BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?

Subject: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:29 AM

This has been bruising my mind since I first heard about this.

Woodburn, Oregon, is a small town where about the most exciting thing that happens every year is tulip blooming time- there are miles of fields cloaked in vivid color and hundreds of Oregonians go there to pick up the bulbs for their own future gardens. I don't know what its crime rate is but since it is never in the news it can't be high.

The town is close to Gervais, Hubbard and Monitor, other small towns no one here has ever heard of.

Woodburn is not far from my hometown, in fact, I have frequently accompanied one brother or another to the animal sales auction barn. Woodburn is surrounded by farms, the highway's most common traffic is farm tractors and hay wagons.

So. A guy plants a bomb outside a Woodburn bank (it appears that a dud or fake was placed outside another bank) and a call is made to the police.

The police and a nomb disposal expert show up, look at the bomb and take the bloody thing indoors. Why? Someone here must have some kind of idea of why.

---

story here (click)

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:18 AM

Nomb sounds about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:21 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:17 AM

Ah so thats where he went when the IRA were threatening our office one of the polis came to my radio room and had me radio out to warn others not to use the radio incase it triggered the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:43 AM

Possibly to close off radio detonation, not all systems work as well as the movies. Maybe to contain blast damage if it were to go off. They do a lot less damage to other properties and people when things go pop inside four walls.

If you wish to disarm a device, it's not like a Hollywood film, cutting a red wire or a blue wire. It could be tripped, tilt sensored or even a booby trap placed on top of the main device.

He took the right course of action. Away from the public arena (blast damage can blow windows out several streets away). Contain the risk. Then find a nice quiet area to study it and see what makes it tick.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:44 AM

Ah yes... and they wonder why there are so many Health and Safety officers around...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:03 AM

Ah but Comrac, that's what sandbags, hay bales and specially designed detonation containment boxes are for... and if it can be tripped by a tilt sensor, the steadiest hands in the world are going to be a wincy bit wobbly under those conditions... so why pick it up?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:57 AM

Sandbags may stop 9mm rounds Liz, they don't work as well around explosives.

I think he did the right thing considering it wasn't an area known for devices. During the war in Ireland, the British army ATO's knew what type or style to expect in different areas of the country as each engineer had his own style.

Public safety comes first, I doubt he would of moved a hi tech device.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

The army had plenty of practice defusing bombs in Northern Ireland. The most often used a tracked remote controlled vehical and performed "a controlled explosion" which I take to mean they fired a high speed blast of water (& air) to cut wires and provide a quenching of any detonator.

In the case of the IRA they often used Tantalum capacitors you would find in any radio. Wire them backwards, swithc on and they go bang. Perfect detonators and no one would suspect when they bought them (or stole them).

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:03 AM

Small town, small town cops, little experience with explosives, no military or police bomb experts nearby, a guy who sat through a couple of classes a few years ago....

I've handled explosives and booby traps (as we called them then). I would no more pick one up than I'd jump of house and try to fly south for the winter.

None of use know enough about the construction of the device (and the police aren't telling) to make an intelligent comment.

How much explosive was there? What kind? Was anything such as nails or rocks used for shrapnel? Were there any anti-lift or anti-movement devices? Was it radio or cell phone detonated? Was the first bomb a dud that failed in its job to bring a lot of first responders to the scene so the second could take them out? What was the motivation of the guy who built it (a "person of interest" is in police custody)?

Right now we just don't know enough to do more than guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

My immediate question is: Why wasn't the bank cleared before the brought the thing inside? There's a back door.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

The bomber was very clever and left a dud at another bank. The police assumed this was a dud too. Never assume.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:31 AM

I remember that in Juneau, Alaska, a 'suspicious object' was found indoors and taken outdoors.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:20 AM

Why get all worked up about this? We don't know all the facts, and we don't know if the 'facts' given are accurate.

There was a bomb disposal expert right there. He may have deactivated the thing before picking it up. Then they took it inside, maybe put it in the vault.

Christmas is coming and it's also time to feed the birds...

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Alice
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

tragic mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

"There was a bomb disposal expert right there. He may have deactivated the thing before picking it up. Then they took it inside, maybe put it in the vault."leenia

It exploded. It killed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:36 PM

You cannot deactivate it without get to the insides. A water jet cannon does that, so does opening the package if the bomb is in one. A bombmaker who knows the business will rig it to insure that the device is triggered if you open it.

We simply don't have enough information yet....

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

In the North of Ireland the army robots used shotgun cartridges. I agree, not a lot of info to go on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

From the Associated Press:

...Lt. Sheila Lorance of the Marion County Sheriff's Office, the lead agency in the case, did not have an explanation Sunday for why the officers took the bomb into the bank.

Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell remained in stable but critical condition Sunday at a Portland hospital as a result of the blast that killed Woodburn police Capt. Tom Tennant and Oregon State Police Senior Trooper William Hakim....

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:12 PM

OK. That is what I am saying: Why did they take it into the bank? Surely, surely, there are bomb 'blankets' and portable bunkers meant to isolate any damage.

My guess is that, as Sinsull said above, that #1: they found the dud first and assumed that this one was one also, and #2: like me, the very idea that a bomb would be set in Woodburn was beyond credible.

But then- why have a bomb expert on staff?

Incidentally, right now in downtown Juneau they are razing a hill to the ground (yep, for a parking garage), using explosives and huge front end loaders.

They use heavy-weighted blankets meant to catch debris and other flying stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:48 PM

"Bomb blankets" have been available since the 1950s.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:51 PM

The main lesson we were taught about explosives and things was: Never Assume Anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:19 PM

You know, Rap, when I began this thread I figured it would be you who knew the most about the subject. You have had an interesting career- and you ended up as a library director. Staying close to the information, eh? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

Just goes to show ya'... There are crazy people everywhere... No c ommunity is exempted...

Sad thing is that we don't have the employemnt opportunities, the social programs and the mental health services we once had and thus, more very bad behavior...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:32 PM

"OK. That is what I am saying: Why did they take it into the bank? Surely, surely, there are bomb 'blankets' and portable bunkers meant to isolate any damage."


          Yeah, that bothered me too. You would think the last place you would want the explosive would be inside the building.

          As far as "bomb blankets," in heavy construction we call them "blasting mats," and they're constructed out of old tires woven together. Much better than throwing bricks and glass all over town, which is what would happen by taking the thing inside.

          When we used to drill to shoot hillsides for a road or a rock pit or something, the one thing we dreaded was mud. If you got mud in the hole we used to load it with this stuff called "Special Gelatin." It came in big sticks and was about 70% nitro and it shot real fast. But in mud, even SG was kind of a washout.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:17 PM

Yeah, slurry would probably be the stuff of choice for that. Maybe mudcap it with a heavy clay, but you definitely wouldn't want to use it in a hole full of mud.

Ebbie, don't get me started on tombstones....

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM

Tell us about tombstones! I remembr that digging de 'oles for de bodies began your career...

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:39 AM

Yeah, but that was informal. Had to get rid to them somehow. Nothing like have a corpse around to get you into trouble.

Now, my brother was a formal, paid gravedigger and in the course of his duties he had to shoot an old horse. That was after he followed me into the business of making and setting tombstones at the monument company, though.

When the family goes to a cemetery my wife is always fascinated by the interplay between my brother and me. He'll point to a stone and say, "What is it?" and I'll say something like, "Rainbow, of course." Then we'll get into a discussion of the lasting qualities of various granites, like Rainbow, Mahogany, Georgia Pink, Barre, and Swedish Black. We'll discuss the disasterous decision to stop quarrying Swedish Black with blasting powder and to start using dynamite instead and what that means for the longevity of the stone. Blasting to a bead is important and we'll trade stories about that, including the tricks used to repair stones when a part of a letter pops off due to freezing. The question of foundation depth will come up and we'll debate the necessary auger depth. And all the while we'll be swapping stories of cemeteries and jobs we have known.

I once wrote (longhand) four pages, both sides, on the "master stone" at my burying place of the paternal side of my wife's family in Holyoke, Mass.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:47 AM

Rapaire - Are you talking about going from black powder to dynamite? That would be what, about 1880 something?

                        Is this something you're still involve in?

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:05 AM

And I didn't even know there is a difference between blasting powder and dynamite. I think I would have assumed that dynamite is encased and powder is loose. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

Nitroglycerine in its basic form is a kind of soupy liquid. It's mixed with saw-dust to make dynamite and cotton threads to make cordite, and there are other forms (smokeless powder, for instance, used to make modern rifle cartridges) but if you look at it closely, it's granular and not really a powder.

      Black powder really is a powder in it original state. It's make from charcoal to and looks very much like ground charcoal. It really is a powder.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM

Actually, black powder is still used in quarrying, especially for gravestones, countertops and other applications where you don't want the microscopic cracks that can be caused by higher speed "fracturing" explosives such a nitroglycerin, dynamite, tetral, TNT, and stuff like them there. I've never heard of slurry (ANFO) being used in quarrying, but I suppose as a heaving explosive it could be -- I don't know about the cracks it would leave in the rock, though. I knew one old quarryman who swore that the best rock came when holes were drilled, filled with water, and the rock allowed to crack off when the water froze.

Black powder contains potassium (or sodium) nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal. See a good public library for the proportions.

I'm not involved in explosives anymore; I run a public library. It's just one of the things I've done in the past.

By the way, the AP is reporting that the bomb was moved because the officers thought it was a hoax.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:56 PM

"thought it was a hoax"? Even then, why take it indoors?

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:06 PM

Well, I'm glad to see that they have arrested at least one suspect in the case, although they are not yet going on record as to any motive nor are they speculating publicly about possible accomplices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/us/16bomb.html

Salem is just a few miles down from Woodburn; I've forgotten how many but somewhere between 10 and 20, I'd say.

Earlier they said that some of the parts for the bomb were bought in Bend. Bend, the biggest town in Central Oregon, is on the other side of the Cascade Range, a goodly distance from Woodburn.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:38 PM

The last reference I saw talked about the arrest of the guy's father. They still aren't saying anything as to motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:57 PM

That is exactly what the Nomb Skull aka Nomb Squad manual says to do.

but seriously...

People percieve the banks as a cabal of criminal swindling gamblers that have robbed the Treasury of all the money we had and all the money we could hope to have for the next 30 years.
And they would be right
but the building is the wrong target.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM

"Actually, black powder is still used in quarrying, especially for gravestones, countertops and other applications..."


                   I had no idea!


                         Donuel - It would be interesting if financial greed was in fact the motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Rig, an 18-wheelers carrying black powder to the quarries in Vermont broke down or had a minor accident or something on I-95 between Richmond and DC some years ago. Because of the cargo the cops closed down the Interstate (and caused HOURS of backup) and the firefighters called in the Army explosives experts.

Now, the powder was stored for transport in well-made wooden containers and kept in plastic bags inside the containers to keep out moisture. Instead of doing the obvious (water fog from hoses drenching the doors of the trailer while they were opened so the situation inside could be assessed) the military "advisors" brought in all sorts of remote handling equipment and stuff.

Then they drenched the trailer doors while someone opened them to assess the condition of the cargo (which was fine).

Remember the old adage "Keep your powder dry?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

I had no idea black powder was used in those kinds of quantites any more. I thought it was limited to firecrackers and a few old die-hard black powder firearms buffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

It's not even used in firecrackers (unless you make your own). The powder in firecrackers is flash powder, a different concoction.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

By the way, Cowboy Action Shooters have a subset that uses cartridges loaded with black powder.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:02 PM

Center fire cartridges with a regular primer?

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:06 PM

Yup. In the usual calibers Cowboy Action Shooters shoot, including rifle and shotgun.

Subject: RE: BS: Why WOULD They Take the Bomb Inside?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:05 AM

Of course, like 38-40's and such.
    I doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference with a shotgun, except for being a lot more messy.


    Getting back to the bomb, the investigators are beginning to ask questions similar to the name of this thread. It looks like the officers had already concluded it was another fake. Which, of course, makes the original fake all that more important.