English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM

Jim, if you're going to quote from my post, don't selectively edit. You forgot the bit about 'being discussed to death in other threads'. No one is preventing anything - it's happening all around you in case you hadn't noticed. Go to one of the other zillion threads on this same topic, read Lizzie's numerous posts, and take part if you want to get into this subject, yet AGAIN - including the original one the opening quote was lifted and repeated from.

What talentless comfort zones have to do with it I've got no idea. Just sounds like a meaningless dig for the sake of it.

And your constructive contribution to this discussion is... ??

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:19 AM

Jim's constructive contribution to this discussion, from my point of view at least, is to recognise that, perhaps, suppression is going on in this thread.

Please tell me the last time I started a discussion on English culture, caitlin? I've told you the reason I moved Diane's words up here, because I wanted to know what her views, and others, actually *were* on that very subject, given the derisive comments so often written on here about other people's views of English culture.

So far, I've seen *much* personal abuse, but very, very little discussion on the actual subject matter itself. If we could get back to the original subject, it would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:52 AM

"Go to one of the other zillion threads on this same topic,"
Because some of us believe that discussions such as this are worth debating - in all their aspects.
Oddly enough, it is quite often people who raise objections to such discussions who are the first to squeal 'folk police' from here to Sun Hill.
To me, they are a breath of fresh air; an indication that people still care for the music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:14 AM

Jim - you're right; it IS worth discussing, and I apologise for my earlier burst of ill-temper. But I still stand by the sentiment of my post. There are a couple of empty vessels on this forum with whom it's impossible to have a discussion, because they don't actually listen to what other people are saying. Which is why you won't be hearing from me any more on this thread.

Chris

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:30 AM

For me a lot of it is encapsulated in the England In Particular website and the wonderful book they've produced which is "a celebration of the commonplace, the local, the vernacular and the distinctive.

Have a look here:
http://www.england-in-particular.info/

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:34 AM

Here you go:

http://www.england-in-particular.info/

That is, indeed, an excellent site and a beautiful book, leveller.

Hey, we sell that 'Apple Source' book, on their main page, in The National Trust.

:0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:35 AM

Hoho...doh..dohdoh.. LOL Oops!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:36 AM

Fingers crossed this time:

England in Particular

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

English Culture is anything cultural that is unique to England.
Morris dancing.
Traditional food, such as roast beef with gravy and spouts.
Cricket, even though we are not the only ones to play it, we inviented it, therefore it is ours.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:18 AM

Lizzie

If you want to "know" about "English" Culture I suggest you join the BNP...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

I'm sorry, but what the hell does that mean?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:24 AM

They have a very clear idea about things "English" which you might find reassuring...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

Morris-ey, your contribution here is unfair and not needed. Go away.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:41 AM

Morrissey's contribution is absolutely to the point.

Conversely, when the writer of A Place Called England found her work on a site that rhymes with "fart" festooned with BNP insignia (and a Lucy Attwood /Enid Blyton distorted view of England) she wasn't in the slightest bit "reasssured" and was forced immediately to restrict access to the stream.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:42 AM

Here's what Engkand in Particular says about The Green Man: However you see him, as a benign spirit, guardian of the female forests, symbol of new life and hope in spring, a signifier of regeneration, you will feel his presence in our ancient woods and forests such as Wyre, Wistmans and Sherwood. He has been our cultural companion for millennia, reminding us of our close relationship with nature and remains with us as a celebration of the art of the craftsmen, masons & carpenters. Rediscover the Green Man in yourself and do more than Touch Wood : make every tree a wanted tree.

How many other myths of Englishness are they perpetuating?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:04 AM

I belive that myths are a vital part of our culture and should be perpetuated. How is that any different from, say, Wordsworth's Tintern Abbey:

...For I have learned
To look on nature, not as in the hour
Of thoughtless youth; but hearing oftentimes
The still, sad music of humanity,
Nor harsh nor grating, though of ample power
To chasten and subdue. And I have felt
A presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean and the living air,
And the blue sky...

Or are you saying that Wordsworth has no place in English culture?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:19 AM

"How many other myths of Englishness are they perpetuating?"

Before commenting on one entry, perhaps you should take a look through the others. You'll find, at a quick glance, subjects as varied as: bus shelters, house names, gas holders, railings, the underground and wind farms

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:23 AM

Before commenting on one entry

Green Men / Foliate Heads are my speciality - so I always look to see what such sites have to say on the subject before proceeding any further.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:12 AM

Fair enough – I'm afraid that my own head is totally defoliated. I'm big on apples, though, so took quite a while to get past page 14.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

From Morris-ey

"Lizzie

If you want to "know" about "English" Culture I suggest you join the BNP...

They have a very clear idea about things "English" which you might find reassuring..."



So what you're saying is that if the BNP say they love something, like English churches, or history, or the landscape, whatever, then that must never again be mentioned, by anyone else, because if it's ever mentioned again, then those people MUST be racist?

And is that what you believe should happen to the English flag too, that because they have tried to make it their own, that we should let them have it?

"We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England..." (S. Knightley 'Roots')

You may be about ready to surrender England to the BNP Morris-ey, I sure as hell ain't! I will damn well remember my country in the way I choose to, to talk about it in the way I choose to, to speak of her poets, artists, pirates, her hills and vales, her coast, her lakes, her countryside, her churches, her incredible history, her palaces and castles....AND....her people of ALL colours, creeds and backgrounds...and damn the BNP to hell!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:29 PM

Good find on the Green Man, IB. You know, when you gratuitously capitalize the phrase "Touch Wood," it suddenly sounds naughty....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:28 PM

Whenever I hear the word culture I want to reach for my revolving chair. And go weeeeeeee..........
English culture is the same but with misplaced sentimentality and faster spinning.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:47 PM

Is it, perhaps, appropriate in this discussion of English culture to point out that Jane Austen was born on 16 December, 1775, and that today is the 233rd anniversary of her birth?

Don Firth

P. S. Also, happy birthday, Ludwig von Beethoven. . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:54 PM

Happy Birthday, Jane! :0) Her house, in Bath, is lovely, although she was never very happy there, didn't like the city life. She loved her garden. She had such tiny, tiny writing, and wrote secretly in any book she could find..

The Jane Austen Centre - Bath

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:25 PM

English Culture = Dog shit on the pavements.

English Heritage = White dog shit on the pavements.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:42 PM

There is a lot of offensive shit here - not from Lizzie.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K4-2laAOkI,just one example,of course thats just my subjective opinion,others like Walkabout verse,would disagree,because I chose to play some harmony on my English Concertina

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:47 PM

Can you get inoffensive shit?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:51 PM

I must say I understand less than half of this thread. White dog shit? A site that rhymes with "fart?" Endless posts about village greens?

Yet, it's funny in a sad kind of way....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:57 PM

What might be marvellous is England as the first culture free nation. Done with our reformation, civil wars, slavery, industrial revolution, class division we free ourseles of the burden of culture for a voyage of new discovery without a backward glance.
Heady stuff that.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM

Hey Lizzie,

here's an interesting aspect of English history, remnants of which still exist all over Britain.


Is it English culture just because its English history?

I don't know for sure to what degree ...

But I don't think anyone could deny the essential role of history on the development of culture ... could they? ...

... I've learned not to take anything for granted!

Plenty of stuff here for the English among you to be proud of.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:38 PM

White dog shit?

See Here for the explanation - one explanation anyway - others say the cause was a brand of worming medicine. Whatever the case, white dog shit is very much part of the mawkish nostalgia that passes for English Cultural Heritage these days and one that most English people can relate to, along with the Johnny Seven and the Party Seven, depending how old you were at the time, though I old & young enough at the time to have fun with both.

English Culture - whatever the fuck you want it to be just as long as you accept your opinion is only as valid as anyone else's.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

Sorry about that, I pressed Submit without checking the preview box...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:50 PM

Insane beard, I enjoyed it more for the error.

Funny, but in the recent TV series "life on mars", in which a modern day cop, as a result of being run over by a car, goes back in time to 1974 (or some such), there are many funny observations made, one of which is the white dog shit. Silly it might be, but it has its place.

Warts and all ... an accurate portrayal of culture has to be realistic.

Absurd? well apart from history, a culture is shaped by its environment.

Admittedly white dogshit is unlikely to have affected Englishness that much, but I remember asking about it (we had it in HK too) when I was little. "why does it turn white?" - noone knew.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:53 PM

Lets hope noone is so cheap as to attempt a weak metaphor using the above ...

... I would like to preempt such an attempt by laughing at what it might be ...

LOL

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

My prob with the whole kulture game is it assumes there are shared resonances which elicit a unified response. Now I can get quite lachrymose thinking about downtrodden Saxons or Tommys (like my grandad) going over the top in the trenches but my connection with both are wholly outside my lifetime. The chin wobbling sentiments are all mine, a human response to a human narrative but the connections are distant and tentative.
If I thought about it s'more I could get equally tearful about some poor Frenchie skewered in the mud by a rain of arrows at Agincourt or a kraut dragged from his Bavarian homestead to bleed away in Flanders mud. For many of us the chances of a line reaching back to Normandy is as likely as one to Saxony.

If folk is about the universal shit people have to take it'll ring good honest bells. If it's uz n' them nationalistic twaddle, me hearties can keep it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:22 AM

"My prob with the whole kulture game is it assumes there are shared resonances which elicit a unified response"

I'd disagree with that. I think we should celebrate the diversity and eclectic nature of our culture and fight against the uniformity that is creeping in - especialy the Americanisation and the threat to our wonderful family high street shops and small food-producers posed by the big supermarkets and ludicrous EU regulations.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:49 AM

That, if I may say so leveller, shows the poverty of ideas that contribute to an English cultural heritage. Not indigenous music, cuisine and dress (all long gone) but local goods in brown paper bags sold by rosy cheeked folk. I remember cantankerous old buggers selling overpriced stuff from shops that hardly ever opened, lacked choice when they did and was bought by people who couldn't afford the contents. A fag and a match may be a response to a local need but I'd rather that requirement never happened.
Likewise americanisation, a dubious benefit but preferable on the whole to a shiny booted third reich with its volk songs and monumental art.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:17 AM

Glueman, I really don't think your 'either/or" options match reality (well not the reality where I live). For instance, our local independent butcher was voted friendliest butcher in Yorkshire. Our local Tesco, on the other hand, has the grumpiest produce manager imaginable who, when they ran out of potatoes on Christmas Eve and several customers staged a sit-down protest, was extremely rude, especially when it was pointed out that we live in one of the most prolific potato-growing areas in the country and a phone call to a local grower would have brought a lorry load immediately: "We don't operate like that – all our buying is centralized. There won't be any potatoes now until after Christmas. What do you expect me to do about it?"

We used to be a nation of shopkeepers - now we couldn't care less about what we buy or where we buy it from.


"Likewise americanisation, a dubious benefit but preferable on the whole to a shiny booted third reich with its volk songs and monumental art."

I agree with you, but why should we accept either option? Apart from a tiny bunch of BNP nutters, I see little sign of a third reich.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

It is Attila the Stockbroker and Blyth Power loving crusties on the one hand and it is BMW driving Phil Collins and Chris Rea loving middle englanders in equal measure.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,No English connexion
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

Is it only English people who can comment on what English Culture is? I should think that, for people living in a sizeable proportion of the globe, "English Culture" is a mess of lies with which Public Schoolboy colonizers tried to replace numerous indigenous cultures.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Loadsamoney
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:15 AM

Does anyone have the words of the 1980s song, to Elgar's "Pomp and circumstance", which began

Land of piss and lager
Ere we go ere we go

and ended with

You are going to get your
F***ING HEAD KICKED IN>

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

"Does anyone have the words of the 1980s song, to Elgar's "Pomp and circumstance", which began

Land of piss and lager
Ere we go ere we go"


Strangely, no, but I have this:

A different view of England

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:46 PM

Apart from a tiny bunch of BNP nutters, I see little sign of a third reich.
Leveller, that's near enough what people said in Germany in the 1920s.

Cricket, even though we are not the only ones to play it, we inviented it, therefore it is ours.

Penguin Egg! Ooooh! Naughty naughty! I suppose the rest of the cricket palying world should be issued with licences then if they want to play. Shall we take our ball back? No, put the buggers against a wall and shoot 'em all!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Big Phil
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM

English Culture - looking after the rest of the world, and letting our old die to decrease the surplus population of our once Great Country.

England - Gone Forever.

Phil*

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM

Geez, what's eating some of you people? Why are you so filled with hatred about people feeling their English and talking about English culture?

Why do you make it sound so...so...evil?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

My message was for Steve, above.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

That "Different view of England" was Thomas Tallis as screwed up by RVW, nothing whatsoever to do with Edward Elgar (who, quite rightly, thought not a lot of Benson's imperialistic lyrics set to his tune from the trio of Ponp & Circumstance March No 1). Actually, Land of piss & lager fits a lot better.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:06 PM

Before making such knee-jerk judgements, Lizzie, it might be worth knowing who you're actually talking to:

Steve Gardham

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:12 PM

White dogshit was caused by bone content, not chalk as the Urban Dictionary would have it. They stopped adding bonemeal to dogfood after the BSE epidemic.

You got white dogshit in the US, Australia, New Zealand and Scotland too.