BS: the true Christmas holiday

Subject: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:18 AM

I'm totally aganist Politcal Correctness, it's not a happy holiday it's the season of Chirstmas but people ten to forget that.

here is a poem that someone sent me and I agree with it.


*Twas the month before Christmas*

*When all through our land,*

*Not a Christian was praying*

*Nor taking a stand.*

*See the PC Police had taken away,*

*The reason for Christmas - no one could say.*

*The children were told by their schools not to sing,*

*About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.*

*It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say*

* December 25th is just a ' Holiday '.*

*Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit*

*Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!*

*CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod*

*Something was changing, something quite odd! *

*Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa*

*In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.*

*As Targets were hanging their trees upside down*

* At Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.*

*At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears*

*You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.*

*Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty*

*Are words that were used to intimidate me.*

*Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen*

*On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !*

*At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter*

*To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.*

*And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith*

* Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace*

*The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded*

*The reason for the season, stopped before it started.*

*So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree'*

*Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.*

*Choose your words carefully, choose what you say*

*Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS ,

not Happy Holiday !*

Please, all Christians join together and

wish everyone you meet during the

holidays a

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Christ is The Reason for the Christ-mas Season!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM

'The children were told by their schools not to sing'


Why do we have to wait for the schools to lead the kids in song? Can't parents and grandparents sing with their children?

We used to sing while doing dishes (sometime). We sang around the campfire and in the car. We sang in church. When my brother had four kids at home, he got out the guitar and they all sang.

=====
Maybe you can't fix the world, but you can control your own home, your own life. If you want to sing, sing!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM

*And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith*

* Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace*



?????????????????????????????????????????
Really? Aren't you speaking it of it here?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:49 AM

but this is about people that instead happy/merry christmas. they call it happy holiday, and as a Christian, I tihnk tat some people including 'Chrsitains' are allowing them to get away with.

You know people without a backbone in other words cowards, well it's about time we as Christains stood up for our faith, the Muslims, The Jews, The Mormons do yet we as Christains are supposed to just sit back and let them say that our faith is wrong, and yet if you said that their faith was wrong you'd killed or something bad will happen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

no we're not, because someone will object to this poem.

well tough, get a life I say

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:17 AM

Faith, by definition, cannot be wrong. It is a leap across the boundary of the knowable and soluble to the land of the insoluble and the positronic POstulated Knowing that lies beyond the world of evidence.

Christmas, now, is a different question; the December 25th date, as you probably know, was not the best-guess birthdate of Jesus himself, but it was the alleged birthdate of Mithras, for example, and several other pre-CE incarnations of DIvine Presence.

So happy Mithrasmass to you.

WHile faith cannot be wrong, jamming one's faith into the lives of others certainly can be. For my part, I have received plenty of Christmas cards and wishes of happy Christmas from friends and family, many of whom are strangers to Faith, but who are people of reason, understanding and perspective. These, IMHO, are more worth defending than one or another set of icons, myths or faith-based metaphysics.


A

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:25 AM

Goatfell, with respect. No-one can "take away your faith". It's impossible to do, unless of course your faith is imperfect or weak, or dependent upon other shakey circumstantial foundations.

Because FAITH is a belief that is held onto by someone *completely and utterly*. Irrespective of whatever else is going on in their life, or in the world around them, "PC" or otherwise.

Of course there are a lot of people who have have faith in other kinds of spiritual paths apart from Christianity, and increasingly by *considered personal choice* rather than *accident of birth* these days.

But then gladly it's a free world.

Which again is why no-one else can 'take away' either *believing in*, or *practicing*, the Christian faith, from those who have true faith in Christian teachings.

In the examples you site, the core spiritual teachings of all those faiths, are probably not as far removed from Christian ones as the style and packaging may superficially suggest. Ditto Paganism.

And while my own beliefs are a little 'unconventional' in comparison to more traditional Christianity, I share much more in common with those who truly believe in living a christian life, than not.

Happy Solstice ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

The reason for Christmas - no one could say.*

Well, since christians appropriated holidays that other religions practiced for a long time previously (appropriated specifically to supplant those religions, including Diana and her Golden Bough being replaced by Mary, et al, and many northern vegetation religions being reworked) it is awfully pompous of you to suggest that the "reason for the season" is your one puny little Middle Eastern birth. Don't you think?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Alice
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

and happy Hanukkah, another holiday at this season (and another reason to say Happy Holidays along with Merry Christmas)

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

A History of Christmas:

The History of Christmas


The history of Christmas dates back over 4000 years. Many of our Christmas traditions were celebrated centuries before the Christ child was born. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires, the yule log, the giving of gifts, carnivals(parades) with floats, carolers who sing while going from house to house, the holiday feasts, and the church processions can all be traced back to the early Mesopotamians.



Many of these traditions began with the Mesopotamian celebration of New Years. The Mesopotamians believed in many gods, and as their chief god - Marduk. Each year as winter arrived it was believed that Marduk would do battle with the monsters of chaos. To assist Marduk in his struggle the Mesopotamians held a festival for the New Year. This was Zagmuk, the New Year's festival that lasted for 12 days.



The Mesopotamian king would return to the temple of Marduk and swear his faithfulness to the god. The traditions called for the king to die at the end of the year and to return with Marduk to battle at his side.


To spare their king, the Mesopotamians used the idea of a "mock" king. A criminal was chosen and dressed in royal clothes. He was given all the respect and privileges of a real king. At the end of the celebration the "mock" king was stripped of the royal clothes and slain, sparing the life of the real king.



The Persians and the Babylonians celebrated a similar festival called the Sacaea. Part of that celebration included the exchanging of places, the slaves would become the masters and the masters were to obey.



Early Europeans believed in evil spirits, witches, ghosts and trolls. As the Winter Solstice approached, with its long cold nights and short days, many people feared the sun would not return. Special rituals and celebrations were held to welcome back the sun.



In Scandinavia during the winter months the sun would disappear for many days. After thirty-five days scouts would be sent to the mountain tops to look for the return of the sun. When the first light was seen the scouts would return with the good news. A great festival would be held, called the Yuletide, and a special feast would be served around a fire burning with the Yule log. Great bonfires would also be lit to celebrate the return of the sun. In some areas people would tie apples to branches of trees to remind themselves that spring and summer would return.



The ancient Greeks held a festival similar to that of the Zagmuk/Sacaea festivals to assist their god Kronos who would battle the god Zeus and his Titans.



The Roman's celebrated their god Saturn. Their festival was called Saturnalia which began the middle of December and ended January 1st. With cries of "Jo Saturnalia!" the celebration would include masquerades in the streets, big festive meals, visiting friends, and the exchange of good-luck gifts called Strenae (lucky fruits).



The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and green trees lit with candles. Again the masters and slaves would exchange places



"Jo Saturnalia!" was a fun and festive time for the Romans, but the Christians though it an abomination to honor the pagan god. The early Christians wanted to keep the birthday of their Christ child a solemn and religious holiday, not one of cheer and merriment as was the pagan Saturnalia.



But as Christianity spread they were alarmed by the continuing celebration of pagan customs and Saturnalia among their converts. At first the Church forbid this kind of celebration. But it was to no avail. Eventually it was decided that the celebration would be tamed and made into a celebration fit for the Christian Son of God.



Some legends claim that the Christian "Christmas" celebration was invented to compete against the pagan celebrations of December. The 25th was not only sacred to the Romans but also the Persians whose religion Mithraism was one of Christianity's main rivals at that time. The Church eventually was successful in taking the merriment, lights, and gifts from the Saturanilia festival and bringing them to the celebration of Christmas.



The exact day of the Christ child's birth has never been pinpointed. Traditions say that it has been celebrated since the year 98 AD. In 137 AD the Bishop of Rome ordered the birthday of the Christ Child celebrated as a solemn feast. In 350 AD another Bishop of Rome, Julius I, choose December 25th as the observance of Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

With Faith in God
there are those who will talk about it and those that will show it.

I never discuss my beliefs, they are strong and they are very personal

I choose to let my actions and deeds talk for me.   One cannot love God however they see him or her without looking at others and their needs first. For God as we see him or her is in every person we meet and that which we do to others we do to ourselves also.

For me this time of the year is not about gifts or shopping. It is about the God I believe in and the work to do for others that have not yet been completed in my life

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:34 PM

Besides, 'freedom of speech' never has meant 'freedom from criticism'.

Happy Holidays!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Alice
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:37 PM

Seems to me it isn't very Christian to begrudge someone else saying "Happy Holidays".

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:38 PM

My vicar used to say I was the most pagan Christian he knew whereas my pagan friends say I'm the most Christian pagan they know.

Surely the true message should be tolerance, peace, understanding and love for our fellow humans? Otherwise, why would my Asian neighbours who celebrated Eid al Mubarak with a huge garden party which the Temple Elder with the Holy Book attended, have in their window now, a Christmas tree, decorations and presents?

It is true that the Christian Church 'took over' many dates in the calendar that were already festivals of one kind or another - almost nothing of our Christmas 'traditions' comes from the Bible - but when St Augustine came to Britain to spread Christianity, he was told not to destroy the old altars or sacred springs or groves, rather to sweep them clean and carefully put aside old idols, and in their place put the One God. In this spirit, we should also treat those who walk another path, with kindness and respect.

Yule and Hannukah pre-date the festival called Christmas so don't be upset if they try to steal it back.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

From HERE with more:

Astronomers have calculated that Christmas should be in June, by charting the appearance of the 'Christmas star' which the Bible says led the three Wise Men to Jesus.

They found that a bright star which appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago pinpointed the date of Christ's birth as June 17 rather than December 25.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

I like what olddude had to say. I can agree with that. The God I worship wants to be invited in - not crammed down someones throat. I'm a firm believer in the seperation of church and state. The celebration of Christmas needs to be observed in the homes and churchs of anyone who wishes to do so. But not in the public schools. Besides - whose celibration of Christmas would you want to observe? Catholic? Baptist? Methodist? Church of Christ? Mormon?.....

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:43 PM

~+~

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:00 PM

Hey Man, it's all about **LOVE** innit?

This from a second generation Hippy/Heathen/Gnostic, who believes that Lennons "Love is 'YES' the answer" is equal to any scripture, and who doesn't feel post-ironic or daft in any way about it.

All power to your elbow Olddude ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:04 PM

Oops - sorry - I left out the Epica, Episka, Epischa, you know - the American Anglican Church. Yeah - Episcopalian!!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:34 PM

My Mum always said "By your actions be you known" You should never have to proclaim to everyone what you believe it should be in your everyday life.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

CHRISTmas by definition is a celebration of the birth of Christ and in Victorian times, most people respected this celebration by attending Church to give thanks, as well as following the somewhat dubious 'traditions' that go with it. There is no doubt that pagan and possibly other influences have affected the Christmas happening each year but for those who do believe it is a time of joy and giving... as well.... as a time to give thanks for the birth of Jesus.
I personally believe that God wants each one of us to have a good time throughout life and at the end of the day we all make choices. I made mine and am happy with it........ Whatever your belief. persuasion, understanding... have a great time over Christmas.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:52 PM

I just received this "inspirational" poem a couple of days ago: This is the reply I sent back to the source:

It's one thing to be dismayed at the commercialisation of Christmas, and court decisions prohibiting displays on government property because of fuss raised by a handful of extremists. But this "inspirational poem goes to a whole other level.
Hanging a Christmas tree upside down is an odd idea that first turned up a few years ago; a Christmas tree isn't really a sacred symbol, and turning it over as a decorating gimmick isn't a sacrilige. But if that was all the further this poem wentt, I wouldn't think anything much about it.

Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !
At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.
I would challenge the author, or any of you, to produce one word that any one of these individuals has said attacking Christmas or our right to celebrate it as we please, or to show any evidence of "a clatter to eliminate Jesus" at the top, bottom or middle of the senate. This, under the guise of inspiration, is a screed of groundless accusations against people whose political stances the writer disagrees with. Have you heard the words, "You shall not bear false witness?".
May you and your families have a blessed, happy, and Christ-centered Christmas.
                                                Dean Elkins
I could have put it stronger, and more "leftist" than that, but I already was probably wasting words that the sender won't be able to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:58 PM

How about we all just fight (or whine) about it all, among ourselves of course, us friends I mean, all over again? :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

Wait a minute ~ Jesus wasn't a Saggitarius? Someone go tell Kris Kristofferson about the June birth date...

Wesley S ~ I sympathize with your spelling problem. Up in Mississippi, the hardcore Bible-belters call those folks "Whiskey-palians."

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM

PoppaG, born December 25, Jesus would not be a Saggie anyway, but a Capricornian- and you know how focused and result-driven they are.)

My daughter is a classic Capricorn. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:57 PM

Ebbie beat me to it, Kris sings "Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods, etc." One of my favs! June 17 would've made him a Gemini just like my ex-husband!

Wesley, olddude, and Dean, Megan and GS, well put.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: JennieG
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:59 PM

Each year the papers here publish 'Letters to the Editor' bemoaning the growing commercialism of Christmas, etc - I'm sure you have heard it all before. A few years ago there was one letter I have never forgotten; the writer said that, many years ago, what we now know as Christmas was a pagan festival. Since then the pagans have been trying to take it back.....and who can blame them?

Summed the whole thing up quite succinctly, I thought.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM

I thought christmas was only about getting presents you don't really want, taking them back for something you really like, and fighting with your relatives....

I had no idea it had anything to do with a cult leader born a couple of thousand years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:26 AM

In England in 1652 an act of Parliament was passed banning all Christmas celebrations - one pamphlet alone revelled in the title:

"Christmas Day, the old Heathen's Feasting Day in honour to Saturn their Idol-God, the Papists' Massing Day, taking to hearth the Heathenish customs, Popish supersitions, Ranting fashions, fearful provocations, horrible abominations committed against the Lord, and his Christ on that day and dayes following."

The Puritans were shocked at the drunkeness, games and disrespectful traditions such as the Lord of Misrule that had been popular, they disliked the decorations and such because of their pagan roots, and the Midnight Mass and celebrations because they were 'Papist' (remember, the Protestant Church was quite young and the Catholic Church was still a major power in the world). They also used the Biblical evidence that there was no reason to celebrate the birth of Christ in December, so all celebrations were to cease. Anyone attending church on December 25th expecting to hear the usual Christmas message was disappointed and the service was forced behind closed doors and kept secretly.

When the Monarchy was restored in 1660, so was Christmas but it was a more subdued celebration than previously and without the Lord of Misrule.

We could try to overthrow the Monarchy again, but somehow I don't think that's going to work this time round...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:32 AM

Yes Amergin... you may well ask yourself how a 'cult' can keep going for over 2000 years and have such a great following still.... I guess you must put it down to there being many millions of gullible people in the world. Christian belief is on the increase worldwide and maybe you could put that down to the state the world is in and its rapid decline making people want to be reliant on something other than themselves..... You say " I thought christmas was only about getting presents you don't really want, taking them back for something you really like, and fighting with your relatives...."   My personal experience of Christians having Christmas together hasn't found that, so I guess I have just co-incidentally been luckier than you. However... whatever your Christmases have been like in the past... I hope this one will be one of your happiest. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:43 AM

I've heard that some say in the spring, but according to history, the Romans were taking their census, in Israel, during their occupation of it, and for that reason, Joseph and Mary, would have left Nazareth to go to Bethlehem, to be counted..as they had to go to the towns that they were born in. The Roman census, would have put that time around September,October-early November. ...in case any one is interested.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:28 AM

to the POlitcal Corect Brigade, as they say Happy holidays,

but to the people that Celebrate Christmas, have yourselves a blessed CHRISTmas

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM

Regarding the "right" timeline.

Look, I don't care especially if the timeline is off-- for me, it's just the welcome, annual cycle of the church year where for some weeks, a particular theme of spirituality is brought to mind. It's not unlike a familiar effect from re-reading a favorite book or hearing dear grannie's life stories, periodically-- each time, new insights can come to light.

If other people are celebrating something else, that is meaningful TO THEM, that's great!


What I would hope would emerge (I can hear the diverse chorus: "But YOUR people won't LET it") would be a shared understanding and delight that all over the world, there may just be a heck of a lot of people simultaneously turning their attention to the positive, from whatever view they view it.

That's worthy of celebration!

And BTW, I am DAMN tired of getting serially confused with painfully-remembered nuns, fundies, abusers, witch burners..... ad nauseum. I'm sorry for whatever pain was dished out, but I wasn't THERE.

I'll go pay me fine!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:06 AM

Goatfell, are you somehow under the impression that Mormons aren't Christians or don't celebrate Christmas? Sorry, but that is very wrong.

You seem to imply that it would be "unchristian" to object to that "poem", but it is full of inaccuracies bvesides those already mentioned. I can't imagine Al Frankin or any of the Fondas writing a book about Kwanza or Ramadan (which isn't this time of year, anyway). I'm not a shopper, but there is Christmas stuff all over my local Lowes and Target. Maybe ending the invocation when sessions of the Senate are opened with "in Jesus' name, amen" constitutes "eliminat{ing} Jesus, in all public matter", but I don't think so. I guess I've missed any proposal to rename that dried-out remnant of pagan worship a "dream tree", although I've certainly heard "Hanukkah bush".

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

Dear Joe Offer,

Please for my sake get rid of this thread, I have been a silly boy again.

---

I can't really see a reason for closing the thread. In general, I'd say the discussion has been quite civil and interesting, considering that the subject is controversial. I think I'm going to reopen it. We like things to be peaceful here, but not if it means we have to censor anything controversial.
-Joe Offer, who lives in a household with a "solstice tree" that I insist on calling a Christmas tree-

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:42 PM

My old vicar was an advocate of the 'Christmas begins on Dec 24th' theory, and would refer to his parishoners' Christmas trees as 'Advent bushes'....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: banjoman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

Wether you like it or not (I DO) Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ - the very word means Christ's Body. If the world stopped its headlong downward spiral and began to reflect on the simple message he taught about love for ones neighbour, then this world would be a far better place. It does not matter if you do not profess any faith or have one, what is important is that message which applies to all mankind.
I received a card from one relative which says "Winter Greetings" which I find offensive. If it were not for that message I indicated above, I would send it back as it has no relevance to me
Have a great Christmas and Christ be with you all

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:59 AM

thank you

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM

If Christmas means Christ's Body, what does Easter mean?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:02 AM

I just hate Political Correctness and these idiots that try and tell people lke how to lead my life.

if people get upset about it well tough, that's life get one

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:23 AM

I received a card from one relative which says "Winter Greetings" which I find offensive.

What, you feel offended by people who greet you? Aren't other people allowed to interpret the meaning of Christmas in a different way?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:27 AM

Up to my ass in snow. WInter greetings? F**K You!

That's one way to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MaineDog
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:49 AM

Merry Christmas!!!!
If you don't like that, feel free to just scroll on, I won't take offense. Neither will I take offense of anyone uses any other (reasonably polite) greeting this time of year, for any other holiday.

So what's wrong with that?

Recently my 7-year old grandson began singing in his Christian church's youth choir. He got a big kick out of it, and told some of his friends at school. Another boy from a different denomination of Christian church told him that it was a sin to do this, because only True Christians are permitted to sing for God. If others do it, that constitutes blasphemy or cursing. Well, this created a big flap in the public school and parents had to be called in and everyone had to have disciplinary counseling, and now his spirit is troubled, and he may need more help...

It has been said that the True Church will soon have to go underground to practice, so as to avoid getting thrown to the lions, just like in the first century, and of course this will strengthen the True Church and maybe then we'll remember how to speak in tongues properly.

Of course, with over 1000 denominations out there, it's going to get pretty crowded in the subway tunnels.

I guess its just that kids in school don't have First Amendment rights like mature folkies do.

Well, enough!

Once again,
Merry Christmas to all, especially to those who like to celebrate it!
MD

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

.........& why do christians have all the best carols!?!!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

Happy Solstice!

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM

I slogged into work and parked in a garage. As I tried to cross the street to my office building, there was one tiny little path cut through the plow drifts. As I climbed through I spotted a man shovelling and asked him if he had cut the path. he was ready for an argument, expecting me to say it wasn't wide or deep enough. I said "Bless you. Merry Christmas" and he grinned. Merry Christmas all.
Mary Sunshine


The endorphins from all the shovelling have kicked in. It is only temporary.

Maine Dog - tell your grandson that he should sing long and loud. Singing itself is a blessing. Then hug him and explain that his little friend is mistaken. People all over the world sing to god in a thousand different languages and in a million different ways. It is always right and good.
Auntie SINS

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 12:34 PM

If there were one wish that I had with mudcat. It is to express the view that people in general will write or email words that they would not normally say in person. There are wonderful people here with a very diverse view of religion and beliefs. It is very important I think, that we respect what others believe.   Most of the time when we dicuss anything on mudcat, we are talking to people who we care about and regard as a friend or a potential friend. I am a christian, but I hold my belief system within my own heart. At no time would I ever think of mocking anothers belief or non belief. Good people come from all walks of life and all cultures. No one needs to try and convert others to their belief or non belief. The answer to that is within each persons own heart. I have friends that cover the spectrum of belief systems and various cultures. All are friends because inside them is a good loving person. Mocking anyone is hurtful and just is not right, we would never want that to happen to us. Please understand that I am not preaching anything. Just suggesting that the people you are talking with, are good people and even if their view of life is different, it is wrong to hurt another because of the path they choose.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Pseudolus
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:37 PM

I am a Christian and my faith has been a huge part of my life. We as Christians are encouraged to "spread the good news". What that means exactly may vary from denomonation to denomonation and in fact from Christian to Christian but for me, here is what it means. First I make no effort to hide my beliefs, I don't spout them off on a street corner, but if you ask me, I'll tell you, if you are in trouble, I offer to pray for you, if you sneeze, I say God bless you. And yes, at Christmas, I say Merry Christmas. To me, how can anyone be politically incorrect if they are being true to themselves? If someone says Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Solstice, I say thank you, same to you. They are not forcing their beliefs on me, they are wishing me well and telling me what it is in their lives that is behind those well wishes. In addition, if in a conversation you indicate that you are either looking for a church, dissappointed in your own church, or you say that you feel that something is missing in your life, I will invite you to my church. I do not preach, attempt to convert or chastise someone for non-belief, it is not my place. But if you are in need of "good news" I will offer mine. IT may not be the best analogy but it's like when you have what you think is a great recipe. You want to share it with everyone you know. If it contains meat, you wouldn't offer it to a friend who is a vegetarian. Therefore I've never invited a Rabbi to my church! Not that the good Rabbi wouldn't be welcome...

I have had some, uhhh, let's call them lively discussions here about religion. There are those with whom I have had some excellent discussions and many are folks who do not agree with me. There are also those that will berate and make fun first but I avoid them since a religious argument is about as useful as an umbrella in a hurricane.

So, wish me whatever you like and I will thank you and for me, I wish you all a most merry and blessed Christmas!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:14 PM

Well said Frank
Like you, if someone asks me I will tell them but I let people take their own path in life as they see it. But at no time is it OK to criticize another faith whatever that may be. Each have their own path

Mine works great for me and is the only constant to me in this life

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

'Twas a romantic full moon, when Pedro said, "Hey, mamacita, let's
do Weeweechu."

Oh no, not now, let's look at the moon!" said Rosita.

Oh, c'mon baby, let's you and I do Weeweechu. I love you and it's
the perfect time," Pedro begged.

"But I wanna just hold your hand and watch the moon." replied Rosita.

"Please, corazoncito, just once, do Weeweechu with me."

Rosita looked at Pedro and said, "OK, one time, we'll do Weeweechu."

Pedro grabbed his guitar and they both sang.....

"Weeweechu a Merry Christmas, Weeweechu a Merry Christmas, Weeweechu
a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 08:25 PM

Amos
that is great
and right back at ya my friend
right back at ya

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:28 AM

Corporate Christmas, where Carols have been replaced by "Kerching!".

Getting rid of CHRISTmas and turning it into 'Happy Holidays' was, of course, a brilliant move by those 'on the board' because now, they don't just have Christians celebrating Christmas, they have *everyone* celebrating 'Happy Holidays!"

Clever, huh? :0)

I'm with Goatfell and olddude on this, 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:47 AM

I wonder why that don't surprise this Pagan. (Wiccan, in case anyone but me could give a f*ck).

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

I wonder why some people think that only Christians are allowed to have a holiday that they celebrate in December. Especially considering the fact that Christians were hardly the first group to have a tradition of celebrating something in December.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MMario
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

Probably for the same reason that some people thnk Christians should NOT be allowed to celebrate a holiday in December; though oddly enough sometimes the same people support the celebration of Kwanzaa.

The truth of the matter is that for virtually any day of the year you can probably find multiple celebrations that are traditional in one culture or another. Because someone celebrates one (or more) does not invalidate the others.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 11:45 AM

I've never heard of anyone saying that Christians shouldn't celebrate a holiday in December. I've only heard (and read) people saying that Christians own December and that no other holiday should be either celebrated or recognized during this month.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

This thread being a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MMario
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

it happens Carol.   In fact, I've had people scream it at me in public places. As recently as this weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:30 PM

I'm missing something Mario. What were people screaming at you? And why?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MMario
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:39 PM

That Christmas should be abolished as a holiday because it was "fake" and "stolen" and "perpetuated a myth" and people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate it in public, etc, etc, etc.....the woman followed me for about 5 minutes shouting.

BTW - did you know the US Supreme Court takes the stance that Christmas Day (the religious holiday) just happens to occur at the same time as a completely secular holiday with the exact same name?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.

Sigh. We're not going to stop going around the planet, and it's nice to have a big hooraw int he sdead of winter evendespite the damn mercantile insanity of it all. So, let us continue to let people celebrate the season and call it whatever they want. And celebrate whomever's rising they want, even their own!


A

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

WOW! Well I've never known a Christian doing something similar at nine o' clock on a Sunday after banging on my frontdoor...
Oh yeah, actually I have. Proselytisation sucks don't it?
Welcome to 'everyone elses' world ;->

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MMario
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

The Doorbangers are equal opputunity annoyers; don't forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:17 PM

That woman's behavior was certainly bizarre. I've never heard of anything like that. There's no more excuse for what she was doing than there is for the people in this thread (and elsewhere) who are saying that Christmas should be the only holiday that is celebrated and recognized during December.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: MMario
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

100% agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

In every religion, every culture, and in everyday life
there are people who are nuts and have no other reason in life other than to annoy other people. That however is not the norm or an example of Christian behavior or any reasonable behavior for that matter from anyone.

And for those who feel the need to knock on other people's door is simply a decision those people choose to make. But for me it is not an example of good manners or good behavior or "good Christian". They all preach, talk the talk, but believe me walking the walk as Christ did is far harder. Do you ever see the Salvation Army people shoving anything on others. When a poor family needs warm cloths for their kids , they don't ask if you are a christian first. Nor did Mother Theresa in Calcutta taking care of the poorest and most sick.

No one needs to try and force God onto another person. God is quite capable of showing himself to those who choose to see him. However those who wish not to, that is ok also. The free will thing is quite important I think. No one is more annoyed then the door kockers or the crowd shouters, to me that is not what God is about.   And for those who do not believe, that is your chosen path and nothing wrong with that either. Simply allow others to celebrate how they see fit without and I repeat forcing their belief or values on you. Nor should you critize those who consider it a Holy day. Respect for others ,   no matter what path they walk. That is the way it is suppose to be

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM

"Festivus for the rest of us"

I am getting out the aluminum pole and making a list of complaints about all you people.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

We cross posted old dude. that was not a comment on your post.

Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: olddude
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:08 PM

Mary you are a wonderful person
no offense was ever taken, nor was it by anyone on this thread. One thing about Mudcat, there is an abundance of diverse folks but for the most part, all are very good people

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 08:23 AM

I just put this on because I tihnk that we might of missed the real meaning of Christmas, I have left another thread becasue I was just a stupid boy.

I don't mind how people have their Christmas holidays, but please remember that it started off as a Christian festival?

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 08:24 AM

I mean I don't come and hijack the other faiths at this time so please don't it with ours either.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: number 6
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 09:30 AM

HAPPY HOLIDAYS to Everyone (and I mean everyone) here at the Cat!!!

sincerely,
biLL

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 09:30 AM

Enjoy Christmas.
I'm busy burning some glazed ham at the moment!
Pity the fate of the poor mincemeat tart which is next on my list...
Time for another sherry before Papa arrives.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:46 AM

The December festival actually didn't start off as a Christmas festival. It was a solstice festival long before it was a Christmas festival.

Subject: RE: BS: the true Christmas holiday
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:51 AM

Hanukkah came before Christmas as a December festival as well. I guess it could be said that it was the Christians who hijacked other religions' holidays rather than the other way around.