds others with a theme that's close to his agenda and resurrects it. The guy's an asshole. Period. Ignore him and he'll go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 09:58 AM

It would perhaps be nice to see a little sympathy for the victims here, in the main it seems troubled people, alcoholics, down and outs, and some with psychiatric problems, kept in dog kennels and sheds, covered in their own shit and severely undernourished.

I has seen not one post in any of these threads expressing the slightest sympathy.

Are we all too blinded by our agendas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:02 AM

I have been ignoring him 999.
It was me who revived the thread today because I wanted to raise the issue of the new case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:06 AM

I'm sorry Bruce, but this is big news in the UK....on BBC this morning and in all the papers today.

I agree with Keith here in disliking childish name calling, but this is a valid topic for discussion and opens up the whole "liberal" agenda to scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:08 AM

I stand--well, sit actually--corrected. My apologies if you felt a slight, Keith. It was not intended.

Thanks for the info, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:11 AM

Akeneaton, I was moved to place this case on the forum, but on the slavery thread.
I also referred to the suffering of the victims there.
Others seem only concerned about the suspects, ignoring the plight of the victims (As on the "Prejudice" and "Bulger" threads).
The youngest is 17, now reunited with his family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:48 AM

Disturbing case, can't see why the Police didn't act long ago, having had previous allegations made. I think there's more to this, and perhaps later we'll hear the details. I for one am appalled on behalf of the victims, and can only hope they can be restored to normality and sanity after their long torment. But obviously, travellers don't go round doing this any more than any other group. It's extremely rare I should imagine. Hope Mudcat doesn't get all the nastiness and racism that appeared on several threads over the last week or two!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM

Differing comments, from some of the freed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: sapper82
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM

I can not for the life of me understand why "travellers" have protection from so-called Racial Abuse simply because they have a different lifestyle to other people.

To me it seems that a large number of them, ok, yes a minority perhaps, but a VERY noticable one, seem to go out of their way to justify the prejudices people feel against them.

As a Railwayman I am well aware of the havoc and disruption caused by scrap metal thieves and am also aware that the majority of cases where prosecutions have taken place have involved these so-called "Travellers."

Trying to silence people from telling unpleasant or inconvenient truths with accusations of Racism is an old tactic that is loosing it's effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 01:10 PM

"I hesitate to use the term "over-representation"
Over-representation of what?
Do you mean employers who pay next to nothing wages to their domestic staff and threaten to send their "employees" back to where they came from if they don't comply.
Or sex trafficers bringing girls into the country on the pretext of giving them legitimate work.
Or the sweat labour that has existed for centuries in Britain in the clothing and catering industries
Or the building workers working the lump.
Or simply the many thousands of employers who don't register their employees and totally ignore the legal minimum wage, safety regulations and general employment laws.
Where else can you cite Travellers holding employees against their will and forcing them to work - all the above mentioned are well established indigenous practices.
Given your past ventures you would be well advised to steer clear of "over-representation.
I do hope you aren't going to make this another one of your 'missions'!!
As for sympathy for the victims; the best way to show that is not in mealy mouthed platitudes, but to deal with it for what it is, a crime by ruthless criminals; it is totaly irrellevant that in this case they happen to be Travellers, and the cynical use of this only diverts away from it being righted and prevented from happening again.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 01:51 PM

Wrong Jim, the fault is with the legislation on "special status" for minority groups, which allows the criminals within those groups to evade prosecution.

Your "liberal" ideology is shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 01:59 PM

When the Pikeys were all over the news a few weeks ago for illegal occupation of a green belt site, we had these washed up old actresses and Looney left wingers in our society bawling their anti-establishment crap.

The problem is that 'the establishment' also apparently means anyone who can trace their British roots past a couple of generations and has a history of tax paying and abiding by the law.


Two years ago there was a Pikey site set up over night in a playing field a few miles from me, they broke in to the field cut down fences, and when forced to leave, they left gas bottles, and all manner of waste and sh 1 t behind them.....what is truly galling is they did within five hundred yards from a £200.000 site set up for them but they did not want to use it because they had to register.


They came back to the area a year later and set up camp on Meadow Lane. It used to be a convenient short cut through to the shops, but over a short period of time it became a health hazard and dangerous to walk through, used sanitary and contraceptives along with human crap just 'left in situ' The firing of shotguns was not uncommon, and after several incidents in the pubs in which Pikey's stole, abused people and fought, many landlords barred the Pikeys.


Even anyone who goes to school in a yellow bus can see there is a 2 fingered salute being put up to the law in favour of these people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 02:06 PM

Bluesman, your "nasty as I wanna be" attitude as you throw around insults and racial slurs in various threads about minority communities is really really old. Why don't you go read a good book or think about music? Your social skills are appalling.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM

Hang on, can we all just cool it.

First of all, the 6pm Radio 4 news bulletin said that 9 of the people "rescued" claimed that they hadn't been enslaved at all, and had no wish for the police to continue with their investigations. We will have to await the outcomes of interviews with the remaining 15 before anyone can decide whether there is any basis to these allegations.

Secondly, if you were going to keep 24 people as slaves in inhumane conditions, I doubt you'd do it on what I take to be a council run travellers camping site. It's just too damned public.

Thirdly, even if this bizarre situation turned out to be true, and all the people arrested were subsequently convicted, that is 5 out of a total population of how many travellers? By comparison, look at Fred and Rosemary West, and the murderers of Baby P, and Hindley and Brady, and the killers of Stephen Lawrence and Anthony Walker, and at Thompson and Venbales, and at the gang who were sentenced just today for murdering a 27 year old woman with learning difficulties.

If those 5 travellers are seriously representative of traveller behaviour in general, then we who live in towns and houses must be tarred with exactly the same brush as the settled scumbags I've just listed.

Fourthly, if you want slavery type conditions, take a look at the sweatshops of the third world, where people work impossibly long hours for impossibly little pay in impossible working conditions, so that people in the first world can get goods at prices, which are dirt cheap to us, but which the people making the goods couldn't afford in a million years.

Yes I know I've just written an impossibly long sentence. But if you want to point the finger at slavery, just make sure you point it in the right direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM

I see one of those rescued by police has said they were told by the Pikeys if they ever made a statement about their captivity to anyone that their families would suffer.

I imagine most of them will be too scared to tell police the full extent of their ordeal in fear of retribution against their loved ones.

So we can now add intimidation to their growing list of crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:14 PM

"Wrong Jim, the fault is with the legislation on "special status" for minority groups,"
Unless you are suggesting that the police and judiciary are either corrupt, incompetent or both in allowing criminals to follow their criminal career because they belong to ethnic or social minorities there is no such thing as ""special status" for minority groups," outside the imaginations of the rednecks among us who would wish to drive all immigrants into the sea, re-criminalise homosexuality and place British Pakistanis in the 'dangerous species' category because of their inbuilt tendedency to child rape.
"Your "liberal" ideology is shite. "
And your racist/homophobic rantings are dangerous and possibly lethal shite - ask the families of Stephen Lawrence and those who had children slaughtered in Norway recently (I seem to remember your suggesting that the killer in the Norwegian massacre had a justification for what he did because of his country's immigration policy)
Fred is quite right, we have yet to see what the 'Traveller slavers' incident is about - but it's wonderful to see the bandwagon scramblers in full flight to join the minority kicking campaign
It would seem you have found a suitable Fuehrer in Bluesman - though I'm not sure what he feels about your depiction of our boys in blue as too inept or corrupt to deal with criminality!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:40 PM

I dont think you are quite as stupid as you pretend to be Jim.

I'm sure you know and approve of the protection afforded to the criminal elements amongst these minorities by the HRA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 05:09 PM

Those arrested have now been charged, so the CPS must think they have a strong case.
Pakistanis, for whatever reason or none, were over-represented in the offence of grooming by groups in public places.
Ex senior police admitted they were reluctant to investigate for fear of causing inter-community tension, and it is widely believed that there has been a reluctance to follow up Traveller crime for similar reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 06:07 PM

"it is widely believed"

By whom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 06:26 PM

Four men have been charged with slavery offences relating to four people found at a traveller's site, the Crown Prosecution Service said.

The men, all from the same family of travellers, are charged with conspiracy to holding a person in servitude and requiring them to perform forced labour.

The charges follow an investigation by the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Major Crime Unit and relate to alleged offences against four male victims at the Greenacres travellers' site in Bedfordshire.

The CPS named the men charged as Tommy Connors, 30, Patrick Connors, 19, James (Big Jim) Connors, 34, and James (Jimmy) Connors, 23, all of Greenacres caravan site, in Great Billington, Leighton Buzzard.

Adrian Roberts, head of the CPS Thames and Chiltern Complex Casework Unit, said: "These charges relate to victims who have been held against their will and forced to live and work like slaves.

"Police investigations into other offences relating to other potential victims at Greenacres are ongoing, further to the police raid on Sunday, September 11."

The four men will appear at Luton Magistrates' Court on Tuesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 06:44 PM

"Ex senior police admitted they were reluctant to investigate for fear of causing inter-community tension, and it is widely believed that there has been a reluctance to follow up Traveller crime for similar reasons."
One ex senior policeman claimed the police were reluctant to act against Pakistani pimps - no proof has ever been provided.
Following the Stephen Lawrence murder the police were found to be "institutionally racist" - the investigation into that racist murder was so inept (probably deliberately so) that despite the fact that we all know who the killers are, they have never been brought to justice. There is no reason to believe that this would not happen again.
The Brixton riots were sparked off by heavy-handedness on the part of the police.
The latest riots were started by the shooting of an unarmed black man; the police have since admitted that they lied about the shooting.
Matters were made worse in Tottenham by the heavy-handed handling of a peaceful demonstration.
There is no evidence whatever to suggest that the police are soft-pedalling when it comes to cultural minorities in BRITAIN - heavy handed stop-and-searches remain a running sore in black communities.
I've seen first hand how the police treat Travellers - where they can't menace money out of them, of the persecute tham - that was the case when we started back in the 70s - it remains the case.
The idea that they are soft on Traveller crime is utterly ludicrous
You people really can't have it both ways. If the police and the judiciary are as inept and ineffective as you suggest when it comes to crime in the minority communities how can you possible demand that Travellers - or any of us take the law seriously?
I have my criticism of the police and the legal system but on balance I would rather put my trust in them than in a bunch of proven racists/homophobes - a hard-core matching set of three, with couple of symathetic hangers-on.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 06:54 PM

British police and the British legal system in one of the best systems in the world. They are well known for their smart judgment and quick justice. Unlike some other countries.



http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80673


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM

999, rightly or wrongly it is widely believed here.
Steamin' Willie and Sapper82 alluded to it.

The Times is running this today.
The full scale of a suspected slavery ring targeting homeless and vulnerable men emerged yesterday as The Times learnt that more than 100 people are believed to have been held prisoner across the country. Police suspect that a network of Irish travellers is behind an organised crime operation to kidnap or recruit homeless Britons and Eastern Europeans over the past two decades and force them into unpaid work, while holding them in squalid conditions on starvation rations. After the rescue of 24 men from putrid and cramped caravans, sheds and horse boxes at the Greenacres travellers' encampment in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire, it has emerged that raids carried out at four other travellers' sites across five counties are believed to be linked through a family with the surname Connors. Four men were charged last night under Section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 with the offence of holding someone in slavery…


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM

Jim Carroll, 8th April 2011 "Some police are now claiming that the reason they did not do their job properly in the first place was that they feared accusaions of racism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:54 AM

Me, 10th June
"Have you forgotten that Cryer had families coming to her because the police refused to investigate?
Have you forgotten the senior officers who admitted they were afraid of being called racist?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:11 AM

BBC today.
In total, 15 men are still being treated for malnutrition and medical problems.

The British Red Cross said it is providing practical and emotional support


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM

However, the apparent link to one family, called "Connor" would seem to negate any possible argument that "this sort of thing" is endemic amongst travellers whether of a particular racial group or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:37 AM

The good news is, yet again the Pikeys are in the news for all the right reasons. The media must continue to expose their thieving way of life. As I said before, I am always glad to do so.

This is what happens when you give certain groups of people 'carte blanche' to do as they please, because political correctness deems that certain groups cannot 'do wrong' as it is they who are victimised.....

I wonder what Chami Chakarabati thinks of this? Actually she would probably say 'it isn't their fault' owning slaves is down to their lack of education.....I suppose not paying tax will also be down to their lack education, and not down to their conniving cunning that puts them above the law.

Now let us look forward to the Dale Farm evictions in a few weeks time. Now this will be entertainment at it's finest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM

"British police and the British legal system in one of the best systems in the world. "
Who are to telling - me or Keith and 'the 'phobe'?
"Have you forgotten the senior officers who admitted they were afraid of being called racist?" "
Wow - can't get more specific than that, can you!!!
"The full scale of a suspected slavery ring targeting homeless and vulnerable men emerged yesterday "
Five members of one family so far - does that count as "massive - massive" or just "massive over-representation".
Of the "24 men" rescued, nine have agreed to co-operate with the police, others have described it as nonsense amd anti Traveller - read Peter Laban's link.
You are going to make this another of your racist crusades, aren't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:46 AM

Bluesmanmyarse. "Now this will be entertainment at it's finest."

My God, how sick can you get? Perhaps you'd like to see the odd Christian being thrown to the lions, or maybe you like to watch footage of the gassings at Belsen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM

Crucifiction to the left, lions to the right!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:18 AM

Yes, Bozo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:22 AM

Fred ~~ Purely in interests of pedantry ~ Belsen was a starvation camp; there were no gas-chambers there. Still, your point was valid nevertheless.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 07:18 AM

M. For once I agree with you. Belsen wasn't an extermination camp, but when it was liberated by the Allies, they found 13,000 corpses strewn around the place. Most presumably had died from malnutrition.

In fact, IIRC, the extermination camps were all in Poland, because the Nazis wanted to make sure the German people didn't know the full extent of the horror that was being conducted in their name.

Oddly enough, Ewan MacColl made the same mistake as I just made when he wrote the script for the Travelling People:

Some of them were gassed at Belsen,
Some at Buchenwald did fa'.
Others kennt the Auschwitz ovens:
Men and women, bairns and a'.

Whatever. Names like Belsen, Auschwitz and Buchenwald will remain forever as reminders of the evil depths to which humanity can sink when people of good conscience do nothing, expect maybe look the other way. Similar reminders can be found in discrimination against gypsies, travellers, gays or any other vulnerable minority.

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Horrifying. Absolutely horrifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 07:47 AM

No argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 07:54 AM

Again we see an absence of sympathy for the victims of Pickeys. As a law abiding British citizen, I will continue to expose Pickey violent crime, rape, murder, drug dealing, grievous bodily harm and slavery at every given opportunity.

Fred, nice to see you are still a member of Mudcat, I was concerned that maybe you had resigned your membership again as you could not provide any credible facts in a previous Pikey debate.

Maybe you could let some Pickeys live on some of the land you own, maybe in your back garden. You could wake up in the morning to the stench of fresh crap, possibly with a leaky roof, but it's ok, the poor Pickeys nicked the lead. Possibly you might go out to your car and it wont run properly, but it's ok only the catalytic converter has been nicked.... don't call the police now Fred's it might infringe their human rights if you accuse them.

Decent British taxpayers also have human rights, that includes living in a clean environment without rodents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:33 AM

I've heard that so often Fred and for most of my life I've been a Communist(top of the list)...probably part of me still is, but in this "liberal" mess which we call a society, there are no longer any persecuted minorities......to day society is the persecuted....minorities rule!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:34 AM

Slavery is also an issue in Ireland.

"WORKERS are being held in slave conditions in Irish homes and businesses because of a lack of legislation to either protect them or prosecute their enslavers.

The Migrant Rights Centre of Ireland (MRCI) revealed it regularly finds cases of people working as forced labour, but is often powerless to help them.

The group is calling for the introduction of laws similar to Britain's new Slavery and Servitude Act, which enabled police there to move on long-held suspicions about the enslavement of men at a Traveller camp in Bedfordshire.

Four men were charged yesterday following the discovery of 24 men kept in squalid conditions in ramshackle caravans, horseboxes and even dog kennels while being forced to work as free manual labour for the Traveller gang."

"Anti-Slavery International has also urged Ireland to provide laws enabling the Garda to act on the issue.

"Ireland very much has a problem of modern day slavery," said spokeswoman Klara Skrivankova. "I believe Ireland would greatly benefit from giving the police these powers." "

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/workers-held-as-slaves-in-irish-homes-167300.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

to day society is the persecuted....minorities rule!

Absolutely right, and the pillocks who get offended on behalf of pikeys, and the nutters obsessed with human rights !!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:34 AM

"WORKERS are being held in slave conditions in Irish homes and businesses"
Workers are being held in "slave conditions" in virtually every 'civilised' country in the world, particularly here in the "free west" - Britain included.
The building, catering and hospitality trades are notorious for paying breadline-level wages and forcing their employees to work in appallingly dangerous and unhealthy conditions without safety measures, insurance, or pensions.
The building industry is one of the worst culprits - it took my own trade - (the electrical industry), many years of protest and action to attempt to prevent employers from forcing us to dismantle cancer-causing asbestos-filled appliances, and there are still firms who make their employees handle such lethal material, particularly storage heaters. The same applies to the building industry in general with pipe lagging and and asbestos roofing.
An interesting sidelight on this was when Mrs T's friend, Lady Porter wanted to re-arrange the voting patterns in Westminster, she forcably moved council tenants out of their sellable houses into asbestos-filled multi storey flats in order to give her constituancy a Tory bias - they appear to believe that working people are somehow immune to the effects of asbestos. In the end Lady P did a runner to Israel to avoid paying a £multi-million penalty imposed on her for other crooked dealings.
Thatcher and her mafia made conditions and wages worse by taking away the only voice we had, our trades union representation, setting workers in some industries back at least a century.
The situation has recently been added to, thanks to the predatory corporate investors and their cohorts in government having driven the world economies into the ground to such an extent that the national minimum wage - as miniscule as it is - could well be totally abandoned.
Added to all this, most of our department stores are filled with cheap imported goods manufactured in actual slave conditions quite often produced by child labour - clothing, shoes, toys, electrical goods (particularly sporting ones)... you name it, Britain buys it.
All of which makes the Connors family out to be a bunch of right amatures, don't you think?
Interesting that you should choose Ireland as your example though - a key part of your present crusade, no doubt!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:38 AM

"Absolutely right, and the pillocks who get offended on behalf of pikeys, "
Yeah - who needs human rights - gas 'em all!!
Who let that parrot in?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM

You, sir, insult my parrot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:46 AM

Jim,
"Interesting that you should choose Ireland as your example though - a key part of your present crusade, no doubt!!"

What?
It is a current story, published just yesterday.
The Engish slavery is also a current story.
The subject is ,Slavery still active.
Why are you being so irrational?
Thatcher???


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:53 AM

Sorry Jim, but you're starting to babble, try to keep focused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:13 AM

Correction, the story is in TODAY'S edition of The Irish Examiner, not yesterday.
I think it is relevant to the thread subject.
More-so than Lady Porter and pipe lagging.
Something of a crusade with you Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:22 AM

It is interesting that our resident Irish Republican sympathiser has not denied that Pikeys brought arms and explosives across the border for the IRA. Several Irish republicans (including eight who escaped from the Maze prison in 1983) have openly thanked Pikeys for transporting them over the border.

One Irish terrorist who was a so called "engineer" confirmed in an RTE programme that it was Pikeys that transported 'Anfo' (fertilizer and diesel oil mix) and 'Donegal Mix' or Annie - ammonium nitrate, nitrobenzene and diesel and IED timers into mainland Britain to make "city destroyers." He also came to Britain on a Dublin ferry and onto London by caravan. He added that these were the bombs that wrecked London and Manchester.

So we can now add assisting terrorists to their growing list of serious crimes.

In the link below, you will see that dissident Irish republican terrorists have now turned on the Pikeys in Dublin for impersonating IRA terrorists to gain money from people.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Travellers-threatened-with-death-after-impersonating-dissident-IRA-members-128197398.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:24 AM

Sorry, that blue clicky link did not seem to work, here is the link.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Travellers-threatened-with-death-after-impersonating-dissident-IRA-members-128197398.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:28 AM

The Irish examiner story tends to indicate that the majority of modern-day western slaveowners are not travellers or subsets of travellers, but the better orf (sic) no doubt clients of Bozo or those like him who believe that wealth is right and that they deserve servile servants. It in fact undermines the thrust of White Man and monkey (or maybe ake).

Travellers are not the predominant slavers, and Jim is absolutely right on this.

Lady Porter was a nasty piece of work - I knew another member of her conservative council, and he was a nasty piece of work too, but was not caught with his fingers in the till and did not abscond to Israel to avoid justice.

Interesting however that White Man is happy to "continue to expose Pickey (I think he means "Pikey") violent crime, rape, murder, drug dealing, grievous bodily harm and slavery at every given opportunity" - but not the sins, real or imagined, of those perceived to be representative of any other social group (except for those with different skin colours).


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:39 AM

And now Petrocelli arrives to save the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 12:34 PM

"It is a current story, published just yesterday."
And we all know that if it had been about the UK it would not have been worth a mention by you - Irish, Pakistanis and Travellers seem to be your meat.
As I said, the acceptable form of slavery here in the west among the settled community puts anything the Connors family have done completely in the shade, and has been going on for many decades - if you don't count the Empire, which would make it centuries.
Your finding something out about Ireland yesterday - no, today, sorry - is an attempt on your part to spread your net from Irish Travellers to the Irish as a whole - a target for your particular brand of bile in the past.
"And now Petrocelli..."
Better Petrocelli than Mussolini
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 12:57 PM

Your ranting is ridiculous Jim.
The slavery uncovered here is a shocking story and would certainly have appeared on this forum anyway.
Are you saying the Irish story was not worthy of mention?
As Richard said, it does not incriminate any particular group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 01:13 PM

So Pikeys transported guns and explosives for Irish terrorists, now let me see why would anyone possibly defend Pikeys to the point of obsession ? Maybe they also supported the Irish armed struggle for independence as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 01:49 PM

"Are you saying the Irish story was not worthy of mention?"
Not in context of a discussion on the events at Bedfordshire - how could it be.
Though it does demonstrate quite clearly that attempts to link such crimes as have been happening with this single Traveller family (4 charged so far) has nothing to do with one particular culture or community and can be found among settled people as well as Travellers - in any part of the "free" world - including Britain.
Your own goal in attempting to smear the Irish with something we could encounter every day in say London or Birmingham - did serve a useful purpose.
Perhaps you would like to explain what relevance it has to the crimes possibly committed by the Connors family and why you put it up - if not to extend your crusade to the Irish as a nation.
Sorry - I interrupted your fuehrer in full flow.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:01 PM

Jim, you are obsessed!
I posted the Examiner story in the context of "Slavery still active."
It was pertinent and a story of the day.
The main thrust was that Ireland needs similar slavery laws to those recently introduced in UK.
Why does that make you angry?

As for the other story, it has no parallel in my experience.
Sixty people have been freed from Traveller sites since March this year!

Are you saying that it is OK for others to discuss these things but not me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:06 PM

Jim, "(4 charged so far) "

Be aware that more were charged from the previous raids, another is awaiting extradition from Denmark, and the pregnant lady is still on bail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM

If something like slavery, child abuse, cooking meth, etc. is happening, you need to address it with whatever means you have and not worry about political niceties. Safety of individuals from terrible outcomes must always trump being polite and sensitive. For lesser problems, say noise levels, garbage disposal, minor traffic violations, then you need to be more sensitive, aware, slower to react, meet with community leaders etc...but for some things you have to react swiftly and surely. You can not leave people in slavery or horrible conditions because of any ...well for any reason...you just can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:13 PM

"Jim, you are obsessed!"
It's not me who keeps insisting all these foreigners are perverts or criminals
Slavery laws - you haven't even acknowledges what goes on in Britain, where slavery laws are fully in place.
Ireland comes a very poor second to Britain in the way it exploits its workers, filling its catering trade with asylum seekers, empolying those who will take the lowes wages, importing au pairs to be worked like horses, beaten, sexually assaulted and then sent back if they complain - all in a civilised country where slavery laws are fully in place.
You put this up to suggest that Ireland is a primative country compared to Britain - and it's blown up in your hand somewhat.
You are a bit of a saddo really.
You ride on the shitty shirt-tails of goose-steppers like Looman, emitting the occasional squeak of support.
You make racist statements, deny you have made them or blame somebody else for them.
You run snivelling to "sir" when somebody comments on your racist behaviour.
All a bit of a mess really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM

Talk to a Turd and get shit for an answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:34 PM

That tirade of abuse confirms you unreasoning, obsessive nastiness.
"all these foreigners are perverts or criminals"
I discussed the over-representation of one group in one crime.

"You put this up to suggest that Ireland is a primative country compared to Britain "
Do you really believe that Jim?

"You ride on the shitty shirt-tails of goose-steppers like Looman, emitting the occasional squeak of support. "
I have said nothing in support of Bluesman.
I have deplored his use of language.

"You make racist statements, deny you have made them or blame somebody else for them."
I have never made a racist statement, nor quoted one from any other person.

"You run snivelling to "sir" when somebody comments on your racist behaviour."
I have asked Joe if you could be stopped from making attacks on me like this.
I think that you should stop it Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Elementary my dear Watson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM

As you may have noticed, I am not in the habit of responding to people with a plank in their eye concerning Pikeys. I want to make it clear that at no point have I ever made a derogatory comment against anyone of a different skin tone to myself.

I totally deplore the remarks made by Keith A of Hereford against members of the Pakistani community living in Britain, most I know work a 12 hour day. I have nothing but respect for the Chinese community, they work dammed hard and take more abuse than anyone I know from weekend John Waynes who can't hold their alcohol.

My old man went in on the first wave of the D Day landings, landing on Sword Beach. He took a piece of shrapnel in his right shoulder from a German 88mm.So you can imagine my views on bloody Hilter.


Right, back to Pikeys, I don't talk out of the side of my mouth on this or any other subject, like one or two here in the stroke brigade. If it needs said, I say it.

Like it or lump it, I say it as I see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:30 PM

Lyrics www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/clancy_brothers/...

The Jolly Tinker

As I went down a shady lane, at a door I chanced to knock
'Have you any pots or kettles, with rusty holes to block?'
'Well indeed I have, don't you know I have
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I have'

The misses came out to the door and she asked me to come in
'You're welcome jolly tinker and I hope you brought your tin'
'Well indeed I did, don't you know I did
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I did'

She took me through the kitchen and she led me through the hall
And the servants cried 'The devil, has he come to block us all
'Well indeed I have, don't you know I have
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I have'

She took me up the stairs, me lads, to show me what to do
Then she fell on the feathery bed and I fell on it too
'Well indeed I did, don't you know I did
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I did'

She then took out a frying pan and she began to knock
For to let the servants know, me lads, that I was at my work
'Well indeed I was, don't you know I was
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I was'

She put her hand into her pocket and she pulled out twenty pounds
'Take that my jolly tinker and we'll have another round'
'Well, indeed we will, don't you know we will
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed we will'

Well, I've been a jolly tinker for these forty years or more
But such a lovely job as that, I never did before
Well, indeed I didn't, don't you know I didn't...
To me right fol-ooral-addy, well indeed I didn't'


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:00 PM

I suspect that calling people "Pikeys" is not nice. I don't know the history of the word, but if it is meant to be offensive, it would be preferable to substitute another word. Calling people out on behavior that hurts others is one thing, but if we could stick to the behavior and not the generalizations...and we all have behavior that can and often should be criticized. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:07 PM

I'm sure it isn't nice, Mary, and he's doing it just to see how long this thread will be left alone before someone closes it. He abuses the readers who understand the value of the First Amendment and hold their noses as they pass over his offal posts.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 05:36 AM

"I totally deplore the remarks made by Keith A of Hereford against members of the Pakistani community living in Britain"
Me too - only difference - you have admitted your racism - doesn't make you any less the racist shit that you are though.
Your old man must have been very proud to have brought one of those he fought so bravely against into the world!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM

He forgot to say what remark he deplored.
No remark of mine could be described as deplorable.
Can either of you produce one?
Just one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM

Jim, in your opinion, by your definition of the word, I made posts on the "prejudice" thread that were racists.
My opinion is that I did not.

I call an expert witness!
The most erudite Mudcatter of all!
Who has a greater command of the English language than MtheGM?
None.
He followed that thread and declared my posts to be free of racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 06:46 AM

Gee, shucks, Keith. Blushblushblush!

Seriously: I make absolutely no claim to any particular expertise or erudition ~~ many Mudcatters are DPhils & PhDs and pundits in various fields and far more erudite than me ~~ or to any exceptional lingustic command.

But Keith is right that, in the posts in question, if I have correctly identified the thread referred to, although he, along with certain authoritative people, was critical of certain undenied activities of certain specific Pakistanis, I failed to find any racism aimed at the Pakistani community in general; and considered it necessary in the interests of what I perceived as justice to say so.

Insofar as my opinion is of any validity, that is what it remains.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 07:07 AM

It seems somewhat bizarre that Jim Carroll argues that Irish Pikeys have been part of the agricultural landscape for hundreds of years and that Pikey culture is a legitimate and part of the British heritage and needs to be accommodated. Part of the agricultural landscape Jim?

Of course, because caravan sites and scrapyards always feature in Turner's bucolic portraits of the British countryside.

The claims of "racism" are based on an incredibly dishonest intellectual fiction, one which governments are afraid of tackling. 

Pikeys are not by most definitions a race or ethnic group. They are Irish and English people who have at some point chosen to live tax free lives, and who tend to marry within their group.

This subculture, being nomadic, is by definition going to come into conflict with settled cultures – the two cannot co-exist easily – which is why they have always created hostility in Ireland and England.

Essentially your "race" tag is a scam, because if one defines an ethnic group by their behaviour, then any criticism of that behaviour becomes racist.

You are digging an even bigger hole for yourself this morning I see. Are you in government by any chance over there in the land of milk and honey and a bankrupt government ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:38 AM

Pikey is a pejorative slang term used mainly in the United Kingdom[1][2] to refer to Irish Travellers, gypsies or people of low social class. Pikey is also sometimes called a piker in the United States,[3] but a piker in Australia and New Zealand means someone who refuses to do something within a group.[4]

But "piker" in the U.S. is a rarely used term that ranks about the same as calling someone a "slacker" or a "bum." No big deal. I get the impression that the reason Bluesman continues to try to control the conversation with this pejorative word is because he's a relatively anonymous individual here and can't be held accountable for his slurs.

It's time to stop this thread. Or people who know who "Bluesman" is need to give him a verbal knock upside the head (or better yet, you be Moe to his Curly and give him a dope slap). We're tired of your slurs, and it's time for you to move along.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM

LOL what would a septic tank know about the situation ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM

I again deplore Bluesman's abusive language, but Jim's is more full of hate and his is directed at Mudcatters (this one anyway.)

Just count all the shits and shitties!
See all the personal abuse.

Seriously Jim, to be so full of bile and hate is not healthy.
What have I ever done to you, other than disagree?
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM

"LOL what would a septic tank know about the situation ?"

Being that you're the turd in the punch bowl here, Bluesman, I'd expect you to have the inside track on septic tanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:03 PM

Ask Sherlock Holmes, Watson.

Here is the link Bruce.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/irish_travelers.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:04 PM

"It seems somewhat bizarre that Jim Carroll argues that Irish Pikeys have been part of the agricultural landscape for hundreds of years "
First hand information from many of the farming families we recorded in Ireland and Britain that bears out the fact that Travellers were an essential part of the rural economy right up to the middle of the 20th century is to be found in abundance in our collection at the British Library.
Huge amounts of evidence in the writings of Hamish Henderson, Norman Dodds, Sharon and George Gmelch, Artelia Court and Alen McWeeney.
Probably the most authorative work on English gypsies is by Angus Fraser, a civil servant and Chairman of the Board of Customs and Excise for HMG (The Gypsies - part of the People of Europe series Blackwell publishers 1992 - re-printed twice)
Periodicals like 'Scottish Studies', 'Tocher' 'Bealoideas' 'Folklore', 'The Folksong Journal' all carry masses of information on the Travellers role in rural life - perhaps you can find somebosy to read some of it to you sometime.
More information from School of Scottish Studies, Aberdeen University, Limerick and Galway Universities, University College Dublin
Now can you tell us where we can find your view verified in any way (apart from the fascist rags that don't even make it to the bookshops)
"Pikeys are not by most definitions a race or ethnic group."
Travellers are a recognised ethnic group - you've had the quote from the Times - perhaps you couldn't get anyone to read if for you first time round, so here it is again:

1,000 years of prejudice, hatred and distrust
There are few tales that begin in the Indian sub-continent and Irish marshlands during the first millennium after the birth of Christ and reach Basildon in Essex 1,000 years later.
In between there are travels through eastern Europe, Irish famines and Nazi killing camps. Then there are the prejudices, the disputes and the clashing of communities. The history of the 300,000-strong travelling communities, now encamped on 8,000-plus pitches in England, is complex.
First, there are the groupings: the Roma, who are believed to have emerged from Asia 1,000 years ago and to have split into the Romany of western Europe, the Domari of the Middle East and Eastern Europe and the Lomavren of Central Europe.
The Irish Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees and share a common language, Shelta. A study earlier this year provided DNA evidence that it is a distinct ethnic minority, which separated from the settled Irish community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago. Previously, it was believed that they were landowners who took to the road during the Great Famine. In 2000, they were ruled to be a distinct ethnic group, while Gypsies gained this status in 1976.
Then there are the New Age travellers whose crusty roots lie in the hippy culture of the mid-20th century. One can also throw in a sprinkling of Scottish Travellers, with their own musical and linguistic traditions dating back to the 12th century, and the Travelling Showpeople who have entertained generations with their fairgrounds and circuses.
Gypsies were one of the ethnic groups targeted by the Nazis. At least 250,000 were killed in the Holocaust.

You boasted of your father's part in the war, yet you make it clear that you would applaud a repeat of the massacre of three quarters of a million gypsies by the same breed of scum that he fought.

"I call an expert witness!"
Sorry Keith - evidence over-rides character witnesses in any court, especially the one you have produced here - hardly unbiased.
Your suggestion that all male Pakistanis are culturally inclined to paedophelia speaks for itself - it's nobody else's statement, and even if it was, it really doesn't matter - it's an incredible piece of racist stereortyping - and it's yours alone. You have never produced an actual quote from anybody saying such, "All male Pakistanis......". You put it forward as your belief, and your putting it forward makes it your responsibility. Such a piece of non- researched shite would put a whole community under suspicion in respect to children's welfare were it to be taken seriously - thankfully it belongs to you only - alongside the BNP, English Defence League and other racists.
Unlike speech, the problem with putting something on a public forum is that you can't un-write it - it's there as a reference point for as long as it's archived.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:13 PM

Certainly my impression on the Pakistani thread was that Keith was saying that there was something wrong with Pakistanis or Pakistani culture.

Even White Man's current praises of people however, portray those people as types not individuals. Plainly he sees the ethnic or societal difference and proceeds to generalise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 12:20 PM

"especially the one you have produced here - hardly unbiased."

,.,.

In what way do you consider me 'biased', Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM

"Did you copy that from this week's "Ireland's Own" Jim ? "
Came out of the Times - if you'd been reading what other people write you'd have known that.
It's the official recognition of Travellers both in Britain and throughout Europe, established by research not raised-armed-saluting.
Sorry about that - you're officially a racist as well as having been proven one by your own bile.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:47 PM

While you are quoting The Times Jim, here is todays editorial.




"September 14 2011 12:01AM
Society must be ever-vigilant against the temptation to make bogeymen out of travellers. Frequently they jar with those who surround them. In the idealised tapestry of the countryside, the traveller site is the point at which the neat patchwork begins to fray. Even in a more chaotic urban setting, a society shares codes, practices and universal expectations, and traveller communities often seem to share none of them. Their very existence, at times, can feel like a problem. Yet history, in Europe and elsewhere, is littered with grotesque examples of what can happen when society decides this problem must be solved.

No one will allow a repeat of the terrible persecution that gypsies suffered last century under the Nazis. But the surest refuge for an ethnic minority is in the rule of law. So it is all the more shocking that it is the travellers themselves who are the ones flouting the rule of law with utter abandon.

Too many of Britain's travellers behave in a manner entirely unacceptable to society at large. Those with homes close to traveller sites too often live in fear of burglary or violence. Frequently, travellers have muddied the waters between being victims of dislike and distrust, and deserving of it.

The discovery of an alleged organised crime and slavery ring operating from traveller sites is a whole new category of horror. From a corpse found in a wood, to captives allegedly held at Greenacres site in Leighton Buzzard on a starvation diet, the details of the latest revelations are horrific. But the horrifying spectre of slavery in the English countryside has risen, in part, because of a wariness on the part of authorities to meddle in traveller affairs, and a willingness, on the part of travellers, to exploit this.

It has been suggested that some of those held on sites had been living as slaves for as long as 15 years. Some of those freed have refused to co-operate with police; others have protested that traveller families were providing a home and employment for those who would otherwise have lacked it. Even under this interpretation, we still appear to be left with a situation whereby vulnerable people have been held for long periods of time, earning far less than the minimum wage and in severely unhealthy conditions. This would stretch belief in an inner city factory, or even on a remote agricultural farm. We must ask ourselves why it could happen on a caravan site.

Through their separation from society, travellers do not thrive. Statistics on this community are vague, but what fragments are available to us are little short of horrifying, indicating terribly low life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality and maternal death. Less than a decade ago, Save the Children estimated that 10,000 traveller children in the UK were not in school, while another study found that only one in five aged 11 to 16 was in secondary school.

There is some moral distance between slavery and the flouting of planning laws. The shape of the battle over the travellers' site of Dale Farm, Essex, nonetheless, indicates a community accustomed to considering the law only as an obstacle, in this respect as in all others. It is vulnerable and exploited groups themselves which have the most to fear when the reach of law becomes limited. Planning disputes merely show that Britain's travellers must be held accountable under the law like all others. The horror of human traffic in the heart of England shows how badly they should want to be."


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:52 PM

Have avoided doing this in the hope that Bluesman and his merry men might show a bit of humanity and recognise Travellers for what they are - human beings, but hasn't happened so far.
A selection of "Pikey scum" for the music lovers among us
Jim Carroll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Stewart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Robertson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reilly
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/phoebe_smith.htm
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/phoebe_smith.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doherty_%28musician%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Doran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt
http://www.usscots.com/article/detail/Tinkers---The-Travelling-tradition-in-Scotland/


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM

A refreshing view of travellers by Nick Dow

I must say I disagree with the marginalisation of any group by stereotyping. I do find it quite interesting however that while the type of broad brush stroke that is occuring here is considered so wrong, it does seem quite ,by some factions, to class me as a 'Bastard Brit' who has opressed the rest of the world for years. Simply because I happen to have been born in England.

Ah well, C'est la vie as they say in Hull...


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:24 PM

Jim Carroll, the tall stories you posted here have been torn to pieces on a daily basis. Take a break from it, these guys above are lining up to supply the true facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Richard,
"Certainly my impression on the Pakistani thread was that Keith was saying that there was something wrong with Pakistanis or Pakistani culture."

Your impression was completely wrong.
I stated repeatedly that I had no knowledge of their culture and could not form such an opinion about it.

My case was just to establish that there was an over-representation.

Jim, I offered MtheGM not as a character witness, but an expert witness.
An expert on English usage.
If your meaning of the word "racism" differs from his, I suggest that yours is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

akenaton
The Times has been scrupulously fair on the Dale Farm issue and most of above is no exception - good and bad in all communities and all the crimes mentioned so far not only take place in the settled community but almost certainly originated there.
Up to he eighties the officially recognised most common crime among Travellers was driving without tax or insurance - it took a mass exodus into the towns and cities for them to pick up real bad habits.
As far as the law is concerned, the key question has been totally ignored.
The Travellers, by their very existance, have no alternative - if they stay where they are they will be breaking the law; if they move onto the side of the road they will be breaking the law.
Which is more desirable; that they remain on an ex-scrap-yard in one single, managable group, or that they scatter into hundreds of illegal sites all over south east England and beyond at the start of winter?
The removal of the law requiring councils to provide sites has automatically criminalised them as a community.
If they move into houses they are harrased and threatened by racists like Bluesman (assuming he has the bottle to back up his racist abuse with action); if they stop illegally they are moved on and/or prosecuted - added to this, in Ireland, if they are found camping illegally their caravans will be conficated.
Repeating Dalek-like "the law must be obeyed at all costs" is as crass as the people who put it forward - it is not an alternative.
'Bastard Brit'
Long time since I've heard that Dave, and certainly never in forty years visiting and living in Ireland, and never addressed to either me nor Pat (a London Scot) - I think the last time someone said it was a Brit claiming to have had it said to him - not to say there aren't any BBs, mind you, or Irish, Welsh, German, Yanks......
Don't know what circles you move in - maybe it's the company you keep
Thanks for the Nick Dow clip - breath of fresh air in the cess-pit this thread has proved to be.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM

The Times of course supports "law and order". It is the paper of the rich and right wing - who can afford £700 per hour (or more) lawyers to eliminate the law as an obstacle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM

Here we go, "the paper of the rich" well if you had made it in life no doubt you would be buying it and not on here talking SH 1 T at every farts end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 04:28 PM

Hey, Turd, rough day?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:19 PM

the british justice system is one of the most hide bound and bigoted in the industrial world. when i was practicing law i recall the british lawyers constantly telling the reat joke:"the golden thread of british justice is innocent untill proven irish". good goddess do those who like british jstice follow the sad trail of wrongfull convictions and fabricated evidence.

even denning admitted thre american justice system was much more democratic and compensation and appeal oriented than the courts in the uk

when he was master of the rolls, lord denning siad that ir was a shame they had aboloshed the death penatily because tyhe brimingham six and the maguires would never have gotten public exoneration. their public exonaration brought the syatem of justice into disrepute. to denning it was better to han innocnent people than admit errors.

i do find the anti traveller stuff offensive. most of their problems are born of a lack of job opportunities. when we in canada had an influx of roma back fifteen years ago the bigots wrung their hands and cried warning. however unlike britain canada had extensive education for immigrants and after fifteen years most of them are now working at the first decent jobs in their lives and prospering.we have a refuge policy that if you get to canadian soil and can prove you will be discriminated at home you automatically get refugee status. one of the great things about canada.we have a country committed to multiculturtalism and wave after of weave of immigrants have been able to join in the mainstream. we have had problems but nothing like european counties with their deeply engrained bigotry and racism. i just hope our new conserrvative majority government doesn't disassemble the immigration. system

and finally it gets rich richard bridges calling people racist when he never finds a fault with the murders commited by his government and his army against irish people(and others)--repeatedly.there's no point in trying to educate keith--he's beyond ignorance


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:32 AM

"but an expert witness."
Expert in what - I remember him when he was a good folk journalist, a long time ago?(never knew him to write about Pakistani culture - did you?) -
He can't find racism in the claim that "all male Pakistanis" are inclined to paedophelia by their culture?
Or that when you doctored your own cut-'n-pastes by removing essential quotes - that was a minor misdemeanor which we all did from time-to-time.
Do you think you could let me have his phone number in case I need a character witness - perhaps you can send it when you send me your source - in full for the "all male Pakistanis.... pimps" quote.
Isn't it time you stopped hiding behind "expert witnesses" and took responsibility for your own statements - stop being pathetic?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:45 AM

Jim,
"claim that "all male Pakistanis" are inclined to paedophelia by their culture?"

Anti-racist Pakistanis Saffiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown, all stated that the over-rep in this crime was due to the custom of men marrying late in life, sexual relationships outside marriage not being acceptable, and unhappy arranged cousin marriage.

I assumed that the proportion of males experiencing those customs would be close to 100%.
How far out was I Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:50 AM

...and Jim, I did not doctor anything.

Ollaimh, so those charged are being set up because they are Irish.
All those starving, excrement smeared, shaven headed wretches are undercover policemen.
Cunning bastards!
How the accused must wish that you were still practicing law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:31 AM

I think it is very curious timing. The police have known about this since 2008, but it is now that they act.

It should be a reminder of the behaviour of gangmasters before laws were passed controlling them, and not what it is being used to remind people about.

Interestingly, it is also synchronous with a report of folks in housen murdering a girl with learning difficulties, which brings to mind other stories of imprisonment and torture of such people by housedwellers.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:54 AM

"How far out was I Jim? "
About "all male Pakistanis" distance Keith
And yes - you did doctor your texts, just as you sent fake postings in an assumed name (and were reprimaded for same - as I said, a sad mess.
All on record
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM

It's not so much the phrase (Bastard Brit) as the attitude, Jim. Neither is it the circles I move in - apart from this one! I was simply pointing out ,obviously too obscurely, that on Mudcat in particular there are times when it seems that stereotyping the white English male is the only permissible abuse allowed.

I could find a few examples I am sure but I won't labour the point if you don't. I don't want to drift too far from the thread. Glad you liked the Nick Dow clip anyway.

Cheers

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:10 AM

Jim, what % of males WERE exposed to those customs then?
And Jim, this was not my claim.
I reported the claim and said I accepted it, but it was not mine.

I did not doctor anything.
I did once post under the name of a Guest who was abusing our hospitality.
It was obvious it was me not him.
There was no deception.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM

Keith
You have based a condemnation of the ENTIRE MALE PAKISTANI POPULATION on the OPINION of one single unknown politician.
Here you have suggested (or "hesitated to suggest") that Travellers are "over-represented" in the crime of holding slaves in Britain.
You have defended the right of Bluesman to strut his fascist stuff as free speech and, from the sidelines (as is your wont) have gone along with much he has to say.
And you claim you're not a racist - give us a break!
I think you have summed up your outlook on life fairly succinctly - don't you - that's enough for me anyway
Now let these good people get on with the debate in hand - no more Alice in Wonderland rabbit-holes eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:53 AM

Olly - you expected the British Army to stand and be shot at by terrorists and not shoot back? Grow up. My objections were to the terrorists not to all Irish. It was the UK fascists who labelled all Irish "Bogwogs", and I objected to that. I also object to the terrorists and their supporters singing songs glorifying the killing of the English. They would not (I hope) glorify the killing of Jews or Africans or West Indians or Indians or Pakistanis and they should not do it of the English.

But back to the core point here - the events reported clearly show that enslavement is not endemic to traveller behaviour patterns, rather something done by the very few, mostly related, yet White Man carries on pretending that they show the opposite. That is a pretty good exemplar of bigotry.

As is Keith retelling stories about how Pakistani common behaviour makes the men paedophiles. I wonder what the women do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:03 AM

Jim,
"You have based a condemnation of the ENTIRE MALE PAKISTANI POPULATION (No I have not. Just a tiny minority)on the OPINION of one single unknown politician.(And all the others)
Here you have suggested that Travellers are "over-represented" in the crime of holding slaves in Britain.(Fair comment)
You have defended the right of Bluesman to strut his fascist stuff as free speech(No I have Not.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:17 AM

Richard,
"As is Keith retelling stories about how Pakistani common behaviour makes the men paedophiles."
No. This is not paedophilia.
I always accepted that only a tiny minority are involved and that most sex offenders are white.
I just discussed the over-representation of a group in one kind of offending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:44 AM

"Jim, do you ever have anything to offer a debate besides calling people racists "
Bluesman
I have offered my own experiences, documentary sources, and argument - you appear to be following the practice of your comrade Keith in not reading what others have to say.
As afr as \i'm concerned you hare an openly decalred racist - unlike Keithie who is still swinging on the closet door
In themeantime, back at the ranch:
From the Irish Times this morning
It seems Britain is moving into the Human Rights abuse league
Jim Carroll
PS Keith You wrote that YOU BELIEVED "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" were culturally inclined to paedophelis, putting them all under suspicion.
No more on this - your nest is well shat in.

TRAVELLER RIGHTS BEING ABUSED, CLAIMS UN ADVISER
Dale Farm eviction planned for Monday

MARK HENNESSY
London Editor
The British government is fail¬ing in its international obligations to house Travellers, despite pro¬moting democracy and the protec-tion of human rights in other coun¬tries, a United Nations adviser complained yesterday during a visit to the Dale Farm Travellers' site in Essex.
Council workers continued to make preparations yesterday, including the laying of a tempo¬rary road across a field, for the evictions of up to 80 Traveller fam¬ilies from the site outside Basildon yesterday, scheduled to begin early next Monday.
UN adviser Prof Yves Cabannes said the local council was infringing international human rights in three key areas - the right of ethnic minorities to be pro¬tected, the right to have adequate housing and security of tenure and the right to be protected from forced evictions.
The Travellers affected by the evictions, who are living on land they own but for which they have been refused planning permission, were not "the ones breaking the law", he said. Instead, it was the council which had failed to provide the required number of Trav¬ellers' pitches.
Police officers are oh duty at the entry roads to Dale Farm. However, residents among the settled community and Travellers, the Travellers' supporters and members of the press are allowed access, The Irish Times found yesterday.
Grattan Puxon of the Gypsy Council said it would serve papers on Basildon council tomorrow charging that seven Travellers were unfit to be moved. He claimed that the Court of Appeal was on a four-hour standby to hear the case tomorrow.
However, the council said it had no knowledge of the last-minute legal bid. "As far as we are con¬cerned, we have reached the end of the legal road on this one," a spokesman said. "There isn't any¬thing more to be said."
Seven travellers have been examined by Dr Frank Arnold, who found that one is disabled and bed-bound and two have life-threatening illnesses and need electric-powered nebulisers, which, if lost, would "certainly" mean that they would develop pneumonia and "die within days or weeks".
"It is my professional opinion that a significant number of the residents of Dale Farm who are being ordered to leave would come to serious and predictable harm if they are evicted under present arrangements.
"For some, this harm would be irreversible," he said, adding that Basildon Borough Council's examination of the Travellers' health has "been conducted with a lack of appropriate medical advice, due attention to obvious health concerns and common sense".
Some Travellers living on the illegal part of Dale Farm are expected to move into legal pitches elsewhere on the encampment. Basildon council has said in a letter that it would not interfere with any such moves.
Former Unicef official Sir Richard Jolly has supported the Travellers, saying that he had watched the events at Dale Farm "with a growing sense of outrage", adding that the British government has "clear obligations" under UN law to protect children.
A Travellers delegation met the House of Commons all-Party Parliamentary Group for Gypsies and Travellers, where they called on communities secretary of state Eric Pickles to order a last-minute halt to the eviction':


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:51 AM

While you are quoting The Times Jim, always quote the full story, don't cut little bits out to suit your case. Did you not see this ????

"Too many of Britain's travellers behave in a manner entirely unacceptable to society at large. Those with homes close to traveller sites too often live in fear of burglary or violence. Frequently, travellers have muddied the waters between being victims of dislike and distrust, and deserving of it.

The discovery of an alleged organised crime and slavery ring operating from traveller sites is a whole new category of horror. From a corpse found in a wood, to captives allegedly held at Greenacres site in Leighton Buzzard on a starvation diet, the details of the latest revelations are horrific. But the horrifying spectre of slavery in the English countryside has risen, in part, because of a wariness on the part of authorities to meddle in traveller affairs, and a willingness, on the part of travellers, to exploit this. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fossil
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 05:52 AM

Mud-elves, this thread has gone totally toxic.

I suggest its immediate removal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:01 AM

Jim, I did not use the word paedophilia.
I have told you repeatedly. and I tell you again, I do not regard it as paedophilia.
Teenagers were targeted because they were easier to ensnare.
"Easy meat."
I said I believed it only because it was said to be true by people within that community who are eminent national figures.
I made no claims about it.
My case was just the over-representation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:19 AM

Or if the Irish Times doesn't suit all your racist
tastes try the English one
Keith - piss -off, you said what you said and it's all in print
Jim Carroll

UN COMES TO THE RESCUE OF TRAVELLERS FACING EVICTION
David Sanderson, Fay Schlesinger

The United Nations is to debate the fate of Dale Farm's travellers at a conference in Kenya after one of its inspectors visited the site in Essex yesterday.
Yves Cabannes, chairman of the UN Advisory Group on Forced Evictions (UNAGFE), said that the 400-plus travellers, who are likely to be evicted from the greenbelt site on Monday, were the victims of a "violation of inter¬national law".
The UN adviser said that Basildon Council, which is preparing to spend up to £8 million on clearing the 51 pitches from the site, was violating human rights law in three areas: the right to adequate housing; the right to be defended from forced eviction; and the right of ethnic minorities to be protected from discrimination.
"The people who are abusing the law are the council, not the travellers," Professor Cabannes said yesterday. "We are used to seeing millions of people losing their homes in Zimbabwe, China and Nigeria — how is one country unable to solve, the problem of 51 pitches?"
Professor Cabannes, who compiled a UN report two years ago into forced evictions of "minority communities in southeast England", has been invited to a UN conference in Nairobi next week to discuss Dale Farm and other forced evictions around the world.
Also invited are the four other com¬pilers of that report, including Candy Sheridan, a representative of the Irish travellers at Dale Farmland Joseph Jones, chairperson of the Gypsy Council.
In the weeks before and after its 2009 visit to southeast England, the UN advisory group led by Professor Cabannes had compiled reports on forced evictions in Port Harcourt, Nigeria, where up to 300,000 "slum dwellers" were being moved to allow for a waterfront development, and in Istanbul, where the burgeoning urban population had prompted evictions in poorer areas of the Turkish city.
Its report that year said: "Imprison¬ment of Gypsies and travellers for alleged offences relating to living on their own land has to be banned as a planning policy/practice, especially in a situation where the districts are fail¬ing to deliver planning permissions and to designate adequate sites."
A spokeswoman for UN-Habitat, which is organising next week's con¬ference, said that Dale Farm would defi¬nitely be on the agenda. This month another UN body, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimina¬tion, called for the eviction to be halted, saying that it would affect family life disproportionately.
Tony Ball, the leader of Basildon Council, dismissed the comments of Professor Cabannes: "The UN refers to the rights of the families involved. Basil¬don Council respects those along with the rights of the vast majority of its residents who want this illegal camp moved after ten years of stalling tactics by the travellers."
The High Court ruled last month that no human rights had been in¬fringed during the dispute. Council bail¬iffs are to start ejecting 86 families of travellers from the 51 illegal pitches on Monday. Essex Police are on standby.
The travellers, who own the land but have not been granted planning per¬mission, and their supporters have said that they will resist eviction. However, some caravans left the site yesterday and, according to a Dale Farm repre¬sentative, two elderly residents had gone to stay with relatives because of the stress of impending eviction.
There have been suggestions that some of the most vulnerable travellers from the illegal pitches would be al¬lowed to move to legal pitches on the adjacent travellers' site. There are 34 pitches, which can each take a touring caravan and mobile home.
Ms Sheridan said that Professor Cabannes's visit showed that the plight of residents was comparable with global humanitarian crises.
"We hear about forced evictions in Africa and China — that's what hap¬pening here in Britain," she said. "It's a massive abuse of human rights on your doorstep. The visit from somebody of such stature has left the residents overjoyed."
The Government defended the council's actions. A spokesman for the Department for Communities and Local Government said: "The British courts have found that the develop¬ments at Dale Farm are in breach of planning law and Basildon Council is within its rights to evict travellers from the site."

l300,000
estimated size of Britain's traveller community
8,000
or more legal pitches in England and Wales
2001
when traveller families first began setting up illegal pitches at Dale Farm
£8m
what Basildon Council is preparing to spend on clearing the site. Policing costs could also run into millions


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:29 AM

Size of Traveller population should read 300,000 -- don't want to be accused of getting up to Keith's traicks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 06:50 AM

"While you are quoting The Times Jim, always quote the full story, don't cut little bits out to suit your case. Did you not see this ????"

Didn't cut anything Bluesman - that's the article in full - go and check on line - only Keith doctors cut-n-pastes
Now respond to what the report says
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM

Jim: Thank you for the "good folk journalist" [02.32 AM]. It is true I do little of such now, tho still have a regular outlet for theatre criticism which was always my main journalistic occupation.

My phone # is not ex-directory & can be ascertained thru all usual channels ~ including the simple expedient of asking me for it if you want it. I know of no reason why Keith should know it ~~ we have never spoken & our acquaintance is confined entirely to communication via this forum.

I still await an answer to my enquiry of yesterday at 12.20 PM ~"In what way do you consider me 'biased', Jim?"

I repeat that I make no extraordinary claims to any particular erudition or expertise, though am not unappreciative of the compliment implied in any attributions of such to me.

Regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM

Jim,
"Keith - piss -off, you said what you said and it's all in print"

Yes it is Jim, and everything I have said about it here is true.
You can produce nothing to support your constant attacks on me.
Why must you keep trying?
Everyone must be sick of it.
I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:44 AM

"job done". Does this mean you'll shut up at last?

Probably not. You'll switch to having a go at Muslims, Blacks, Jews, Irish, Gays etc., under one of your many other aliases.

With so many nom de plumes to choose from, do you ever wake up in the morning and wonder who the hell you are?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 10:43 AM

Please. People are "who". White Man is "what".


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:10 AM

Oh Richard, that was one of your boobs, you seem to like those.


Fred's, I made it very clear on this thread that I have many friends who are coloured and they have my respect, so wasting your time attempting to label me.

No Fred's,I don't have aliases, nice to see you back on a thread without tears, drama and threats of resigning. But for how long. Now that remains the question.


Oh look, Pikeys caught out telling lies, the Dale Farm rodents actually own houses in the land of milk and honey. Great comments as well. Why do Pikey women all look like scrubbers ?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2035826/Dale-Farm-eviction-Travellers-secretly-Irish-houses.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:11 AM

Oh White Man, how little you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM

How long is it since I heard anyone say "coloured"?

Apart from a racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:19 AM

Richard, you will be pleased to know, they are producing Lifebouy again. You should be able to locate a stockist in Kent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:22 AM

"In what way do you consider me 'biased', Jim?""
Yoou've had it Mike.
Anybody who can't see racism in "All male Pakistanis.." has to be in my book.
Likewise in writing off the faking of newspaper cuttings in order to change their intent as something we've all done.
Maybe I have you wrong and you were only trying to help a very lame dog over a very high stile - in which case, I apologise - though I would have thought it wiser to call in the vet.
Apart from that, my opinion still stands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:33 AM

Jim,If you are going to use my posts against me, do not edit them to make a case. Show it all.

AGAIN, I did not fake any cutting.
The bit I left out said that most sex offenders were white.
I HAD ALREADY POSTED THAT BIT
I HAD ACKNOWLEDGED THE TRUTH OF IT.
IT WAS NOT IN DISPUE.
THERE WAS NO REASON TO POST IT AGAIN!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 11:48 AM

Re that post Jim keeps using against me.
This link takes you to the post before it, Don T, to give some perspective.
It will take a few seconds because it is a long thread.
thread.cfm?threadid=135090&messages=2602#3094276


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 12:28 PM

Curt to the chase - this is Keith sying what he said.
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 12:36 PM

PS No "knowledgeable people" have made such a definitive statement - one obscure politician has made a vague and totally unqualified reference to a link between paedophelia (that's what the discussion was about - the statuary rape of underage girls) and Muslim culture - he was an Asian amd many of his fellow Asian took offence at what he said; but even he certainly DID NOT say that "all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" - unless Keith has doctored his texts again and taken it out - hardly likely.
These are his words alone, and unless he can prove otherwise - leave it alone.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:14 PM

I fear, Jim, I can make neither heads nor tails of your farrago in supposed response to my query ~~ "All male" what? No recollection of mentioning newspaper cuttings, fake or otherwise. What did I claim to be "something we have all done"? Where? When?

You appear to be in some sort of state of confusion, I fear. Ah, well. Just let it pass and so will I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:41 PM

Some fantastic news to share. The BBC news just reported that some Pikeys are currently leaving the site of Dale Farm, ending their illegal occupation.

The involvement of Pikeys in crime has been highlighted extensively in the media recently resulting in more and more complaints such as anti-social behaviour, dumping of rubbish, grievous bodily harm, drug dealing, sex trafficking and theft being reported to the police as people are now coming forward to report it.

This will put pressure on the government and police to do something about it, the days of police turning a blind eye is well and truly over.

One man who I have great admiration for is Len Gridley, he headed the campaign to get them off the land. Police confirmed he has received death threats for his stance.

He said, "They want it both ways… nobody is going to put up with them anymore,"

What is clear is that the Pikeys growing political awareness has not yet been matched by any large-scale support in the wider community. Among the settled community they remain a profoundly unpopular cause.

So some are bailing out before Monday's deadline. Wonderful news, I think I will sit back and treat myself to a glass of double malt.

Enjoy your evening.

Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

Look at my actual post jim.
My first sentence tells you what I do not believe, i.e. Dons's list.
I do not believe they are all rapists , paedophiles etc.

I then say I believe what has been said by, Jack Straw, (senior statesman, high office holder incl. Home Secretary and MP for a large Pakistani population) and THREE eminent, ANTI-racist Pakistanis.

They ALL said Pakistanis were over-represented because of their marriage and relationship customs.
Why should anyone not believe them?

I assume that all or most men were subject to those customs.

I accept their expert view as I might accept a doctor's diagnosis.
I believe it but it is his opinion not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:45 PM

Keep my name out of your posts Bluesman.
We have nothing in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:13 PM

I personally would have no trouble demanding that the use of the word "Pikey" not be allowed on this forum, since it is obviously being used in a derogatory manner.

I also think that we must take on the most horrible of crimes, regardless of where they lead us, and that includes the pope, high officials, etc. The law must be sure and swift, and of course, just.

I also think we need to look for legal ways to prevent the evictions, and non-legal ways to end both discrimination of traditionally "out" groups, and also help them organize themselves so that the sore points with the "in" groups are minimized. I am talking about less grevious issues than slavery, sex trafficing, etc...more along the lines of garbage disposal, loud or boisterous conduct etc...and this applies to everyone..not a particular group we have been discussing..and of course should apply at least as severely to the "majority" group or groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:20 PM

Regrettably "swift and sure" tends to conflict with "just". Furthermore the nature of rule by majority tends to imply the existence of a concomitant minority, so "democratic" can also conflict with "just" - and that is the problem here that White Man cannot or will not see. If the law is to be respected, it must be just.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:21 PM

"I fear, Jim, I can make neither heads nor tails of your farrago in supposed response to my query"
Sorry Mike - the "All male Pakistanis..." has just been dealt with in full in the last few posts. Your name was dragged into it when Keith asked for, and got a character reference:
"I failed to find any racism aimed at the Pakistani community in general; and considered it necessary in the interests of what I perceived as justice to say so."
As I said - if you can find no racism in his "all male Pakistanis" = paedophiles statement, we live on different planets.
I firmly believe Keith to be as I have described him in the past - Keith and Bluesman "go together like a horse and carriage" (sorry, couldn't get it to scan).
The fake cut-'n- paste was his removal of part of his Jack Straw quote (The bit about there being no racist conclusions to be drawn) which you dismissed as a misdemeanor "something we have all done at one time or another" or words to that effect) - I suggest you plough your way through the aptly named "Muslim prejudice" thread.
The relevance it has to this thread is the racism that has emerged here in relation to Travellers; Keith suggested (hinted actually) that Travellers are over-reperesented when it comes to the crime of slavery - sound familiar??.
Done and dusted as far as I'm concerned, but feel free to PM me should your brain explode while searching the Muslim thread.
It was not my intention to draw you into this crap - but I am still bemused...
Another time - Another place
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM

Jim, now this thread is done and dusted, what do you make of this story on the BBC news tonight ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14938518


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 03:52 PM

What the **** has it got to do with either me or Travellers.
I hold no brief for any of the combatants in Ireland, I have never expressed any sympathy for either side; I am neither a nationalist nor a republican.
I think the last comment I ade on Mudcat was "a plague on both your houses" - that has always been my position and remains my position.
What do I think of it - I think you are attemping to dig yourself out of the shit-heap you've dug your way into with your fascist rantings - what do you think of the following:
l300,000 = estimated size of Britain's traveller community
8,000 = or more legal pitches in England and Wales
2001 = when traveller families first began setting up illegal pitches at Dale Farm
£8m = what Basildon Council is preparing to spend on clearing the site. Policing costs could also run into millions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 07:42 PM

Jim, I do not know why you keep attacking me with lies.
I am no racist.
You have to lie to make your case.
You have a problem.
The cutting I "doctored."
I just told you yet again.
I HAD POSTED IT BEFORE.
I HAD ACKNOWLEDGED THE TRUTH OF IT.
IT WAS NEVER IN DISPUTE.
WHY WOULD I POST IT AGAIN?

The cultural thing did not come from me.
It could not.
I know nothing about it.
The people who did are not racists.
Most were well known anti-racist Pakistanis.

There was an over-representation.
Sorry, but there was.
We had the thread, it is closed, for sanity's sake leave it Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Fossil
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 02:31 AM

Why is this thread still active?

It has nothing to do with music.

The participants currently seem to be using by turns violent, abusive, sexist, racist language and personal abuse.

I appeal to the moderators = THIS THREAD MUST GO!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 03:06 AM

None of the threads down here is about music, and no-one has to read them.
I am disappointed that under the new regime I still have to defend myself from groundless attacks on my character.

Jim, the "doctored" cutting.
Do you deny that I had already posted the missing bit?
If you do I will provide a link and you will look ridiculous.

Do you deny that I had already acknowledged the truth of it?
If you do I will provide a link and you will look ridiculous.

It is no ground for calling me racist.

Those eminent, high profile people from their deep knowledge stated that it was aspects of culture,(impinging on ALL) that led some into offending.
No action was taken against any of them because it is not racist to say that, except on planet Jim.
So how can it be racist for me to say, "That sounds reasonable."?

You have no grounds for calling me racist.
You are driven by obsession and make yourself ridiculous.
Drop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 03:27 AM

Jim: Asked again & again by Keith to post evidence of your obsessive accusations of racism against him, the best you can come up with is the following ambiguous and slight observation, in which he quotes another poster's words back at him to demonstrate the narrow limits of his assertions, which are not his anyhow but quoted from other impeccable sources which you unconvincingly endeavour to belittle [Jack Straw is a 'minor politician', is he? Away you!] ~~

"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb." ~~

out of all the, as you admit, acres and acres that both of you have posted on the subject. You then use this pinprick as a great stick to beat me with because I decline to accept your valuation of it as an absolute knockdown no-possibility-of-denial proof of your accusations, in order to demonstrate that I am 'biased'.

Oh come on. Is that really the best you can do? You reckon you are the only one who is 'bemused'?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM

The impression I have had from the weight of Keith's posts that I have read is that he tends towards a belief in racial tendencies. And the overall impression I have is that M the GM tends to be prepared to defend that.

If you lie down with dogs you tend to get fleas.

I disagree with Jim on quite a number of things, including his wish to exclude musicians not up to his preferred standard and his wish to defend certain terrorists, but as to the charges of racial bias on this thread it seems to me that his case is hard to rebut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 04:16 AM

I am a scientist Richard.
No-one has ever been ableto link race and behaviour.
All the evidence is that there is none.
I am certain none exists.

"Keith's posts that I have read is that he tends towards a belief in racial tendencies."
I find that inexplicable Richard.
Only prejudice could explain that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM

I am a scientist.

That made your inability to accept the data harder to understand.

I find that inexplicable

What I found particularly hard was you persisting with "Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" arguments after the only study to date concluded that no racial conclusions could be reached because the data was so poor.

Only prejudice could explain that.

That was the conclusion I eventually reached...


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 04:43 AM

"Oh come on. Is that really the best you can do? You reckon you are the only one who is 'bemused'? "
On the basis of that statement he continued a thread into over a thousand posts.
I really can't be arse Mike - if you can't see anything racist in hias posts - others available if you wade through the shit he has written on others - pehrahps you would like to just explain (he hasn't) his "over-representation of Travellers in slavery sideswipe, and his defence for free speech for fascist Blueshirt.
I don't believe you to be a racist, but I certainly think you are an apologist for at least one of them.
Richard - would be interested to learn where I have ever suggested "excluding" anybody up to my preffered standars - but not on this thread please.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:27 AM

"his defence for free speech for fascist Blueshirt."
That is a lie Jim, and it is the second time you have told it.
Why do you feel the need?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:33 AM

Jon,
"What I found particularly hard was you persisting with "Don I do now " believe.."

Remember Jon, I did not persist with any explanation for the over-representation.
That one was not mine and there was no other.
My case was just the over-representation.

You yourself acknowledged that the over-representation was a fact.
Remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:38 AM

Richard ~ If I found this tendency in Keith's posts that you find, then I should not tend to defend their content.

Jim, I do to a great extent see where you are coming from, but still find your tendency [to adopt Richard's locution] is towards shooting the messenger.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:39 AM

Keith, I remember starting in another thread where I stated that I did not believe you were a racist, trying to discuss your (which isn't your...) theory in the Muslim thread and finding myself exasperated before changing my opinion regarding you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:42 AM

CAMERON URGED TO DELAY DALE FARM'S MONDAY EVICTIONS
Haven't got round to The Times yet, but this from The Irish Times this morning.
It seems that the United Nations' committee on Human Rights isn't the only group to be disturbeb by Britain's behaviour in this matter

MARK HENNESSY
London Editor
MEMBERS OF the House of Commons and the House of Lords have appealed to the prime minister, David Cameron, and Basildon Borough Council to postpone Mon-, day's eviction of several hundred Irish Travellers from a campsite outside the Essex town.
In a letter sent last night, the chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers said a postponement would allow for "the bro¬kerage of a solution which we believe is achievable".
The evictions are due to begin at 8am, though eight of the 80 families believed to live on the illegal section of the Dale Farm site have already left in the last two days, taking their caravans and mobile
homes with them.
Urging a last-minute reprieve, the chairman of the all-party , group, Liberal Democrat MP Andrew George, said the crisis is "of national significance in Britain" and not just a local matter. A solution can be found that would restore the part of Dale Farm illegally developed on greenbelt land, offer a temporary site elsewhere for those who have to move and offer time for the Travellers "to secure alternative and culturally appropriate accommodation", he said.
"If it is successful, as we believe it would be, it would save public money, allow the illegally occupied portion of the site to be restored [to its original condition] and be more humane to those Traveller families who are now on the cusp of eviction." Such a compromise would protect up to £18 million of "scarce public funds" put aside by the Home Office, Essex Constabulary and Basildon council, who have already laid a temporary road across a field and erected fencing.
It would be "more beneficial" for the settled community who may "otherwise have their lives considerably disrupted if homeless Travellers are given little alternative than to set up unauthorised encampments and sites in the area". It would also "be signifi-cantly more humane for the Dale Farm residents, especially those who are vulnerable and who are currently living in extreme anxiety, which is contributing to worsening health and other problems", said Mr George.
The council is setting up a holding area where mobile homes will be kept, but all of the Travellers at Dale Farm must leave during the evacuation. A number of elderly and ailing Travellers living on the illegal section have been given permission, it is understood, by those who own plots in the mostly unoccupied legal part, to occupy their sites temporarily.
In a letter to council chairman Concillor Tony Ball, the Westminster parliamentary group acknowledged he had worked tirelessly for "an effective and lasting solution" for years. However, a last-minute compromise is unlikely. Last night Mr Ball wrote to the Travellers, urging them not to resist the bailiffs when they arrive.

"That is a lie Jim, and it is the second time you have told it."
Are you really claiming that you didn't defend Bluesman's racist diatribe on the basis of his right to speak his mind on Mudcat?
It was virtually our first head-to-head on this subject - I think your accusation was that I subsituted name-calling for argument.
Are you intending to drag this into "You said - no I didn't" game, as in the past - and then claiming that it wasn't you who said it but an "expert"?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:55 AM

M the GM - as a card carrying pedant you should know better. Of course you should not defend such a tendency. The issue is whether you would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 06:05 AM

here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037998/Polygamy-welfare-benefits-insidious-silence.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 06:09 AM

sORRY - CROSS-POSTED
"shooting the messenger."
Mike,
Please do not adopt Keith's "I only said it because an "expert" told me it was true" - you're better than that.
Keith's "cultural flaw" allegations were based on an unfounded opinion, and even then, exaggerated into something out of all proportion to even that single dredged-up quot - which he dragged on through a stomach-heavingly long and sickening thread - evidence enough for me to his devotian to his "little weakness".
Keith presented the statement as "his belief", then spent virtually the rest of the thread distancing himself from it by claiming it to have been said by "others" (note the plural) - this was blatanty untrue - it was a distortion of a single unsubstantiated opinion by an obsucre (and proven off-the-wall) politician.
The same goes for his "massive" and "massive-massive over-representation". which again, was all his own work - nobody anywhere went to those lengths to denigrate a whole ethnic community
You accuse me of obsession where Keith is concerned - I don't know him - my antipathy to him is based on his ideas, and the lenghts (occasionally openly dishonest) to which he preapared to go to put them across.
Yes - I am possibly somewhat over-occupied with racism - if I am thirty years of encountering it in London, almost on a working-daily basis has made me so.
I make no apologies for that.
My attitude to racism towards Travellers speaks for itself - these "Pikey scum" include not only some of those from whom I got my love of song, but also were personal friends who I consider myself lucky to have known.
Both Keith and I appear to agree that it is an important subject - unfortunately we seem to be on the opposite sides of the fence on the matter.
Can't help but notice he has yet to explain his "Traveller over-representation in slavery remark - probably looking for an "expert" to pin it on as we speak.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 06:10 AM

And just to answer that one, Kieth,

I think I said I was prepared to accept there was an over representation in certain cities in the North of England.

This does not mean (not can be twisted by you) that I have at any point believed that such a finding could be safely extrapolated to produce your (but not yours) "Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency".

My argument was that it can not be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 06:14 AM

"Are you really claiming that you didn't defend Bluesman's racist diatribe on the basis of his right to speak his mind on Mudcat?"

Yes, I am.
Produce or retract please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 06:18 AM

Jon, the post to Don was about someone else's explanation for the over-rep.
I accepted it but never put it up as my own opinion.

I did have an opinion about the over-rep.
We agree on it.
I did not and do not care what its explanation is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM

"We can express any view we like, but must not pass judgement on each other. I intend to keep to Max's rule."
"The rule is that members can say what they like on any issue, but not pass judgement on each other."

In other words - anybody can give forth with a racist diatribe (and there can be no argument to the fact that this is exactly what Bluesman's contributions are), yet we mustn't describe it as such.
This is hiding behind a non-existant rule-book to allow a racist to use this forum as a platform
I realise there are pracical problems in preventing Bluesman and his ilk using Mudcat in such a manner, but this does not mean we can't tell it for what it is - you seem to believe that we should sit on our hands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 07:42 AM

That comes from an old closed thread and dates from before my first post on this thread.

"Are you really claiming that you didn't defend Bluesman's racist diatribe on the basis of his right to speak his mind on Mudcat?"

Yes, I really am.
Produce or retract please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM

Pedantry, Richard ~~ I should not, thou wouldst not, he would not...

Probably an obsolescent rule, [Fowler had much to say about it] ~~ but you surely will realise the difference between 'I should not' [conditional] & 'I should not [= 'it ill becomes me to do so'.]

Bet I can out-pedant you any time you choose, matey! My pedantry, as a correspondent remarked on another forum, is 'legendary'.

~M~

In fact, I don't think I am actually a pedant in any meaningful sense: I simply aim to operate on the principle that accuracy matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM

Here is the whole post.
I do not "defend Bluesman's racist diatribe"

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:19 AM

Jim,
"And still no comment on the legality of Bluesman's goose-stepping racist diatribes - or doesn't your insistence that the law be upheld cover racism?"

I love being a member of Mudcat.
The nice guy who provides it for us asks little of us in return.
We can express any view we like, but must not pass judgement on each other.
I intend to keep to Max's rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:11 AM

Also from me (this thread.)
I do not "defend Bluesman's racist diatribe"
You lie.

"Jim, I am with you in deploring the use of pejorative names for this or other minorities.
Bluesman, your abusive language makes decent people unwilling to offer their views.

I again deplore Bluesman's abusive language

Jim, Bluesman's nastiness aside, this is a serious issue that members will naturally want to discuss.

Keep my name out of your posts Bluesman.
We have nothing in common."


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM

"Here is the whole post."
Which makes not the slightest difference whatever to what I have said - you are defending the right of a racist to use this forum as a platform for racism - and it makes no odds whatever that the thread was closed - the racist vomit was the very reason it was closed.
I can't help but notice that you have put up a strong opposition to those who have complained of the tone of this thread and have demanded that the posters "rights to free speech" be curtailed - see "Please close this toxic thread" - what have you got against those of us who object to racism.
"Retract or apologise" my arse - you have just confirmed your defence of racist ranters.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:33 AM

I did not and do not "defend Bluesman's racist diatribe"
It was a lie to say I did.

The rules of Mudcat and the rights of Guests are nothing to do with me.
I used to advocate members only below the line.
I now leave it to those good souls who run things for us, but

I did not and do not "defend Bluesman's racist diatribe"
It was a lie to say I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:36 AM

In truth Jim, you never hear anyone say - oh a gypsy camp has set up locally - that will make a refreshing change to the cultural mix round here. I wonder whether we'll be regaled with the folksongs of John Reilly or the guitar of Django Rheinhardt?

People's comments tend to be more in line with the stuff on this thread. No doubt unfair to the broad mass of travellers, but cussing at folk and calling them racist isn't going to change perceptions, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery still active-
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

'"Are you really claiming that you didn't defend Bluesman's racist diatribe on the basis of his right to speak his mind on Mudcat?"'

Gentlemen, 'his right to speak his mind': WHAT mind. He's pulling your strings and y'all are dancing to the tune. Turd--that's my reference for this so-called Bluesman--is a puppet master. He's a very sick individual involved with other very sick individuals. Within a short time relatively speaking, you guys have forgot about Turd and the Travellers; now, it's about YOU. He said--NO, HE said--NO, HE SAID--AHHHHHHHHHH!

For krissake, get your collective heads OUT of yer arses and ignore the sonuvabitch. If Turd spews racist crap on the thread, well, he spews racist crap on the thread. Makes him look like the trash he is. But when w'all get Hoovered into it, basically, we look like idiots, to.

Fossil is jumping up and down in the BS section stating that this is a music site and demanding to be Mudcat's editor-in-chief, but you guys are all right--some divinely appointed right I suppose--and Turd is having a good chuckle.

TRY this: don't post to this thread again. Turd will have to post even if only to get the last word. Then figure he'll be the naked guy at the party, all by himself on the thread talking all on his lonesome. Now an then you could come back and read what Turd writes and scratch yer heads at the guy's ability to think anyone really cares about what he says. Turd has played this like a fine fiddle. Time to close the door on him. Click.

Eventually he'll go back to his dancing and his friends. imo.


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Mudcat time: 24 May 6:39 PM EDT

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