English Culture - What is it?

Subject: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

I've moved this up, from another thread, as I thought it may get lost in that one.

From Diane:

"If there were any god (however busy), he / she / it would surely have proscribed the sanctimonious Daily Mail and all the anti-intellectual, middle-England, moronic mediocrity it encapsulates. Small wonder that its readership harbours such ludicrous notions of what English culture is. "




"English culture is..............

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

greatly to be desired.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:04 PM

. . . being discussed to death in other threads.

We know who is going to say what, because they already have, at length, repeatedly.

How about giving it a rest now?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

English Culture is anything cultural that happens in England.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

A stiff upper lip and a straight bat, of course!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:16 PM

This needs to be moved to BS

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: peregrina
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

Liking to complain in the wrong place with no intention of making a difference.


The activity is rehearsed about the weather and then applied in other spheres.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:24 PM

Isn't "culture" something that grows in a Petri dish?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:24 PM

>This needs to be moved to BS

It's already IN the BS section, from which it's been deliberately taken out and repeated here. For what purpose? (Don't tell me, I can guess.)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Chris Green
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

I don't know and I'm rapidly getting to the stage where I couldn't care less! All this thread's going to do is spew up more contentious bollocks from a minority of deluded pricks who still think four-fifths of the globe is pink and we should all be strumming citterns and singing madrigals.

Rant over.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:36 PM

"English Culture is anything cultural that happens in England."

Correct.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:38 PM

>>>This needs to be moved to BS

It's already IN the BS section, from which it's been deliberately taken out and repeated here. For what purpose? (Don't tell me, I can guess.) >>>



Nope, it was mentioned in a thread in the BS section, that was all. I haven't moved the entire thread up here, just that quote because I found it interesting and realised it would merit a thread of it's own.

Put it in BS if you'd prefer, I don't mind. Strange that no-one's asked for the Norah Batty one to be moved down there, as that's nowt to do with music either, but er...there you go.

I started it because I really am interested to hear views of how different people perceive culture. Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

singing madrigals

"Fair" lizziecornish I saw sitting all alone
Feeding her habit down by Glastonbury Tor
The Gloucestershire constabulary knew not
They knew not whither she was gone
But just hoped she had.
Up and down, up and down she wandered and wandered and wandered
Till WAV hove (or hied) into view . . .

Oh jeez losing the will to . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:46 PM

English culture is...

A good export, but a bit of a paper tiger...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

Hmmmmmm....I've never fed my habit, I hang it up.

Besides, I'd never wear it at Glastonbury, too many Druids around..

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:58 PM

Fascinating! This appears to be a badger-baiting thread without a badger!

Regards

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM

In comes I, Badger, Badger is my name. I come to, er, stir the shit about English Culture at Merry Christmastime.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll get me pelt....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

Very diverse. In fact as diverse as British Culture and just about any other culture.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

Noooooo...

I vill say zis only vonce... :0)

ALL I wanted to find out is exactly WHAT English Culture is *supposed* to be. If so many people are apparently getting it wrong, then what the heck *is* it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:13 PM

Maybe, maybe it's a big secret then...like the Masons.

Aha, now I think I'm on to something!

So, it's secret, it involves badgers, petri dishes, and feeding your habit, instead of wearing it, which means that some kind of spell must be involved to make your habit come to life..

Gasp! Black magic?

Midnight Badgers & Black Magic, high up on Glastonbury Tor, with Druids and Policemen..

Who'd have thought it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:17 PM

A Place Called England

I rode out on a bright May morning like a hero in a song
Looking for a place called England trying to find where I belong
Couldn't find the old flood meadow or the house that I once knew
No trace of the little river or the garden where I grew

I saw town and I saw country, motorway and sink estate
Rich man in his rolling acres poor man still outside the gate
Retail park and Burger Kingdom, prairie field and factory farm
Run by men who think that England's just a place to park their car

But as the train pulled from the station through the wastelands of despair
From the corner of my eye a brightness filled the filthy air
Someone's sown a patch of sunflowers though the soil is sooty black
Marigolds and a few tomatoes right beside the railway track

Down behind the terraced houses in between the concrete towers
Compost heaps and scarlet runners, secret gardens full of flowers
Meeta grows her scented roses right beneath the big jets' path
Bid a fortune for her garden, Eileen turns away and laughs

Rise up George and wake up Arthur, time to rouse out from your sleep
Deck the horse with sea green ribbons, drag the old sword from the deep
Hold the line for Dave and Daniel as they tunnel through the clay
While the oak in all its glory soaks up sun for one more day

Come all you at home with freedom whatever the land that gave you birth
There's room for you both root and branch as long as you love the English earth
Room for vole and room for orchid, room for all to grow and thrive
Just less room for the fat landowner on his arse in his four-wheel drive

For England is not flag or Empire it is not money and it is not blood
It's limestone gorge and granite fell, it's Wealden clay and Severn mud
It's blackbird singing from the may tree, lark ascending through the scales
It's robin watching from your spade and English earth beneath your nails
         
So here's two cheers for a place called England, sore abused but not yet dead
A Mr Harding sort of England, hanging in there by a thread
Here's two cheers for the crazy Diggers now their hour shall come around
We shall plant the seed they saved us, common wealth and common ground

(Maggie Holland)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

Yes, I know Maggie's song well, Diane. I have it on the Albion Heart page, as you know.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

Yogurt has more active culture!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

Balti and Tikka masala

both invented in england.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:25 PM

A Place Called England on Albion Heart?
I believe she requested for it to be removed.
I see the audio clip has been taken off . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:26 PM

Eep!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:34 PM

"A Place Called England on Albion Heart?
I believe she requested for it to be removed.
I see the audio clip has been taken off . . ."



Nope, Maggie never asked for the lyrics to be removed. And I never had an audio clip of her on there. I did ask her once if she'd think about activating her songs on Myspace, so that people could play them on other pages, but she prefers to not do that. Fair enough. The only link I have on there about her, goes through to Maggie's myspace page, so that some folks may find her music for themselves. Every little helps, as they say.


"Balti and Tikka masala.."

And chips Lox, gotta have the chips, it's England, after all, chips with almost everything. A Korma for me, if you're ordering.. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM

"A Korma for me, if you're ordering.. :0) "

Please. (sorry, forgot that part)


Good manners, that used to be something England was known for, part of our culture, not sure what's happened to that though.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:56 PM

A lack of braggadocio is important.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

Blah blah blah.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:54 PM

English Culture is anything cultural that happens in England

Undefinable, bloody expensive and peculiarly managed in Essex. Oops! Shut my mouth. My bread and butter. Gonna get myself sacked.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:02 PM

For the moment, forget about England.

"A culture" is an amorphous concept, an abstraction from the totality of what goes on and is thought and said in its particular area.

Now add England back into the discussion: When we say "the English culture" we are talking about all the mess of things that make up life and thought in England, the normal way that life is lived and expected and believed to be lived in England, as opposed, say, to the German culture, which is ditto with respect to Germany, or ditto for Italy.

People often toss the word "culture" around when they mean what they think is the best of a particular culture--such as poetry, opera, painting, sculpture, etc. The things that folks think give them bragging rights. I tend to refer to this as "culchaw", don't y' know.

But "culchaw" is only a very restricted sample of the culture in which it exists.

Sooooooooo, "English culture is"--English.    Now, don't you feel enlightened?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

"...Now, don't you feel enlightened?.."

Noooooooo....lol :0)


Dave, would you define culture as being what is happening right now, in modern times, or does it also include things from the past?

Does the past also have a part to play in the culture of a nation, because it seems to me that we're not supposed to mention much of the past anymore in England. That's what gets up my nose about it all, because surely the past has to blend together with the present, in order for there to be a future.

How can future generations go forward, unless they have a shared vision of the past?


Confoosed of Sidmouth :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM

"Does the past also have a part to play in the culture of a nation, because it seems to me that we're not supposed to mention much of the past anymore in England."

That's rubbish and what's more, you know it. Typical disingenuous statement designed to elicit emotional responses and as such, best ignored - like this whole, faux-inquisitive thread, come to that.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:43 PM

Would you please stop putting words into my mouth, thinking you know everything about me and trying to twist and spin what I'm saying. I was to Dave, that's why I specifically asked him the question, whether he chooses to reply, or not, is entirely up to him, I would hope.

And if you'd like to respond to me, then please do so in the context of the thread or the question, rather than these continuous, deeply personal attacks.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

One of the problems with England is that too many people are stuck in their own vision of the past - a rose-tinted, twee and ersatz time conjured up by the likes of WAV, Lizzie Cornish and others in their quest for a bucolic Albion or some such plastic Anglo-Saxon neverland where the shit never stinks, the peasant tips his hat and the squire has ruddy cheeks and a sixpence for the little girl who lives down the lane.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:55 PM

It is not a "deeply personal attack" to question both the statement above and the motives behind this thread. All of this has been discussed to death SO many times that starting yet another thread about it seems both pointless and manipulative.

The wide-eyed innocence of "it seems to me that we're not supposed to mention much of the past anymore in England" might be a bit more convincing if it hadn't been endlessly dissected and argued in other threads, often by you. It is the sort of statement which is designed to push people's buttons. So why ressurect such faux-naive statements and topics, except in a deliberate attempt to stir the poo?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:00 PM

Culture Club were pretty good.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

Well, if you can find me having spoken about longing for an Anglo-Saxon Neverland, be my guest and print it, right here. I'm very happy with the multi cultural England of today, as well as many parts of England of the past.

What I don't understand is why, if you dare to even mention the past, you're assumed to be 'racist' and have things like you've just said, Gervase, written about you.

That's why I'm asking.

Instead of moaning about me, why not tell me what *your* view of English Culture is?

I see loads of spite, but not a great deal of actual thought about the subject in hand.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:04 PM

Wenn ich Kultur höre entsichere ich meinen Browning

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:08 PM

Oh, don't you remember, lizzie? There was that endless post about village greens, church bells and spitfires flying overhead, etc etc, which I questioned as both a chocolate-box fantasy and as not really being representative of England for all the millions of people living in urban areas. You then explained that I had to have "England running through every part of me" to understand what you were on about - the implication being that I couldn't possibly understand "your" England because I was not born here.

Of course, so many of your posts have been banned and taken down from various websites that such evidence might be hard to locate...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:15 PM

Enter the badger, stage right... What puzzles me is why the terriers hung around so long.

Regards

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:16 PM

"The wide-eyed innocence of "it seems to me that we're not supposed to mention much of the past anymore in England" might be a bit more convincing if it hadn't been endlessly dissected and argued in other threads, often by you. It is the sort of statement which is designed to push people's buttons. So why ressurect such faux-naive statements and topics, except in a deliberate attempt to stir the poo?"

Sigh.....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:17 PM

No terriers, Martin. I'm done.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM

Culture Club were pretty good.

One joins the Mile High Club by having sex in an aeroplane; one joins the Culture Club by having sex in an art gallery - preferably one in Liverpool, at least until the end of the month, so get cracking.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:30 PM

I was in Liverpool last week, as it happens. Felt no inclination to taste the sugar, so to speak - partly, perhaps, due to the wind-tunnel effect produced by the clutch of new, "signature" buildings deposited in the area. "Paradise Street", "Lime Street" and the "Canning Dock" had changed utterly from their musical versions. Mind you - sex would not have been unheard of in their original form!

Regards

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:34 PM

So everyone else is entitled to an indigenous or roots culture except the English? No wonder folk clubs are unappreciated. I relly think that might be it. All parts of Ireland seeem proud of Irish history AFAIK. Certainly the Scots are immersed in theirs. The Welsh seem to feel a pride in theirs and in Owen Glendower the last stnd against English conquest.

Is not the same true largely across Europe?

We see it demonstrated across Africa, and Asia and the Far East.

What the bloody hell is wrong that the idea of an English culture is subject to knee-jerk rubbishing?

And don't tell me I'm BNP or national front member, I'm not and I'm pro-immigration and pro the welfare state but I feel entitled to have a culture to call my own.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:59 PM

"Oh, don't you remember, lizzie? There was that endless post about village greens, church bells and spitfires flying overhead, etc etc, which I questioned as both a chocolate-box fantasy and as not really being representative of England for all the millions of people living in urban areas. You then explained that I had to have "England running through every part of me" to understand what you were on about - the implication being that I couldn't possibly understand "your" England because I was not born here.

Of course, so many of your posts have been banned and taken down from various websites that such evidence might be hard to locate..."


Triple sigh......

So *that's* what this is all about.


Spitfires flying overhead? I'm too young to remember Spitfires...(Yay, I'm still too young for something!) :0)

I mentioned Lancasters, once, as that was in Mike Harding's beautiful song 'Bomber's Moon' about his father, who was a navigator in one during the war. Spitfires? Well, one of the doctors I worked for was restoring a Spitfire with some mates of his. He used to fly them too, when he was in the RAF Aerobatic team, way back when, his name was Dr. Roworth Spurrell, used to work at St. Bartholomew's Hospital, you can check him out, but he'll have retired many moons ago now.

Village greens and church bells. You bet. I remember them, and they're still here, and still very much a part of England, as is cricket being played on the green, whether you like it or not, it still takes place, and there's nothing wrong with it either. And I love it when you go past on the train and see cricket on the village greens, just love it.

Does that make me racist? Of course it doesn't, don't be so silly.   

I can only tell you about my childhood memories. I grew up in Pinner, and back then, it was far more rural than it is today. I have no memories of city life, just as city folk have no memory of my life. But their memories, and mine, mingle together to become what England was back then, and still is, in many parts today. Cricket is still played at The Oval, I believe, in the middle of London.

However, time has moved on, and now my country has people of many colours, races and backgrounds in, and it's their country too. Do I have a problem with that? Nope.

I don't live in an inner city, and I never have. I don't much like city life, too many people, not enough space. Others thrive on it, others have no choice, just as some have no choice but to live in the country. It's not a them and us situation, it's just where people are born and raised, what feels like 'home' to them.

This chocolate box fantasy exists, I'm afraid. It exists in the very place that you adore coming to every single year, Sidmouth, and in many other towns and villages around England. That does not make ALL the people who live in small towns or villages in England, racist.

Geez, I've never heard such a load of old rubbish in my life.

Chocolate box England exists, alongside Victorian Slum England, as it does in every country in the world. There are parts of Cardiff, that I used to know as a child, where the policemen hated walking, down on the docks there, in Tiger Bay, where life was tough and rough and damned hard for many people....My grandfather ran his Ship's Chandlers business in Bute Street and later on the Docks itself, and now the Millenium Hall stands right on top of where Grandpa used to work, as the Docks has become a playground for the rich now, and a charming place to sit and drink your lattes.

Does that make all those people in Cardiff racist, because they've wiped out a landscape and probably there are now many who don't even recall how tough it once was? Of course not!

Holy Jumping Catfish, Joan, get a grip for Gawd's sake.

"You then explained that I had to have "England running through every part of me" to understand what you were on about - the implication being that I couldn't possibly understand "your" England because I was not born here."

And you didn't understand my England, and you still don't, just as I will never understand your America, the America where you grew up, because I did not live your life. I have no understanding of your memories, because they are not my memories. I have no knowledge of what parts of your past mean to you, what was important, what evokes good, or bad memories. I do not have America running through me, because I was born in England. Accident of birth, nothing more.

The implication is what you have chosen to see implicated...and as you seem to see nothing but venom in all that I write, it doesn't surprise me.

"Of course, so many of your posts have been banned and taken down from various websites that such evidence might be hard to locate..."

Various websites is just this one and the BBC, so let's not spin that. Every single post of mine, on Longdogs, was taken off....by me, no one else. And please remember that many of your posts to me were also removed by the BBC. There are two sides to this.

For your information, a while back, on the Albion Heart myspace page, I was asked to remove the English flag and replace it with a picture of a church, as the person concerned was very worried about the flag, seeing it as being linked to the BNP. I explained, over a period of many messages back and forth, that a church is far move divisive and excluding to many people in England these days, but the flag belonged to us all, and it was way past time to take that flag back from the BNP scum who have made it stand for such bad things these past years.

"It's my flag too and I want it back", as Steve Knightley sang in 'Roots'.

I will always respond to lies, Ruth. And I will always tell the truth about those lies.

I met Sir Douglas Bader, get over it.
I worked for Harley St. Surgeons, get over it.
I love village greens and cricket being played, get over it.
I love samba bands, get over it.
I love people with beautiful dark skin and wide beautiful smiles, get over it.
I love mosques and the people of the Middle East with whom I worked for years, get over it.
I love curry, get over it.
I never lived in an inner city, not my fault, get over it.


I am NOT racist, get over it.

You have NEVER understood me, get over it.

And now, back to English Culture of every colour, sound, sight and smell..with apologies for any mistakes in this long missive, but I'm too darn tired to check it through.

In short Ruth, leave the personal attacks out of this board, for Gawd's sake, and just...get....over...it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:49 AM

Why are Lizzie Cornish and WAV so desperate for attention that they invite scorn and derision upon themselves in this way ?

eric

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:14 AM

"How about giving it a rest now? "
Yeah - and let everybody crawl back into their talentless little comfort zones!
Wonder why some people can't resist attempting to prevent others from discussing what is important to them - perhaps that's English culture!
Jim Carroll