BS: The Bailout

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM

This money should tide the ruling class over a democratic regime while at the same time the next administation will be economicly hog tied .

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

CBS News:

Sep 27, 2008

"The draft bill includes a left-wing giveaway that would force taxpayers to bankroll a slush fund for a discredited ally of the Democratic Party," reads one leadership alert. "At issue is ACORN, an organization fraught with controversy for, among other scandals, its fraudulent voter registration activities on behalf of Democratic candidates. Rather than returning any profits made in the long-term from the economic rescue package, Democrats want to first reward their radical allies at ACORN for their (often illegal) help in getting Democrats elected to office."

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

2001

April: The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is "a potential problem," because "financial trouble of a large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting Federally insured entities and economic activity."

2002

May: The President calls for the disclosure and corporate governance principles contained in his 10-point plan for corporate responsibility to apply to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

2003

September: Treasury Secretary John Snow testifies before the House Financial Services Committee to recommend that Congress enact "legislation to create a new Federal agency to regulate and supervise the financial activities of our housing-related government sponsored enterprises" and set prudent and appropriate minimum capital adequacy requirements.

November: Council of the Economic Advisers (CEA) Chairman Greg Mankiw explains that any "legislation to reform GSE regulation should empower the new regulator with sufficient strength and credibility to reduce systemic risk." To reduce the potential for systemic instability, the regulator would have "broad authority to set both risk-based and minimum capital standards" and "receivership powers necessary to wind down the affairs of a troubled GSE."

2004

February: The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital, and called for creation of a new, world-class regulator: "The Administration has determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and therefore…should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator."

February: CEA Chairman Mankiw cautions Congress to "not take [the financial market's] strength for granted." Again, the call from the Administration was to reduce this risk by "ensuring that the housing GSEs are overseen by an effective regulator."

June: Deputy Secretary of Treasury Samuel Bodman spotlights the risk posed by the GSEs and called for reform, saying "We do not have a world-class system of supervision of the housing government sponsored enterprises (GSEs), even though the importance of the housing financial system that the GSEs serve demands the best in supervision to ensure the long-term vitality of that system. Therefore, the Administration has called for a new, first class, regulatory supervisor for the three housing GSEs: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banking System."

2005

April: Treasury Secretary John Snow repeats his call for GSE reform, saying "Events that have transpired since I testified before this Committee in 2003 reinforce concerns over the systemic risks posed by the GSEs and further highlight the need for real GSE reform to ensure that our housing finance system remains a strong and vibrant source of funding for expanding homeownership opportunities in America… Half-measures will only exacerbate the risks to our financial system."

2007

August: President Bush emphatically calls on Congress to pass a reform package for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying "first things first when it comes to those two institutions. Congress needs to get them reformed, get them streamlined, get them focused, and then I will consider other options."

December: President Bush again warns Congress of the need to pass legislation reforming GSEs, saying "These institutions provide liquidity in the mortgage market that benefits millions of homeowners, and it is vital they operate safely and operate soundly. So I've called on Congress to pass legislation that strengthens independent regulation of the GSEs – and ensures they focus on their important housing mission. The GSE reform bill passed by the House earlier this year is a good start. But the Senate has not acted. And the United States Senate needs to pass this legislation soon."

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

US Congress passes 25 bln loan guarantees to automakers

5 hours ago

DETROIT, Michigan (AFP) — The US Senate Saturday approved 25 billion dollars in loan guarantees for the financially strapped US auto industry, intended to spark a wave of automotive innovation.

The loan guarantees were included in a continuing resolution that included funding for the US government and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

WASHINGTON — The chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, a longtime proponent of deregulation, acknowledged on Friday that failures in a voluntary supervision program for Wall Street's largest investment banks had contributed to the global financial crisis, and he abruptly shut the program down.

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Christopher Cox, the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission, testifying before the Senate banking panel on Tuesday.
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The S.E.C.'s oversight responsibilities will largely shift to the Federal Reserve, though the commission will continue to oversee the brokerage units of investment banks.

Also Friday, the S.E.C.'s inspector general released a report strongly criticizing the agency's performance in monitoring Bear Stearns before it collapsed in March. Christopher Cox, the commission chairman, said he agreed that the oversight program was "fundamentally flawed from the beginning."

"The last six months have made it abundantly clear that voluntary regulation does not work," he said in a statement. The program "was fundamentally flawed from the beginning, because investment banks could opt in or out of supervision voluntarily. The fact that investment bank holding companies could withdraw from this voluntary supervision at their discretion diminished the perceived mandate" of the program, and "weakened its effectiveness," he added.

Mr. Cox and other regulators, including Ben S. Bernanke, the Federal Reserve chairman, and Henry M. Paulson Jr., the Treasury secretary, have acknowledged general regulatory failures over the last year. Mr. Cox's statement on Friday, however, went beyond that by blaming a specific program for the financial crisis — and then ending it.

On one level, the commission's decision to end the regulatory program was somewhat academic, because the five biggest independent Wall Street firms have all disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

All these posts about the blame phase of this crisis circus need to be seen as desperate partisan attempts to plead not guilty.

SOme of the alibis are more laughable than others.

A Congressman said today that Wall Streets gambling thefts are the fault of Barny Franks.

Ads claim its all Obama's fault.



The voodoo economics that began in earnest during the Reagan administration and even earlier by Nixon have cast a spell on the country that will never be earsed. It will make the history books.

Super capitalism, the ownership society, the out sourcing strategy, the trickle down, the supplu side WHATEVER you want to call it, it is the wholesale legal theft by the wealthy ruling class that has brought poverty and desperate infrastructure to this land.

pointing fingers to the point of doing nothing
has an intersting outcome!

The Dems won't pass the bail out (now redefined as the buy in) unless half the republican house will pass it.

I wondered....

WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS A

STALEMATE

it will leave the high fundctioning moron President to declare an emergency Code Red and TAKE THE MONEY by executive order.

In a state of emergency he could even suspend the election but one precedant at a time is plenty

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:13 PM

Dear Ms. Sawz

What do you think the average political & intellectual age of maturity is for the United States.

I believe it is below 21.

Sarah Palin , with all her accoplishments of rising to a govenorship aside, often sounds like she is 16 years old.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

again...

WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS A

STALEMATE

it will leave the high fundctioning moron President to declare an emergency Code Red and TAKE THE MONEY by executive order.

In a state of emergency he could even suspend the election but one precedant at a time is plenty

Dumping this all back in the President's lap does not help mainstreet or either party...

It would add impetus to throw away both parties and begin anew.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

NYT

.....In 1999, the lawmakers adopted the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which broke down the Depression-era restrictions between investment banks and commercial banks. As part of a political compromise, the law gave the commission the authority to regulate the securities and brokerage operations of the investment banks, but not their holding companies.

In 2002, the European Union threatened to impose its own rules on the foreign subsidiaries of the American investment banks. But there was a loophole: if the American companies were subject to the same kind of oversight as their European counterparts, then they would not be subject to the European rules. The loophole would require the commission to figure out a way to supervise the holding companies of the investment banks.

In 2004, at the urging of the investment banks, the commission adopted a voluntary program. In exchange for the relaxation of capital requirements by the commission, the banks agreed to submit to supervision of their holding companies by the agency.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

Economic Bailout SCAM

Chris Dodd $13,205,556
Barney Frank $2,494,611
Roy Blunt $2,000,000
Jud Greg $1,000,000

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:33 PM

It looks like Chris Dodd is the run-away winner. Is that just because he's been there longer?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:39 PM

Bailout Bill: Full Text Of Plan

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:47 AM

What do those numbers represent, Sawz? Actually?

It's not clear what you are saying here...



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM

"but I'm not too happy with "The Fix"..."

Damn! I hate it when I agree with Bobert!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

The bailout is cut by mre than half.

250 billion is the maximum amount to be given at any time.

Odd Behavior Dept. :
Henry Paulson got down on his knees and pleaded with Congressional leaders.\\\\ He also had an anxiety attack and was in such respiratory distress that some people called for an ambulance that was not used.

The freefall of bank failures will continue and the bail outs will not prevent anything except for a few pigs being fed by the sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

"In the crash of 1929 the Dow Jones industrials ($INDU:Dow Jones Industrial Average   plunged 40% in two months; this time around it has taken a year to fall 22%.

The jobless rate jumped to 25% by 1933; it is little more than 6% today.

The gross domestic product shrank by 25% during the early 1930s; it is up over 3% during the past year.

Consumer prices fell by about 30% from 1929 to 1933; and the last time I looked they were still rising.

Home prices dropped more than 30% during the Depression vs. about 16% today.

Some 40% of all mortgages were delinquent by 1934 compared with 4% today.

In the 1930s, more than 9,000 banks failed compared with fewer than 20 over the past couple of years.

Remember also it was policy errors, not the stock market crash, that caused the Great Depression:
Instead of increasing the money supply, the Federal Reserve of that era reduced it by one-third.
Instead of lowering taxes, Herbert Hoover raised them.
And to channel whatever demand was left into U.S.-made goods, the government enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act to keep out foreign products; this only provoked our trading partners to do the same.

Add to this today's automatic stabilizers such as unemployment insurance and Social Security, the FDIC to insure bank deposits and circuit breakers to keep stocks from falling too quickly, and you can see why this is not a depression in any way shape or form.

While I am at it, I would like to take issue with the almost ubiquitous use of the word "bailout" to describe the government's rescue package.

Folks, this is not a bailout of anyone, not Wall Street, not Main Street, and certainly not the so-called "fat cats." It's an infusion of liquidity, designed to unclog the financial markets. In doing so, it will benefit everyone, business and consumers alike.

Also, the $700 billion bandied about will not be immediately handed over to the Treasury secretary; he will simply have a line of credit, similar to what the typical business might have.
Finally, this package may not even cost $700 billion. For that matter, it may wind up costing nothing. It all depends on the price the government pays for these distressed assets and what it winds up selling them for.

As for whom to blame for this mess, there is plenty to go around. In the words of that great philosopher, Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us." ...

Irwin Kellner, MarketWatch

Subject: DELAYED REACTION
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:35 AM

The toxic fallout from the current financial crisis will start hitting the ground this December and worsen over two years. The stagnationand inflation will cause deep oain for decades. IT will seem even worse fo visionary people who will see what could have been as well as what it has become.

Jobless rates will spike at about 18%
"Prediction is hard especaily when its about the furure"
Yogi Beara.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

THe US is down by 28% today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

I agree Amos. It started as a bailout but the unexpected and very vocal objections from both sides of Congress and the American people forced enough changes to produce a bitter but digestible pill for all to swallow.
Now we watch and see. I found myself reading the bill and looking for loopholes that I might crawl through to get my mortgage paid off. I can't be alone. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

Does it strike anyone how hypocritical it is for Big Business to rail against government interference on the one hand, and then cry for government help when their own greed pushes them into bankruptcy? Hypocrisy on a Biblical scale.
Are we as citizens still going to stand for a huge Reagan Monument in Washington DC?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

I've noticed

All scales today are enormous compared to all biblical scales.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

Well, on a personal level, Mary, I wish you good luck with that.




A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Are you in default on your mortgage, Sinsull?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

EJ I made a 3D plan for the Reagan Memorial as I did for the W memorial. The central fountain is full of gold dust that trickels down out of reach from the public.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

No, EJ. My comment was only slightly facetious. Past experience tells me that half of Wall Street is sitting down with their attorneys today looking for a way around the Golden Parachute paragraph. Just thought I might get in on the plunder.

Yes, the hypocrisy is on a biblical scale. But even worse is the claim from politicians that the financial institutions should be bailed out and then left unencumbered by regulation - let the free market work. HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:32 PM

Those being plundered rarely get to receive a share of the plunder, Sins.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

The golden parachutes are generally contractual obligations undertaken by the companies that hire big-name CEOs. Apparently the only such agreements that can be abrogated have to do with employee's pensions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Looks as if the House has voted against the Bailout by 19 votes, as of last count...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:12 PM

Not that it matters now but the Golden Parachute clause was to prevent any new agreements from being made by any financial institution eligible for funds should they see fit to dump any of their top five executives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Genie
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

Yep. It failed to pass in the House.   
That's the good news, IMO.   (The bill was way too much of a rescue for the fat cats and big business, too little help for the average citizen, and only a short-term band-aid for a system that needs fundamental overhaul.)

The bad news is that it was mostly "conservative Republicans" who killed it.   The "liberals," "populists," and Democrats should have solidly opposed it too, but only a minority did.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Barney Frank: (paraphrased)"By a strange coincidence in numerology, the number of conservatives who were 'personally offended' by the bill and who then put party politics ahead of the country, was exactly equal to the number of votes needed to reverse this result"

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Is it good news that the stock market just took a monumental dive? I dropped someone off at the train station today, and saw an entire row of newspapers with 1929-like headlines. The New York Times financial section had a half page banner as follows: "Wall St. RIP"--I am not sure there is any good news anywhere--

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM

Well, there really isn't much in the way of good news 'cept that something will have to get done and now I'm looking for a "trickle up" package to be put forth that the Dems can get really get behind... It should be noted that about 90 Dems voted no for this bill... The problem with a trickle up bill is that Bush won't sign it unless there is enough dough in it to keep Boss Hog happy...

I'm kinda looking for Obama to put together an alternative plan... McCain would love to but he doesn't understand the economy well enough to sell one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM

And now McCain is accusing Obama of having failed as a leader in pushing the bailout. Which was killed by the Republicans in the House. Which ticket is McCain running on, anyway?,

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

I suppose the good news is that the $ystem has been exposed for what it is.
Also exposed, are the priorities of the politicians.

Does anyone think the public really understand what this will mean?
We still have people on here spouting pro Dem/pro Pub garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

Republican House John Colberson said today that when the Jews go home to have their New Year's party, the House Republicans will be hard at work drafting an alternative bill. As a fiscal conservative I will not burdon my children and grandchildren with the current bail out.

The market lost 1.1 Trillion dollars of value today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

Well YOU understand Don!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

Bobez:

Just to keep the record straight, a hundred Republicans also said no.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM

Yeah, I know, Amos....

Chuck Todd made an interesting observation this evening on the NBC news and that was that the folks who voted for the bailout were folks in safe voting districts and the ones who voted against it were in competitive districts... Really had little do do with party affiliation???

Hmmmmmmmmmm??? Seems folks voted more on the possibility of losing their jobs than any other reason....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

fear of communists

fear of terrorists

.


fear of losing your job.




biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

Well, the public lost 1.2 trillion in the market today- these are individual investors, or individuals invested through mutual funds, pension funds and other savings plans which all depend on the market.
More will be lost tomorrow. People stop buying, manufacturers can't market their products, stores can't sell, and employees are laid off.

For many, that kills sending the kids to college, kicks the stuffing out of retirement savings, or plans to pay off the mortgage, and may throw them on the dole and the food bank.

Recriminations and finger-pointing won't help. Without severe corrective action, the U. S. and others are doomed to a long recession. Forget improved education, universal health care and increased job opportunities.
If the engine won't go, all plans are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:05 PM

Hmmmmmmm, Q???

You can track the decline of the standard of living of the working class with the beginning of trickle down economics so I don't see where another $700B of more failed trickle down economics will do any better than the last 30 years of it...

Insanity = Repeating a behavior expecting different results...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:17 PM

Prosperity & Abundance...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:27 PM

It's obviously not important. If it was, they wouldn't put the whole thing on hold for the sake of the Jewish Holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:30 PM

This may give us all pause for thought!

"Yeah, the locusts sang and they were singing for me
Singing for me, well, singing for me."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:30 PM

Well, there's always trickle-up economics, along with imposing a few traffic rules on the wheeling-and-dealing. Some president back in the 1930s seemed to do pretty well with that approach.

Lotsa people bad-mouth him now, and they sure don't want to talk about him and how he did it, but I figure he couldn't have been that bad, because the voters kept re-electing him. The only four term president.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:44 PM

For the banks are all broken they say
And the merchants are all up a tree
When the big-wigs are brought
To the Bankruptcy Court
What hope for a squatter like me.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

Tricke-Down Nonsense!

As these comments by Sowell show, there is no such critter.
Trickle down ignorance

But ignoring the economics 101 bullshit, the object of the bill was to correct an economic crisis. The object is to treat the illness, not kill the patient by inaction and attempt to raise him from the dead at some future date.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

>It's obviously not important. If it was, they wouldn't put the whole thing on hold for the sake of the Jewish Holidays. <

No shit, eh Rig? WTF is that??

Sorry, folks - China has just invaded Japan, but we will come back and talk about it after Ramadan and Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

There has to be an upside. There is always an upside, maybe not.
hmmm
The ruling class got an upside today. 5 more bank failures will help concentrate banking family wealth.

With a 50% loss of spendable money by mddile class families they will not be sending their upstart children to college who might someday challenge the ruling class.


Perhaps we can get the House Republicans to accept a new deal by using the Howie Mandel Deal or no Deal format and guess which briefcase has the $700 billion dollars.