BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries

Subject: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

This is a serious question, folks.

Should convicted pedophiles and violent sexual predators, those who are on the lists of such people, be allowed in public libraries? Or should they be banned as they are from school grounds?

Children from birth through the teen years are in public libraries all day and I, as a Library Director, do not want them harmed. Right now Idaho law does not prevent "sexual predators" from coming in (although it can be made a condition of probation and that is a "sometime thing"). They are usually banned from using any computer which could access the World Wide Web or the Internet. And they could use the facilities of academic libraries, which are usually populated with adults.

They do have a right to the informational, educational, and recreational opportunities libraries provide. But does this extend to the privilege of using the public library? Does the potential harm they could do outweigh their needs for the public library?

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM

The big question is "Should known paedophiles be allowed anywhere"? A terrifically hard one to police I reckon. I guess I would prefer that they were in an open but controlled Public environment than some closed coffee shop or amusement arcade which is not adequately supervised..... difficult one to quantify Rapaire but good question.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:38 AM

If libraries (or individual library leaders) take the lead on this, they'll be crucified (disrupting their efforts). Suggest a sideways approach via victim advocacy orgs.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:39 AM

Shoot 'em all!

That's the American way - First the Fair Trial, THEN the hanging!

After all - Justice must be SEEN to be done...



No, I didn't wear a hat...

I'll let meself out...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

This is a tough one. One would hope that use of library is being used for rehabilitative purposes. I live in UK. I have a friend (library worker) who has made more than one mention of library and computer use by "perverts" and how little library staff can do in the face of blatant abuse. Public masturbation apparently is a recurrent problem.

In places where homelessness and mental health issues are higher, there is likely to be more uptake of libraries by marginalised and vulnerable people who sometimes do not behave appropriately. Government cannot pass legislation to the effect of barring any member of public from using public facilities.

I think it falls in the remit of the senior librarian or information resource manager or whatever they are called now, to approach the offender and ask them to desist or leave. If they do not then the police must be called in.

Nothing to stop any casual library user who notices inappropriate behaviour, reporting it to staff or manager. If particularly couragreous, one might approach the offender and state menacingly "Not on my watch, Twiddledick! Take it outside."

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

Are there any statistics of pedophilic abuse in public libraries? IF so what are they?

You won't find a reasonable answer by pondering possibilities only.

Pedophilia is a crime; but unless there is statistical evidence of repetitive offense, it should not be made into a present crime to have a past criminal record.

The don't forbid shoplifters from going to Walmart after they get out, do they?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:59 AM

Kids use buses, roads, footpaths, shops, trains, planes, cafes, restaurants, libraries, housing estates, toilets, launderettes, ferries, post offices etc etc ...

so do alcoholics, drug addicts, the mentally ill, people who have just completed sentences for murder, manslaughter, theft, violence, paedophilia, rape, drunk driving, etc etc ...

there is a risk in all these places from all these people.

I'd rather that a paedophile was reading a library book in public than on the internet in private ...

In fact (whimsically) perhaps they should be made to hang out in libraries where they can be more easily monitored.

The answer in my opinion is that when you take your child anywhere you must look after them properly and I'd be more careful at a bus stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM

The local branch of our (Albuquerque) public library has a fairly large -24 units or so- computer pod with internet access. It is heavily used by teens doing whatever teens do on the computer and by others. As we all know, sexual predators look like everyone else so I couldn't even venture a guess that some of the adult users might fall into that category - or that they don't. I do know that the computer stations are quite close together and the users therefore are pretty closely packed. The potential for abuse certainly exists.

Should they be banned? I could argue either side of that, but I do think that they should be identified, monitored, and their access to certain items and areas (like the computer pod and children's/teen sections) restricted.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:15 AM

The whole question is fraught with difficulty from all angles. In the UK, the principle is that, once a prison term has been served for a crime, then you have "paid your debt to society". The problem, as I understand it, with paedophilia is that the offender very often cannot see himself (and it's usually a "he") for what he actually is. The offender often states quite publicly that no crime, in his view, has been committed, and that he will continue to behave in society as he has always behaved - either overtly or covertly. This begs the question whether such people are mentally ill and should be treated as such. Prison, other than keeping them off the streets, serves little purpose. If we consider them to have (a) "paid" for any offence committed in the past, and (b) not mentally ill, then they have the right to live their life as normal people. They may well re-offend - perhaps in a much more serious way - and so the cycle can repeat itself. A dilemma indeed.

I run a university library in the UK - where the public is openly invited to use our services as part of the wider community. I would accept anyone into my library as long as they behave in a responsible and legal manner. I wouldn't know that they were on any kind of register. If they then misbehaved in the library, they would be permanently banned and reported to the police (if the offence were serious enough). There is no published register of such people over here and, in spite of the pressure from certain areas of the public, I do not believe such a public register should be kept. How is a genuinely reformed person to live a life if they have a public stigma attached to them everywhere they go?

A difficult, difficult question.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:22 AM

"Not on my watch, Twiddledick! Take it outside."

First good laugh of the day! I can't wait to actually say this to someone...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

Well, I hope you get the chance - just make sure they are twiddling their dick first... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:37 AM

I was doing a market research project for the city museum and art gallery of a town in the East Midlands (UK) about 10 years ago, and had the opportunity to talk to a lot of the staff. One of the things they told me is that most libraries, galleries etc have certain regular visitors who take an "excessive interest" in young, unaccompanied people - as soon as they came in they were monitored on CCTV, and if these people started following any kids around, the staff would either follow them very overtly, or, if contact was attempted, they would immediately ask them to leave. There was little else they could do, as the people in question were not actually breaking the law by walking around, or even by talking to the children. I don't know whether newer legislation will have further empowered staff or not. There were also junkies constantly shooting up in the toilets at the museum, something I've encountered as a regular occurance in every town centre venue I've worked in. Not really what you need, say, in the middle of panto. They'd even nick spoons from the cafe to cook the heroin in.

The problem is, as Lox pointed out, that there are kids everywhere. And paedophiles look for places where they can most easily gain access to them. The other thing to remember is that this is not a new situation, and I don't think there are any studies to demonstrate that actual ratios of paedophiles has shot up - our awareness of it has simply increased. So the danger is no greater than when we were kids, and as with all dangers, it needs to be kept in perspective. So yes, look after your kids when you're out in public, teach them about stranger danger, encourage them as a matter of safety to go places with several friends, and not to visit public toilets alone, as they are a much less attractive target in a group than a child on their own would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:47 AM

Ruth Archer:
The other thing to remember is that this is not a new situation, and I don't think there are any studies to demonstrate that actual ratios of paedophiles has shot up - our awareness of it has simply increased. So the danger is no greater than when we were kids, and as with all dangers, it needs to be kept in perspective.

That's something I've pondered as well. I recall that a gang of us - aged about 14-16 - would meet in a coffee bar after school (I'm talking about 1960 here). There was a well-known character, a much older man, who was known to us all as someone to be avoided. He used to sidle up to us (in his brown raincoat!) while we were chatting and smoking at the table and make some suggestive remark. Did we report him to the police? Run home to our parents? Run in fear? Oddly enough - no - we just told him to f**k off, and that's what he did! However, his behaviour and ours might have been very different if we'd been alone and not in such a public environment...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

Tough question....obviously, there are offenders who made one mistake and really intend to abide by laws & community standards.....and others who cannot be trusted 5 minutes out of jail. It seems unfair to apply the same restrictions to everyone, but how can you know?

I'd like to see a "ONE offense in a library" (including approaching a child or accessing porn on a computer) and you are banned from the place. Perhaps they could have implants like price readers, and libraries have a sensor/reader to alert staff? I dunno...but if 62.417% are just wanting to use the library for reasonable purposes, I'd hope a way could be found to allow them, but keep the staff aware.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:53 AM

We have had one instance where a 10-year-old was threatened with a knife (by an 18 year old) and an attempt made to push him back into the "Boys' Room". The 18 year old had been ordered previously by the Juvenile Court to stay away from children; he's now serving 5 years fixed and 10 indeterminate (parole possible after five years). This cost the Library about US $20K in security cameras (which have also provided evidence of battery against a child and purse theft and cleared another person of the charge of purse theft).

Parents SHOULD watch their kids, but they don't. Public libraries are felt to be "safe places" for children, even though librarians know this is not necessarily the case.

Idaho, like other states, maintains an on-line register of those who have been convicted of sexual crimes against youth. Whether I approve of this or not is immaterial, it is and it's on the WWW if you want to look at it.

Those on the register can, after a time, petition the courts to have their name expunged. Let's face it -- an 18 year old guy caught in the act with his 17 year old girlfriend is technically guilty of statutory rape but the chances are that both of them consented. On the other hand, a 34 year old who sexually assaults a 6 year old is guilty of a lot more than statutory rape.

(For those who are worried about privacy -- the public library is a public place and as such you have, per the US courts, little or no expectation of privacy. I could, but don't, see the history of every website visited. I could, but wouldn't, find out every book you've read and lemme tell you, you have LOUSY taste in reading.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:56 AM

Sorry. Wild italics got away from mah corral.

[fixed]

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

Huh - so you're in italiphile are yuh?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

At a pool where I work out, what was missing in kid-protection was that the lifeguards and staff were not trained in prevention: What to Do. THAT is always a good thing to agitate for-- staff development. Local wimmins shelter can probably hook you up.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM

Whether someone has been convicted or not surely isn't the issue. I would imagine that paedophiles who have been convicted of anything are probably greatly outnumbered by others who have never been convicted.

Open plan libraries, rather than the more traditional model where there was a children's library, and a separate reading room and so forth, have always struck me as a rather silly development. Presumably introduced as a penny pinching way to cut down on the number of librarians employed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:29 PM

Amos asked:

The don't forbid shoplifters from going to Walmart after they get out, do they?

No, but the gambling casinos forbid card counters! They get real mean about it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:31 PM

Stores are private property and CAN (and do) forbid "undesirables" from entering.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:41 PM

WalMart may not forbid shoplifters, but Mr. & Mrs. Van Gundy who ran the little store down the street from my house when I was a kid sure as hell did. If they caught some kid stealing and he had the nerve to show his face in the store again, they'd run his ass outta there with a broom.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:23 PM

I think ALL known and convicted paedeophiles should be on a public register, which should be accesible in as many places as possible.
No-one forces you to become a paedeophile, and there are no excuses which will make me feel pity. My pity lies with the child, and their family who have to carry on, if their child is left alive that is, and 'only' has to cope with having been raped or sexually abused!

You become a paedeophile, fine..then you lose your rights and you lose your privacy. And you know what? You damn well deserve it! I don't care if you've only abused one child, I don't care about the circumstances that led up to it, I don't care what your 'excuses' are, there are NO excuses.

Society has poured money into rehabilitating these people, probably millions and millions of pounds, but what happens to their victims? To their families? They're left with nothing! Nothing other than a dead child, or a child who has often been so badly abused, so badly raped, that a normal life becomes impossible...and society just forgets them.

Damn them to hell.

Sarah Payne, little Sarah, running across a field on her way home from a summer's walk, with her family right behind her, ran just a little ahead, through those corn fields where her Mum and family were..through the hedge, and straight into the hands of a bastard paedeophile who was just cruising around in his white van and got 'lucky'. Sarah's life was ended, and her family's hell began.

And we're worrying about banning people like these from libraries? Heck, ban them from society, for ever.

Sarah's Law should be brought in as fast as possible and it's appalling that her mother has had to campaign for so long to get the US version of 'Megan's Law' brought in. We've all lost our marbles when it comes to paedeophilia! We don't see the danger any more. We refuse to acknowledge that they're all around us, in our music industry, our toy industry, our children's clothes industry.

Hell, being banned from your local library is darn mild, compared to what I'd like to see happen to them.

And as for that bloke in our local swimming pool, the old one, who's always around when the schools are in there swimming, who sits there in his skin tight trunks, watching the children, well......I'd take him by his trunks and..............But the pool can do nothing, because he's never approached a child, just watches them...and so, of course, they'd be the ones getting into trouble.

It's very wrong to put the responsibility of 'watching' these people onto librarians or pool attendants, because if something goes wrong, they're left with a guilt that they shouldn't have to shoulder.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:36 PM

Will, the situation you describe from your youth is not dissimilar to an experience that my daughter and her friends had on the bus recently - but instead of being upset and traumatised by what happened (as they probably would have been if any one of them had been on their own and vulnerable) the little harridans collectively hounded him off the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:51 PM

Ruth - it's actually an odd sort of memory for me in that none of us seemed ever to be bothered by this man - and he was really not normal. We used to say something like, "Here's that creep Norman again" (he was called Norman) and poke fun at him. I can only suppose, with the hindsight of 50 years, that such things were perhaps less in the media and the public eye than now - and that we boys were actually less worried because we knew less. I can't ever recall telling my parents about Norman, and I used to wonder what they would have done had they - or any of the other parents known.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:53 PM

One Swallow may not make a summer - but one Lizzie makes a cuckoo.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:55 PM

PS - my daughter was 14 and her rock band was playing the fairly shitty Red Lion in Crete Hall ROad, Northfleet.

A punk got his Prince Albert out and put it on the edge of the stage.

She leapt the monitor and trod on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

LOL!!!

A very punk response, actually...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: MAG
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM

Also being a librarian, and a youth librarian at that, Rapaire's question is very close to home. The anecdotal experiences of my colleagues is similar to mine. It is a very real problem, not only for us but everywhere children congregate. Like a playground.

I have had to deal with this issue in every one of the 3 library systems I have worked in.

We gratefully get the police reports about predators and pedophiles and keep them where we can refer to them. Eventually the majority of them show up in the Library. If they are forbidden proximity to children, we upfront tell them they may not use the children's room or the computers accessible to children. We let them know we are watching them.

We remind parents that it is a public place and they must supervise their children, but the male offenders are often drawn to the 10 year old girls who are old enough to come in on their own.

I encourage parents to have frank talks with their children; this is the best way to protect them, like the anecdote above about laughing Weird Norman out of the coffee shop. Forewarned is forearmed.

We call it the connection vs protection parenting. You best protect them by talking about adults who offer treats, money, or who even make you nervous.

And this doesn't even begin to address the fact that most assaults pm children are by adults known to them.

It's a big, big problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:14 PM

Our culture certainly carries a seamy, dark side to it, that it engenders such psychosis.

Wish I had an easy answer.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:39 PM

You could brand `em on the cheek with a large "P".

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:44 PM

The reason I ask the question is because I have asked one of our State Senators if public libraries could, in the case of child sexual predators who have been convicted and must register with the police, be treated as if they were a school: off limits to the guy. The Senator (a woman and a mother) has ask that a bill be crafted to that end; I have also ask a State Representative (of the other party) if he would support such a measure; he will, because he was out of the house and I talked to his wife.

I have been told that some of the Board of Directors of the Idaho Library Association had "reservations" about such legislation.

So do I, but I cannot let the Library for which I am responsible become a hunting ground for pedophiles. We are, for better or worse and rightly or wrongly, trusted by the community and I feel that I cannot betray that trust.

The young man who had the knife pulled on him was the son of one of my employees; at the time she was talking with another employee, a grandmother. The "perp" was caught within a hour; he was recognized by the employees as he left the building and id'ed by the kid (who kept his cool remarkably well during the whole thing). I'm glad he was caught be the police; if his mother and the other staff member would have caught him I would have had to deal with a headline of "Librarians Lynch Pervert" -- not something I really want to deal with. (Well, they probably wouldn't have really gone that far, but he wouldn't have enjoyed his time before the cops arrived.)

Pedophiles in public libraries -- like the exhibitionists, frotteurs, shoe fetishists, "look up the skirt" camera users, and others like these -- are one of the things librarians prefer not to talk about. I don't care if gay meets gay at the library (as long as they don't use the place for more than that) any more than I care if straight meets straight (ditto). I care very much that children be safe there.

I'm afraid I might have to piss off my State's library association and possibly even the State Library on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:20 PM

Having the ability to stand up to "superiors" to argue one's conviction takes the sort of courage that seems to be very scarce.

All power to your elbow, Rapaire.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:45 PM

Frankly, I don't consider any of them to be my superior. Colleagues, equals -- yes. But not my superiors. And if I think something is right I'll stand up to Hell (or Heaven) for it.

It goes against all of my training and beliefs to deny someone, anyone, library service. But I will NOT let the patrons and staff become enveloped by a miasma of...well, fill in the blank.

"If that be treason, make the most of it!" -- Patrick Henry

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:17 PM

That's the stuff!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:52 PM

Pedophiles are some of the criminals least likely to be "reformed" through incarceration or various attempts at treatment, even castration. It is an addiction.

There are too many parents out there who simply aren't paying attention. I stopped going to the more popular pool at an apartment complex we lived for a couple of years because I found myself playing lifeguard while all of these young irresponsible parents were off partying with their friends, ignoring their kids in the pool. I was there with maybe one or two others watching the pool and occasionally pulling someone out. I was glad to be able to rescue a child, but it meant I couldn't relax with my children alone and enjoy their company.

Same goes for people in grocery stores who can't manage to use the seat belt on their kids in carts, and people who don't buckle their kids in when the car is moving. When the library is your domain (unlike someone else's car or the public grocery store) and the public could (correctly or not) presume you have a level of culpability if something does happen to a child, then I think you are at least entitled to attempt to protect the youthful users whose parents aren't that diligent, or the kids who have managed to slip away from their parents.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:21 AM

"And this doesn't even begin to address the fact that most assaults on children are by adults known to them."

That's something that should always be borne in mind - a child is, sadly, statistically far more at risk from famiily members or "friends" than from the dirty mac brigade. Though I realise this doesn't help you to deal with the dirty mac brigade when they're hanging round your library.

In Britain, we now have the CRB (police records) check for anyone who is working with children. But as I was discussing recently with some younger tutors who sometimes run workshops for me, the CRB only tells you about the people who have been caught. Someone not having a criminal record doesn't mean they're not a paedophile. This is particularly true of work where the tutors are often coming from the younger end of the scale. If there ARE people with unhealthy tendencies, they may simply have had less time to be caught.

We agreed that the presence of a CRB disclosure can actually give organisers, other staff, parents, and maybe even kids a false sense of security. Vigilance is still key.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:44 AM

Pedophiles in public libraries -- like the exhibitionists, frotteurs, shoe fetishists, "look up the skirt" camera users, and others like these -- are one of the things librarians prefer not to talk about.

I do hope that's not the case. Because we're mainly a university community with, on the whole, only occasional access from the public - we don't have the problems of a public library. But many of my colleagues over here, and me, have had years of public library experience. We certainly do discuss these things openly, and exchange experiences and actions taken.

On a lighter note - just for a moment: Remember the old "Brown" issue systems in public libraries? Where the book tickets were inserted into the readers' tickets and the things were filed in trays on the library counter? Yes, I know it's a long time ago... Well, one of the users in the PL where I used to work as a young librarian suddenly leant over the library counter one day, and was copiously sick into all the issue trays. That was fun.

We also had two elderly users who fought each other - like Basil Rathbone and Douglas Fairbanks Jr. - with umbrellas over a particular book they both wanted.

And now, unwillingly, back on thread again...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 04:05 AM

I'm all for reasonable safety measures to protect the vulnerable in society, but I fell some unease at the lynch mob mentality that I think I detect in places here.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:53 AM

Richard, if anyone harmed my children, or killed one of them, I'd have no qualms about taking the law into my own hands.

I am gentle in all other walks of my life, to the extreme, but compassion does not exist in me for people who hurt children, who prey on them, abuse them, sexually assault them beyond belief, rape them etc..etc....

Far from believing this weird outlook that our children are at no greater risk than they've ever been, I believe the exact opposite. Never before have paedeophiles been able to link up with each other, as they can now on the internet. Never before has their been the 'market' for photos of abused children, videos of them actually being abused, so that these people can sit in their own homes doing what they do, loving every second of the sickness and suffering they see in front of them. Never before has meeting up with kids become so easy, via Myspace or Facebook or other sites. Never before have our children been so sexualised, so early in life. And never before has society stepped back and let it all happen.

Corporate Paedeophilia arrived with the internet and all their businesses are now linked up with each other, right around the world.

Yes, all parents must be vigilant. Yes, our children don't have the freedom they once did, and part of that is because of how society has relaxed the rules and favoured the perpertrators with sympathy, rather than the victims.

IF paedophiles knew that they'd be named and shamed, have nowhere to hide, no chance of 'new life' with police protection etc, but would be hounded out, wherever they went, then perhaps it might, just might put a few of them off in the first place.

On Dartmoor, where I used to live, the convicted paedeophile in our village, a young man, had his bungalow burnt out by the 'locals', whilst he was residing in prison for abusing some of their young boys. He never returned to the village.

My daughter was taught by a man who had a camera positioned in his classroom, so that when he called girls over, asked them to reach up and get something off the shelf, the camera took shots up their skirts. He then put those photos on the internet. One of the other teachers knew this was happening, but chose to talk to his colleague privately, rather than go to the police. ((???)) He was eventually caught...and is under suicide watch these days in prison. He's always been 'attracted' to young girls, all his life, and school was the obvious place for him to end up, sadly. He'd tried to get help, apparently, but chose to stay working in schools, rather than take himself off somewhere where he couldn't be 'tempted'

His choice.

And tell me, if he had gone somewhere for help, then why the hell was he allowed to remain as a teacher????? And the kids concerned, well...they grew up pretty darn quick, when the truth came out. Learnt not to trust people, to look at everyone with 'new' eyes. How damn sad is that?

It's not the librarians who should be left with the job of monitoring dodgy people, particularly those who are convicted.   It's up to the legal people, and society itself,to ensure that public places are as safe as they can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:12 AM

Where are the statistics which demonstrate that there are more paedophiles now that a generation ago?

Is sitting at home "doing what they do" and actively interfering with children the same crime, and should it be punished in the same way?

Was there no "market" for child pornography before the internet?

"On Dartmoor, where I used to live, the convicted paedeophile in our village, a young man, had his bungalow burnt out by the 'locals', whilst he was residing in prison for abusing some of their young boys. He never returned to the village."

Are you actually advocating this as an appropriate and defensible response? And where did that man go once his house burned down? Did he just disappear, or dud he go underground and anonymously into some other community who don't know his history?

Do you soncerely believe that all of these things are recent developments, and that the number of paedophiles has increased incrementally since the introduction of the internet?

Do you think people who are mentally ill in a way that society considers unacceptable deserve some level of treatment and compassion, or should they be hounded out of every community, named and shamed, and harrassed until they do the decent thing and top themselves?

Just a few questions...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:38 AM

I believe that most paedophiles are inexorably drawn to what they do and cannot change. Furthermore, I believe that many cannot see that what they do is morally repulsive. I say this after talking to some of these men in prison (many years ago, as a prison visitor and as a member of a band who did concerts for prisoners) and out of prison after release. I am no psychologist, but I would class them as incurably mentally ill.

Our society doesn't know how to deal with people such as these. If they offend, they go to prison - which does not help to reform them or change their viewpoint. I spoke to one man who, after being released on parole, came to see the band playing in a London pub. I asked him how he was getting on and what he intended to do with himself. "Youth work" was the reply! He could not see himself as in any way flawed. In my view, he was mentally sick and not fit to be on the streets. If his identity had been published, he would be able to go nowhere. What were the reasons for this man being the way he was? Who knows - I certainly didn't.

If my son had ever been subjected to abuse as a child, I know that gut reaction would have been to grab a knife, find the perpetrator and slit the bugger's throat. But, that's not the right frame of mind in which to make legislation and associated regulations. As Big Mick aptly said in another thread (and I paraphrase): write down your angry thoughts, click the Preview box, go and play handball, and then come back and look at what you wrote... Our approaches to the paedophile problem should be handled this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:23 AM

Ipswich Journal, February 17th 1777

On Monday, a schoolmaster of Bury was committed for attempt'd rape upon a 9 year old school girl at Bury, a scholar of his.

Did anyone read Margaret Mahy's The Librarian and the Robbers? Serena Laburnum, the librarian, prevents the police from arresting the robber chief, with whom she has fallen in love, by cataloguing him and putting him on a shelf. The policemen haven't got a library ticket with them, so they can't take him out, and when they come back with a ticket, Serena has herself taken him out on long- term loan.

Perhaps that's a solution- stamp all the children "Reference Only", so no one can take them out of the library.

Flippant? OK, but as someone said, you can't tell if someone is a paedophile just by looking at them, so one function of the staff must be to keep an eye out for anyone hanging round the children, or making contact with them. OK, many places have transient staff these days, so you won't get to know which parent belongs to which kid, but creative positioning of CCTV cameras (and dummy ones) can act as a deterrent.

And in the end a library is not much different from a bookshop, a clothes shop with changing rooms, a supermarket, a playground or the road home from school.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:29 AM

"Our society doesn't know how to deal with people such as these. If they offend, they go to prison - which does not help to reform them or change their viewpoint. I spoke to one man who, after being released on parole, came to see the band playing in a London pub. I asked him how he was getting on and what he intended to do with himself. "Youth work" was the reply! He could not see himself as in any way flawed. In my view, he was mentally sick and not fit to be on the streets."

This is the crux of the problem, really. These people ARE sick, and we need some kind of legislation, IMHO, which keeps them incarcerated. Maybe permanently. At least until some kind of "cure" is found. But I am reluctant to demonise them, because I do believe that they are profoundly mentally ill.

"What were the reasons for this man being the way he was? Who knows - I certainly didn't."

A lot of studies seem to suggest that the abused become abusers - another reason I am reluctant to write them off as "evil". Who knows what they have suffered themselves?

But these are still different issues to how we deal with the abusers that are still out there. As I said earlier, I have never seen any statistics to suggest that there are proportionally more paedophiles committing sex crimes - the kind that involve personal or face-to-face contact - than ever before. So the key, as it has always been, is awareness, and vigilance. And it is really, really important to remember that any child is at greater risk in their own home, from people they know, than they are from all the kiddy-fiddling wierdos out there on the street or in cyberspace.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

They should be banned from attending any place or event where kids could be. Their computers should be linked to a central observation centre. Better still, send them to relatives of their victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:40 AM

Yes, I believe what I stated above, that our children have never been under more of a threat than they presently are. No, I do not believe that paedeophiles should be at loose in the community. Yes I believe that if they are loose, then the community should know who they are and where they are.

No, the man did not return to the village. The house was re-built, then put up for sale and sold, so I presume he got a nice amount for it, as it was a lovely bungalow, beside the river. It affected the sweet lady who used to own it before him, quite badly too, as she'd loved that house, and all had been tainted for her.

When they are 'sitting at home' staring at the internet, watching these videos, salivating over the photos, (and far more) they are creating the very market which is causing immense suffering beyond our wildest nightmares, to so many children around the world. Yes, I believe that the crime of them creating the very market they so love, is as bad as the men/women who actually go out and do what they do phsyically. Ask the policeman, the investigators, who have to sit through these terrible videos. See what they think, how they feel, what they would like to see happen to these people.

It has been in society for a very long time, probably since time began, but I truly believe that it's now more dangerous, more evil and more on the increase than ever before. If you saturate a society with sex, especially some damned dodgy stuff, create children who know how to pole dance, move their bodies in 'a sex industry way' from the age of 5 upwards, as they watch The Pussycat Dolls, or play with their Bratz dolls, then you are creating a society that sees less and less wrong with children being sexualised. It's only a very short step from there, to gooness knows where and we are several steps down that road already. We can, however, re-trace those steps.
There are some crimes which are forgivable, particularly if there is genuine sorrow and contrition. But there are others which can never be forgiven, in my book at least. Paedophilia is one of them.

I know, having lost two little souls, part of the utter desperation that goes with losing a child. It tears you apart, in the most unimaginable way, and unless you have lived through that, you cannot even begin to understand where you 'go'. To lose a child through accident or natural causes is even worse, because then, you have not only felt that child move inside you, felt it grow, as I did, but for many years, you have held them in your arms, loved them intensely, bonded with them, become part of them, and they part of you. You are left bereft and inconsolable. But to have a child emotionally, and perhaps physically, scarred for life, or to have lost a child entirely, because of a paedeophile's 'needs', is beyond any other torture in life that I can imagine, other than never knowing what exactly has happened to your child, because some of these bastards have abducted them to use as the latest 'stars' in their sick film industry, to feed this 'market' and grow rich from.

As I said, my compassion is with the children and their families, never with those who make, then take the decision to step over that line and harm them, either by doing it physically themselves, or helping to create the child pornography market they get so many thrills from.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:41 AM

A brief plea to keep focused on the question: "Should convicted pedophiles and violent sexual predators, those who are on the lists of such people, be allowed in public libraries? Or should they be banned as they are from school grounds?"

Rapaire is asking for input on an issue that directly concerns him, not on what society's general reaction to pedophiles should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM

Rapaire is asking for input on an issue that directly concerns him, not on what society's general reaction to pedophiles should be.

Acknowledged. I think society's general reaction may form a context for how a particular institution - in this instance a public library - should act.

As I've stated, in the UK there are no lists. On that basis, it would be difficult to impose any sanctions. If I were in Rapaire's position in the US and had access to such lists, then - assuming that such people were readily identifiable when they entered the library (is this possible?) then I would ensure that they were made aware of the library's knowledge of their listing. I would make them aware that they would be watched. I would make them aware that any sign of any wrongdoing would be reported to the police and that they would also be banned from further use. But I would also think twice about banning them completely, totally, out of hand - for where would society then draw the eventual line?

I hope this viewpoint is useful as one individual's take on the question - and that's enough from me on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:00 AM

Am I wrong or are not these people suffering from mental health issues? Some may be the result of having the same happen to them when they were children.

When I was a kid the man to be wary of in my neighbourhood had mild mental retardation. As an adult working in Mental Health, there was one to be careful of who had Asperger's.   

Who in their right mind would inflict pain and suffering on anyone, especially children? Understanding that these people are not quite right has gone a long way to dispel the guilt I felt when it happened to me. I understood that it was not my fault. The person was just sick.

Are we saying there is no hope of rehabilitation for these people? If indeed it is an addiction which does fall into spectrum of mental health, then there are ways to deal with it.

Be not so eager to deal out punishment. Education is what is needed for the perpetrators as well as potential vitims. Education for everyone. Know what it is and how to deal with it concientiously and justly.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:02 AM

Rapaire is right, libraries should have the same rules applied as schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

"Who in their right mind would inflict pain and suffering on anyone, especially children? Understanding that these people are not quite right has gone a long way to dispel the guilt I felt when it happened to me. I understood that it was not my fault. The person was just sick.

Are we saying there is no hope of rehabilitation for these people? If indeed it is an addiction which does fall into spectrum of mental health, then there are ways to deal with it."

People who are abused as children often feel guilt, Virginia Tam. I'm really glad you've been able to come to terms with it. :)

The problem with paedophilia, from what I've seen and read, is that there is no "cure" - at least not at the moment. Did you see the programme on Sarah's Law a few years ago? It's a comulsive activity, and I agree that it is a profound mental disorder. But the cases of recidivism, even amongst those who have finished treatment perogrammes, is extremely high. there are arguments about whether offenders can be "cured".

That's why it's the only type of "crime" which I think should be punished by a full life sentence, at least until some proven treatment method is discovered. In fact, it might be helpful if it were reclassified as a mental illness full stop, and if offenders were treated in the same way as someone, say, with psychosis would be if they committed a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

I think the courts should hand out punishment, because judges and juries have far more knowledge of the cases than any private citizen. You don't know how serious a crime might have been, you just know a name shows up on a list somewhere. You can make all the rules you want regarding private spaces, but it gets trickier in public ones because once a sentence is served and a person is released, they have rights to be in the same places as everyone else. Because 'everyone else' is in no position to take a person's rights away.

What it comes down to is protecting the children. You can make a library less of an opportunity. You can make it possible to see what's going on everywhere or make it appear as though you can. Videocameras or human eyes and a lack of secluded areas.
You can have people come in through one point where an employee can see and possibly greet them. Criminals are less likely to DO anything if someone's seen them and acknowledged them.
You can invite police who specialize in investigating child predators to come in and recommend practices and facility changes to make the place safer.

You may not only prevent known predators from hurting a child, but prevent the unknown ones from doing so. I believe prevention should be the focus and keeping convicted predators out would be more for show than for real, effective prevention. Looks good--may not work very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:07 AM

My budget (in USD) for this year is $1,500,000 (rounded). Of that, $1,100,000 is for salaries, benefits, and other personnel costs. That leaves $400,000 for materials ($150,000), utilities (electricity and stuff), repairs and maintenance, supplies, gas for the Subaru wagon that pulls the Book Wagon and does outreach to those at home, and to generally run the place.

As I mentioned, I've spent about $20,000 (over two years) for security television cameras. That money had to come from somewhere in the budget. I need auto-opening doors (about $17,000), better roof insulation and a new roof fabric ($50,000), to replace all of the lighting with new, more energy efficient units ($20,000), and looming ahead in the next few years are new furnaces and air conditioning ($150,000). And that's just the start.

We operate on a knife edge of money and the City Council only reluctantly gives us an increase from year to year. Next year I don't expect any, possibly even a small cut.

It's all well and good to say "Watch them and use CCTV" but until I get the $$$$ to install more cameras and to hire more staff (did I mention the City's hiring freeze?) we have to do the best we can with what we have.

Over 325,000 people used the Library last year. Some were ex-convicts, some pedophiles, some packing concealed weapons, some under the influence of drugs -- we have NO way of knowing unless they call attention to themselves in some way and then we can address it.

And yes, the staff is very much aware of the Sexual Offender Registry.

What I want to do is to reduce not only the risk to the children (and even adults), but also to give my staff time to better watch for problems.

When I said that librarians don't often talk about these problems I should have added "in public." We do talk about them amongst ourselves and even let other libraries in the area know of particularly egregious people.

Oh yes -- there was the drunk who was laying on the front lawn peeing up in the air, claiming to be a fountain. We called the cops, who took this particular piece of "public art" away.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

You're suggesting a life sentence for somebody who peeks up girls' skirts in a library?

Do you have no concept of degrees of seriousness?

MOST paedophile offences are pretty trivial. A skirt-peeker or flasher is very very unlikely to end up with a dismembered child buried in his garden.

My yoga teacher when I was a kid was also a Sunday school teacher and a scoutmaster. That combination in itself might have suggested something odd, and us kids certainly noticed something. Eventually he got two years in jail for feeling a kid up, but I don't recall anybody at the time thinking there was much point in locking him up. He was easy enough for even an 8-year-old to keep at arm's length.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:23 AM

I think that the little girl's mother might rip your balls off if she caught you doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:29 AM

Mother horrified at policeman showing photo of "paedophile" during kindy session


Snip from the article "He only showed the photo for a moment," said my colleague, who was present when this incident happened. "It was stuck to the inside cover of a book he carried and he opened it to show everyone. It was a photo of an old, bald man with a beard. Now, every time I see an old, bald man with a beard, I will wonder if he is the paedophile. This was very, very wrong."

How many folkies fit the old bald bearded man description?

Please read the entire article.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

Times have changed and the social matrix of the US and UK are not the same.

When I lived in Kentucky a man was arrested for abusing pre-teen boys. As he was being brought out of court from his preliminary hearing, the mother of one of the boys stepped out of the crowd and shot him "in the groin" with a .357 Magnum and then immediately surrendered herself and the gun to the police. He lived; she was booked and indicted, pleading not guilty. When I left two years later the prosecutors were still trying for find a place to try her where there was some microscopic chance that she'd be found guilty.

If the mothers of the 5 and 6 year old girls who had been raped by the psychologist at a local children's mental health clinic (it's in today's paper) had caught him (instead of the cops) I have no doubt they would have torn him apart with their bare hands.

Another reason I'd like to keep them out -- and this is true! -- is to protect them. Because of the registry people know who they are, and if one even looked crossways at a kid who was in the Library for story hour I dislike thinking of what might happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

I still don't think we should seek to justify the vigilante mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM

For someone often given to flights of pedantry, sir, I am surprised you could not see his reasoning; in a technical sense he was in fact being a fountain, at least for the moment.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

Yes, he was being a fountain, but his plumbing was in violation of the local code.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

I still don't think we should seek to justify the vigilante mentality.

I agree. Unless the criminal justice system is in a state of collapse at any given place or time, the government is unwilling or unable to fix it, and there's no other choice. But who is to make the decision as to whether that situation has arrived? I don't know. As in Rap's Kentucky story, I guess it comes down to a person deciding the situation is so bad that he or she has to act and accept whatever the consequences are.

There are a lot of things that the criminal law can't deal with. It's useless for dealing with someone who doesn't care what happens to him, or who feels such a strong need to take some particular action that the criminal consequences are a secondary consideration. That applies equally to the 9/11 suicide terrorists (or the others that are out there now); to the more extreme pedophiles, and to the lady in Kentucky with the .357.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM

"You're suggesting a life sentence for somebody who peeks up girls' skirts in a library?"

No.


That was an interesting article, Virginia Tam. Despite the fact that "father danger" has been discredited, studies still show that anywhere between 71% and 95% of victims of paedophilia knew their abuser, whether they were family, a family friend or a more casual acquaintance.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

Nor do I approve of vigilantes. But I do know that it can and has happened and a she-bear who believes she is defending her cubs won't worry about niceties.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

We also had a five year old molested by a twelve year old. They were sitting at the same computer, as the kids very often do, and the staff thought they were brothers. Finally the five year old got up and told his mother, the twelve year old had gone into the little boys' room. When he came out he was identified and ended up in juvenile custody.

The five year old was frightened and so didn't do anything that would have caused the staff to move in. No, they didn't know each other.

This was before the security cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:04 PM

I'm curious to know if 'most' public libraries have similar stories. Are there library meetings/journals/sites/newsletters...etc... which compare notes?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM

No, Bill. It's almost always oral transmission, unless it makes the local paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Rapaire, I tend to disagree with the 'solution' of banning them or anyone else on any kind of list. Recidivism or not, there may be people out there who are trying to understand and thereby overcome ther compulsion. What better place than a library to do the research?

I don't like our current turn toward 'security guards' in every conceivable format but a library may be another place that would benefit from having a uniformed guard strolling around.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

Ebbie, I don't have the money. As I noted before, it just isn't there and it isn't likely to be for some time to come. And believe me, this Library is not alone in not having money.

Besides, this would not apply to college and university libraries -- which are much more likely to have the information needed and are frequently almost exclusively by adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

I'm a library hauntee - but I rarely, if ever, have gone to college or university libraries. If I don't find something in my public library or in the Alaska State Library I look for it online and amongst friends and acquaintances.

I suspect that I'm not alone in this.

By the way, I do not have this paricular bent!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

This would not apply to state libraries, the library congress, special libraries, law libraries. Only public libraries and, I hasten to say, only in Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

Parents SHOULD watch their kids, but they don't.

Then take it up with the parents. Its THEIR abdication of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

Yes, Greg, but if the parents DON'T help, Rapaire still has the problem. There needs to be a solution for the library, not just an assigning of guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:48 PM

Don't public libraries have two separate sections? One for youths, and
one for adults? The libraries that I've been two do that, and there is
usually a lobby between the two. Make it a rule, that they can go
there, only to stay in the adult section. That is, if they were
released on parole. If they had to serve their entire sentence without
parole, then they should be banned. (If you're a little more liberal
than that, then they need to have another adult with them to supervise
until they are sure that the person can go to the library without a
worry that they'll repeat their offense. Libraries are usually secure,
anyway.
Sending criminals to prison is supposed to punish them, and once they
prove that they've learned their lesson and can re-enter society, then
they should be given a chance. They let armed robbers out of prison
who have turned out fine, and frauds as well. For pedophiles, since
this is a more serious issue:
They should be supervised for quite some time, and be occasionally left on their own (not knowing that there will be video surveillance or some sort of monitoring like that), and as soon as they show the first sign that they might repeat the offense, they'll be thrown back in jail before they can hurt anyone. If they knowingly step within
the five hundred yards without a supervisor, their supervisor (or
someone else who's spying on them) will arrest him.
You have to test them, because some of them might actually turn out
fine after prison. (The several thousand times they got the tar
badly kicked out of them in jail, would have taught them that lesson).

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: MAG
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:49 PM

Actually there was an article in one of my professional journals -- I want to say, *School Library Journal* -- but I'm really not sure. The article was specifically about the problem.

I don't have *Library Literature* available to search, but tomorrow I'll see if it's on Proquest (magazine data base).

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:39 PM

Rapaire – I'm being the devil's advocate here, but I suspect you're stepping into a real mine field in trying to get meaningful legislation passed on any sort of "banning".    There's going to be a conflict of interests if your library's philosophy is similar to our public library's here in a small Montana city.

About a decade ago our library was asked to ban "The Joy of Sex," and then, just this fall, "The Joy of Gay Sex".   The library refused to, and staunchly defended having those books on the shelf, based on freedom of speech and information. One strong argument presented in the library's favor was that parents should be the ones to monitor what their impressionable youngsters were
perusing.

It seems that not wanting to ban "books," but wanting to ban "people" who have possibly already paid their debt to society, is an intellectual conflict.   Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?   

I'm glad my library has the books it has, and I don't want to see anything banned.   I suspect the answer, as suggested by others above, is eternal vigilance, first by the parents, and then by the library staff.

And of course if I found anyone trying to molest my granddaughters I'd gladly castrate them with a rusty pocket knife.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

A lot of libraries these days, including "mine", are open warehouses -- they're cheaper to build, you see, and no one actually consults the librarians and staff who work there when the place is built. Were it possible I'd have a separate floor for youth, with the teens apart from the kids.

As for banning people -- I've already done it one a case-by-case basis, after checking with the City's legal department. One to whom I've "sent the letter" was earlier banned from the University library. There are city ordinances that prohibit such actions as disturbing the peace by playing your radio VERY loudly, urinating in public, threatening others, and things like that. This step isn't taken lightly, but after oral warnings, more oral warnings, still more oral warnings, a temporary ban...(of course, some of the things bring immediate response, like the guy who was peeing the wall in the foyer -- HE got a ride in a police car).

Even though it's a public library, there is no requirement that staff and patrons have to put up with threats, being screamed at, being hit on, and the rest of the litany that makes up a "hostile work environment."

Is it too much to ask for simple politeness and a voice kept under control? Or do we have to go back to The SILENT Era?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM

Yes, Greg, but if the parents DON'T help, Rapaire still has the problem.

No, the parents and possibly their offspring have a problem. If there IS a problam.

And they shouldn't look to or expect the Library or Rapaire to solve it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

filing systems that you work with your feet are in the early stages of development and not available everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:09 PM

I use libraries a lot. I love them! Strangely, I don't think many young people use libraries these days! I know young people don't read for pleasure as in days gone bye, and a lot of study/research can now be done via the internet. And, of course, unlike my days at school, most schools - even primary, have impressive, well-stocked libraries of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

wld...*groan*:-)

Rapaire, on a lighter note, how about wearing a sabre to work? (Or whatever is the correct word for one of your swords.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:34 PM

"...It seems that not wanting to ban "books," but wanting to ban "people" who have possibly already paid their debt to society, is an intellectual conflict."

Then count me out as an intellectual, because in my book, there *are* some crimes for which the debt you owe can never be paid off. And I think that anyone who had a sense of true horror and sorrow over what they'd done, would actually choose to stay in prison, or right away from society for the rest of their days, rather than make stamp their feet in anger because they got banned from their local library.


"Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?..."


No, it's freedom from perverts in libraries.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

"Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?..."

I meam..WHO would look at porn in a library?

Yikes!



I never realised that working in a library involved all these different problems, Rapaire. I think Sidmouth Library has led a very sheltered life, in ocmparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: semi-submersible
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:09 AM

Will Fly said:
"Our society doesn't know how to deal with people such as these. If they offend, they go to prison - which does not help to reform them or change their viewpoint."

Since the 1960s there has been some success in learning the best ways to teach sexual offenders the empathy and self-discipline skills they lacked.

A post-release process developed by Mennonites in Ontario since 1994 is one of the most successful at preventing recidivism and is being adopted in the US and UK too. Circles of Support and Accountability (COSA) are small networks of volunteers who help an offender who has completed jail and treatment, to stay on the straight and narrow while making the transition back into the real world outside prison, avoiding the habits and pitfalls that could lead to reoffending. For ordinary criminals and ordinary sex offenders, this may take a few years. Paedophiles may need to be in such a circle for life.

Risk of reoffending drops significantly (e.g "from 50% to 15%") with COSA programs. I'd call it successful if they lowered the risk to the same as background safety level for the population in general. ("Over the last six years [up to fall 2008], the [Quaker] U.K. pilot project has worked with 49 offenders. None have committed a new sexual offense.") Results vary, but are far better than just turning the person loose at the end of his/her sentence. (A 2007 Canadian study of results and rates of reoffence (pdf))

Another huge advantage of this approach is that the public doesn't have to pay much for a Circle of volunteers. An offender is expected to earn his own living and contribute to the community, instead of being detained at great public cost. This frees resources for programs that protect the public.

Google search for similar articles

A 2006 article examining in what ways vilifying sexual offenders may increase the risk to society from them (pdf)


Although I'm a mom, I don't see that banning every convicted sexual offender from entering public libraries would make our children safer. The justice system should be able to impose such conditions case-by-case, but sexual offender registries also include low-risk cases (someone who once "flashed" at a party, teenagers who fooled around with fellow teens, and have grown up in the years since). Even the people who do present a risk are probably better off spending time in a library than somewhere more private with nothing better to do.

You and your staff should be able to flag situations that concern you, though. Perhaps your legislators can put some of their staff onto finding a reasonable way to safeguard civil liberties while reporting potential dangers. It could be hard in a public space to get informed consent and transparency balanced with privacy.