Preference or Snobbish?

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:14 PM

How does one who has sung soprano in church choirs most of adult life, lose that formal almost polished sound?

The 'folk sound', for me, is the sound of the speaking voice - if you can't hear your speaking voice within the notes you're singing, it's probably too polished.

McGrath: if you've got a Virginia accent, sing the songs in a Virginia accent

Seconded. Affecting an accent will just give you one more thing to worry about. Keeping up an accent is like painting a wall, you need to make sure every word is covered - the best accent in the world will sound terrible if you miss a couple of syllables.

The other thing about accents is that they're complicated. When I hear people affecting an 'American' singing voice (which happens all too often, even on echt English material) I always wonder where that particular accent would actually be from (Florida? Oregon? Scranton, PA?) In your shoes I'd be worried about ending up with an equally non-specific 'English' singing accent.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

"Would you not like an Irish tune played by someone who is not Irish ?"
I don't like Irish anyway. But no, the Irish do them best.


"Would you enjoy an Irish Song if sung by an American with an American accent or even just a couple of words that has wrong pronunciation?"
Do you mean a song in the English language? He should sing it in his English language. If it is Gaelich, then unless he speaks gaelic he should not sing it at all.

"Do you enjoy American Country Music sung with a false accent ?"
I hate it anyway. It is less intolerable if sung by those from that tradition.

"Should American Fiddle music only be played on a fiddle?"
No. Choice of instrumnt is up to performer. I will hate it if they choose banjo tuba trombone or grand piano anyway (without limitation) - but set-neck distortion pedal might be fun.

"Do you enjoy a Opera singer singing Folk Music?"
If they sing it like opera - no. If they sing it as a folk song (Jon Loomes was an opera singer once) yes.

"Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?"
Don't be stupid, singers are musicians not impersonators.

"Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?"
Yes. Only they have the linkage to the subject matter/stylistic tricks - the instinct that enables most modern westerners to hear 4/4 but not 7/8 or 9/8 yet many from East Mediterranean cultures to hear "odd number" rhythms but not 4/4.
Transmogrifying a tune or a song is different, and very very occasionally a tune or a song may leap into life in a new culture - as Guantanamera and Kumbaya did in the USA in the 50s/60s - crossing the border into white America.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:06 PM

Whatever music you play is by definition a music of the country you belong to, because it's you who are playing it.

Tunes, songs, instruments and instrumental styles can move freely across frontiers and oceans, and always have.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:39 PM

ah! that would explain it, we've been transmogrified! they must have done it when we were asleep.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:29 PM

Is it Music preference or just snobbery if a performance is well sung and well played that it is not liked for other reasons?
I'm sure there is a context to Alan's questions that is not being brought to our attention but, for what they're worth, I offer some comments.

Would you not like an Irish tune played by someone who is not Irish ?
I'm one of the few (in the 40s) Australians with absolutely no Irish in my ancestry but I play Irish tunes, many of which have been thoroughly Australianised, along with their English, Scottish, American, Italian, Greek, Lebanese and Turkish counterparts, listed in approximate chronological order of "naturalisation". There's even a few Russian and Balkan tunes in there as I like them too, as well as play them. My friends haven't (yet) objected to me playing them and they've been gracious enough to ask me to play them so I do.

Would you enjoy an Irish Song if sung by an American with an American accent or even just a couple of words that has wrong pronunciation?
We have lots of Irish songs sung here, even by people from Ireland with a distinctly Irish accent. Most people who sing them do so with their own accent and are appreciated for it, irrespective of correctness of petty detail.

Do you enjoy American Country Music sung with a false accent ?
The concept of "a false accent" is interesting. I've heard false Oz accents, false oirish accents, false Scottish accents and even a few false French accents. None of them seems to have damaged American Country Music beyond repair, not even the Canadians; hang on, they're American too (as are the Mexicans, Peruvians, Chileans and Argentinians).
Should American Fiddle music only be played on a fiddle?

Do you enjoy a Opera singer singing Folk Music?
I've heard singers who started off in genres that aren't opera (even folk music) sing lieder and arias with some credit, and vice versa and it was always the calibre of the performance that determined my response rather than any other notions. Singers of lieder and arias have several advantages over most of the rest of us folkies. They're taught proper techniques of projection and how to look after your instrument. They're also taught how to pronounce words properly, although some of them forget in the excitement of getting into character and the emotional intensity of the moment (much like some folkies); this means (as someone earlier mentioned) that it can be easier to pick up words from them than from someone breathing heavily into a mic while soulfully mumbling, even in their native accent.

Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?
It was some years after I first heard Copper Family songs that I first heard anyone from the Copper Family singing them and they were all sung with Australian accents. Even so, we all seemed to enjoy them, sometimes to the point of learning and singing them ourselves.

Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?
If this proposition were followed, what music would the musicians' Australian-born offspring be legitimately able to play? Surely they must be allowed to play their parents' music? The research indicates that the music of immigrant performers changes significantly over the individual musician's lifetime, even in as little as a decade. I can remember Australian Macedonians being surprised that nonMacedonians should want to learn Macedonian tunes, songs and dances and then being even more surprised that some of the nonMacedonians were every bit as proficient as their sources.

So, I can't answer Alan's question whether there is only preference involved or whether snobbery is tainting the perceptions of the people around him. Perhaps the fact that I am surrounded by a successfully integrated multicultural community has biassed my own perceptions. I'm not sure of Alan's context but there are some communities where "multiculturalism" is honoured more in the breach than the observance and there are others where the term is treated with distaste rather than a welcome. I suspect responses would be affected by such variations in context.

But I admit to some irritation when I hear Australian Country Music songs being sung, in an accent thought to be from the US, by Australians who don't even have a passport.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:38 AM

Pip (and McGrath of Harlow)
"The 'folk sound', for me, is the sound of the speaking voice"
This can't be said too often - that's exactly what it is.
Most of the older singers, from whom we all got our songs (and should have got our information - but didn't) pitched their voices more-or-less around their speaking tones - they sang as they spoke. They also tended to sing in speech patterns, not breaking up words, taking the breath in the appropriate places (where state-of-health allowed) so that the songs came out as pieces of continuous narrative. Virtually all the older singers that we interviewed made it clear that they considered themselves storytellers whose stories came with a tune. In the west of Ireland they talk about 'telling a song' rather than singing it.
This does not mean that you can't enjoy an opera singer singing folk songs - it just means you have to listen to it with a different ear - with a different set of values. I quite like classical singing - as music, not as narrative (most of the operas are written in languages I don't understand anyway). Try reading through and enjoying a libretto as a story - I've never been able to. On the other hand, Peter Pears' rendition of 'The Lyke Wake Dirge' can make the hairs on the back of my neck bristle - as music.
The objective of the classical composer is different from that of the anonymous song makers - whoever they were; listen to the orchestral compositions.
George Butterworth's beautiful, rich, gentle, sweeping, all-embracing 'Banks of Green Willow - is about a woman made pregnant, cast adrift in an open boat and drowned along with her newborn baby. Vaughan Williams' extremely lyrical 4th Norfolk Rhapsody is based on a song which tells of a ship's apprentice abused, tortured and finally beaten to death by a sadistic sea captain. As I said - different objectives.
By the way; these (extremely interesting and thought-provoking) threads only work if you leave out terms like 'snobbish' and the particularly disturbing 'racist'; in my experience people who prefer one approach to another do so as a matter of taste - not because they secretly want to burn a cross on your lawn.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:07 AM

Richard you say that "singers are musicians and not impersonators"and yet only a few postings before you we have Will Fly doing George Formby impersonations.I mentioned American Country music as just about everyone who sings it uses a Southern American accent that is surely impersonation?
I am involved Rowan with International recordings that I have been working on for the last three years ,about one year to go.I have been interested in the feedback and response to some of the recordings.There is an interesting difference between what is liked in America,Ireland and the UK.What is really enjoyed in America can be disliked in Ireland and the UK and visa versa.Irish players of course are accepted in the UK and in the USA, but Irish music played by non Irish players outside of Ireland is sometimes not accepted.I must admit to not having much information on Irish reaction only "You would not hear that in a pub in Ireland".In a very small poll of reaction it is possible to gauge what a global response would be.Not accurately, but at least get a good idea.
There is a hidden agenda to my posting and the answers have almost exactly come out as I expected.
Thanks
Alan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:22 AM

Alan Day: we have Will Fly doing George Formby impersonations

Well, not strictly true. If I sing a George Formby (Senior) music hall song, I sing it in a Lancashire accent (not a "George Formby-style" Lancashire accent) - which is one of the accents I acquired naturally as a child. I'm not trying consciously to "impersonate" the music hall artist himself, just put the song over in the style appropriate to it. It would be problematical to sing it, for example, with a cockney accent (supposing I could do the accent) as the humour and style of his songs is essentially Lancastrian. There is a difference. And I don't sing George Formby (Junior) songs - very funny though they are - in public.

As for hidden agendas, makes you appear to be (as we used to say in Lancashire) a bit of a clever-clogs.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:23 AM

'Scuse the constant italics in the previous post - forgot the 'end italic' marker...

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

There is a hidden agenda to my posting and the answers have almost exactly come out as I expected.

So, you was not really asking the questions you posted? You were just playing us for suckers for some covert purpose known only to you? Thanks a bunch, pal. We all know how to respond to your posts in the future!

DeG

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:55 AM

So, you was not really asking the questions you posted? You were just playing us for suckers for some covert purpose known only to you? Thanks a bunch, pal. We all know how to respond to your posts in the future!

My thoughts exactly, DeG!

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

DeG I would not have posted the questions if I was not interested in the answers.I also though it was an interesting topic for discussion and that is also why I posted it.Thirdly just because the answers in general agreed with my thoughts on the subject and I posted it ,there is no reason for you to suggest that I am taking anyone as suckers.
Will please accept my apologies I misunderstood your George Formby posting and I should not have used you as an example in reply to the posting.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

You folks are making my head hurt.......... again!!!!

This thread is a straight forward attempt to address some issues that pop up. Why the need to turn it to something else? Alan isn't a controversial figure. He simply asked a series of questions. Stop already.

Mick

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:09 AM

Will please accept my apologies I misunderstood your George Formby posting and I should not have used you as an example in reply to the posting.
Al

Al - no worries!

Will

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

Mick - Much as I love your posts and your sensible arguments, Alan has already come out an said he has a 'hidden agenda', making it far from the 'straight forward attempt to address some issues' that you suggest. Just read it in his own words -

There is a hidden agenda to my posting and the answers have almost exactly come out as I expected.

OK, Alan - I mut say that the having us for suckers was a bit OTT and for that I apologise. I do however feel that you have cheated somehow and unless we are all aware what this 'hiden agenda' is I, for one, will feel like I have been taken for a ride.

Come on, man, out with it! You know confession is good for the soul:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

Thanks Big Mick for your support and to you Will for your reply.
David e G I tried to explain earlier that I am involved with a project involving International recordings.I will explain it further I have been collecting Archive and current recordings of concertina players to show the versatility of each concertina system.Anglo and English so far.
These recordings come from all over the World and involve artists from as many countries as I can find interesting players USA,Ireland,Spain,Canada ,Denmark,South Africa,UK and for this current project Duet the list goes on to other countries. These artists are invited to submit recordings for approval,the quality of playing is not set by me, but by the standard of what we receive.Although the final choice of what is included is not down to me I do submit the recordings for consideration.I take very seriously the responsibility of including an artists recording that may get heavily criticised and if they are professional musicians their livelihood.I quickly add that so far I have received no payment for this work it is done for my love of the concertina and many good friends that play them.I am therefore interested in reaction,what is liked and what is disliked, both here and abroad.I make use of the information ,yes,but I also find it interesting.
This is my hidden agenda. There are no suckers involved or sought.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

Why make it a hidden agenda then? What would have been so wrong with sayong that in the first place? Why the secrecy? I really do not understand.

DeG
(Anglo Concertina - Only play the secret music of the Gnomes)

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

I was more interested in the discussion David,the information that came out of the discussion was secondary.
Alan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:14 PM

Alan - were you involved in the 3-CD set "Anglo Concertina"? I have it and it's a great set. I'm a complete novice on the concertina, but I like what I hear, and it's a real eye-opener.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

I'd think it'd be a lot less likely for these kinds of complications to arise in relation to instrumental music than to singing.

In a sense there are equivalents to regional and national accents when it comes to instrumental techniques - but I've rarely come across the suggestion that there's anything inappropriate in adopting "foreign" ways of playing, whereas I have come across that attitude in relation to singing.

It occurs that there are two possible sources of those kind of criticisms - one is the idea that a kind of stealing is involved when someone trespasses into the special territory of another culture. And I think that is completely misguided.

The other source has a lot more going for it - this is the sense that doing this can mean a failure to make use of the riches of the singer's own native traditions, especially where these are neglected and threatened traditions.

I don't think it's an all or nothing business. In practice what often seems to happen is that people who started by adopting wholesale a foreign musical tradition end up by exploring and developing the traditions of their own country or region.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:51 PM

So it seems that Alan it doing something like the Planet Squeezebox project, and that completely changes the way we have to interpret his questions.

If the point of the project is to document the way the concertina is played in various parts of the world, then NO WAY is a German or Australian player of Irish music in a position to play for Ireland. Whereas an Irish player whose repertoire is mainly Scottish or English would be. An Irish player who had emigrated to the US after more or less freezing their style and repertoire could be put in either the American or Irish bag.

Starting out from what promises to be something like weelitledrummer's "nobody likes me, everybody hates me, think I'll go and eat worms" position is not a good way to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Y_Not
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:51 PM

Music and songs are a way to communicate to other folk, like any art form.

"Everone is influenced by everybody but you bring it down home the way you like it" Thelonious Monk.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

I was more interested in the discussion David,the information that came out of the discussion was secondary.

Ahhhhhh - I get it now. It is not a hidden agenda. Just that the information that came out was useful in a secondary way. Apologies for not understanding that. In my book a hidden agenda is something that is kept secret for a purpose, usualy nefarious, initialy undisclosed to the second party.

If I was to ask, for instance, what your views on a new film were, knowing that you hated it and I could then start an argument, my hidden agenda would be to start a fight.

Please be careful when using such expressions to people who are not equiped to know that you actualay meant something else. Us Gnomes are not gods you know!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM

Jack I do not see why you consider that by me not mentioning a concertina project it alters the discussion.If I decided to do another instrument after finishing concertina's the same questions of music and singing preferences apply.It is specifically why I did not mention it.
If any musician on this site issues a CD of their music and it is available Worldwide then I would have thought that a general view of possibly what to expect would be useful.The discussion has been fairly short so far, but if you read the comments about the music and singing it is quite interesting.It certainly has been for me and I appreciate most of the comments that have been expressed and I hope they continue.
In general the Anglo and English collections have been very well received Worldwide with excellent reviews ,but I do take notice of some of the comments,criticisms and suggestions that I have received World wide.Some of the decisions that have had to be made,(luckily not by me), are included in my introduction to this discussion.
The process of collating these collections (3CDs for each collection)requires a vast amount of communication I will try and do better DeG.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Kathleen Ferrier singing that collection of folk songs on the BBC recordings is just wonderful. The clear, strong voice rings out beautifully, either unaccompanied or with gentle and sympathetic piano accompaniment. The taste is impeccable. If you're professing not to like this, ask yourself honestly whether it's just because she somehow doesn't tick your folk boxes. Good music is good music and this is good music. To hell with the naysayers, who needn't have naysaid at all.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM

Jack I do not see why you consider that by me not mentioning a concertina project it alters the discussion.

It seems pretty obvious to me. If you're recording something that's going to be perceived as "the way they play in country X", then of course the nationality of the player matters as well as the nationality of the repertoire - and it matters far more than it would if we were just chatting about what we like to listen to.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM

Jack I do not see why you consider that by me not mentioning a concertina project it alters the discussion.

Because it seemed from what you said that you were trying to document the geographical variations in concertina playing, the way Planet Squeezebox did. In which case the only consideration is where the players are performing - if there's a volume that purports to be about concertina playing in Ireland, then somebody playing Irish music in the US doesn't belong there, even if they spent their entire previous life in Ireland and just got off the plane in the US the day before.

Instead you fired off a series of questions with extremely negative presuppositions, each one of which has been the start of interminably tedious discussions here. In effect you were blackmailing us to agree with you or be drowned in verbiage. Fuck that, if you want to classify anyone who might give the answers you don't like as a "snob" then I'm happy to be one. Rather that than a manipulator.

And re Steve Shaw's message: another classical singer I've heard do an English-language folksong well was Rita Streich. The difference was that she was genuinely witty, with comic timing that underlined the words perfectly. She did NOT just use the song as a medium for showing off her tone as your "clear, strong voice rings out beautifully" describes. There is a lot more to it than that. (Streich's accent wasn't native-speaker perfect, but so what - she got nearer to one kind of Scots accent than Ferrier did to any kind of Northumbrian in her most famous number).

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

Jack, try listening to something other than Blow The Wind Southerly. All those qualities of wit, warmth and timing are there in spades. I care not a jot about what accent she sang in. I hadn't even thought about it 'til you mentioned it. She is clearly just not to your taste, which is fine. I don't suppose she classed herself for one minute as a folk singer. Had she been able to read this thread it would have been one second. Heaven preserve us from English folkies with their heads up their bums!

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:49 PM

Well that's as it maybe but what about Obama?????????????????????

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:10 PM

I am involved, Rowan, with International recordings that I have been working on for the last three years, about one year to go. I have been interested in the feedback and response to some of the recordings. There is an interesting difference between what is liked in America,Ireland and the UK. What is really enjoyed in America can be disliked in Ireland and the UK and visa versa. Irish players of course are accepted in the UK and in the USA, but Irish music played by non Irish players outside of Ireland is sometimes not accepted.

and

I will explain it further. I have been collecting Archive and current recordings of concertina players to show the versatility of each concertina system. Anglo and English so far. These recordings come from all over the World and involve artists from as many countries as I can find interesting players USA,Ireland,Spain,Canada ,Denmark,South Africa,UK and for this current project Duet the list goes on to other countries.

Alan, I now realise why your name rang a distant bell in my memory; I now recall various threads to do with the concertina project(s).

I suppose I'm a bit let down that your "hidden agenda" remained hidden and required a bit of back and forth before it became clear but, that's life. I have a couple of other responses that, to me, seem relevant. When you say Irish players of course are accepted in the UK and in the USA, but Irish music played by non Irish players outside of Ireland is sometimes not accepted a host of thoughts crowd in.

Irish music was played in Oz for a long time by players who were no longer Irish and, in some cases, never had been. Some of the sources for the songs/tunes/music had been Irish but much had been brought here by nonIrish. While the Clare decorations might have been rubbed off in shearers' quarters and mining camps (and thus been deprecated by "the real Irish") they have been a vital part of the Oz music scene, even for Johnny-come-lately Anglo players like myself.

Then, in the early 1970s, we got hit by the Irish music tsunami; mostly instrumental tunes. Even I made a (quite short) pilgrimage to Clare to soak up the music. Both the Clare locals and the London Irish insisted that I play for them and were kind in their encouragement (and lack of deprecation) for a relative beginner from so far away. BUt the situation in Oz changed quite rapidly after I returned.

Lots of Oz players had stayed much longer in Ireland and, when they returned, their playing showed they had learned an enormous amount. AT first, after their return, when they joined in the sessions, the tunes we had all started out as beginners would be welcomed and they'd join in when some visitor like me started an old familiar. Over about 12 months this changed and the old familiars were no longer welcomed as much; some "session-owners" would even play over the top of such tunes. It got to the stage where, if the tune you played wasn't the very latest reel from Clare you'd be ignored. Very cliquey, and not my scene at all. I haven't seen such behaviour among players of English, Scottish, US, Canadian or Oz music/styles but I may have just been lucky.

Fortunately, there are lots of opportunities where newcomers and beginners, who may or may not be entranced by the Clare style (you could substitute other counties' styles) are given a fair suck of the sauce bottle and even encouraged; that's usually where you'll find me.

Another aspect of international music came to mind from your post and it seemed relevant. 25 or so years ago I was involved (very peripherally) with a UNESCO project that intended to collect music from various countries and release the collections under respective nationality headings. It was made quite clear to us that, as far as UNESCO was concerned, the only music that qualified as Australian, involved didgeridu, clapsticks and/or voices. Leaving aside the ethnographic limitations such a restriction placed on Indigenous music, nothing from nonindigenous musicians was to be countenanced; to UNESCO, such music was not Australian. Indigenous people performing "nonIndigenous" music wasn't of interest to UNESCO either. Needless to say, I lost interest at that point, even though I had some interests in aspects Aboriginal music.

I'm not sure how those memories fit into your agenda but you're welcome to them.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM

Pip Radish ,it was the chatting about what you and others liked to listen to that I was interested in,the concertina aspect I thought would narrow the subject down and it is doing just that.It may be a boring subject, but the information is interesting.
Someone like me learning another countries music from scratch and others around the World can produce very interesting and acceptable recordings.I have some and there are some in the International series
Is the music and performance no matter how good accepted in those countries or rejected? The recordings in countries other than where the music originated is accepted and enjoyed.The discussion on Opera is an example of differences in taste some will love a performance others will hate it.The performance and the accompaniment is second to none so why is it rejected ?
I will certainly think long and very hard about starting another discussion here,some seem dedicated to break them up, or lose their temper on every subject put forward for discussion.
I have now been accused of Blackmail added to writing racist remarks,stupidity etc just for putting a topic for discussion.
In amongst these posters are most who like genuine discussion held in a friendly manner and for that I thank you.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:57 AM

Nice to hear from you again Rowan.
I can understand your frustrations.Australians playing something other than didgeridu's surely not.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:26 AM

Ah well, back to the lagerphone I s'pose.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:29 AM

I have now been accused of Blackmail added to writing racist remarks,stupidity etc just for putting a topic for discussion.

You got off on the wrong foot with the original question - it's no wonder people react badly if they feel they're being asked "are you a snob?" Then you bundled together a lot of different questions, some serious, some daft ("Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?"), with the implication that anyone saying Yes to one ought to say Yes to all - and the strong suggestion that anyone who did say Yes was a snob. Then you told us you had a hidden agenda, which isn't exactly likely to win you friends.

As Jack said, the context of the question (your 'hidden agenda') makes a huge difference to how people answer. If I discovered tomorrow that Jon Spiers was an Icelandic immigrant who'd grown up in a gypsy encampment in Bavaria and taught himself bandoneon from an old Astor Piazzolla record, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to whether I like his music - but it would make a huge difference to whether I considered him a typical English player. So the answer to "Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?" is a great big It Depends - and the main thing it depends on is whether you've got any other agenda apart from enjoying the music.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

: I am involved with a project involving International recordings.I will explain it further
: I have been collecting Archive and current recordings of concertina players to show the
: versatility of each concertina system.Anglo and English so far.

Sounds like a great project. Now start over and throw away all your original questions, none of them have anything to do with that. Maybe start a new and explicitly named thread without all this bullshit.

You need to organize it so as to bring out the differences between the different systems. Get a performance of an Irish reel on an old brass-reed Anglo and put it beside a similar tune on a Wheatstone English. Put different tuning systems side by side playing similar music so you can hear how it affects things. Get a bunch of people playing the same type of box on a wide variety of different styles so you can hear the range of things you can do with each. Look at variations in technique, like Simon Thoumire's unusual grip or the way tango players mostly play on the draw, and see if you can hear that in the result.

I guess you're going to include chemnitzers and bandoneons too? People using the concertina to accompany singing? Bass concertinas used in mixed groups?

But I really can't see why you asked ANY of your original questions. They just don't matter to what you're doing.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Just a quick comment on Kathleen Ferrier, from my perspective, for Steve Shaw: Steve - I love KF singing the Ruckert Lieder (for example) and her performance of that never fails to move me. But, unfortunately, the folks songs don't appeal - just not my cup of tea. It's possible to like some of the output of an artist(e) but not other bits.

Regards,

Will

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

"Would you not like an Irish tune played by someone who is not Irish ?"

If its done well, yes. In Poland there are several groups playing Celtic music and doing it extremely well. If I didn't know they were Polish I wouldn't know any better. However, it might be different if they are singing. One group plays celtic music and the singer has very poor spoken English (pronuciation, diction etc) and when he sings a song it is unintelligble a lot of the time. He should stick to his instruments.

"Would you enjoy an Irish Song if sung by an American with an American accent or even just a couple of words that has wrong pronunciation?"

Not a problem, as it is arguably part of the historic process of migration and diaspora. A couple of hundred years ago the original singer may have pronounced things differently too.

"Do you enjoy American Country Music sung with a false accent ?"

Depends how false. The British Rockabilly band Matchbox used to do some songs about Dixie and the accent was laughable. There better stuff was when they didn't.

"Should American Fiddle music only be played on a fiddle?"

No.

"Do you enjoy a Opera singer singing Folk Music?"

No, for similar reasons mentioned by others.

"Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?"

I'll hazard a 'no' here but I've never heard one to judge against.

"Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?"

Depends. Some songs are openly played and shared across cultural and geographic borders. However, the player should understand the context of the song and whether it is appropriate to sing/play it. If a book of Yiddish songs is available in a shop then me playinmg the tunes shouldn't be a problem. However, getting a CD of sacred ritual tunes and playing them in a drunken session would be highly inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

Absolutely, Will.   I love her to bits in all genres. Could be that she was a Rochdale lass and I'm a Radcliffe lad I suppose. ;-)

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

Pip ,I am horrified and amazed that you have interpreted my question
"Is it music preference or just snobbery if a performance is well sung and well played that it is not like for other reasons? Would you like an Irish tune by someone who is not Irish?
Gurney's pal does not like anyone other than Irish singers singing Irish songs.Why ? The accent,the feel of the song or just that he does not like other musicians singing his Countries songs ?
Do you honestly think,when I have six CDs out there with another three to follow that I would suggest that if any of you do not like the tracks included,(about a third), being sung or played by artists that do not live in the country of the music that they are playing.that you are a bunch of snobs for not liking it.Just add TOTAL MADNESS to the other names levelled against me.I have invited these players onto the collection,mostly their music has been acclaimed, but there has been a few derogatory remarks.Hence the reason for this posting.It is out of interest of what peoples views are about the music they listen to,that I posted here.
I will see this nightmare to the bitter end, but I shall not post any subjects for discussion again.
Al
Jack I will answer your posting in more depth later.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Simon G
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM

How about Matty Groves performed by a rap artiste?

I'd love to hear something like that. As George Papavgeris said earlier in this thread both the composition and the performance are creative acts. Both are creative acts within a set of rules, a musical vocabulary and grammar. The problem of enjoying is often that one lacks enough understanding of one of genres rules. I certainly do for opera for example.

35 years ago I remember failing to understand my parent's claim that rock music was just noise. It was (and still is) noise to them because they have no notion of the musical language that is being used.

If you understand both the composers musical language and the performers as well then a mixtures of genres can be an inspired choice and a wonderful performance, but those that don't will be left out in the cold.

It is also important to tell the audience what language you are using, putting on a accent can be one way of doing this. Don't denigrate people who put on a accent, often they are doing so subconciously because they have discovered they need to give the audience a clue that they are using a particular musical language.

Of course taking another style and using your own accent and tone makes is your own - a gallic style + yorkshire accent = Jake Thackray

Looking forwardto the rap version on Maty Groves.

Simon

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:04 PM

Steve Shaw

Absolutely, Will.   I love her to bits in all genres. Could be that she was a Rochdale lass and I'm a Radcliffe lad I suppose. ;-)

Rochdale? Radcliffe? Gerraway! I were born in Chorley, lived in Horwich and went to school in Bolton - them's proper places, them is! ;D

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:05 PM

Do you honestly think,when I have six CDs out there with another three to follow that I would suggest that if any of you do not like the tracks included,(about a third), being sung or played by artists that do not live in the country of the music that they are playing.that you are a bunch of snobs for not liking it.

I don't know your work. What I honestly think is that your original post looked like an attempt to start a fight. I accept that it wasn't, but perhaps you should take on board some of my comments about why what you wrote was misread so badly (and not just by me).

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

I were born in Chorley, lived in Horwich and went to school in Bolton

That must have been a bit of a shock (for Bolton). There aren't many accents that can make Chorley sound a bit posh and townie, but Horwich does it.

Incidentally, Simon - Jim Moray does a version of er... not Mattie Groves, the other one... you know the one, long song, lots of verses, it'll come to me in a minute with a rap in the middle. Didn't really do it for me, I have to say, but I'm probably getting conservative in my old age.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM

What school, Will? Ah'm a Thornleigh lad missen, '62-'69 tha knows!

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:42 PM

I will see this nightmare to the bitter end, but I shall not post any subjects for discussion again.

Alan, your project(s) being the "nightmare" ... all power to your elbow. I've heard about your concertina CDs (mostly via threads on Mudcat) and, although I've not yet bought them or heard them, all the reviews I've seen have been full of praise and you should be congratulated mightily. When I get some spare readies I'll buy them, even though I've probably heard most of the players already; us concertina players tend to be more biassed towards an interest in such things than other instrumentalists, I suspect.

I'm curious about the nature (origins and intent) of the derogatory remarks you've received and, given my experiences of folk scene politics, can understand why you might not have wished to flag any particulars in your opening post. As you can see, even the calmest of us can sometimes forget that screen text doesn't communicate the moderations of intonation and body language we rely on in face-to-face conversations.

And I hope you continue to initiate posts.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

Some people really do seem raring for a fight.

Alan's questions all seemed perfectly sensible, if possibly tongue in cheek. Discussions and disagreements really don't need to be treated as if they had to involve quarrels.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Thanks Rowan.
Jack as promised here is a quick description of what I am up to.I did not post all the details in my introduction, or point out the full details of why I was asking the questions,what goes on between me and the artists is strictly confidential.Some recordings were deleted for various reasons,I would also not divulge any comments that come my way.The major criticism I receive is the artists I leave out of the collection,some of whom I do not know exist or in an attempt to balance out UK artists to World wide artists.
About twenty five or thirty years ago I had a copy of John Kirkpatrick's "Jump at the Sun" record and marvelled at him playing "Gigue",at the same time I was playing Concertina next to Will Duke who had a completely different style to me.On my trip to Sidmouth that year I heard Jackie Daly playing unbelievable Irish music on my concertina (after two weeks practice).The following day at the Ship Sidmouth I spoke to JK about doing a record of the versatility of the Anglo,showing all the different styles of playing.Ten Years later he chased me up about it and so did Graham Bradshaw Roots Records.I started inviting artists from all over the World.It did not include Chemitzers or Bandonions Jack as although in America they are called Concertina's they are not Anglos.
The collection includes a number of Archive tracks of players that were donated .Some very rare and featuring artists like Scan Tester,Fred Kilroy,Andrew Blakeny Edwards,Zulu Squash Box recordings.Some of the line up includes Noel Hill,Mary and Kate McNamara,Chris Shurburn and his Band,Jody Kruskal and His Contra Dance Band and of course JK playing a new version of "Gigue" and other tunes.It has been a great success getting plays on Radio Stations all over the World and rave reviews.
On completion we were asked by a number of musicians playing other concertina systems to do a follow up of English and Duet.English has just been released and we are getting identical response and reviews.
As we received some very important and rare archives it has enabled us to do a History of the English Concertina by using Archives and current recordings from 1850 to the current day (also a 3 CD collection www.englishconcertina.org).This includes two of the Concertina Bands recorded in 1935, Ashton under Lyne and The Heywood (Manchester).For me fantastic.
We were so exited by the Big Bands that we are investigating a possible Concertina Band CD to finish this International Series.
There could be others to follow on other instruments ,whether I will be involved, or not, I am not sure.There is an English International Collection currently in the Auction at half the list price.
I hope this goes some way to letting you know my activities.I am currently working on Duet International and we expect to release it about November next year.
Al.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

I'm with you McGrath. I have been very disappointed in some of the unkind, and in my view unjustified criticism of Alan. it does appear to me that some contributers are going out of their way to be acrimonious. Alan's first posting prompted a dilema I have with regard to singing particular songs in particular company. I find myself dicouraged from posting it for discussion for fear I might be similarly targeted.

Rog

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM

For what it's worth, the CDs sound like a fantastic project and a highly valuable resource. But I really, seriously, think that Alan made several mistakes in the way he posed his original questions, starting with the thread title.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Perhaps its not snobbish.

We're all just old and intolerant.

Call me a twat, but I get fed up with appreciating things. I prefer it, if I can just enjoy them.

I can see that all the things I hate about the folk revival have their value. But equally I can see that not many other people like them either.

I'm sure all these other folk aren't wrong. But the folk revival has travelled long way from a lot peoples doors.They will get their grants, and festivals and never sell many records, because people do not love them in the way that say they love a Beatles song. And look how often on Mudcat, we hear someone bleating on because they have sat through an evening of beatles songs at a folk club.

The middle clsses have all the power in this land. And maybe that's how it should be. the more aware, the more educated setting the standard for us all to jump up to.

But its not the origin of this music. And its not where the genius resides.