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Playing slip jigs

SPB-Cooperator 25 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM
Bernard 25 Oct 08 - 07:10 AM
Bernard 25 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 25 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM
Bernard 25 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM
Geoff Wallis 25 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM
Geoff Wallis 25 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM
Ross Campbell 28 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM
Sugwash 28 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 08 - 05:40 AM
Bryn Pugh 28 Oct 08 - 06:06 AM
clueless don 28 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM
Phil Cooper 28 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Jim 28 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM
Tootler 28 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
The Sandman 28 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM
greg stephens 28 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Jim 28 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM
van lingle 28 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM
Les in Chorlton 29 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM
alison 30 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM
The Sandman 30 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,doc.tom 30 Oct 08 - 06:55 AM
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Subject: Playing slip jigs
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM

Can anyone advise where the down beat is when playing a slip jig, particularly for mandolin playing

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:10 AM

one - three one - three one -

It's 9/8 time, which is counted as if in waltz time - 'One and a two and a three and a'

It's 'compound time' in that the three beats are each subdivided into three, which in turn are subdivided into two.

The beat is a dotted quarter note, the sub beats are eighth notes (three to a dotted quarter) and the next subdivision is a sixteenth (two to an eighth)...


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

Oh... if you've got access to Fairport's 'Liege and Lief' album, there's a version of Foxhunter's on there which demonstrates it quite well.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

It might be worth remembering that these tunes (the older ones, anyway) are for specific dances. (In Scotland the dances used for 9/8 jigs are different, and the Irish term "slip jig" is not used for them). The tempo, repeat pattern and accentuation will depend on what the dance is.

Fairport were an English band. There are many English 9/8 jigs but they aren't slip jigs.

Find a dance band in action, listen and watch.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM

Be that as it may, Foxhunter's is an Irish Slipjig...


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM

I don't think Bernard's description is very clear, though I know what he means.

Try this - the capital letter indicates the stress in the tune.

X x X/X x X/X x x.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM

I meant also to write that the last note in the final section of each bar (the last 'X') is generally held for the 7th to 9th beats. However, in practice, that's not always the case.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM

The problem with picking slip-jigs on the mandolin comes from the fact that your hand needs to be picking on alternate down and up strokes (to keep the tune going fast enough), while the timing of the tune requires notes to be played in threes. Each bar of the music can be represented by the phrase "diddley, diddley, diddley" (hence the pejorative term for some of this music?) The emphasis is not as represented in the reply above, but more like
D-u-d/U-d-u/D-()-u/ (diddley. diddley. diddley)
D-u-d/U-d-u/D-u-d/
D-u-d/U-d-u/D-()-u/
D-u-d/U-d-u/D-u-d

As was pointed out above, many tunes are phrased so that there's a long or double-value note [D-()] somewhere. This allows you to keep starting each bar on the down-stroke without having to hit two downstrokes together (very tiring) more than occasionally. The trick is to get past the hurdle of emphasising the Up-stroke on the second "diddley" (or wherever it's required). It's just ingrained into your muscle memory that down-strokes provide the emphasis. However, if you tried consistently to play
D-u-d/D-u-d/D-u-d/ etc, you would soon find it a real pain in the arm.

Couldn't find any mandolin examples, but there's this:-
Youtube - Jean Carignan playing Foxhunter's Jig
(By the way, none of the above phrasing would work for Foxhunter's - you're on your own now!)

Ross


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM

I have found it very difficult to pick 9/8tunes by ear. I think this is because I have spent far too much time listening to 6/8 tunes. 9/8 tunes are clearly phrased differently.

Although I can barely play from the dots I found that looking at the dots and learning the tune in phrases of three bars seems easier.

Chiz

L in C


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Sugwash
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

I found listening to Luke Kelly of the Dubliners singing 'The Rocky Road to Dublin' helped me understand how to play slip jigs.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:40 AM

Sugwash,

such a brilliant song and such a brilliant performance. I have been trying to play it for about 40 years, I just find it too tricky. I think part of the problem is Luke phrases it and sings it in his own way and that versions I have tried in dots does not represent the flexibility that Luke brings to the song. Or maybe I'm a bit crap.

I re-discovered The Butterfly, a lovely tune in 9/8, at the Shrewsbury Festival 2007. I learned that quite quickly and it has opened the door to 9/8 for me.

The Great Northern Tune Book has lots of simpler 9/8 tunes as well as lots of others.

Chiz

L in C


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:06 AM

I was learned slip jigs as ' a bar, a half bar, then a bar-and-a-half'.

Or : one-two, one-two, one-two, one-two-three.

Example : 'Byker Hill', Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick. This might or might not be a slip jig, but is in 9/8 time.

I, too, would have suggested 'The Butterfly', but Les beat me to it :-). Try 'The Kid on the Mountain' - it has been recorded by Fin and Eddie Furey, but for me the definitive version is that of Alastair Anderson.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: clueless don
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

In the YouTube video of Jean Carignan playing Foxhunter's Jig, linked by RossCampbell above, Mr. Carignan (sp?) plays the tune in an older style, which is different from how slip jigs are usually played today, particularly for step dancing. The discussions above, where various posters talked about "diddley, diddley, diddley", "X x X/X x X/X x x", and so on, relates to the more contemporary way of playing them.

Don


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

I heard once the phrase that "slip jigs finish before you do." An interesting thought....


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

My favourite slip-jig is The Butterfly. I play it on mandolin using DUD,DUD,DUD.

A slip jig is counted 123,123,123.
As stated above, all 9/8 tunes are not slip jigs. Dave Brubeck recorded The Unsquare Dance on his Time Out album in 9/8. It was counted: 12,12,12,123.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

Unsquare Dance was in 7/8 and the count was 12 12 123


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

I disagree with some of the posters here,when you are playing slip jigs,such as Butterfly,you tap your foot on ist ,fourth,seventh beats.
I would play nine quavers DUD DUD DUD.[1st 4th 7th on down picks
that is how I play jigs in 6/ 8 time,dud dud,that is also how[as a general rule] Tony Sullivan recommends ,as does mel bays tutor,of course ..
this pattern is on occasions altered.
How to Play Irish Traditional[mel bays tutor]
Music on Tenor Banjo
by Chris Smith[quote]
For jigs, slip-jigs, some hornpipes, and other triple tunes, we use a strict down-up-down, down-up-down repetitive pattern.
there is a reason for this,you can emphasise much harder on a down beat.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

I have played slip jigs for forty years (with few exceptions) with picking as mentioned above
DUD DUD DUD. THis is on the tenor banjo. Fiddle bowing, of course, is something completely different.


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM

Tootler,
I may have gotten the name of the song wrong. What was that one that was used in a soda cracker comercial that went: 12,12,12,123/12,12,12,123/12,12,12,123/123,123,123/ ?


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: van lingle
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

Leaves me a bit speechless too. I guess part of the problem is the differenoce between the life of a tune as played by someone who knows, enjoys and can really play a tune and the attempt to tune this into notation.

123, 123, 123, DUD, DUD, DUD, with the emphasis on the ones sounds technically correct - am I over simplifying things?

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: alison
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM

I'm speaking from a bodhran perspective, but it works perfectly well for me when I play bouzouki.

done mnemonically if you play every beat you get

jel-ly-and, ice-cream-and, choc'-lat-sauce. DUD,UDU,DUD

now you can either start your next bar with an U or if you can do a fast double on the last beat of the bar before then you can always start on an upbeat .

If you want to leave beats out (ie not play all 9 in a bar) you leave out the middle one in any group of three.

change of food

ba-con-&, eggs &, saus-ag-es = DUD, U-D, UDU (leaves out beat 5)

just swap the food to leave out different beats

eggs- &, ba-con-&, saus-ag-es = D-U, DUD, UDU (leaves out beat 2)

saus-ag-es, ba-con-&, eggs- &, = DUD, UDU,D-U (leaves out beat 8)

hope that helps

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

out of interest,I had alook at my old copy of Alistair Andersons,Concertina workshop tutor,he talked about the emphasis in slip jigs,more or less what I am saying,but he did quote one tune where he put the emphasis in a different place,so I suppose it depends on the tune.
digressing slightly,Ihave tried some of sullys picking eg[lark in the morning double jig]and for the first six quavers he uses u d d udd,which is interesting giving you an emphasis on the second quaver,normally I prefer dud dud,but in this case it works for me,so having a system is good but its also good to experiment and break rules now and again.
some players may manage to develop strong emphasis on an up beat,so that dud udu,will work for them and still give an emphasis on the first fourth and seventh quavers.
in the end the only thing thats important is playing the music and enjoying it.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Playing slip jigs
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:55 AM

Don't confuse Carthy/Swarbrick's Byker Hill with a regular Slip-jig (sorry, but for me a regular 9/8 is a slip jig, Irish or not). Their tune - which is actually one phrase of the Northumbrian Dorrington Lads - is a split rhythm: 12,12,12,123 not a regular 123,123,123. It's rather like saying the Bonny Black Hare is 4/4 when it's actually 8/8 played as 123,12,123. If you really want some fun, take two players and float a 9/8 melody over a waltz 3/4 backing - wonderful!
Tom


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