neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

I'm sure Steve Knightley is going to be absolutely thrilled that his rather dubious, dreary rant has been dredged up yet again to back the tedious and divisive "we're better than you because we're cleaner and whiter" brigade. There was enough bother getting Roots (amongst other misconstrued ditties) off neo-fascist sites in the first place.

With National Aids Day coming up, it's timely to reiterate that there's no greater sin, indeed no sin at all, except ignorance. If you choose not to be active in opposing every threat to democracy, culture and freedom of expression except filthy proclamations of fascist ideology however sugar-coated for the dim, you are complicit in its propagation.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

To WLD, sure, unilateral action is unfortunately not a safe idea.

Still it will be interesting to see what others on the thread, who have been discussing broader possible actions to adressing the situation think?

Sensible discussion and further awareness raising on threads such as this amongst many things, will hopefully spur some further debate and inspire thoughts and ideas, which may generate collective real world action within the folk community? I had a vague discomforting notion that there was something dodgy going on, and thanks to some great feedback, I'm now aware that very clearly there is. Responses here have enlightened me greatly.

I do hope this thread doesn't get derailed by hair pulling and point-scoring exercises, on quite irrelevant side issues. Because there were indeed some interesting embrionic suggestions for real world action that could be taken, and some people onlist were very clear about their desire to become actively involved.

Very curious too, to hear updates about what those artists who have been told that thier music is being used as BNP propaganda, think on the matter??

If action is needed, it's got to begin with greater *awareness raising* within the folk community as a whole. I don't know how that would be initiated. But if concerned folk artists were to become vocal in some way and object, it might be a start.

For those who are concerned and well informed, and indeed may well have been concerned for a long time, what real world actions would they suggest in order to promote far greater awareness of the situation?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:02 AM

This is part of why people are starting to rebel against the Extreme Left political correctness, which has poured guilt down on the English, convincing them that daring to be proud of their nation is to be racist, who've taken away their feeling of who they are and what they stand for...



'ROOTS' by Steve Knightley:

"Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From moor to vale, from peak to fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For 'Duelling Banjos' 'American Pie'
Its enough to make you cry
'Rule Britannia' or 'Swing Low'
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


'Song for Saint George' written by Gez

It was this time last year when they told us to hide
To hide our St. George Flag away
"Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets
If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay
And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not
It's worse than the Union Jack
For St. George is dead and buried
We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back

Just sit down
Just sit down
Just sit down
No, don't stand your ground"

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street
Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born
In this country of green promised land
And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart
And no love for our own countrymen
Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day
The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told
Celebrated by all who arouse one and all
Old St. George has been left in the cold

Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Just stand your ground!

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town
Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall
For my country on St. George's Day
Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends
So they know that he's not gone away
I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring
Through the fields and the streets of this land
You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England
You can take old St. George from my windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England"


I am fair fed up with those within the BBC who think they have a right to behave in whatever way they so choose. They don't. If they're kicking their heels up like spoilt little brats, excellent!For way too long they've been dumbing down this country, not ALL at the BBC, they make some bloody wonderful programmes, but this wanting to 'smash' what England once stood for, into dumbed down, no pride whatsoever pieces has now gone, forever. Ross and Brand, without realising it, in taking that step too far, woke many people up, enraged them, and they will no longer lie down and take it anymore.

The days of the Spoilt Brat BBC is over, they simply have to realise it. No-one is demanding a return to the days of Mary Whitehouse, but people are wanting change. A change from this 'in yer face' "YOU have to do and like whatever we say, to hell if it offends you!"

Sorry, the days of 1984 have gone and we Proles are Rising Up in our own, quiet revolution.

The BNP stink, they always have done, they always will do. Every country in the world has a minority of people who hate other people, ANYONE who is in any different. It's always been that way, and until the whole world intermarries and becomes the same colour, it will, sadly, continue.

The English Folk World also has people who think along similar lines, I'm afraid, who choose and desire to exclude those they deem not good enough, not 'correct', who are not 'pure' enough, or who 'sing in the wrong accents' The Folk World needs to look at itself with new eyes and change that attitude, because it also, stinks.



I happen to live in a deeply beautiful country, but one that has lost it's way, that has had every piece of shite history shoved down it's throat, whilst all the wonderful history has been denied a whole generation, possibly two by now. We have young people who know nothing of their country other than 'you English are baaaaaaaad people' and so they have no feeling of goodness about themselves.

Well, you know what...The English are a damned wonderful people! We are one of the most welcoming people in the world and that is why so many want to come to our shores.

Do not hold me or my country responsible for what happened hundreds of years back, that time is past, LONG past, and I doubt there is any other country in the world which is so welcoming, so fair and so non-racist, as England is these days.

We are the land of William Wilberforce as well as the land of the Bristol Slave Traders. Slavery has been going on for centuries, the English did NOT invent it. Yes, many bastards made money from a terrible thing, but there was one man who stood up to them all, who dedicated his life to ending that vicious, horrific part of history, and that man was an Englishman, a man who has now sparked off The Amazing Change campaign in America, to try to end modern day slavery around the world.

I am English.
I am proud to be English.
I am also a citizen of the world.
I am proud to be that also.

My country has Rainbow Coloured people these days and that's just fine with me.

I am a proud Englishwoman, but that does NOT make me a racist, or a facist, both of which I have been called by the two women on here who think that those who do not think as they do, should be banned and silenced.

Er??????????? You couldn't make it up really, could you.

EVERYONE has a right to free speech, sadly even the BNP, because that is how democracy works, what it is founded on. What is SO wrong, is when you get people who want to deny others their voice, their opinions, their beliefs, because that way lies dictatorship.

I personally know what it's like to have my freedom of speech taken away, it is terrible, particularly when those who still have theirs, use it to continue to abuse.

And now, I'm off to work for The National Trust, to help them raise yet more money to keep our wonderful history and heritage safe, so that ALL people, of ALL colours, faiths and backgrounds can enjoy the beauty of the countryside, the coast, the historic houses, farms and gardens of England.

Cry God For Harry, England...and St. George, in whatever language may be yours, and thank God that we are all free to live in England's Green and Pleasant Land, home of some of the most wonderful and inspirational people in the world.


The National Trust - "Forever, For EVERYONE"

And THAT is what MY country is about. It is not just MY country, it belongs to us all, even those who have yet to settle here.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 03:23 AM

So, are you saying we should be a nation, a people, with no morals at all?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 03:10 AM

Ha! Even the clickingmaker doesn't work any more. I blame the BBC, the general decline in moral standards, and the cluttering of our high streets with useless junk shops (there'll be some massive ones where MFI and Woollies used to be).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/nowshow.shtml

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM

The real enemy is of course, as always, complacency and mediocrity. How many of you bothered to re-run The Now Show on the iPlayer?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/nowshow.shtml

To celebrate the new series, Marcus Brigstocke referred to that phenomenen, the moral minority', which has surfaced, wheezing and whining, in a flurry of faded Laura Ashley to queue at a "heritage" tat shops and buy pointless New Age dross, in his sights.

" I call them "the sanctimonious, narrow-minded, hysterical peddlers of censorship and mediocrity" minority but that's only because if I called them what they really are, they'd put the BBC on eBay in a massive pointless sacrifice on the altar of mundanity. The spirit of Mary Bloody Whitewash is reborn in a nation of clamp-buttocked, po-faced dullards with lips so tightly pursed they look like a cat's exclamation mark".

Their mantra is: "It falls to us, the moral minority, to make sure things are safe 'for the children', safe and clean and with Nicholas Lyndhurst in them". If only 30,000 people, egged on by the tossers of Derry Street, would call up the BBC to complain about mediocrity. Instead, what do you get? Somebody posts 10,000 names and addresses of BNP members on the internet. So Hazel Blears goes on the telly and gives them massive extra publicity while bleating about the "danger". Well done.

What we want to know is what's the Home Office going to do to alleviate the social deprivation that is at the root of the smug and selfish whingeing, or better still, deport the whingers instead to do a spell of VSO. A re-run of the Clash in Victoria Park 30 years on would be jolly good (I wish) but far from enough to quell the fascists' insidious bid for respectability. It needs more than a bunch of well-meaning "f*lkies" (probably also complete with Laura Ashley cladding). And to that I'll add the fervent wish that this wholly discredited, now meaningless term gets binned in the ensuing revolution that has to happen.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:33 PM

You can't say The National Trust is marginalising England's heritage, Kevin, it's HEAVING with heritage! :0) You want to take a look at some of the wonderful books we sell, for a start...let alone all the old skills that The National Trust is teaching young people, ensuring that everything 'lives on'....They're a wonderful organisation.

I just found this..

"..With the library at the heart of the strategy, some will say that there is no need to define the focus of the organisation too strongly, but if the EFDSS is to rekindle its membership (at one time it had more members than The National Trust) people need to know what they are joining and why...."

I doubt that. The National Trust has more members than all the major political parties of this country added together.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:18 PM

If the National Trust has only ever sold one English folk music record that'd be pretty shocking.

If true it's just the kind of thing that could be used by the BNP as an example of how English heritage has been marginalised, even by an organisation that should be value it highly.

I think and hope that Lizzie may be mistaken there, because I'm sure I've seen, and bought more than one record with English folk music from NT shops over the years. If it is true, something needs to be done about it.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM

From McGrath:

"...sort of blend of National Front and National Trust."

Just need to say, as I work for The National Trust, that we sell, and have only ever sold, one English folk music CD. None of those on the BNP site are anything to do with us at all. I understand where you're coming from....but...The National Trust doesn't even belong in the same sentence as The National Front. Just needed to make that crystal clear.

From Ruth Archer:

"I'd like to see the prim and proper, Daily Mail-reading, Mary Whitehouse, anti-BBC brigade banned from Mudcat and all. We don't always get what we want."

Therein lies the difference, for I believe in freedom of speech, not banning those who don't share the same outlook as me, or taking their voice away, annhilating them on every messageboard possible.

Isn't this what the BNP love doing, ridding themselves of those they feel are 'different', the wrong colour, the wrong faith, not pure in their roots....

...the wrong music..the wrong outlook...the wrong accent....the wrong 'family'....

Interesting, huh?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM

Jack Campin, the Cabaret song was "Tomorrow belongs to ME," which makes its message even more pointed. Murray linked to a youtube version in which the US flag replaced the swastikas, but we don't need such in-your-face devices to understand humankind's terrifying capacity to be led by the nose. You can't herd cats, but you can herd humans. What happened in the film could happen anywhere, or at least anywhere where people had been made to taste dirt, as Germans had been in the aftermath of WW1.

The very fact that Murray is seduced by the song shows what a potent piece of work it was. The way it was handled in the film for which it was written is still, 30-odd years later, one of the most spinechilling sequences I have seen in the cinema (the dramatic impact of the song wonderfully enhanced with at least three stunning key changes). I cannot imagine what it must be like to sit through it if you are a Jew, a gay, a black or - it seems - a Serb (cf one of McGrath's posts above).

The urge to persecute those weaker than ourselves seems to be part of the human condition. I remember in South Africa and Zimbabwe seeing "coloureds" (as they were classified by their white masters), having been granted certain trivial privileges, abusing their "kaffir" servants and wallowing in their superior status. Whata pathetic spectacle hey made.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:41 PM

Yeh okay, but what if you get your fingers broken?

I'm not sure unilateral action is without risks.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:41 PM

Perhaps I should have said not merely a winge on an obscure message board.

I have been watching this thread since Sleepy Rosie started it. And I have kept my two bits to myself because I just did not know enough. Most contributors to it have been educating me and for that I am grateful.

I just wish people would stop being so (unkind?) to each other especially when they are basically on the same side. We should not be tearing each other apart.

Now I really must drag my lazy a** away from Mudcat and start practicing my instruments and learning Wassail songs for the season.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:25 PM

Thank you for the clarification.

Ruth:    "The other approach, which i think many of us who work in this area would advocate, is to try and promote and celebrate English traditions as part of the whole mix of cultures and heritages which exist on this island."   [Emphasis mine—DF]

Apparently I didn't put it very clearly in my earlier posts because it was completely misinterpreted, but this was essentially what I was saying. Sitting here an ocean and a continent away from David Franks and the BNP, I most certainly have no concerns about their wanting to limit my repertoire to please their agendas. I can treat it with the contempt that such edicts deserve and go ahead and sing what I want, mixing songs from different cultures like a tossed salad if I wish.

They are obviously not going to be converted by singing Kum Bay Yah at them any more than are the uniformed (and uniformed) Hayden Lake bunch or the rednecks dressed in their white sheets and cone heads. I was not so naïve as to suggest this, as some seemed to think.

I am in agreement with what Virginia Tam said just above: "Action out in the wide world is what is needed." The point of Virginia Tam's with which I don't agree is about the thread itself. Until I began reading it, I was not fully aware of the magnitude of the problem. I will continue to follow this discussion.

And in the meantime, sing what you want to sing, from different cultures if that is what you wish, and if there are people out there who object to your choice of songs for whatever reason, they don't have to listen. If it annoys a BNP member, so much the better.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

Sorry I was being typically (American) sarcastic again with the Martin Niemoller mimicry above.   Not helpful at all.

Ummm aren't we all against fascism in this thread? Why then is there so much sniping at each other and willful misinterpretation of what is being said?

Follow the gourd! No follow the shoe! We are the People's Front of Judea and not the People's Judean Front.

This thread is only a tiny drop of justified outraqe in a sea of information good and bad.

Action out in the wide world is what is needed. Not a winge on an obscure message forum.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:02 PM

Ruth said earlier:


I'd like to see the prim and proper, Daily Mail-reading, Mary Whitehouse, anti-BBC brigade banned from Mudcat and all. We don't always get what we want

The Now Show on R4 have just broadcast an item on these very lines (well, not about Mudcat but about the po-faced, whingey brigade in general). Concluded with "just because you buy a bus ticket it doesn't mean you own the bus. You can't make it drive you home and you can't make it park outside your house till morning.

It'll be on the iPlayer in a bit.

Isn't there a fair bit of re-invention of the wheel going on here? What the nasty right is up to in attempting to hijack music has been going on for several years now and it's been posted up on here more than a few times. Certainly by me anyway . . .

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:50 PM

Every culture has it's folk-music and folk traditions. The UK is home to a great variety of different cultures. I think there could be some quite interesting multi-cultural folk-music projects? Which could both serve the agenda of an anti-facism/racism statement on behalf of concerned British folk artists. And potentially also work on cultural bridge building? Especially in some of those cities with lots of cultures.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

Well one good thing from all this....

Now the facists have come for the folkies, we do not remain silent.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:34 PM

No waving. Sights are fixed firmly on Derry Street.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM

Er, excuse me but could you stop waving thsoe guns about? The enemy are over there.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM

Thing is, Richard, what Don said was so bleedin' muddled that it's hard to tell. As for the rest of what he said, I had composed a diatribe very much on the lines of that of Mr Radish (though obviously less polite). But who am I to try and stop people of reading and regurgitating the DM? (Wish I could though . . . )

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

I don't think that Don said that, though, did he Diane?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

If a black person feels that he/she is being discriminated against because of skin colour, his/her complaint MUST be treated as a case of racism, and seriously investigated as such. No such consideration is forthcoming when the complainant is white. Try making a complaint, and see where it gets you.

A few years ago my son got picked on at the local swimming pool. Trying to get an idea of who the lads were who'd done it, we asked him (among other things) if they had brown skin. He said "Yes, but why do you ask?", which made us feel... well, not racist so much as out of date. When he was at primary school he was told over and over again that being black or Asian is OK, that being Muslim is OK, and so on - and as a result of this bombardment of PC propaganda he grew up genuinely not caring about skin colour. I think that's a real social advance.

But the story doesn't end there. After we complained to the management of the baths about what had happened, we were contacted by the police, who asked if my son wanted to make a statement. They said that they were concerned that there might have been an incident of racially-motivated violence (i.e. that my son had been picked on because he's white), and they wanted us to know that they take any such incident very seriously. My son said he didn't want to take it any further, and that was that.

So I can assure you, Don, that (at least in Guardian-reading South Manchester) your belief is 100% unfounded. Not only do the authorities not reject complaints of anti-white racism - they actually invite such complaints.

Government, both national and local, is falling over itself to avoid upsetting ethnic minorities, in ways that sometimes even those ethnic groups find ridiculous.

Banning Blackboards
Banning Nativity plays in primary schools
Banning the traditional Christian assembly, that ties in with our having an established church.

Have you got any evidence that any of this has happened? (The 'banning' part especially.) It's true that at my daughter's school the morning 'act of worship, predominantly Christian' doesn't seem to have any religious content at all, but (a) that seems more likely to be a pragmatic adaptation to a 50% non-white school population than a diktat from higher powers, and (b) I don't know if this is true of other state primary schools, and if it is how long it's been like that.

These are myths, Don - myths, (urban) legends and occasional isolated cases of genuine PC zealotry, most of which have gained mythical proportions in the telling. And they're precisely the sort of myth that the BNP thrive on.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM

The Wizzythingy said earlier:

This argument has been played out before in respect of homosexuals, and there seems to be (with a few exceptions) a consensus that, unless they try to convert others, there is not much of a problem

By which he appears to be referring to Section 28, a really nasty piece of divisive legislation beloved of fascists and Mail / Sun reading types aimed at discriminating against anyone "a bit different" by stoking up hatred against them.

It's but a small step to banning Jews, Gypsies, travellers, asylum seekers of any hue and just about anyone the blame can be shifted onto for poor housing, unemployment, the Black Death and whatever you dislike on television from having jobs, a home or any rights whatsoever.

Yes, I can hear certain people screaming "what's this got to do with music?" Well, quite a lot when you start making your own concocted exceptions about who can participate. The idea of revising RAR as FAR is all very fine (though Love Music Hate Racism got there quite some time ago). I just wonder what membership criteria some people will be laying down though. If you're gay, go away?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

""As someone who works in this area and is as "PC" as they come, Don, I simply don't recognise that comment - at least in terms of the arts. I do think that there was a concerted effort to remedy the under-representation of other cultures present in Britain in the arts, and that some perceived this as a threat to "white English" culture. But what does "white English" culture mean? At a venue where I worked that had a very strong world music programme, we also had a huge strand of classical music, which even got its own brochure.""

Expand your thinking a little beyond the somewhat rarefied atmosphere of "The Arts" Ruth.

There are numerous examples of the fact that political correctness has passed beyond the realms of reasonable balance.

If a black person feels that he/she is being discriminated against because of skin colour, his/her complaint MUST be treated as a case of racism, and seriously investigated as such. No such consideration is forthcoming when the complainant is white. Try making a complaint, and see where it gets you.

Government, both national and local, is falling over itself to avoid upsetting ethnic minorities, in ways that sometimes even those ethnic groups find ridiculous.

Banning Blackboards
Banning Nativity plays in primary schools
Banning the traditional Christian assembly, that ties in with our having an established church.

I am not suggesting that we go back the other way, but we do need to treat EVERYONE equally, and if, as you say, we are doing that, then what is driving so many people into the clutches of the BNP? Because, you know, they are gaining support, and we need to stop that ASAP.

Don T.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM

Excellent idea, but make it utterly inclusive. Folk clubs, sessions, festivals, performers, the whole works.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Folk demonsrtation against facism and racism is a fantastic idea.
Why stop at single demonstration.

Why not include information in programmes of little beer and folk fests? Why not broach the subject in folk clubs and create some sort of charter? Why not ask artists to include statements in sleeve notes of their albums? Why not talk to schools and parent associations and ask to do demonstrations of morris and folk music? Invite parents from all ehtnic background to visit a practice or session?

Just a thought or twenty.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

IF I had mentioned any names you would have a right to be offended, as I did NOT mention any names, and you assumed the mantle of the insulted, perhaps you should look to your self as to why it upset you.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

I dunno about you, John, but this thread would seem to be about the attempts of the BNP to hijack English traditional music. As a direct outcome of the thread an example was uncovered and is now being dealt with. Result.

"great on theory and crap on experience on the ground."

You don't know what anyone here might be getting up to in real, practical ways. You don't know our political histories, or what we might have done in the past. So clearly with this statement you are presuming knowledge you don't possess.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:13 AM

"Maybe there would the the potential of generating Folk Against Racism activities which would directly and explicitly challenge and repudiate this, and would involve people who have been targetted in this way, along with others who object to having the music they love treated as a tool for the racists."

I would certainly be interested.

BTW., the BNP are said to have a big demonstration planned for Liverpool some time in the fairly near future. If I can find out when I'll let people know.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Terry, it's in hand. Simon Care is already contacting several of the other artists. No, they did not know. But whether they have the power to do anything about it is another matter.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM

I think I might just list all the artists on those CDs , and try an E Mail to them asking if the ARE aware !

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Banjiman
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

"Maybe there would the the potential of generating Folk Against Racism activities which would directly and explicitly challenge and repudiate this, and would involve people who have been targetted in this way, along with others who object to having the music they love treated as a tool for the racists."

I like this idea alot. Anyone fancy taking it forward?

Paul

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:36 AM

Maybe there'd be a way of turning this in a positive way. I'm quite sure that probably without exception the people who the BNP are implying are on their side in this way will be angry at this.

Maybe there would the the potential of generating Folk Against Racism activities which would directly and explicitly challenge and repudiate this, and would involve people who have been targetted in this way, along with others who object to having the music they love treated as a tool for the racists.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

Leadfingers. "Interesting to see that Margaret Barry is on one of the CDs ! And I always thought she was from Traveller stock !!!Or didnt the BNP do its research properly ?"

The BNP wouldn't know who Margaret Barry was if she'd got up off the floor and kicked them in the crotch.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

Ruth is right. For instance The Best of British Folk is produced by a company called Pegasus. See here - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-British-Folk-Various-Artists/dp/B000FS9PDK but that's certainly not the way it looks on the Excalibur site. They seem to be using a few legitimate records to give credibility to their own crap.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

I lived in England for a lot longer than you have Ruth, I'm no blow-in.
I don't presume knowledge I don't possess.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:27 AM

Spleen Cringe
The P.C. Brigade:-
Those who would officially remove from our everyday working vocabulary words, apart from derogatoty terms, that have been part of our language for millenia because it "might offend someone".

Those who would ban the use of well established latin or foreign text from council official and public documents because people may not understand them. (Surely the thing to do is to educate to ensure people do understand them).

Those who would, off their own back and without reference, ban the religious or social rites that a community or the nation has always enjoyed because it "might offend someone".

Those in education who would shy away from telling the whole history of nations ,warts and all, because one side of the story "might be uncomfortable".

And perhaps on a more humourous tack, those who would enforce the use of signs on w.c. doors informing people who don`t know what gender they are, day to day, which toilet to use.

These are just a few examples but I`m sure there are more.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:27 AM

I see that they have also been astute enough to include a number of Bob Dylan songs on their "Best of BRITISH Folk". Since they hold his work in such high regard why were such pieces as "The Ballad of Hollis Brown", "Only A Pawn in the Game", "Oxford Town" and "With God on Our Side" not included. I also can't find "I Pity The Poor Immigrant"
I also see that they have got the buck to include "Dirty Old Town" - written by Ewan MacColl, kinell.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

they've clearly picked up on some CDs which have been packaged for places like Past Times and the National Trust, but are marketing them alongside their own racist label "Great White Records". The problem is that the way they're being marketed makes it looks as though they've been produced by the BNP. And that would imply the consent of the artists, which most certainly has not been sought.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:03 AM

Interesting to see that Margaret Barry is on one of the CDs ! And I always thought she was from Traveller stock !!!Or didnt the BNP do its research properly ?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:38 AM

Spleen cringe - well said.

Mcgrath - I have just let Simon Care know that the Albion band are on a CD being promoted by the BNP. I don't think he's going to be amused. I'd love to know how many of those artist are aware tha ttheir work is being used as racist propaganda.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM

Richard, I think I understand largely where you're coming from. You would like to see English culture and traditions better understood, taught and represented - and so say all of us. The point I was making is that the BNP is trying to hijack this relatively moderate idea, and the relatively moderate individuals who believe in it, for their own nefarious ends.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

"Well I would like to see the BNP banned from Mudcat, that's certain.
It always arouses ire, and interjections from people who are great on theory and crap on experience on the ground."

You know what they say, John: don't like it, don't read it. Please don't presume to pontificate, from Scotland, about what may or may not be the experience "on the ground" of the people who post to these threads.

I'd like to see the prim and proper, Daily Mail-reading, Mary Whitehouse, anti-BBC brigade banned from Mudcat and all. We don't always get what we want.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

"The PC brigade"

I wish someone would tell me who these people are. They get blamed for everything. I'm a Guardian-reading left-of-centre social worker - do you perhaps mean me? If so please tell me why fascism and racism is my fault and why your argument is not a cheap shot and a cop out. I blame the likes of the Daily Mail for perpetuating this crap, personally.

"there will no longer be reason for white Brits to feel left out in their own country"

So why as a "white Brit" should I feel left out in a country where the vast majority of the population, including most MPs, captains of industry, judges, union leaders, jounalists, police, aristocrats, land owners are white Brits? It's largely Thatcherite and New Labour "white Brits" (and "white Brits" have never been an homegenous grouping despite what the BNP would like us to believe) who have created the current cultural and political climate that has disenfranchised a proportion of white working class Brits (along with a fair few black and asian working class Brits, too, let us not forget!).

I think Paul Burke's analysis above is spot on.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

I did wonder whether you were so suggesting, Ruth. I am glad to be reassured that you were not.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

Looking at that collection of records in those links The Snail gave us - sort of blend of National Front and National Trust.

There's no doubt that the BNP brand of fascism is much more dangerous than its predecessors. The danger lies in an evident awareness of the kind of stuff that pisses off ordinary people, and the need to put that under the counter, or even throw it out. And a parallel recognition of the stuff that appeals to people, and can pull them in.

Including a version of "The Streets of London" in a CD "Ballads for the New Britain - A compilation of cover versions of nationalist standbys"; or "Hal an Tow" as part of "A superb collection of patriotic songs by an array of Great White Records artists". That kind of thing is clever and threatening.

I think in fact that it is actually quite useful to look across the Atlantic for parallels and warnings about how it is possible for the far right to build up support among a swathe of ordinary people by hijacking symbols and images and tying them in with resentments and fears. And as a result came to dominate much of mainstream politics.

Stopping the BNP is going to take clear-eyes intelligence. And I think that the signs are that the folk world needs to play quite a significant part in that.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

Well I would like to see the BNP banned from Mudcat, that's certain.
It always arouses ire, and interjections from people who are great on theory and crap on experience on the ground.
You need to live in the areas where the BNP is strong to know the what when and why. No amount of reading, sociology degrees, or apocryphal stories, will deal with this threat.

JM

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:37 AM

"It is clear RB does not agree with BNP agenda."

I wasn't suggesting that he does...read MY post again.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:29 AM

making sure children are taught about their own culture

Whose own culture?   Has the BNP lately taken an ethnicity head count in today's classrooms? Of course they would not permit any non-British in the classroom, would they?

It is clear RB does not agree with BNP agenda. Read his first post more carefully, please. There is a danger of getting carried away in any ideology, if it leads to hate and violence. this includes anti-BNPism.

Re PC agenda, it is pretty well known that English tradtion, takes a back seat in the classroom, to a more global culture inthe curriculum. Simply the government's sad attempt to squash racism which as already said in this thread only serves to make it stronger. But what would you do? If you know how to blend both fairly then please make suggestions.

This all reminds me of Baptists way back in the day. They were quite isolationist. I remember preachers telling parishioners not to get too involved in politics (a worldy thing). Baptists are pretty fundamental. Look where that lead. It bred a splinter of moral majority that soon took over. We all know where that went. Jerry Orwell, Rush Limbaugh and George dubbya

As RB said above... this is difficult stuff.

We all neet to work at understanding, learn from mistakes made by self and others and practice and model tolerance.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

"Do the people on these records know?"

If not, they're about to find out...