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Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?

Ptarmigan 03 Dec 08 - 02:13 AM
TheSnail 03 Dec 08 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,HughM 03 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Dec 08 - 11:20 AM
Alan Day 03 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM
Bernard 03 Dec 08 - 12:01 PM
The Sandman 03 Dec 08 - 01:37 PM
treewind 03 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM
Ptarmigan 03 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM
cloudstreet 03 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM
Ptarmigan 04 Dec 08 - 02:06 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Dec 08 - 06:33 AM
Sailor Ron 04 Dec 08 - 07:01 AM
Desert Dancer 04 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM
Desert Dancer 04 Dec 08 - 10:32 AM
Ptarmigan 04 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM
Desert Dancer 04 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM
Ptarmigan 04 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM
EBarnacle 04 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM
Peter the Squeezer 04 Dec 08 - 02:15 PM
Ptarmigan 04 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM
Mary Humphreys 04 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM
Guran 06 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM
Ptarmigan 06 Dec 08 - 05:19 AM
Ptarmigan 06 Dec 08 - 06:29 AM
Guran 06 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM
Ptarmigan 06 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM
The Sandman 06 Dec 08 - 02:45 PM
Bernard 06 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM
Guran 07 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM
Bernard 07 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM
Guran 07 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM
Ptarmigan 07 Dec 08 - 03:44 PM
Bernard 07 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM
Bernard 07 Dec 08 - 06:37 PM
Ptarmigan 07 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM
Bernard 07 Dec 08 - 06:53 PM
Guran 08 Dec 08 - 01:17 PM
Guran 08 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM
Ptarmigan 08 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM
Ptarmigan 08 Dec 08 - 03:08 PM
Bernard 09 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM
Guran 09 Dec 08 - 08:38 AM
Bernard 09 Dec 08 - 12:17 PM
Guran 09 Dec 08 - 03:44 PM
Bernard 09 Dec 08 - 04:41 PM
Guran 10 Dec 08 - 02:47 AM
Ptarmigan 10 Dec 08 - 03:30 AM
Desert Dancer 19 Mar 09 - 01:23 AM
Anglo 19 Mar 09 - 02:04 AM
Anglo 19 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM
Guran 19 Mar 09 - 04:59 AM
The Sandman 19 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM
Guran 19 Mar 09 - 06:02 PM
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Subject: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:13 AM

Having recently bought myself a Wheatstone Tenor Treble Concertina

I'm wondering how many people out there actually play one of these larger 56 button instruments?

Also, if you do, do you use wrist straps, or not?

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:24 AM

Yes. Lachenal "New Model". I don't use wrist straps but always play sitting down with one end resting on me knee. The lower end comes in handy when playing part music with friends on treble and baritone.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

Dick you lucky swine....And I'm not even an English box player.. But te Tenor/Treble is the King of the English world...
Never saw the point in the Treble....The top end would only appeal to dogs!!
Enjoy, Hope to hear you someday.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM

Mine has wrist straps, but I've only used them on the few occasions when I've had to play standing up or walking along. Normally I play it as described above by The Snail.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 11:20 AM

I'm sure John Gall of Beamish had a tenor treble at one point. He used to own all sorts of wonderful Englishes, Boyd, Tortoiseshell ended Aeola with gold buttons, and if my memory serves me right, one with even more buttons 60+. I'm an anglo player so I might have dreamt all this!


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Alan Day
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

I think you will find a recording of Juliette Daum on U tube playing one.Ian Robb Canada,John Nixon and the late Tommy Elliott all of these artists are on English International.Not sure but Juliette may be playing Tommy Elliott's concertina on the Utube recording.
Al


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:01 PM

I'd love one... played Steve Turner's Wheatstone once, and it was a dream... almost played itself.

I have a 56 key Lachenal Edeophone, but it has the extra notes at the wrong end - they spook the local dogs, but aren't much use for anything other than R2D2 impressions!


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:37 PM

I do.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: treewind
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM

Mary Humphreys - a metal-ended octagonal Wheatstone tenor treble is her main instrument. She also has a baritone treble and a wooden ended treble.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

Ralphie, your wish is my command!

I've only had it for a week, but I love the sound so much, that I just had to post these. :-)

1 ~ Highland Laddie on Aeola TT & Irish Harp

2 ~ Salmon Tails, Jimmy Allan & Winster Gallop on Aeola TT.

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM

I was more than a bit distracted by those thick socks in juxtaposition to the open fire. Then thoughts of Mrs Brown kept drifting into my head.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: cloudstreet
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM

I have a metal-ended Wheatstone tenor treble currently in my care. Magical. I can't get over the subtlety of the upper octaves.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:06 AM

Hey lucky you cloudstreet, I wish someone would give me an old Wheatstone Baritone to look after! :-)


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:33 AM

Thanks Dick...
Nice playing from the two of you....And an open fire Yowsa!
Shame about the socks!!!!
Thank You. really enjoyed the vids
Keep on keeping on Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:01 AM

The late Joe Malley, who under hia stage name of Jack Easy was a professional concertina player for over 40 years played [amongst others] a treble/tenor. He used a neck strap in addition to wrist straps.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM

We're making payments on a Wheatstone Aeola -- a right gaudy one with the gold keys and tortoiseshell ends, about 1929 vintage. It's got 56 keys -- treble range plus 8 keys on the low end. Does that make it "tenor-treble" or "extended treble"?

It's got what look to be original wrist straps, by the way.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:32 AM

The one we're buying looks just like this one (at top), but with 56 keys, serial #31649.

(I'm glad I wrote down that link -- and was able to find the scrap of paper, I've been googling for two days trying to find that pic again!)

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM

WOW! Desert Dancer, what a wonderful collection of Concertinas you have.

I'd love to hear them being played?

I wonder, do you have any sound files of them in action, especially the Baritone & the Bass?

If the 8 buttons really are low notes, on your new instrument, then surely it must be a Tenor Treble alright?

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

Ptarmigan, those aren't mine, the first one just looks like the one I'm in the process of purchasing. I agree that's an impressive collection, though!

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Aw Shame, Becky! :-(

Please post a link to a photo of your new Concertina, once it arrives? Ta

Cheers,
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

I had a 64 button Edeophone but had to sell it. I still have my 48 button E-2 Wheatstone. Geez, I wish I still had the edeophone, even if it was too heavy for my wrists.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:15 PM

Looks like you've got a lovely box there, Dick. Hope it sounds as good as it looks.

I bought my Wheatstone treble from John Burdett (former landlord of the Albion, Loughborough, Leicestershire). He had learnt on the one that is now mine, and was then playing a beautiful Lachenal tenor treble, on eof the late ones, which had steel reeds with aluminium beds. This made it very light to handle, and so it did't need wrist straps.

Nick Burdett (no relation) plays a Holmwood tenor treble, but i've only ever heard him use it to give himself a starting note to songs. Shame!

Peter


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM

EBarnacle:
" ..... even if it was too heavy for my wrists."

Shame. Did you have wrist straps?

If so, did you not consider trying out a neck strap?

Anyway, I bet it was hard to part with?

Peter:
"Hope it sounds as good as it looks."

To be honest Peter, it's the only TT I have ever played, so I wouldn't be the best person to ask, but at the moment it sounds wonderful to me ........ until, I suppose I ever come across a better one! :-)

"Nick Burdett (no relation) plays a Holmwood tenor treble, but i've only ever heard him use it to give himself a starting note to songs. Shame!"

Gordon Bennett .. that's one expensive tuning fork! :-)


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

My metal-ended Wheatstone Tenor Treble has been set up by Steve Dickinson and has an extremely fast action. It is a beautiful instrument and I wouldn't swap it for any other.
I had the wrist straps removed and two neck-strap attachments put in by Steve. The wrist strap was a nuisance as it interfered with putting the instrument down after playing it and offered no support for the weight of the instrument.
I usually play sitting down as it is a very heavy instrument.
I play the treble wooden-ended one standing up for the Molly team ( Pig Dyke) but always use a neck strap.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM

I just by accident noticed this thread so I drop in a bit late but a couple of lines may be in place. Comments are welcome !

1.Many players fear tenor-trebles or larger instruments because of their "weight".This is often due to some misunderstandings. The weight as such has very little with *necessary* playing effort to do. A) because the effort carrying the instrument can be eliminated by resting the instrument on the knee(s) or supporting it by shoulder straps (a neckstrap is NOT a good idea)
B) The major/true/necessary playing work is related to bellows work=pumping and this effort is almost entirely related to the end area and air flow resistance - NOT to the weight !

2. The relative end area difference between common 56key tenor trebles and similar 48key trebles usually is only 10-15% and that is of minor importance while when getting to similar
64key tenor trebles (or same end size baritones) the end area may be 20-30% larger and this definitely is significant. Depends on what music is played of course.

3. The smaller the end area - the better tonal control may be achieved.

4. The larger the box size is - (and reed chamber measures, and other absorbing surfaces and compartments) - the greater quantum of high frequency overtones will be reduced and the tone will be "softer/mellower/warmer"

5. Personally I use all sizes of englishes - from miniature to bass - and I very seldom agree with various impressions people have from experiences of similar instruments because in my opinion each model always better be used for some specific purpose and it is entirely futile looking for some kind of generally "optimal" model - that simply does NOT exist! IF I would have to choose ONE single English variant it would probably be a 48key tenor treble since its playing effort (and tonal control!) hardly differs from a common treble at all, since it has got the lower notes for accompaniment and since I hardly ever miss the lacking top notes anyway.

Goran Rahm


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:19 AM

Very, very interesting Goran, many thanks for that.
If I am aver looking to buy a Baritone or Bass, all that information will, I'm sure, prove to be very useful.
Incidentally, I hadn't come across a 48 key Tenor Treble before, mine has 56 keys.
I must agree though about those squeeky high notes, I'm not a big fan.
However, now that I have a TT, if I only had a standard Treble left to play, I would REALLY miss those lovely low notes.
Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 06:29 AM

Goran,

Still wondering about that 48key tenor treble you mentioned.

What exactly is a Tenor Concertina?

Might that have only 48 keys, but still have all the low notes of a TT?

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM

Ptarmigan/ Dick,

Tenor vs Tenor-treble

There is no absolute terminology and the meaning of the terms have changed in history.What I have myself are Wheatstone 48key Aeolas from the 1930s when the 48key tenortreble was introduced by Salvation Army as a "new model" meant to be particularly suitable for SA use.(There were flatended ones made also).Those are exacly alike same types with 56 or 64 keys.According to 1935 pricelists a 43key model C-C was offered as well but I haven't seen one.

Now "Tenor".In principle and generally speaking concerning note range you expect a "tenor" to be starting from C a fifth below the low G on
the treble.To make a "tenor-treble" analogous to baritone-trebles it should be sounding exactly the same note when played like a treble and the hand in the same position.(this is not regularly true though)
A common "baritone" will sound one octave lower played like a treble.

The systematic formalist I think expects a proper "tenor" analogously to be transposing a fifth down and transpose to the key of F - not sound in the key of C

This is practised with basses! The proper "doublebass" concertina transposes 2 octaves down and mostly runs down to the G two octaves below treble G as well.And the smaller bass which usually runs down to the C one octave below tenor C IS usually transposing a fifth down and consequently an F-instrument.
(To make confusion complete those basses often are called Bb-bass and Eb-bass respectively since in concertina bands they were used to play the brass band music for Bb and Eb parts respectively)

Steve Dickinson (Wheatstone Co) has adopted this terminology and does make 48 key tenor-trebles like the SA model AND a a transposing 48 key "tenor in F" as well.

When reading old litterature and pricelists (before the extended range instruments,tenor-trebles and baritone-trebles, were introduced) you may find them speaking of "tenors" (in early days single action models) but the actual 'tuning' may not be specified.You may also find that what we now call a "treble" may have been called a "soprano"

Goran Rahm


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

PHEW Guran! It's clearly a lot more complicated than I first thought.

I guess the moral is, if one comes up for sale, it should be tried & tested to make sure it is exactly what the buyer wants.

I like the idea of that 'proper' Tenor you mentioned though, the one which plays as F instead of C.
That'd be very handy for me, as all the singers in our group seem to sing in the key of F.
Mind you, it's not hard to play in F on a standard Treble or Tenor/Treble anyway.

By the way, does anyone know, is that a Tenor/Treble Steve Turner plays?

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 02:45 PM

steve turner plays something else,it might be a bass baritone.
tenors were normally used for part playingas were baritones.Steve Dickinson used to play tenor as well as bass[not at the same time]in the NMECQ.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

No, Steve's is a treble with tenor and extra low notes... I've played it, and you can do everything a 48 key treble can do, but it goes rather low as well. Some low note buttons are different on the push than the pull to extend the lower range. Very confusing!


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Ptarmigan Dick,

You said "Mind you, it's not hard to play in F on a standard Treble or Tenor/Treble anyway".

Precisely! it only takes a little re-mapping of ones mind and the tenor treble is perfect for it. A baritone-treble better still since if used in F by playing as if in C but one buttonstep lower you will still have the habitual tenortreble range intact for the low notes.

For those who don't know it may be worth mentioning that if you want to play more permanently transposing to the key of F you can easily convert your instrument for it by changing places for all B and Bb reeds and replacing all D#s with C#s (or just play an imaginary G# - sounding C# - when the actual music asks you to play Ab (which should be sounding as the non existing Db you want to replace by that said C#)
Easy as pancake !?!
Guran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM

I tend to play in F most of the time because I used to play a Lachenal baritone which transposed - when you were playing in 'C' it was really playing in F... so when the owner wanted it back and I got a standard treble, I had to rethink! Fortunately adding the Bb in wasn't terribly difficult! I also tuned the low G# to F for that very reason.

I'll be seeing Steve Turner this evening, so I'll get the definitive answer about his box and post it later.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Bernard,

Quote:"I tend to play in F most of the time because I used to play a Lachenal baritone which transposed - when you were playing in 'C' it was really playing in F... so when the owner wanted it back and I got a standard treble, I had to rethink! Fortunately adding the Bb in wasn't terribly difficult! I also tuned the low G# to F for that very reason."

Interesting.Was it not rearranged but with original layout as an F-instrument? What note was level with the centre of the left hand thumbstrap where you normally have the C of a treble or a "normal" baritone? The low F?, or still the low C? like a "normal" baritone and you actually played it one button step down when playing in F?
What was the very lowest note of it - F below baritone G? or some lower note? not the C one octave below tenor C?? in that case it would actually have been an "Eb bass"

Guran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 03:44 PM

While you Baritone experts are handy, you may have noticed my other thread, offering my 26b Jeffries in exchange for a good Baritone EC.

Can you tell me, what are the chances of me getting my hands on such an instrument?

Are they as rare as all that?

I realize the swop idea is probably not very practical, as most folks who own & play Baritone ECs will probably not be the slightest bit interested in Anglo Concertinas. Still, it was worth a try.

How often do Baritone ECs come up for sale on eBay for example?

I know, I know ... I will just need to patient.

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM

It was thirty-odd years ago, Guran, so I cannot remember details other than it probably had around thirty six keys and had a lower range than a treble. It used to belong to Bernard Wrigley, and he referred to it as a 'baritone' when he lent it to me, and I wasn't going to argue! It may well have been a 'tenor'. Unfortunately he sold it on, so I don't know where it is now.

It had raised ebony ends like an Edeophone, but was six sided (I think... could have been eight like a Wheatstone Aeola).

It was a 'transposing instrument' because the only note that didn't play 'normally' was the B - it sounded Bb instead. As far as my music education goes that makes it an 'F' instrument... and I took Music Main at Teacher Training College, and had to study transposing orchestral instruments as part of my course - to the extent of playing from an orchestral score at sight during my finals.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:37 PM

Steve Turner's Wheatstone Aeola is a 64 key Bass/Baritone/Tenor Serial no. 32306 dating back to 1929, and the bottom four buttons on the left hand side are 'Anglo tuned' giving 68 notes in total. It is in high pitch (A = 452) and he didn't dare have it retuned in case it spoiled its response...and who can blame him?!

He bought it from someone in Doncaster, but documentation traces it back to the Salvation Army in Newcastle.

Apparently I'm the only other person to play it in public apart from Steve since he bought it...!

He did ask Colin Dipper to make him a copy, but that was twenty years ago and he's still waiting! I told him about Dick Miles' unfortunate fire which damaged his number one concertina, and this has now got him worried... as any concertina player knows, no two are exactly alike, which makes replacing a missing or damaged one well nigh impossible.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM

Thanks for that info Bernard, fascinating - so it's a Bass/Baritone/Tenor!

From what you say, when it arrived with him, those bottom four buttons on the LHS were already tuned to Anglo Tuning?
Interesting, I know about the common ~ low G# to F trick, cause I had that done to my own Treble, but I wonder how common this practice was of slightly Anglicizing an English?

I better stop this now, before I get a call from the C of E! :-)

Cheers,
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:53 PM

Apparently it was made that way, Dick. Oddball instruments were fairly commonplace in concertina bands - they weren't intended to be used as solo instruments.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 01:17 PM

Hi again guys, some more comments:

Ptarmigan,
send me a 'private' mail and I will keep you informed the day I will reduce the stock of baritones.. irresistable offers (excluding Anglos...) are welcome anytime..:-)

Bernard,you said:
"It was a 'transposing instrument' because the only note that didn't play 'normally' was the B - it sounded Bb instead"

Well, yes and no, it may be regarded as 'transposing' as long as you play a diatonic scale imaginary in C and it will sound in F but for a chromatic instrument to be "transposing" do you not expect ALL notes in this case to sound a fifth down? That means my said D# will have to sound C# instead to correspond to G# being transposed a fifth down.

So- maybe you don't remember whether it was 'completely transposing' or rather arranged only to "transpose" diatonic key of C to F?
Compare the Anglo situation - a G/D is (usually) transposing all over the keyboard a fifth down from a C/G model.

You said: "Steve Turner's Wheatstone Aeola is a 64 key Bass/Baritone/Tenor"

I don't want to sound picky about it but if you - as often is done - give different range instruments their names after the lowest note that would make it a *Bass* and nothing else.With concertinas it is a bit extra messy since we have got these differences between "normal" treble-like keyboard layout (analagous to common baritones) and the
variants that are a) transposing to other 'natural' keys than C and b)
that have keyboard variants which are based on the normal treble layout but extended either upwards (like 56,64,72 key trebles) or down-wards (like tenor-trebles or baritone-trebles, bass-trebles)
One feature that is determining is in what position the thumbstrap is located."Normally" middle C is level with the centre of the left hand thumbstrap and a "normal" baritone will have its C an octave lower at the same place.A baritone-treble is expected to have its middle C like the treble but often hasn't, since it may have the F a fifth down there instead!And there are "normal" (treble-fingered) baritones
which are extend upwards having 56,64,72..keys)
There isn't much to do about this historically settled confusion.In my world it would be preferrable to name englishes a) firstly after the lowest note b) after the total span = number of keys c) keyboard layout indicated by the note being at level with left thumbstrap d)the natural key they are playing in

If so - that "bass/baritone/tenor" might make some sense if it was either a 'bass-baritone' meaning a baritone extended downwards or a'baritone-bass'meaning a bass extended upwards considering that a "double-bass" (running down to G two octaves below the low treble G)is played like a treble and then transposing two octaves down...
Puuh....

At last, you said:
"the bottom four buttons on the left hand side are 'Anglo tuned'.."

That expression I have never heard, so it makes me curious. What do you mean by it in real?

Goran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM

Correction!, some obvious defect came into the other crap I wrote:
"Compare the Anglo situation - a G/D is (usually) transposing all over the keyboard a fifth down from a C/G model".
"Fifth" should be a fourth of course...


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM

Goran,

WOW! Thanks for all that fascinating info.

That neck strap looked like it would be very uncomfortable, after a while, but I'm glad you included it on that Video, because there are two very small holes in my Aeola TT at exactly those points, so now I know that someone had actually fitted a neck wire at one time.

At the moment I'm finding the TT very comfortable to play, so I'm not thinking of straps just now, but then perhaps that's because I find it easiest to relax, cross my legs & rest the right hand end on my top thigh. However, if &/or when I do come to need them, at least now I know who to get in touch with. :-)

Of course, once I lay my hands on a Baritone, I will be thinking seriously about the best straps.

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 03:08 PM

Goran wrote:

"send me a 'private' mail and I will keep you informed the day I will reduce the stock of baritones.. irresistable offers (excluding Anglos...) are welcome anytime..:-)"

Ahhh but what about a Wheatstone #22 {c1902} :-)

Cheers
Dick

P.S. PM on it's way!


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM

Ho hum...

If one of the notes on the 'natural rows' is a Bb instead of a B, then you get an F scale instead of a C scale...

Transposing...

QED


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 08:38 AM

Bernard,
Let us not get into arguing about it but like I said, don't you expect all keyboard notes to be transposing a specific interval up or down? In this case the diatonic C scale like you say will sound like diatonic F scale - but what about playing this "F" instrument in any other keys incorporating the note positioned G# which ought to sound C# if transposed a fifth down but will on this "bass/baritone/tenor" 'wrongly' sound D# ??

What about "anglo tuned"? Can you please explain in detail?
Goran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 12:17 PM

Guran, no argument intended, but you are very confused. The baritone in F I originally had on loan from Bernard Wrigley and Steve Turner's Bass/Baritone/Treble are not the same instrument, which you would have realised if you had re-read my posts more carefully.

I use the term 'transposing' in its original classical sense - you play a note which sounds in a different pitch from the notation. Technically a guitar transposes an octave... and I'm sorry, but I do have exam results and theses I've written which back up the fact that I know what I'm talking about. I've also taken students to Grade 8 level (Associated Board) on Organ and Guitar, and flute students to grade 5. Transposition is part of the syllabus.

Keyboard instruments do not normally transpose, except for electronic ones with that facility. That is one thing that sets apart the baritone in question... it is simple. If you play a 'C scale' on that baritone you actually get an 'F scale', and all the other notes are similarly transposing.

I don't understand what you mean by 'all keyboard instruments transposing', which they certainly do not. You need to rethink what you mean and express yourself more clearly.

If I had a clarinet in Bb and played from the music, and someone else simultaneously played a clarinet in A from the same score, the two would be a semitone different (a minor second). They would both sound differently from someone playing a concert flute which plays in C.

In just the same way, if I played that baritone from music and someone else played a standard treble, the notes would be a perfect fifth apart.

Transposing has nothing at all to do with start and finish notes, merely the note produced when playing from notation. If it's unison, the note is exactly as represented in the notation. Anything else, technically, is transposing.

A concert flute is known as a 'D' flute because early flutes only went down to D - but they did not transpose. The lowest note on my flute is B, because it has a special 'foot joint'. It still does not transpose. You finger a C, you get a C.

Recorders follow a slightly different convention which I won't go into depth about here, other than to say you have to learn different names for the same fingering. C fingering on a descant is F fingering on a treble - same fingering, different note name, but represented on the notation at actual pitch. So they do not transpose other than by octave.

If you still haven't grasped it, we shall have to agree to differ.

As for Steve's Wheatstone, the descriptions are his, not mine, and I merely passed on what he said. He has the original paperwork pertaining to the instrument, so is in the best position to say what it is. The 'Anglo tuned' notes is a convenient way of saying 'different on the pull than on the push' - which is, after all, that is what the keys on an Anglo do. As for specifics, you'll just have to ask Steve - it's his concertina!

Wheatstone called it a Bass/Baritone/Tenor, which is a straightforward way of indicating the range of notes it can play. Neither Steve nor I gave it that name, Wheatstone did, and as it dates back to 1929 it's a bit late to ask them to rename it - if, indeed, the person who thus named it is still alive...


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:44 PM

Bernard,
1) I admit I obviously was confused in the haste mixing the two instruments up.I haven't found a comfortable way sorting up quotations in this forum - yet - so my memory slipped.

2) Transposing still is a bit confused.I sympathize with this:
"I use the term 'transposing' in its original classical sense - you play a note which sounds in a different pitch from the notation"

and I use the term likewise...so we ought to find some agreement..:-)

3) You in turn got *me* wrong in this:
"I don't understand what you mean by 'all keyboard instruments transposing', which they certainly do not".

I didn't say so, I said:
"don't you expect all keyboard *notes* (not 'all keyboard *instruments*') to be transposing a specific interval up or down?"

And this means if only the Bs and Bbs have changed place the D#s will remain NOT transposing inspite all other 'keyboard notes' will be transposing a fifth down.Consequently - IF that baritone actually was completely transposing it either must have had the D#s replaced by C#s but you didn't notice, or it actually was not 'completed' as a transposing instrument.Isn't that right?

4)"Wheatstone called it a Bass/Baritone/Tenor, which is a straightforward way of indicating the range of notes it can play".

I remain confused since I have never seen Wheatstones calling anything like that and I remain a little bit doubtful since IF you would like to express the range in that to me strange way it ought to be sufficient to call it a '62(or64?) key bass' or maybe 'basstenor' since 'baritone' comes in between anyway unless it was meant to point out that it had the normal fingering of a baritone but was extended both into the bass range (likely down to c2) and into the tenor range (likely up to f3 or g3).I have seen some other instrument with that layout. How many keys did it have? - 62 or 64?
The "original paperwork" is that really from Wheatstones? Curious to know since I am a bit obsessed by historic instrument confusions...:-)
Wheatstones and other makers have changed terminology now and then,I wonder if they were a little bit confused as well...
Goran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:41 PM

Point 1: Okay, forgiven! ;o)

Point 2: Agreed.

Point 3. No, I disagree. You're inadvertently twisting the sense around. You are focussing entirely on the Bb - B part of the argument, and missing my point.

This probably came about because you were still thinking about your own post immediately above mine, and wrongly assumed I was talking about the same thing.

I said:'I tend to play in F most of the time because I used to play a Lachenal baritone which transposed - when you were playing in 'C' it was really playing in F... so when the owner wanted it back and I got a standard treble, I had to rethink! Fortunately adding the Bb in wasn't terribly difficult! I also tuned the low G# to F for that very reason.'
Play a simple tune in C (with no accidentals), then play the same tune starting one button lower on the same row. You will have to play Bb to keep to the tune, and the tune will be in F. The baritone played the same note patterns as the treble, but a fifth lower.

I was not saying that the Bb was the only note which was different (as your own post had said), merely that the tunes I was playing only required that I played a different button as I was only playing 'in C' but sounding 'in F'.

To make the swap to the treble, but still sing the songs 'in F', the adjustment to my playing was required. it would have made no sense at all to modify the instrument to my playing! Having the low G# as an F is commonplace - my other Edoephone came to me that way.


Point 4. I cannot answer in-depth questions about an instrument I do not have, and have only played once. You will have to take up your questions with the owner. I had promised to speak to Steve about the instrument, and have passed on what he said. I do not wish to discuss it further! ;o)


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:47 AM

Bernard,
Splendid! I believe we ARE approaching full agreement !

You said:
"Play a simple tune in C (with no accidentals), then play the same tune starting one button lower on the same row. You will have to play Bb to keep to the tune, and the tune will be in F. The baritone played the same note patterns as the treble, but a fifth lower".

And I said:
"In this case the diatonic C scale like you say will sound like diatonic F scale - but what about playing this "F" instrument in any other keys..."

That means full agreement on the "simple tune"="diatonic scale" issue!
***
Continued:
You say here:
" I was not saying that the Bb was the only note which was different (as your own post had said), merely that the tunes I was playing only required that I played a different button as I was only playing 'in C' but sounding 'in F'".
And you said earlier:
"It was a 'transposing instrument' because the only note that didn't play 'normally' was the B - it sounded Bb instead".

My impression now is that you may have referred to your playing on the treble in the first case and the baritone in the second and that in real the baritone may have had its D#s replaced by C#s all the same since that might have been revealed only when playing in keys where this transposing of G# to C# would have been required

Does that make sense?

Point 4. Fine! Would you mind passing these questions on to Steve as well? and report back? Not a very important issue but some historical curiosity remains

Excuses to other readers for this lengthy examination!

Goran







From: Bernard - PM
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM

It... had around thirty six keys
It was a 'transposing instrument' because the only note that didn't play 'normally' was the B - it sounded Bb instead.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:30 AM

Hey guys, no bother.

Years ago, I used to think there were only TWO kinds of Concertina, the Anglo & the English ...... how wrong can you get!

So this is all good, cause it's still kind of mind boggling to me, as I try to sort out all the many variations on the original theme.

I think it's only natural that instrument makers were constantly, and still are, trying to stay one step ahead of the game. Let's face it, if these guys weren't made like that, we'd probably all still be banging rocks together & humming, for our musical entertainment! :-)

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 01:23 AM

Have finally brought the Aeola home. Here is a full set of pics. Posted some questions/notes at concertina.net.

I really like this instrument.

~ Becky in Long Beach this week


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Anglo
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 02:04 AM

Beautiful concertina Becky.

Well done!

I'm jealous :-)

JR


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Anglo
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM

You can't just define an English by the lowest note. I've had my treble (actually a 56-key extended treble) with the low Ab (doubled by the G#) tuned down to F, my tenor-treble (56 key) low Db tuned down to a Bb. My 64-key treble-baritone remains standard with the low F. My 48-key baritone is like a 48-key treble, but an octave lower. So playing in the same register on that, compared to the treble-baritone, equivalent notes come on the opposite side.

Defining transpositions in these situations is problematical. I did once see an English tuned in A. Where you would have expected a C, you got an A, and all the 'white note' notes made a regular scale in A. It's many years ago, and I never did check how the accidentals worked. That was indeed a transposing instrument.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:59 AM

Anglo,

I can't control myself from opposing a little...

You said: "Defining transpositions in these situations is problematical. I did once see an English tuned in A. Where you would have expected a C, you got an A, and all the 'white note' notes made a regular scale in A. It's many years ago, and I never did check how the accidentals worked. That was indeed a transposing instrument."

If only judging by the "white note notes" and not knowing how the accidentals worked I can not accept it as "a transposing instrument" since for acquiring that designation ALL notes of the instrument have to be transposing by the same interval- no compromise there!

(Apart from that I principally agree - classification of concertinas is a complete mess...not least since terms have changed in history)

Goran


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

Goran,do you know any good jokes.


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Subject: RE: Who plays a Tenor Treble Concertina?
From: Guran
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:02 PM

Sure Dick, all yours !
Cheers
Goran


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