BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???

Subject: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

Well, well, well...

Much as I hate to see her go, go she must... But when, that is the question...

Okay, I figure that it will occur on a Saturday or Sunday when it won't screw up and weekday news cycle so...

Saturday, October 11th is my choice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

Bobe:

You honestly think they'll boot he rout the side door?

"Spend time with my family" kinda deal?

It would be an unrecoverable black eye for McCain.

I give it a fifty-fity chance at best.

Actually she's become a bit of a clown figure which maybe is for the better.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:46 PM

Well, Amos... I don't think they will give her the boot... I think she will quit...'Er at least that will be the story...

I think the debate expose her in a way that there will be no other choice...

Oh, sure... The Repubs will defend her and say that mean ol' Joe Biden roughed her up but, hey, with a 73 year old man with cancer as a possible president the voters aren't gonna think that Ms Sarah is ready to run this country...

So, I'm stickin' with the 11th...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

Palin may be blown away in the Biden debate but I wouldn't count on it. She could lose on debating points but still win on points that have to do with identifying with the masses of marginal voters who are clueless with regard to important economic and international issues.

I would set the date at November 4th.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

After she's elected, there will be no reason to boot her.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:52 PM

When you wish upon a star......

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:57 PM

Charlie's got the best date. But in case it is a close race, I'll take the very early moring of Nov. 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM

I think earlier, Bobert. Oct. 3, 4 tops. They need the weekend to get Romney or someone of his ilk into place for the Sunday news shows and then hit the ground running on Monday. It's like they'll start over with a month for a whole campaign.

Palin is such a weak candidate--I think if one single event did her in, it was the Tina Fey knock-off on SNL.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:54 PM

Not likely that she'll be booted until she and McCain lose the election. Among many other reasons, which I've gone into more than once, another problem is that there may be more voters than we think who are like our own poster of 9:24 PM--totally clueless about issues, stuffed full of assorted prejudices, and oblivious to the harm the McCain/ Palin ticket would cause the US. Of course most of them probably don't have quite the degree of hypocrisy of our friend of 9:24, who claims to be strongly against organized religion, yet supports the ticket of the man who states the US was created a Christian nation, and his dear Sarah, who looks forward to the "end times".

And if our friend of 9:24 does not support the McCain/Palin ticket, let's have a clear statement saying this.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:16 AM

There may also be a large contingent unnown to the pollsters because they live on cellphones, and are 20-something, and will turn out like a horde of locusts to keep McCain out of the White House.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM

Sounds to me like many people here (Rig included) are predicting pretty much what they would like to see happen. Nothing unusual there!!! Ha! ;-) Are you all really so sure that your own personal wishes will become reality if you repeat them often enough or are you just whistling as you walk by the graveyard?

That's what politicians always do too, when asked by the press to predict the future...they predict exactly what they would most like to see happen............except, of course, when they are merely scaremongering about various supposed dire threats in order to scare people into voting for them. They radiate certainty. Is it just an act or are they lost in the radiating glory of their own omnipotence?

You know, something won't happen just because you SAY it will. None of you are God yet. At least, I don't think so.... ;-D

If you are, then we're all in deep trouble, regardless of what happens with Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest- John
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:01 AM

You want my opinion? Probably not, but...

I think you guys are just building an audience for a hotshot political hired-gun from Alaska. She hurt Obama some in her last televised speech (after you guys and the press said she wasn't ready and got 38 million people to listen to her take digs at Obama).

I don't know if she is likely to do that in a debate with Biden, but I wouldn't go around building her audience for her (and lowering expectations so she ends up looking good after a mediocre performance).

She's too good to trifle with.

Take her seriously, run on the issues and watch out for overconfidance in a campaign that is still pretty hotly contested.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:26 AM

Oh yes, take her very seriously.....

I heard all this stuff about Margaret Thatcher. She was just going to be a stop gap, until the tories got Heath recalled in to sort things out. Hesseltine was the true spirit of the party. Portillo was 'the prince across the water'.

Needless to say, she saw them all off.

She reminds me of Thatcher. Mad enough to actually do what every right-wing think tank can hardly bring themselves to articulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

Reading this discussion led me to this video on YouTube where James Carville debates Rep. Michelle Bachman (R-Minn).

I'm not sure whether the video or the discussion on that site is funnier.

(Now, I saw Bachman on C-Span last night commenting on the bailout, and she seemed quite well-spoken and cojerent, so I looked her up. What a difference when the subject changes!)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

I hope she stays in, because she is so much more polarizing than even Joe Biden, for me her presence gives me a real good barometer for seeing what others around me think. Then I hope she and McAngermanagementissues lose. Bigtime.

Geeze, is she the stalking horse for his temper? Does he think he'll seem calm, mild, statesmanlike while she plays Bad Girl?

But yeah, a bailout would help McYouknowwho lose, too, so....

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

The GOP insiders are pretty obviously becoming ever more embarassed by and disenchanted with their new glamour girl, but having her step aside might well be even more embarrassing, and devastating to their chances.

For a while earlier this year, I was seriously afraid that Obama might get killed by some nutcase ~ so afraid that I wouldn't say anything out loud about it.

For whatever reason, my fears on that score have been put to rest. Now I'm afraid that Palin might be a more likely candidate for assassination, or some kind of unexplained sudden death. The sympathy factor would give the new McCain/Whoever ticket a substantial "bounce," and, if timed correctly very shortly before the election, could be decisive.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM

Sept 3 I predicted her bailout:
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2429731

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

They are screwed either way. I think McCain is stubborn enough, he'll keep her, regardless. Remember? He likes 'em younger and prettier. If he lets them get rid of her, the evangelical Christian base will be lost and the women who care about her will be angry, too. If he keeps her, he is just totally gonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

Don't sell her short. She may become a "folk hero". Just like Eric Rudolph.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Don't cry for me, all you voters!
Remember, I never joined you!
I was a promise,
I'm just a promise
I don't deliver.

Don't cry for me, all you voters!
Remember, I'm here for glamor!
Not understanding,
Just for glad-handing.
I don't deliver.

....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Sarah will quit the race for VP the instant she's elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM

Oh, I DO love tautologies!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

The water will feel wet when it hits your face.

Rig will be right as soon as he's not wrong.

I will stop posting to Mudcat when my fingers no longer hit the keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Some helpful footnotes:
Eric Rudolph - serial killer who (The short version)justified his murder spree as punishment for legalizing abortion.

Tautology - a statement of a proposition which covers all values "A or not -A"; a redundancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

I was tempted to say something about how surprised I was that Bobert thinks that Sarah Palin can come up with a bailout, when Congress can't...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

I think she continues to do exactly what she was brought on the ticket to do. The focus continues to be on her. She says something about how her < two years as Governor trumps Obama being a community organizer and the die hard Hillary supporters will flock to support. She'll make a comment about how she stopped the bridge to nowhere or how she's a global expert because somewhere in Alaska someone with incredibly good eyesight can see Russia and a bunch of undecideds will believe her and add to their numbers. In my opinion this was never about picking someone who could do the job of vice-president, it was picking someone to do the job of running-mate.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:42 PM

lol, Joe...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM

A good observation, Frank.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:27 PM

And, of course, the Hillary voters are the voters McCain needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:28 PM

Governor of Alaska is tantamount to being county commissioner in a largish county in Texas. Or many other populous states. Probably without the diversity of issues to deal with.

It's easy to see when it is reduced to numbers.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:58 PM

Frank, she's gone so far beyond those points, in stupidity, I don't think the majority of voters will be hoodwinked by her at all. Her own party majors are calling for her ouster. She may get a narrow margin of the far right who feels sorry for her and/or identifies with her, but nowhere near a majority of any one segment.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:47 PM

"...the moment she's elected". As I thought, no clear statement opposing McCain, who has declared the US was founded as a Christian nation, and his trusty sidekick Sarah, who looks forward to the "end times"--and may get a chance to move the timetable up.

Classic hypocrisy on the part of that poster, who claims to be against organized religion.

Well, we know now how seriously to take anything he says on that topic from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:24 AM

That duck won't quack, Ron. ;-)

You know as well as I do that Rig is not just against organized religion...he's obsessively against it. He is pathologically against it. He's loony on the subject.

He was a Hillary Clinton backer, okay? He can't stand Obama, because he wanted Hillary to win. He thinks that the Democrats have screwed up so badly by picking Obama that he would probably be against Obama now no matter who else was in the race...and that has nothing to do with his hatred of religion nor does his favoring McCain have anything to do with him being hypocritical about hating religion.

Obama is officially religious. So are McCain and Palin. Hell, EVERY candidate who gets to run for president or VP in the USA is officially religious...they wouldn't dare NOT to be. And Rig is therefore against the religiosity of ALL of them...but other than that, he still has to decide whether or not to vote for Obama on a wider basis than merely the religion question (Obama also being openly religious).

Your endless attempts to embarass Rig by bringing up what you misinterpret as a conflict of interest on his part re religion are as futile as pissing on a forest fire, and about as silly.

Really, can't you come up with something else more substantial to argue with him about? Something that is actually relevant? Rig doesn't even bother acknowledging these silly personal attacks you make on him about his religious views pro or con, so they clearly aren't working...if he was bothered, he'd respond.

I've got an idea...why don't you just go "Nyahh! Nyahh! Nyahh!" repleatedly and stick your tongue way out at him, put your thumbs in your ears, and wiggle your fingers every time he attacks Obama. Maybe that will shut him up. And maybe not.

Let me explain it simply: IF Rig's ONLY interest in a candidate was that candidate's degree of Christian thinking...THEN he might be opposed to McCain and Palin.

Evidently (and not surprisingly) there are OTHER matters that also concern him about the candidates in addition to whether or not they are religious (which they all bloody well are)...and those OTHER matters are what are causing him not to support Obama.

***

I think he's loopy, by the way....and I think you are too. But in a different way. He's obsessed with hating religion, you're obsessed with engaging in petty little personal putdowns of people you disagree with about politics.

Hillary is, I would say, less overtly religious than Obama or McCain or Palin. But Hillary isn't in the race anymore. If she was, Rig would be supporting her, and you would not be nattering on and on and on about him being a hypocrite about his anti-religious views, would you?

No, you'd have to find some other petty little pointless matter to natter on and on and on about....

"Well, we know now how seriously to take anything you say on that topic from now on." (if I may quote you from above...)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:43 AM

I think that Sarah Palin has received more publicity on Mudcat than anyone in the history of the site.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:46 AM

In short, who gives a fuck about Sarah Palin? She's NOT going to be elected. Nor is her running mate, John McCain. Capiche? LET IT GO!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

You can teach her about the Sipreme Court but you can't fix stupid.
However stupid voters feel glad t have one of their own on the ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

After she's elected, there will be no reason to boot her.

Actually, in the event she does get elected, there will be about six billion very good reasons to boot her. If that old man croaks and she gets to play at being President it will be to the detriment of every person on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

"I think that Sarah Palin has received more publicity on Mudcat than anyone in the history of the site."


                   And maybe that's the attraction of Sarah Palin. The mainstream press has ridiculed her to the point that about all she has to do to win the debate with Biden is to show up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:31 AM

Some observations on the news last night:
Palin has been presented by her keepers as "being picked on" (pregnant daughter, Troopergate, Russian gaff) to such an extent that any criticism or attack made by Biden will be perceived as petty and mean rather than as a valid attempt to show an alternative view.

The funny part of it is, no one other than the tabloid press and her own party are guilty of bringing this stuff up. The comment was made that this is "a brilliant strategy".

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

"He's [Rig] loony on the subject..."


             I beg your pardon:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Sarah is smart enough to play at rope-a-dope, but it is more liekly to be genuine dope on the ropes; Biden needs to be an astringent, reserved, gentleman about it, quick and articulate and knoweldgeable and perhaps avuncular.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Biden should speak to the viewers, forget she is in the room.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM

She is being tutored how to debate outside under the trees by a creek at one of McCain's homes with two little lecterns.
Mostly she will throw some attack zingers at Biden to the point that Biden will look silly just ignoring them or refuting them. Believe it or not, this works for the person who virtually becomes a parody of themselves by relentlessly spewing outright lies and calls the other debater names. The defensive stance against this is percieved as a no win situation when ignored or refuted, at least to a shallow and ill informed audience

Sarah can deflect real questions well and give an unrelated stock asnwer in return.

Gwen Ivall is the moderator and has just suffered a [ainful broken ankle today.
If Gwen is medicated there will be some interesting moments for sure.
Gwen is understated, intelligent and demure most of the time so it is hard to imagine this moderator being insistent upon anything, which will give both people all the rope they need to Biden their time and dig a hole with a Palin shovel.

Hey I made a funny....

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

"Biden needs to be... avuncular."


                Are we sure Biden knows how to be that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM

I guess you dont know joe

He'll just keep Biden his time while sarah digs a hole with a Palin shovel

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: curmudgeon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:19 AM

Take a look at this   opinion piece by a very conservative columnist.

BTW, the readers comments are not a true reflection of New Hampshire, but rather are the rants of the reactionaries who are regular readers of this right wing rag - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM

The entire process by which VP candidates are chosen is deeply flawed. Basically, we get to elect our President, but have our Vice President foisted upon us by party bigshots.

I personally believe the candidate for Vice President should be chosen from among those who've at least expressed an interest in the job by participating in the primary/caucus process. Pulling a rabbit out of the hat at the nominating convention is NOT the way to do it. Just like when a real magician pulls a real rabbit from a hat, most people will eventually realize they've been had. Unfortunately, that realization may not come until after they've elected the rabbit.

If Sarah Palin had actively sought her party's nomination, how many delegates do you think she would have won? I think pretty close to none. Most of the people who are so gah-gah over her now would never have considered voting for her in a primary contest when faced with a slate of several much more qualified candidates.

Of course, there's always the possiblity that if McCain/Palin wins, she'll be axed after she's performed her function. Those same corruption charges the Republicans are so vigorously sweeping under the carpet right now could well be swept back out and used to get rid of her later.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

i win?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

She makes Hillary look so warm and fuzzy.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

The VP debate is over. Now we can start talking about the Joe Biden Bailout Date Contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Why would that be, Rigs???

Roller Derby Queen didn't exactly, ahhhhhh, win the debate and Joe Biden stayed disciplined and didn't screw up...

Ms. Sarah is still a drag on the ticket as more and more folks are getting seconf thoughts about her as a possible president... Her poll numbers are dropping like a whale's turd... She is like a cartoon character and these are no funny-haha times when a clown is needed anywhere near the White House...

We've had enough clowns... Time for the next president to break the intellegence barrier...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:26 PM

The McCain people can't possibly be very happy with the job she did in the debate. It seems to me, if they were happy with it, they would allow her to speak to the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:57 PM

You've seen what the media does to here. They ought to be arrested for assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:12 PM

They don't treat her any worse than the other candidates. It only looks like they're treating her worse because she can't answer questions that most other people could answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

Rigs are you saying that I could be arrested fro assault for asking what magazines you read to keep informed or asking you what supreme court decisions you disagree with after you have stated the need to replace certain members of the court?

The media has been very easy on Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

The media have given Palin more than a fair go. She's so photogenic, they want her to dance, but she keeps falling over. She's her own worst enemy

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM

According to Taoist and Buddhist teachings I've read, everyone is their own worst enemy.

And you know what? I believe it. Boy, have I seen plenty of evidence of it in this lifetime! Yes indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

Yeah, it's hard to argue with that, but there's a difference between falling down and being tackled.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Yes, it is very unfair to ask what a person reads.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Take the blinders off, Rigs...

Ms. Sarah has gotten powder-puff treatment from everyone, especially from McCain himself who has cocooned her...

If this were a test one would have to say that when it comes to grading Ms. Sarah has been graded on a curve (pun intended)...

But this won't do for a potential president and that is the reason that the McCain/Palin ticket is dropping in the polls... I mean, let's get real here for a second... What if a President Palin had to sit accross the nagotiating table from Putin-head??? That's a purdy scarey thought 'cause I'm way too old to learnt up how to speak Russian...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

If Palin became president very soon there would be many illustrious, seasoned advisers available to pull the strings for her. People like Cheney, Rove...

By the way, I know I have been predicting that Palin will find that her family has to come first, etc, but I'm no longer so sure.

Contrary to what some here think, I think her backers are very pleased with her since the debate, because she was able to spout all the rhetoric and jargon that is so important to them, plus looking good while doing it.

What more could they ask? What more would they ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

Yes Ebbie, I think that they are very pleased with the spouting. Especially since McCain seems incapable of sticking to a particular position for more than a short time.

Going from "the economy is sound" to "one of the worst crises" is his record but by no means the only example. But right now I'm sure that the far right would take Palin over McCain in a heartbeat. At least she follows their script.

On the other hand many many independent or undecided voters are probably going to walk into the booth leaning Republican, look at her name on the ballot and ask themselves. "If her own party and running mate don't even trust her talk to reporters how can I vote to put her that close to being President.

Rig,

The only people who can vote for her ticket with clarity are those who trust God to protect McCain or to lift her up to the position if needed. She is the ultimate faith based selection.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Jack, I would honestly rather see her in charge than McCain, because I think he's mentally unstable. I don't think she is, nor do I think she's stupid. She's a determined and reasonably intelligent and reasonably capable woman who would be pretty good at holding her ground, I think, if under pressure.

Not that I'd vote for her. ;-) I'm just saying that she's better than McCain, that's all.

Anyone who becomes president is surrounded by a whole bunch of high level advisors and power brokers who end up telling a president what he can or cannot do in a given situation. Presidents must bow to reality eventually, just as the rest of us do. Thus, I think the amount of damage they can do when in office tends to be limited by the rest of the control structure around them.

So how good a president Sarah Palin would be would be dependent to quite an extent on who else was positioned around her. Not that I have much confidence in them either.... ;-)

But I don't think she's crazy. I do think that McCain is more than a little crazy or he's just not all there, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:35 PM

"Anyone who becomes president is surrounded by a whole bunch of high level advisors and power brokers who end up telling a president what he can or cannot do in a given situation. Presidents must bow to reality eventually, just as the rest of us do. Thus, I think the amount of damage they can do when in office tends to be limited by the rest of the control structure around them." LH

"If Palin became president very soon there would be many illustrious, seasoned advisers available to pull the strings for her. People like Cheney, Rove..." Ebbie

Aye, there's the rub...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

Palin will not bow out. The election is rigged. McCain will get in.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:43 PM

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking when I said I wouldn't have much confidence in the advisors that would be around her... ;-)

I do think, though, that they have enough sense to not want to get in a war with Russia are China, for example. This doesn't mean they have enough sense not to initiate a war with Iran.

Or should I say, "Eye-Ran"? (to give it the "conservative" mispronunciation)

It seems that to rate with a conservative American working class audience and gain their trust you must say "Eye-Rak", "Eye-Ran", and "nookyular"...as well as dropping your "g"'s off gerunds.

It's like proving that you have calluses and can split wood and hunt moose. Pathetic, really. I blame it on 50 or more years of Hollywood movies about rugged cowboys and frontier heroes. Daft mythology, but it works in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

I don't think that Palin will listen to advisors.

As she has in Alaska, and as Bush has done, she will ask God and do whatever the voices in her head, often the last piece of advice heard, tells her to do.

I think McCain is measured, coherent, sane and balanced compared to her,but only when compared to her, or maybe Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:53 PM

I think it's just the other way around, Jack. Sarah Palin is a young and I would suspect, extremely pragmatic woman...regardless of her religious or church connections. Ambitious and pragmatic types like her usually have excellent survival instincts. Women on average also usually have excellent survival instincts, much moreso than men who are much more inclined to commit reckless and stupid acts when they're in power.

Regarding religion, I bet she talks the good talk about "God"...and then does exactly what's good for business...meaning, good survival tactics for her and her administration.

In McCain's case, I don't think he's capable of thinking beyond fighting wars and preparing for further wars. He doesn't really invoke God, he invokes military action, and just pays a little lip service to God. I get the impression that he lives to wipe out the stain of Vietnam that echoes so large in his memory by leading the nation to a new "victory" over the dreadful enemy "out there somewhere"...a victory that in this case, as in the case of Vietnam, is not possible, because the overall objectives are completely out of touch with reality.

I don't get the impression that Sarah's out of touch with reality. She merely subscribes to a bunch of very common right wing notions that a lot of conservative Americans subscribe to, that's all.

Talking about your love for God is all well and good when you are running for president. They all do it. What worries me is that McCain's god appears to be warfare itself, as carried out by the American armed forces. The man lives to fight. Such men are handy as officers on a battlefield, they are disastrous when put in command of a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:56 PM

McCain has a 25 Year history of often making sense. Palin has a bunch of lies on her resume and a speech she read off a teleprompter.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

"Palin will not bow out. The election is rigged. McCain will get in."


                   Well, that would be the best thing for the country, anyway. But it's rigged anyway it comes out. The average everyday American doesn't have a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

LH, don't fool yourself about Palin. I have met her type and worked against them in human rights campaigns. They are pragmatic up to a point and then their religion takes over. Their ultimate goal is always dictated by their religious beliefs/fervour.

A word, folks, on the pronunciation of Iran and Iraq. Out here, in the West, I know plenty of educated, LIBERAL people who pronounce them the same was as Palin. It's the way we grew up, not ignorant, just a cultural thing, like a lot of old-time New Englanders putting an "r" on the wend of such words as "law." (I was told that was from an English background.) So, as usual, generalisations are not a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:53 AM

"They are pragmatic up to a point and then their religion takes over."


                        The problem is, both parties have these addictions now. Sanity has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

Hey, Kat, I've known a lot of Christian fundamentalists over the years, here and there, and they all talk the talk...but when the brass tacks are down are they ready to die unnecessarily in hopes of experiencing "the Rapture" and being delivered up joyfully to their God?



NO!!! (grin) They turn out to be surprisingly pragmatic, in fact.

It's mostly BS, spouted to impress one's peers, just like most of the BS that is spouted amongst other groups of people.

Sarah Palin's general manner suggests to me that she's a practical-minded ambitious go-getter who would do whatever she thinks will make her a success in the material world. McCain strikes me as a zealot who is obsessed with political and military confrontation.

*****

You said... "as usual, generalisations are not a good idea"

But...but...isn't that a generalisation???? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

I don't think the question is whether or not they are willing to die for the rapture (they don't think they will die in the rapture, anyway, just get risen up). I think the important question is whether or not they are willing to arrange for other people to get killed because of their religious beliefs. If GW Bush is any indication (and I think he is), we can see that some of them are willing to arrange for other people to be killed because of their religious beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:18 PM

Yes, that is worrisome, Carol....but I think that what people are mostly dying for right now are the same old classic issues of empire that people have been dying for for thousands of years. They may say it's about religion, but it's usually about imperial ambitions and the struggle for control of markets, land, and resources...and the control of governments.

Bush has been using religion as a handy propaganda device...as a motivator and a vote-getter...he may even find that it motivates him on a personal basis...but what Bush's administration has really been fighting for is control of oil, markets, and strategic resources. He's been fighting to control various energy-supplying regions of the world on behalf of a bunch of mega-corporations.

That's not a religious issue, it's a financial and imperial issue. Sure, they'll use religion to motivate many of the fighters, but they are not fighting for religious purposes at all...they are fighting for the material things of this world, things which they wish to control and benefit from.

Whoever next occupies the Oval Office, he is going to be concerned with that same imperial agenda....and THAT is what worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:36 AM

How much are you willing to bet that Gov. Palin will either pull out of the race or be dumped by Senator McCain by or on October 11, Bobert? I'm willing to call your hand. How much?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

"I think the important question is whether or not they are willing to arrange for other people to get killed because of their religious beliefs."


                It's funny that somebody would be willing to face these realities and support Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

I'm still a Kucinich supporter, and I am campaigning against McCain. I don't see Obama being in any way about people getting killed for religious reasons. As far as I'm concerned, the jury's still out on whether or not he will help the military industrial complex kill people for money, and for consolidation of their power. I will probably vote for him because I am willing to give him a chance to show me that he will do what's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM

"I think the important question is whether or not they are willing to arrange for other people to get killed because of their religious beliefs."


                It's funny that somebody would be willing to face these realities and support Obama.

Please explain your thinking here, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

I know many, many people who go to church or who say they believe in God. I don't know any who have demonstrated any eagerness to kill people or get other people killed because of their religious beliefs.

Our governments don't kill over religious beliefs, they kill over money, resources, markets, and control of worldly circumstances of one sort or another. They kill in their endless search for temporal power, wealth, and dominion. They kill because they are competitors for those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

Don't agree with all your reasons for governments killing people, LH, but you left an important one out I think. They kill those who would kill the country's citizens. I think that one is the main reason.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Well, LH, I guess you're right that people don't kill for religious beliefs. But religious beliefs allow leaders to herd people into armies and shoot at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

I definitely know people who vote for policies that they believe will help bring about armageddon. Which amounts to voting for policies that will get people killed. I'm related to some of them. They believe that it's God's will for many millions of people to be killed in the Middle East so that Christ can return and they can be spirited up to heaven in the Rapture, or wherever it is that the Raptured people are supposed to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

"I think the important question is whether or not they are willing to arrange for other people to get killed because of their religious beliefs."


                It's funny that somebody would be willing to face these realities and support Obama.


I'm still wondering what you mean by this, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM

I had a double rapture once!

Local lady Doc said "thats the biggest I've ever seen"
When I told the surgeon, he said " I'm afraid Dr ****** has led a very sheltered life!"...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

"..to get killed because of their religious beliefs."   

Nobody should expect that Mr. Hypocrite, the author of that phrase, is ever going to provide any logical basis for his remark.

In fact he's not just Mr. Hypocrite, he's Mr. Confused Hypocrite--a neat trick--he has no idea what he is saying.

After all he's only on Mudcat to provide entertainment value to the rest of us, which is of course a public service.

But as soon as he sits down at his computer, he turns his brain off. And the rest of us will just have to accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:53 PM

Please explain your thinking here, Rig

I think there's a questionable assumptionthere. Does "thinking" actually come into it?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:54 PM

"'It's funny that somebody would be willing to face these realities and support Obama.'"
I'm still wondering what you mean by this, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

Hey Bobert! Wake up! Read my post of October 6. You've got a shot at winning some real money!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

Geez, Carol! Well, okay....but people like that seem to be as rare as hen's teeth hereabouts... ;-) I'm clearly not living in the Bible Belt. Anyway, I still think it has little to do with national policy. National policy is driven by imperial ambitions, as it always has been.


Doug - Wars happen when one nation has something that another nation wants and the other nation is willing to use violence to get it...NOT when citizens are "in danger". Governments don't give a tiddly about their citizens being in danger, but they find it very handy as a rallying cry when they want to start a war.

But once the war starts...THEN, Doug, citizens of both countries are in danger from the moment the war begins until it ends...but AFTER the fighting starts, not before. I know you're thinking in terms of the 911 attack, but 911 was not an act of war. It was a privately arranged criminal act. It was not an act perpetrated by any government or any nation or the armed forces of any nation. It was a criminal act perpetrated by a small, hidden cadre of people operating in secret and NOT representing any government or sovereign nation. That is not an act of war, it's a privately committed criminal act.

It does not and cannot serve as justification for entering into a war with any sovereign nation, since no sovereign nation planned it, wanted it or executed it. All sovereign nations expressed great sympathy for the USA when it happened, (Iran included).

Such an act calls for a criminal investigation, that's what it calls for. It's a police matter, not a military matter.

It has no bearing on a discussion concerning people killed in war, because it was not an act of war. It was a crime.

No country is stupid enough to attack the USA in that fashion, because it invites a massive retaliation...and the USA has massive powers of retaliation. It is only a privately organized group of conspirators who will ever commit such a crime. By doing so, they no doubt hoped to provoke several wars between nations, and they have succeeded in doing so, because the Bush administration wanted such wars anyway. It was convenient to their future desires and plans. So convenient, in fact, that one can't help but wonder exactly who some of the criminals who planned 911 were. (?)

I bet they weren't all sitting in a cave in Afghanistan.

Iraq and Afghanistan have been the primary victims of the wars that resulted from that criminal act. They haven't lost a few thousand people, Doug, they've lost hundreds of thousands of people. THEY are the primary injured parties in this mess, not you. You've just got an economy that is totally screwed now, that's all. Count your blessings, because it could be a whole lot worse. You could have dead people lying in the streets, and a foreign army occupying your country.

That's what they've got, and they were not responsible for 911.

There was no war, Doug, until America decided to pretend that a criminal act was "an act of war" and started a real war. Then there was a war, all right. Now there are 2 wars. You can't really afford to fight even one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

Canada doesn't seem to have too many people like that, but here in the US they're not at all uncommon. Some of them are serving in the Bush administration, and others are supporting the candidacy of John McCain. Sarah Palin (and her pastors) sounds to me a lot like my relatives who believe that sort of thing, and I think she probably believes it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:57 AM

That's IT in a nutshell Hawk.
Pity so many here actually live in a nutshell!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

Sorry KB. I've tried to explain a couple of times, and neither one of my posts managed to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:51 AM

From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

I bet they weren't all sitting in a cave in Afghanistan.

I bet they were sitting in board rooms, on the line to another room, in Washington...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:36 AM

Yeah, that's my opinion too, GfS. I just didn't bother to say it this time, I merely implied it. Pretty nifty highrise demolition and PR job, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:46 AM

From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:36 AM

Yeah, that's my opinion too, GfS. I just didn't bother to say it this time, I merely implied it. Pretty nifty high rise demolition and PR job, eh?

Hey, we always seem to be able to interpret reality clearly. Pretty good for two people thousands of miles apart, who have never met...but are at least sane! Sometimes I just have to sigh, at the kumbaya-ers, with their heads in the sand. I think this understanding, comes from an awareness, wrought by years of watchful objectivity, and some dialed in spiritual conscientious. ....so my prayer for you, is 'Dear Lord and Great Father, keep us safe from the bogus crusaders, and vociferous nincompoops'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

Back to the subject at hand, Ms Palin:

I received an email today linking to an excellent essay in The Guardian (UK), entitled "Flirting Her Way to Victory."

Several days ago, my cousin Dave sent me a link to Maureen Dowd's examination of Palin's grammar and sytax; pretty hilarious. Several of my teachers over the years stressed the truism that, when you think you have an idea, you need to write it out. If you can't express it clearly in words, it was never a valid idea anyway. None of Sarah's teachers at any of those five colleges seem to have taught her that lesson. Here:

"Sarah's Pompom Palaver"

WARNING: Read 'em soon. These are newspaper links already a few days old ~ they won't remain available on the web forever. If you're reading this in 2025 for your history class, sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

Yeah, P-Gator... I think that Mareen Dowd hit it purdy much on the head...

It's a sad commentary when politicans go out of their way to sound and act dumb knowing that they are playin' to an audience that collectively don't have the I.Q. of that of a box of animal crackers...

But that apparently is America.... And that says alot about just how far down the ladder it's prople have slipped...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

I'm trying to imagine how "a team of mavericks" would govern the USA.

Another very scary set of images.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM

They have no interest in governin', John... That's what the lobbiests are for... They just want to be part of the cash grab...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM

"It's a sad commentary when politicans go out of their way to sound and act dumb knowing that they are playin' to an audience that collectively don't have the I.Q. of that of a box of animal crackers..."


                   Speaking of which, did everyone notice that Obama was dropping his "g's" at the end of sentences in the debate last night? I haven't notice people talking like that in Hawaii or Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

Spend a lot of time in Hawaii and Chicago?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM

Some time. I remember getting stuck in O'Hare International for 3 days one time. Of course, there were a whole lot of people there who didn't speak English at all, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM

Mr Hypocrite:

You were going to explain what you meant by "...get killed because of their religious beliefs."

Still patiently waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:01 PM

"Still patiently waiting..."

Yeah, right. (rolling my eyes)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Larry King had a show last night with 3 Republican women. Two called for Palin to resign and one said she is still good for the base.

I too believe she is good for the baseist instincts of the most base.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM

I think it is too late to get her off the ticket even if McCain wants to. Too close to the election to do it gracefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

Now that he has the religious right wing, I bet he wishes he could swap her for Romney.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:47 PM

It's rather apparent that Mr. Hypocrite will not be giving an explanation of his latest smear "... get killed because of their religious beliefs" any time soon.

It must be the hottest seller at Smears R Us".

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:52 PM

It's equally apparent that Mr Snide won't give up his puerile character attacks on another member of this forum...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Alice
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:55 PM

Now that she has been found guilty of an ethics law violation today, she may be booted rather than bail.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:12 PM

Perhaps some members are unaware why the stance of Mr. Hypocrite is in fact perfect hypocrisy.

It's very simple--to anybody who reads--rather than wallow in conspiracy theories.

There is no question that Gov. Palin is the only fundamentalist among the 4 presidential/VP candidates. That should be enough for anybody who alleges a concern with the power of organized religion in the public sphere to strongly oppose the McCain/Palin ticket.

Also, McCain himself has made it clear--in fact clear in his entire career--that he is a strict constructionist and as president would appoint judges who share this attitude. Perhaps a recent Canadian contributor to this thread is unaware that the words "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in the Constitution--only the prohibition against establishing a national church. Therefore, strict constructionists will continue to erode the artificial barrier between religion and the state.

That means anybody who is concerned about maintaining any division between the two should strongly oppose McCain as well as Palin.

And anybody who claims to be concerned about the evils religion allegedly does--especially somebody who's been whining about it for years-- should also firmly oppose that ticket.

If that person does not, that person is a proven hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM

He simply prefers McCain to Obama, Ron, for a variety of reasons that apparently make sense to him, even if they don't to you or me. That is the only basis of his opinion, and that's all there is to it. He's simply for "anyone but Obama", period, and it isn't because of the religious issues and it doesn't hang on the religious issues. It's because he thinks Obama is "an empty suit" and because he thinks America won't elect a Black man to the presidency (or at least is very unlikely to).

But you don't find it convenient to look at the whole picture of what is going on with Rig, as you wish to simply focus on his hatred of religion exclusively as if that were the determinant of his entire political position. It clearly isn't. And, GOSH! Wouldn't it be strange if it was????

But you'd like it to be. ;-) It allows you to call him a nasty name, "Mr hypocrite", and that satisfies the intellectual bloodlust in your waspish temperament, doesn't it?

Therefore, you are engaging in puerile and pointless character attacks in calling him a hypocrite, but what else would I expect from you? I have therefore dubbed you with a similar name of your own. You are:

Mr Snide, the CEO of "Sneers 'R Us"

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:14 PM

Actually, what the First Amendment says about religion is:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

How such a seemingly clear and simple sentence can be the source of so much controversy is, in part, bound up the the ambiguity of the words "respecting" and "establishment". "Respecting" can mean "holding in high regard" or "concerning". "Establishment" can mean the act of establishing, or it can mean a physical building (a church is an "establishment of religion"), or an organization such as a religious denomination (the Episcopal Church is an "establishment of religion").

So, does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" mean that there will be no establishment of an official national religion? Or does it mean that no particular religion will be held in higher regard than any other? Or does it mean that Congress shall keep its hands off of religion entirely? Either of those interpretations is valid, depending upon what exact meanings of "respecting" and "establishment" one adopts.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

Those poor Founding Fathers! They must have thought they'd be dealing with reasonable human beings in the future, not a bunch of damn political lawyers with axes to grind.

What they clearly meant was that the state was not to pass any laws which interfered with people's religious lives and choices, which would be the private business of the people themselves to work out FOR themselves. Congress was not to legislate the conditions of people's religious life and practice.

Sounds like a good idea to me. It guarantees freedom of thought and freedom of religion and freedom of philosophical expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 12:33 AM

Okay, it's small. I wanted to make it more or less "one screen" to fit the Mudcat suggestions of propper cut and paste, but it was difficult to find a place to snip this article. So it's tiny instead. Copy it and paste it into a word processor or follow the link. (You should see the size of my monitor--I could fit two such stories on it, so this is a guess at what is "typical").

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/us/politics/11trooper.html?ref=us

Gov. Sarah Palin abused the powers of her office by pressuring subordinates to try to get her former brother-in-law, a state trooper, fired, an investigation by the Alaska Legislature has concluded. The inquiry found, however, that she was within her right to dismiss her public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, who was the trooper's boss.

A 263-page report released by lawmakers in Alaska on Friday, found that Ms. Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee, had herself exerted pressure to get Trooper Michael Wooten dismissed, as well as allowed her husband and subordinates to press for his firing, as a result of a divorce proceeding between him and Ms. Palin's sister in 2005.

"Such impermissible and repeated contacts," the report states, "create conflicts of interests for subordinate employees who must choose to either please a superior or run the risk of facing that superior's displeasure and the possible consequences of that displeasure." The report concludes that the action was a violation of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act.

What now lies ahead is not fully known at this point. Ms. Palin could be censured by the Legislature, but that is unlikely. Ms. Palin, who was elected governor in 2006, was tapped as Senator John McCain's running mate in late August, about a month after an inquiry was opened into her firing of Mr. Monegan. Her political ascendancy took what was essentially a state personnel matter and elevated it into a national issue, one that has been simmering in the background of an increasingly heated presidential race.

In the report, the independent investigator, Stephen E. Branchflower, a former prosecutor in Anchorage, said that Ms. Palin wrongfully allowed her husband, Todd, to use state resources as part of the effort to have Trooper Wooten dismissed. The report says she knowingly "permitted Todd Palin to use the governor's office and the resources of the governor's office, including access to state employees, to continue to contact subordinate state employees in an effort to find some way to get Trooper Wooten fired." Further, it says, she "knowingly permitted a situation to continue where impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda."

In his inquiry, which began on Aug. 11, Mr. Branchflower interviewed 19 people and received written responses from 10 others. Three years ago, Mr. Wooten and the governor's sister, Molly McCann, were locked in a harsh divorce and child-custody battle that further turned the Palin family against him. The couple divorced in January 2006. As a result of several complaints against Trooper Wooten, he was suspended from the state police force for five days. However, Mr. Branchflower's report found numerous instances in which Ms. Palin, her husband and her subordinates tried to press for harsher punishment, even though Mr. Monegan and others told them they had gone as far as the law and civil service rules would allow.

Ms. Palin has denied that anyone told Mr. Monegan to dismiss Trooper Wooten, or that the commissioner's ouster had anything to do with the trooper, who remains on the force. But Mr. Monegan has said that he believes he lost his job because he would not bend to pressure to dismiss Trooper Wooten. On July 28, the Legislative Council, a bipartisan body of House and Senate members who can convene to make decisions when the Legislature is not in session, approved an independent investigation into whether the governor abused the powers of her office to pursue a personal vendetta.

Mr. Monegan said in an interview Friday night that he felt relieved. "I feel that my beliefs and opinions that Wooten was a significant factor, if not the factor, in my termination have been validated," Mr. Monegan said. He added, "I was resisting the governor from the very beginning on the Wooten matter to protect her from exactly what just happened to her here, being found to have acted inappropriately."

The report was released after Alaska lawmakers emerged from a private session in Anchorage where they spent more than of six hours discussing the ethics report and what portions should be made public. The legislative council ended up voting unanimously to make part of the overall report public.

At a news conference Friday evening, a local McCain-Palin campaign spokeswoman, Meghan Stapleton, said that Mr. Branchflower's abuse of power finding was the result of an "overreach" by the investigator who went beyond "the intent of the original" inquiry. Ms. Stapleton added that the governor "feels absolutely vindicated" because the report concluded that Ms. Palin was acting within her legal authority when she "reassigned" Mr. Monegan. On July 28, he was told by the governor's acting chief of staff that Ms. Palin wanted him to head the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, and that she wanted to take the public safety agency in a new direction.

In an e-mail statement, Ms. Stapleton said the report shows that the investigation was a "partisan led inquiry run by Obama supporters and the Palins were completely justified in their concern regarding Trooper Wooten given his violent and rogue behavior." A pre-emptive report on the investigation by the McCain-Palin campaign, released late on Thursday, said that beginning in October 2007, the governor and members of her administration repeatedly clashed with Mr. Monegan over budgetary issues and the direction of his agency.

After months of "repeatedly ignoring the governor's budget priorities, making public statements that directly challenged the governor's policy agenda and taking numerous unilateral actions in conflict with the governor in support of his own policy agenda, his replacement in July 2008 should have come as no surprise," that report said.

Mr. Branchflower based his finding of abuse of power on Alaska's Executive Branch Ethics Act, which was established to "discourage executive branch employees from acting upon personal interest in the performance of their public responsibilities and to avoid conflicts of interest in the performance of duty," the report says. It says, however, that "Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Walt Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads." It cites the Alaska Constitution, which says "the governor may discharge department heads without cause."

"In light of this constitutional and statutory authority," the report continues, "it is clear that Governor Palin could fire Commissioner Walt Monegan at will, for almost any reason, or no reason at all." The report states that, while there is no doubt that Mr. Monegan's "failure to fire Trooper Wooten was a substantial factor in his own firing, the evidence suggest it was not the sole reason."

Legislative leaders said that in cases like this, a violation of the ethics law would typically be resolved by the state Personnel Board. However, that scenario is complicated by the fact that the panel is already conducting an inquiry of its own. Ms. Palin has pledged to cooperate with that investigation. Even as Ms. Palin drew large crowds and media attention as she campaigned across the United States, the issue was brewing in Alaska, as the inquiry moved forward. But the campaign repeatedly shrugged off the allegations, stating that they were not serious and that she was not guilty of any wrongdoing.

Still, the allegations undermined the campaign's portrayal of Ms. Palin as a "maverick" who has taken on special interests and fought for average residents. Six Republican lawmakers in Alaska had sued to block the investigation, saying it was unfair and partisan. A lower court rejected the suit, and on Thursday, the Alaska Supreme Court batted down an emergency appeal, paving the way for the publication of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

Surely she must now go?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM

This whole Palin/troopergate is another stupid, small distraction from the bigger issues...matter of fact, its really a non issue...and at least considerably smaller than the Acorn stuff!...and even larger, in the small minded world, than any of these. The fact, and most dodged subjects, is the borders, dissolving American sovereignty, nationalizing the banks, and the powers Mr.Bush heaped on the presidency, and the next president inheriting of that very unconstitutional power, given to the executive branch,...not to mention the 'Amero', and the FACT, that the United States has been attacking the middle east, Iraq, and now wanting to do Iran, ..for switching from the dollar, to the Euro, for its trade in oil!...Troopergate???...small things amuse small minds!!!.....or.....Obsession food for morons!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

The whole thing is being ignored by the press, because Tony Rezko is singing like a bird to federal investigators.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:25 AM

Hey, Rig....can you be a little more clearer?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

sorry for the typo....

Is Rezko blowing the whistle on Oblabbo?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

Spot on, GfS. Partisan minds are fixating gleefully on utterly petty minutiae such as TrooperGate, etc....which is kind of incredible in the light of the much larger and more significant national issues which are out there to be concerned about.

But never underestimate the pettiness of partisan minds, always searching for another molehill to rave on about while toiling in the shadows of the mountain of national iniquity that towers above them daily.

It's exactly the same predatory mindset, in my opinion, that fuels local gossip in a small town.

So....we have a country that has illegally invaded and occupied another country (Iraq) which never attacked it...and never even had the means to...a country which is planning to do similarly to yet another country (Iran)...and its citizens are meanwhile obsessing about BS like Troopergate and what Reverend Wright said in some sermon years ago.

In-fucking-credible.

The partisan mind will fixate on ANYTHING which it thinks can do damage to the other party. That's all it cares about...doing damage.

But neither one of those damned parties will address the real issues or even speak them out loud. Goodness no! It's like the 3 monkeys. They remain silent, blind, and mute in the face of the obvious criminality of their shared national policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Well, I'll admit that Obama seems to be blind, but he doesn't seem to be silent or mute--deaf maybe, but not mute.

                      As far as the unauthorized invasion, it was Mexico that invaded the US, and that's the invasion that the political parties won't talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

Perhaps, Rig, they are getting their karmic return for America's violent theft of Calfornia and the Southwest from Mexico, as well as other attacks launched on that nation on a number of occasions by the USA. ;-)

In any case, the Mexican government has not attacked the USA. You cannot call Latin American emmigration an action by the Mexican government against the USA...it's an action on the part of millions of poverty-stricken individuals to find a better life, that's all.

Obama and McCain are both deaf, blind, and mute regarding the real and most vital issues that should be discussed seriously in this election. That's because they are both being good little party candidates and only saying what they are allowed to by the $ySStem that dangles them on strings before a mesmerized public.

Did Hitler ever admit to being a lawless international aggressor? Goodness no! He was merely "defending" the Reich, so he said. I see a similar level of absolute denial of reality and responsibility in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

LH:

Obama, I assure you, is neither blind, deaf, nor mute about key issues. I am not persuaded immigration is one of them though.

If our economy were anywhere near its optimum balance, it would be much less of an issue.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

"...it's an action on the part of millions of poverty-stricken individuals to find a better life, that's all..."


                Actually, it's the action of La Raza, The Nation of Aztlan and others to ethnically cleanse the Southwest United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:59 PM

You think so?

Well, if so, then it's the karmic bounce back on how White Americans ethnically cleansed those same areas back in the 1800's, seems to me.

They took that land by force from Indians and Mexicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Actually, they took it by small pox and diptheria!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM

They took California by military action.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

I suspect your posts are the ravings of a paranoid nutball, there, Rig. Dunno how that happened. Mebbe one of them karmic walk-in things.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

A very good in-depth article on Palin

The Village Voice

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

Well, sniff...

No matter where this train wreck of an election ends uop, I am heartbroken that mah Ms. Sarah just ain't looking too good or soundin' too good these days... This is takin' a toll on her and I fear that if McCain were to drop that the pressures would take her to that big pork barrel in the shy and then Nancy Pelosi would be president... Okay, Nancy is kinda cute a distance but. geeze, I don't think I want her as president!!!

I was kinda likin' the idea of Ms. Sarah 'cause of the entertainment value... I mean, how long do you think that "First Hubby" would last in D.C. before shooting up some folks who made jokes about Ms. Sarah??? I'd give that like 2 days... Now you have the PTA, moose killer in the Oval Office and her hubby in D.C. lockup... And you have "I'm a fun*king redneck" soon-to-be-son-in-law living in the White House with Metallica CD's blastin' out the windows onto Penn. Ave...

I mean, folks, if it gets better than this, I don't know how!!!

So I say tonight, my friends, vote fir McCain and inspite of the messed up things he'll do before he dies in 2 years it will all be worth it... I mean, fu*k it... If we're goin' down then let's go down laughin'... Right???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:19 PM

"They took California by military action."


                      Actually, they really took California by gold rush.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:20 PM

"I suspect your posts are the ravings of a paranoid nutball, there, Rig."


                      I don't think you're looking far enough into them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM

From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

Canada doesn't seem to have too many people like that, but here in the US they're not at all uncommon. Some of them are serving in the Bush administration, and others are supporting the candidacy of John McCain. Sarah Palin (and her pastors)....

...Or even Obama's pastors...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:43 AM

sorry, forgot to post name...again..

From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

Canada doesn't seem to have too many people like that, but here in the US they're not at all uncommon. Some of them are serving in the Bush administration, and others are supporting the candidacy of John McCain. Sarah Palin (and her pastors)....

...Or even Obama's pastors... maybe even his criminal supporters, too....ya' just never know, do you????

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM

No, Obama's former pastor is not an "end times" Christian. And if by "criminal supporters" is meant Tony Rezko, I also tend to doubt that he is an "end times" Christian as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:57 AM

Carol,..you just don't get it...its ok...never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM

No, I get it. I know my positions, unlike the person who is saying I don't get it (and who is making a lot of very large assumptions - and who quite clearly is unfamiliar with my posting history). This person thinks he or she has all of the answers and thinks no-one else does, so I guess they don't think it's worth bothering to actually find out what the positions are of the people who they are accusing of "not getting it". But I think that comes with the territory for people with delusions of grandeur.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 09:15 PM

"This person thinks he or she has all of the answers and thinks no-one else does,"


                     I think that describes everyone on the face of the planet with a political ax to grind.

                     People who have been damaged by affirmative action are probably not going to support Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Not all of us think we know what everyone else is thinking. It takes a special kind of person for that.

Women are also recipients of affirmative action. And for this reason, it's no more possible to know if Palin got where she is because of affirmative action than it is to know if Obama got where he is because of affirmative action.

McCain, of course, is the ultimate beneficiary of affirmative action, but it's the highly connected kind of affirmative action. He would never have gotten where he is today had it not been for his daddy and grand daddy being admirals.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM

Yo, Rigs,

Please explain how folks are "damaged" by affirmative action...

(You know, Boberdz... Billy Bob says that he could have been a doctor rather than workin' at Jerry's Tire Center but that they accepted the Black kid from the other end of town because he was Black...)

No, it wasn't because he was Black but because he, ahhhh, didn't drop outta high school in the 10t5h grade, worked his butt off and did well in college...)

(Well, Boberdz, there were plenty of white kids who did well in college, too...)

And yer point??? Show me one who was qualified who didn't get into a medical school...

(It ain't that... It's that they didn't get into "the" medical school that they wanted to attend, Bobz...)

Hey, it's a tough world out there... JMU gets 25,000 apoplicationms every year from qualified high schoolers and only accepts 25% of them because that ios all they have room for...)

(Well, Boberdz, then they should take the top 25% and turn down the others...)

Oh??? Well, first of all that would wreck havock on their basketbakll team...lol... But really, if you talk with people how have the job og making those selections there are other factors, such as the narrative that accompanies the application and diversity...

(There you go again, Bobz, with that "diversity" argument... Why is that all that important???)

Well, I'll tell ya' why... Colleges are training people to work in the real world and the real world is diverse... So if you are being trained in a diverse setting to work in a diverse world than you are a few steps ahead by the time you graduate and ready to go out into that diverse world...

(I don't believe that, Boberdz...)

Nor do any affirmative action haters... They do not recognize that the world is diverse and therefore see no reason to educate people in a diverse setting...

(Yup, that's us...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:23 AM

If the government is going to step in give something to one person, the chances are pretty good that they'll have to take it away from somebody else. That has created a backlash.
               I shouldn't have mentioned it on this thread, though, I can see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

If the government is going to step in give something to one person, the chances are pretty good that they'll have to take it away from somebody else.

Ya mean kinda like the government- Federal as well as that of the Southern States - stepping in and for 200 years giving a person the right to own another person and treat & sell him/her like livestock? You're right - they sure took something away from Black folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

Pointless!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

Where is the "give" inaffirmative action, Rigs??? The governemnt isn't giving anyone anything but collectively giving us all an opportunity to learn in a diverse setting...

The alternative is what we had prior to Brown v. Board of Education, Topeka, Kansas...

If that is what you are for then I'd sure nuff respect you more for saying it rather than use codified arguments against affirmanative action...

I mean, I stop at this general store in the morning to get my Washington Post and there is a guy in there who, knowing I am working for Obama, makes it a point to say that America ian't ready for no Black president... I respect that alot more than the crap (rationalizations) that others say who feel the same way as this guy for bnot voting for Obama...

I mean, lets be honest here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM

The only point I was trying to make is this: people who have been victims of affirmative action are not likely to vote for Obama. That's all!

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM

I think the whole concept of affirmative action was to redress a wide-spread victimization of bigotry in the culture, no? I Suspect that condition had a much larger collection of victims than and who could claim to be "victimized" by affirmative action itself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:49 AM

She's in it to win it.





"Just who is this BHO guy? Barack...Obama?
Does anyone really know?

We know he set his sights on our White House in the living room of a domestic terrist. With the the help of that domestic terrist who blew up the Pentagon, Barack then took aim at a true hero, John McCain. Are we gonna jus let Barack Hussein Obama shoot off his mouth about change when no one knows what changes to God's plan for America he wants to destroy?
What are we gonna do about it?
Obama is gonna get what he deserves, he's gopnna be stopped on November 4th by your vote for President John McCain.

Barack Obama won't know what hit him! Real American heros like soccer moms and sportsmen who won't surrender their guns will be the ones who will save America from "that one". (lick finger and paint imaginary mark in the air)

Were not gonna let him stop the surge, were not gonna let em give your money away in a free for all bail out to wall street fat cats, were not gonna let em, raise your taxes. Were gonna stop Barack Obama dead in his tracks and get America back on the right track. I know real Americans like you will do the right thing when the time comes.

Ya know weve been as polite as we can... but come November, its up to you to get rid of Obama once and for all and elect a real American Hero John McCain.

Lock and load America, were gonna do right by America once and for all and blast Obama outta this race and elect John McCain to protect and serve the traditional America that you love and worship. (shoot imaginary pistol in the air and blow smoke from the barrel)"

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:54 AM

Yeah, that's the difference we have, Rigs... I don't see "victims" in affirmative action... All I see are winners... No losers... No victims... Just winners...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

Why would people who feel they were victimized by affirmative action be less likely to vote for Obama than for the ticket that includes Palin?

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

Like I said earlier, this is a bad subject for this thread--it deserves a thread of its own.

                     But to answer your question, Carol, I think the pool of victims of reverse-discrimination by government for gender is much smaller than the pool of victims for race and ethnicity.
                     The most recent court cases that I'm aware of have been white women obtaining judgements against governmental agencies for advancing minority women ahead of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

A 'victim' is likely to be one who thinks he/she did not get preferential treatment for themselves. If there are 12 applicants & 4 positions, there has to be some attempt to seek a fair & balanced process. IF the former process favored one group, some of them are OBVIOUSLY gonna be grumpy if the newer process (affirmative action) lowers their chances. This ain't necessarily a bad thing.

It's hard to design an affirmative action program that is absolutely and totally fair, but otherwise on class gets shafted...(just as it is hard to set up unions to be totally fair...but without them, workers often get shafted)

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

Where I see creating diversity, you see "reverse discrimination", Rigs... I don't see affirmative action as discrimination at all... I know that is a square peg and round hole scenerio for you because of years of the right wing pounding out talking points as if there was any substance to them...

Oh, I'll admit that the righties have over the years done a real nice hatchet job on affirmative action just as they have done against the term liberal... But that's about it... Demonizing good stuff with rhetorical slogans does not make good stuff bad... Just demonized...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: TIA
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

I'm interested to know where you get your "recent court cases" Rig. From the EEOC website, all equal pay act cases involve women vs. men (with no mention of race). I know this doesn't exactly address your assertion, so I would really appreciate a citation for any case involving a white woman suing someone because a black woman was unfairly advanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

Bobert,

Ideally, affirmative action would "level the playing field". However, as implemented in the real world, it is neither fair nor effective.

The company I was formerly in had a period when it would not hire or promote any individual- except women and minorities. This lasted about 18 months.

As performed in the real world, one could never know if a person who was under an affirmative action program was qualified- the program was seen as a "These folks aren't good enough to get the job with competition, so we will give some percentage of the jobs to them regardless." I understand that it is * supposed * to be the selection of minorities that are qualified, but the real implementation was to select any minority, regardless of qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

Okay, TIA, here's one, though these are men. The two I recall were women, but I don't have time to look for them now.




SUMMARY:
Former Philadelphia School District Employees Win $2.96 Million
"Reverse" Race Discrimination Verdict

Philadelphia, PA (Dec. 20, 2005) -- After battling for equal rights for almost three years, four white men, all of them former purchasing managers of the School District of Philadelphia, won vindication and a $2.96 million verdict on claims of "reverse" race discrimination and retaliation in a jury verdict entered in federal court today.

          The verdict -- believed to be one of the largest "reverse" discrimination awards ever in Pennsylvania -- was a resounding rejection of claims by the School District and its Chief Procurement Officer Kimberly Sangster, also a defendant, that the terminations were due to business reasons and not race discrimination.
          Three of the four plaintiffs - Robert Johnston of Philadelphia, Jack Zubris of Holland, Pa., and Edward Pilosi of Bala Cynwyd -- also will be reinstated to comparable jobs at the School District, pursuant to an order entered today by Judge Harvey Bartle III of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania.
Phila Schools Index:
* Summary
News: Philly Inquirer 12-20-05
News: Law.Com 12-21-05
Lawyer for Plaintiffs
TABLE: Amount of Award



The fourth plaintiff, Peter Bracchi, formerly of Philadelphia, has moved to Florida and was awarded front pay of $243,000, instead of reinstatement.

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

It sounds as if the company you worked for4 didn't understand affirmative actiion either, Rigs... Sounds like pure discrimination to me...

BTW, there was at least one Supreme Court rukling in the last year or so related to pay discrimination, i.e. same job done by different sexes... The woman in the case was sueing because she learned well after the fact (like a couple years) that her male counterparts had been paid more... The Supremes told her "Tough beans, Baby... You should have known the men were making more and now it's been too long since you left the job for discrimination to be considered..." That was the crux of it even though the management of the company had a policy of not allowing employees to know what each other made...

Sounds like a purdy stinky ruling to me...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sarah Palin Bailout Date Contest???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:21 PM

Bobert - It didn't have anything to do with where I was working. My experiences came from when I was in business in California. I was simply trying to come up with an example that TIA asked for.

               And I agree, the Supreme Court can come up with some gut-wrenching decisions sometimes.